Maybe it'll be a lesson to all the white knights defending developers.
If the community doesn't unite to help the developers do the right thing, they'll almost always do the "popular" thing = copy a popular MMO.
GW2 also promised wonders, but between alpha and launch, they changed the game completely from what it was meant to be, to a WoW-hybrid.
Then ARR did the same mistake.
All MMOs now seem to launch with Dailies disguised as "Dynamic Events", and use that as an excuse to have less actual content.
Hilarious.
I actually have a good feeling about WildStar, because although their cartoon style isn't my favorite, it's pretty okay, and their mindset seems to be in the right direction for the most part.
Someone just hire me - I'll turn your MMO project into a real MMO
Thanks alot for linking my documents here, markarius
So now that the game has launched, do you guys still think its gameplay is just as it should?
Are you still even playing the game?
The beta didn't look promising to me - I played all classes, checked all passive and active skills until it was clear to me that the game had no depth - just eye candy.
It led me to share my concerns in the forums, but any thread stating the game needed change was buried by zealots.
Now that it's launched, it's clear that SE didn't give us a second FFXI, not even a FFXIV - it's yet another beautiful WoW clone, just like Rift and SWTOR.
With all their promises, SE just gave us a beautiful, artistically detailed game with alot of appeal to nostalgia and fan service, yet with a combat system all about preparation and memorization, but zero player skill - it's a gear/level check since level 1.
The global is still way too long (it's not "strategic" it's just slow), and having an instant off-GCD silence or stun that doesn't silence or stun instantly because of an overly flashy animation annoys the hell out of me. Mechanically, some of the classes are interesting i.e. Monk while others are completely brainless i.e. Paladin. There's not very much depth to combat, and there is literally more customization for our mounts than there is for the playable classes in the game.
Overall, I think your comment about SE giving us a beautiful game with a bunch of fan service is pretty much spot on. The game is extremely average, which is not usually something I'd willingly celebrate, but in this case I feel like some celebration is called for seeing how this all started with 1.0. I'm not sure why someone would play this game if they weren't big fans of the franchise as there's MMO's on the market that do everything this game does, but they do it better.
There's not very much depth to combat, and there is literally more customization for our mounts than there is for the playable classes in the game.
Hilarious because its completely true.
What kind of backwards thinking is this?
The mount is not "a class". The mount has access to three "classes", with each being stripped down versions of the playable classes. The fact players have two choices for "healer" and "defender" as well as four choices for "attacker" completely annihilates any customization you can give to your horsebird.
In other words; haters be hating, business as usual.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Together with the fact that each game area is usually designed for a specific range of levels, and the existence of instanced content you can remotely access through features like Duty/Dungeon Finder, you see dead Open Worlds, since a couple weeks into launch 9 out of 10 players are either in an instance or in an end game area for the majority of their play time.
Two primary reasons this doesn't make sense:
1. Zones have multiple level ranges in them so the very first sentence is a flat out lie.
2. FATEs are by far the most common pass time in the game, are extremely social and ensures there is always groups of people running around. The only caveat I would say is it seems some zones are more popular than others for FATEs.
While I was somewhat negative in my last post to FFXIV, I'd have to say that it's apparent that a lot of the negative assertions here are from people who haven't played the game for any length of time -- or at least played it wrong (in some cases, it seems like one just read tool tips and made assertions thereof). There is always room for improvement, and we'll just have to wait and see with the first patch if they're heading in that direction (though the information given is already promising).
Once you hit a high understanding of the game's mechanics and such, you start to realize how fine a lot of the systems are under the conditions they made them for. Tanks are perhaps the weakest part of this game, and are receiving a lot of updates (on the warrior side, at least) to be improved. Monks are perhaps the most interesting with multiple rotations, buff rotations, stun, DoT, etc. rotations whereby you're switching your position every few seconds and on the fly while deciding the best rotation to use next based on the enemy's position, the enemy's attack pattern, your tank, your healer and many other factors. The speed of the monk is also quite quick when fully buffed, and the duration is rumored to be increased so that the buff falls less often or is increased to make up for it falling.
There is also a problem with melee DPS being limited to Lances and Fists -- not everyone wants to use a lance or fist for melee (and the monk is an incredibly hard class to master and play as such consistently) -- and they need to add more choices in that fashion. Though to say that the GDC isn't balanced or that you don't have to think of when it's a good time to use something simply because you know a stun is needed to save the party (or some other ability) is just ignorance to the scene (as is resource management, especially on the Warrior's side). That's how the game was developed, and not everything needs to be a fast-paced copy of the "norm" people expect. When we start to leave our bias behind and simply take games as new additions to our library with their own systems is when we'll see less needless "hate" simply because one does not understand. If by then it's still not someone's ideal, then they can just find another game that is. When we want a game that has the same combat as everything else, and then chastise it for being a "same old" themepark, it really sends a mixed message and I can't help but to think said people are a bit confused (we're still in the "DPS must always focus on DPS and never be a benefit to the party or do things like crowd control or preparation / expectation / duties" thought process as a whole when we're thinking the above).
I personally would've liked to see a personal "limit break" meter whereby you could employ spectacular attacks (similar to TP build in FFXI with 100% being level 1 and 300% being level 3) in addition to some basic attacks and auto attacks. Perhaps have the attacks be a sort of "Mystic Arte" spectic from Tales with long animations that make up for being such by being incredibly powerful. Perhaps the GDC increased a bit (along with making it so auto-attacks strike more often to fill in waiting gaps), or decreased (as I'm not a fan of 2.5 myself) to make each attack more "meaningful" or "entertaining" respectively. Though to say the current one doesn't work simply because I think it could be better is folly. To not play because of it would be a personal choice, though I'm a fairly "take what I can get" individual and only play games to have fun anyway (play to have fun, send thoughts for improvement to feedback forums / emails and then just have fun without attacking what someone else may like unless there is a topic made specifically to talk about it and provide personal input).
Though I do applaud a constructive way to try and bring one's thoughts of how to improve something. If there isn't constructive feedback, few things would ever be improved without there being reason for doing it.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
Together with the fact that each game area is usually designed for a specific range of levels, and the existence of instanced content you can remotely access through features like Duty/Dungeon Finder, you see dead Open Worlds, since a couple weeks into launch 9 out of 10 players are either in an instance or in an end game area for the majority of their play time.
Two primary reasons this doesn't make sense:
1. Zones have multiple level ranges in them so the very first sentence is a flat out lie.
2. FATEs are by far the most common pass time in the game, are extremely social and ensures there is always groups of people running around. The only caveat I would say is it seems some zones are more popular than others for FATEs.
Agreed, i think he got his games mixed up, because he seems to be describing Wow there.
When i was playing areas where packed with groups of people doing fates or people asking to do fates. The reason is fates provide the best xp for alts, if you did every quest on your main that is. even on the forums people complain because they see it as the only viable way to level alts, even though i beg to differ lol. So i also call BS on that.
Agreed, i think he got his games mixed up, because he seems to be describing Wow there.
When i was playing areas where packed with groups of people doing fates or people asking to do fates. The reason is fates provide the best xp for alts, if you did every quest on your main that is. even on the forums people complain because they see it as the only viable way to level alts, even though i beg to differ lol. So i also call BS on that.
Yeah that's always funny to watch. They're just trying to give their argument more weight even though it boils down to one simple factor: FATE's give the best exp.
When you lay down the above fact their argument is stripped from all substance. Their FFXIV life revolves around exp/hour and that's what their argument is all about. If one activity provides less exp/hour then it is not a viable activity, being entertained or playing for fun be damned.
To be fair most of them have long passed the point where playing MMO's was about being entertained or having fun. They may have fun under very specific circumstances for a very specific period of time if the moons align and they are always chasing for that fix, jumping from game to another. On the other hand they may find themselves posting on MMORPG.com, complaining about the battle system that they may not have even experienced past hearsay, internet forum discussion and level five combat. At that point their WoW expectations will fill in the blanks.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Agreed, i think he got his games mixed up, because he seems to be describing Wow there.
When i was playing areas where packed with groups of people doing fates or people asking to do fates. The reason is fates provide the best xp for alts, if you did every quest on your main that is. even on the forums people complain because they see it as the only viable way to level alts, even though i beg to differ lol. So i also call BS on that.
Yeah that's always funny to watch. They're just trying to give their argument more weight even though it boils down to one simple factor: FATE's give the best exp.
When you lay down the above fact their argument is stripped from all substance. Their FFXIV life revolves around exp/hour and that's what their argument is all about. If one activity provides less exp/hour then it is not a viable activity, being entertained or playing for fun be damned.
To be fair most of them have long passed the point where playing MMO's was about being entertained or having fun. They may have fun under very specific circumstances for a very specific period of time if the moons align and they are always chasing for that fix, jumping from game to another. On the other hand they may find themselves posting on MMORPG.com, complaining about the battle system that they may not have even experienced past hearsay, internet forum discussion and level five combat. At that point their WoW expectations will fill in the blanks.
I guess I am one of the few that actually enjoys doing fates. When I had Odin spawn nearly on my head in a zone which had maybe 2 or 3 players at most, suddenly fill up with about 100 players to fight a really intense battle against Odin, that for me was a lot of fun. The fate grind is a highly social event when you get down to it, and a lot less of the gear be damned judgement dungeon grinds, where social interaction boils down to a lot of cyber bullying, if there is any social interaction at all, gives players the choice of what kind of interaction to have. (When they up the xp in dungeons)
The best games offer the most paths to endgame and at endgame, which SE seems to be striving for, I like options rather than just one or two (PvE or PvP). Raiding is work intensive, but it shouldn't be the only option, the treasure hunting, dungeon running offer alternatives, while preserving Coils as the end all be all in gear, without punishing players who choose not to raid. I like the direction the game is headed.
Why was this thread necroed? It was from August of this year.. four months ago.
The combat in the game is intertwined with the boss mechanics. Here's a video of Titan Hard Mode..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkrBtg_9N5g ......sure looks boring..... (/sarcasm).
The game is a lot of fun for a lot of people.. There are 823491238 action based mmo's that came out recently. Play them to your heart's content. I love the trinity system and I love the dungeons in FFXIV. Both are done well.
I also don't like button mashing. That's what you resort to when the GCD (global cooldown is 1.5 seconds) or lower. When you have just as many abilities off the global cooldown as you do on the global cooldown, yu're weaving them in between the the cooldown. Whihc means you're using an ability every 1.25 seconds.
I am really excited about 2.1 and given SE's subscription numbers, hundreds of thousands of people are as well.
Why was this thread necroed? It was from August of this year.. four months ago.
The combat in the game is intertwined with the boss mechanics. Here's a video of Titan Hard Mode..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkrBtg_9N5g ......sure looks boring..... (/sarcasm).
Avoiding a bunch of AOE that repeats the same pattern over and over sure is exciting.
The game is a lot of fun for a lot of people.. There are 823491238 action based mmo's that came out recently. Play them to your heart's content. I love the trinity system and I love the dungeons in FFXIV. Both are done well.
I also don't like button mashing. That's what you resort to when the GCD (global cooldown is 1.5 seconds) or lower. When you have just as many abilities off the global cooldown as you do on the global cooldown, you're weaving them in between the the cooldown. Which means you're using an ability every 1.25 seconds.
I am really excited about 2.1 and given SE's subscription numbers, hundreds of thousands of people are as well.
I love the trinity system and dislike simplistic button mashers as well. I do think a skill modifier feature would add more tactical skill level in addition to what is here however.
Hotbar
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0
Rather than just cycling numbers or charging a skill(which generally are hold down the longest for strongest effect).
Have a set of possible parameters assigned to each individual skill.
Example:
Fire Spell: It's 3 parameters are potency, range, mp usage
Let's say Fire is set to hotkey 1.
Press and release hotkey 1= Normal cast
Press and hold key 1 second= Mp conservation Cast
Press and hold key 2 seconds= extended range
Press and hold key 3 seconds= increased potency
Option 2 for this modifier:
This second option is to offer more control but require less on the fly management per cast.
Introduce a toggle to move between parameters per skill. This toggle method adds more dynamics to the limited amount of hotbar skills in conjunction with gear & abilities.
Good basis what is currently on ARR but can always improve.
Why was this thread necroed? It was from August of this year.. four months ago.
The combat in the game is intertwined with the boss mechanics. Here's a video of Titan Hard Mode..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkrBtg_9N5g ......sure looks boring..... (/sarcasm).
Avoiding a bunch of AOE that repeats the same pattern over and over sure is exciting.
It's a nicely designed pve encounter that took many people 50-100 tries to beat. That's all you can ask for.
The best Free Company in all of FFXIV took 2 months to beat the entire Coil raid.
FFXIV is true to its roots. The 2.5 second GCD is close to the ATB gauge you had in previous mmos. FFXIV Has never been about button mashing. Even in FFXIII, it has become "action oriented" in that in no longer requires 3 person party taking turns, but the wait timer and atb guage is there.
If you enjoy Pve and if you enjoy Final Fantasy, than this is the best mmo on the market. If you're looking for pvp or action combat, look else where. I recommend GW2. I think GW2 is an awesome game and probably the best game for a majority of mmo players.
However, I don't enjoy pvp and I don't enjoy the action combat. I don't like that there are no raids nor party defined roles. Everyone is dps, healing and tank in one. It's not my cup of tea but there's nothing wrong with it.
The same could be said for FFXIV. I really enjoy the combat system. I really enjoy the pve design. I enjoy the crafting. People mistake their subjective opinion as though it's shared by teh majority.
If the combat was as horrible as people suggest than you wouldn't have as many people playing for the last 3.5 months.
GW2 and FFXIV just offer two really different models for what an mmo should be. One inherently isn't better than the other, it's what you prefer.
I also prefer subscription games over f2p or b2p because you get some nice, chunky/meaty content patches every 2-4 months. That what your subscription pays for. In GW2 i get content every 2 weeks, but it's content I could care less about. There's no substance. It's just a short spurt of entertainment followed by another small patch. Some people love this, and that's great. I don't. I want WoW type content to sink my teeth into.
There's not very much depth to combat, and there is literally more customization for our mounts than there is for the playable classes in the game.
Hilarious because its completely true.
What kind of backwards thinking is this?
The mount is not "a class". The mount has access to three "classes", with each being stripped down versions of the playable classes. The fact players have two choices for "healer" and "defender" as well as four choices for "attacker" completely annihilates any customization you can give to your horsebird.
In other words; haters be hating, business as usual.
How is it backwards thinking? You can actually choose if your chocobo is a tank, healer, or dps or mix.
For the classes, there's no choice. You can't pick and choose(and be effective). Try to be an archer and telling the group "Hey guys, i actually picked up some heal and defensive cooldowns instead of dps abilities and cooldowns from other classes, so i'm gonna heal okay?" and see how fast you get kicked out lol.
So like the guy said, our chocobo's have more customization than our classes do. The only thing we can do for the classes is add 30 stats, which for 99% of players we put them in the same places, so that really doesn't even count for customization honestly. Lol and choosing 5 skills...again everyone makes the same choices so hardly count as customization.
Why was this thread necroed? It was from August of this year.. four months ago.
The combat in the game is intertwined with the boss mechanics. Here's a video of Titan Hard Mode..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkrBtg_9N5g ......sure looks boring..... (/sarcasm).
Avoiding a bunch of AOE that repeats the same pattern over and over sure is exciting.
Pretty much sums up the battle system.
There's no room for player skill.
You have a set pattern of encounter mechanics, a set pattern of class mechanics, and you are just as good as your gear and ability to memorize things.
Originally posted by Yaevindusk
While I was somewhat negative in my last post to FFXIV, I'd have to say that it's apparent that a lot of the negative assertions here are from people who haven't played the game for any length of time -- or at least played it wrong (in some cases, it seems like one just read tool tips and made assertions thereof).
I would certainly say that to players who claim FFXIV's battle system is better than WoW's, because it's not. They are exactly the same, but FFXIV's version allows less player skill in your results.
Watch any PvP or PvE videos of any class/spec of WoW.
Watch how a considerable gap in player skill can allow 1v2 and 1v3 situations, and allow you to beat players of significantly higher level/gear.
None of that is possible in FFXIV. With the skills and mechanics at your disposal, there's no difference between good, great and amazing players.
Just good, great and amazing gear.
I say this, because I actually played all classes, tried crafting, even fishing and arcanist which were made available a couple weeks before launch.
I also researched the Skills available to Jobs, since everyone was saying "wait until Live, end game is what matters", only to find it doesn't add any meaningful depth. Just fills your Keybinds.
Nothing changed since the Beta. Everything "mechanical", from combat to crafting, is still a WoW-clone.
Yes, even crafting - the gathering/crafting minigames are a trick:
Individually, they are fun, but when you take all the items you will have to craft all the way to your final item, it suddenly goes from fun to chore.
Add lack of depth and uselessness to the mix - since anything worth its salt comes from Dungeons and Raids - and you've got yourself a filler system: something designed to make the game seem bigger, without actually adding anything.
It's the same with Fates.
Fates are the same as Dynamic Events in Warhammer Online and Guild Wars 2.
It's repeatable content - a lot more economical from a developer point of view.
You know where you've seen that before? Dailies. Except it's not daily - it's 15minute'ly.
Its only notable difference (and quality) is it doesn't require you to form a party to complete it as a group.
---
My final conclusion is this:
SquareEnix failed at launching a game with the standards they got us used to over years of awesome titles.
I'm glad there are so many diehard Final Fantasy fans that are willing to suffer through anything to support SquareEnix.
I'm sad those very same fans are holding SquareEnix back because instead of trying to help SE avoid making mistakes, these fans embrace every mistake SE makes.
Originally posted by drivendawn Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.
Reading comprehension fail.
He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?
There's not very much depth to combat, and there is literally more customization for our mounts than there is for the playable classes in the game.
Hilarious because its completely true.
What kind of backwards thinking is this?
The mount is not "a class". The mount has access to three "classes", with each being stripped down versions of the playable classes. The fact players have two choices for "healer" and "defender" as well as four choices for "attacker" completely annihilates any customization you can give to your horsebird.
In other words; haters be hating, business as usual.
How is it backwards thinking? You can actually choose if your chocobo is a tank, healer, or dps or mix.
For the classes, there's no choice. You can't pick and choose(and be effective). Try to be an archer and telling the group "Hey guys, i actually picked up some heal and defensive cooldowns instead of dps abilities and cooldowns from other classes, so i'm gonna heal okay?" and see how fast you get kicked out lol.
So like the guy said, our chocobo's have more customization than our classes do. The only thing we can do for the classes is add 30 stats, which for 99% of players we put them in the same places, so that really doesn't even count for customization honestly. Lol and choosing 5 skills...again everyone makes the same choices so hardly count as customization.
Don't forget that they also have a vanity system lol.
Originally posted by drivendawn Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.
Reading comprehension fail.
He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?
Bad players will always will be bad.
Whatever dude reason a lot of people can't make it through Coil is not because they are bad but because it requires some skill.
BC 1-5 has been done with PUG's. I don't think I ever heard of a PUG getting very far doing heroic progression raiding in WoW and we all know WoW is the easiest game to ever exist.
I read part of the report I guess you could call it by markarious, and I was impressed by the ideas, and evaluations personally. It was the first time I'd read anything where someone had broke down many of the mechanics employed by my first and only MMORPG, WOW. I bought this game, because I heard it was amazing. I was unimpressed though. I really like the idea of one character being capable of mastering all classes because I'm an altoholic, but beyond thatI didn't find much of anything unique or inspiring. The combat in the game was the main reason I stopped playing. The 2.5 sec GCD, the animation lock, and the way some of the skills worked, it made me feel as if I'd gone from driving a porsche to being put in a dump truck. That's probably more than a little bit of an exaggeration, but it's the first feeling I got when thinking of how to describe it. The one thing I harp on is the tanking, I played the marauder a bit, got it to warrior, and trying to tank at least early content, as compared to early tanking in WOW, was frankly a joke. Having no passive ability to help with threat generation until I got my main class, and having to level another class for solid aoe threat gen, and a taunt that sits on a 2 min CD, was absolutely ridiculous. I know that every Job has two classes attached to it, that are meant to be leveled, but those shared abilities had me scratching my head, I mean that was the best they could do? I'm sorry but I expect better.
Originally posted by drivendawn Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.
Reading comprehension fail.
He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?
Bad players will always will be bad.
Whatever dude reason a lot of people can't make it through Coil is not because they are bad but because it requires some skill.
BC 1-5 has been done with PUG's. I don't think I ever heard of a PUG getting very far doing heroic progression raiding in WoW and we all know WoW is the easiest game to ever exist.
Well I know there have been but not many and if you have proof wow heroic raids have never been beat by pugs produce it until then your just making assumptions.
BC 1-4 gets done by PUG groups regularly on Behemoth and probably every other server. I'm not assuming anything. I can promise you that not a single PUG did ICC heroic mode raiding when it was progression. I promise not a single PUG did Yogg 0 when it was considered progression lol.
Twintania pre-nerf was supposed to be extremely unforgiving and hard which is how it should have been. All but the extremely dedicated should have been banging their heads against that encounter for months. Instead, SE decided in their infinite wisdom to nerf it to the point that it can now be cleared by good PUG groups.
This is not to mention the fact that there is literally zero progression beyond BC for the next several months. So, we're left with a game that has six somewhat challenging encounters with three more (presumably) on the way. 99% of the game is ridiculously easy.
Originally posted by drivendawn Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.
Reading comprehension fail.
He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?
Bad players will always will be bad.
Whatever dude reason a lot of people can't make it through Coil is not because they are bad but because it requires some skill.
BC 1-5 has been done with PUG's. I don't think I ever heard of a PUG getting very far doing heroic progression raiding in WoW and we all know WoW is the easiest game to ever exist.
Well I know there have been but not many and if you have proof wow heroic raids have never been beat by pugs produce it until then your just making assumptions.
BC 1-4 gets done by PUG groups regularly on Behemoth and probably every other server. I'm not assuming anything. I can promise you that not a single PUG did ICC heroic mode raiding when it was progression. I promise not a single PUG did Yogg 0 when it was considered progression lol.
Twintania pre-nerf was supposed to be extremely unforgiving and hard which is how it should have been. All but the extremely dedicated should have been banging their heads against that encounter for months. Instead, SE decided in their infinite wisdom to nerf it to the point that it can now be cleared by good PUG groups.
This is not to mention the fact that there is literally zero progression beyond BC for the next several months. So, we're left with a game that has six somewhat challenging encounters with three more (presumably) on the way. 99% of the game is ridiculously easy.
This is Monday morning quarterbacking at its best... and hindsight is 20/20.
If this was so easy, why did it take 2 months for the first free company to complete Coil? Yes, the content has become easier only because the mythology cap has allowed people to do said content in i90 gear to get i90 gear.
Titan hardmode took the average person at least 20-30 attempts before downing, assuming they were not carried by people or didn't pay for a win.
AK for a pug, is a hard dungeon. Yes AK is easy when you overgear the instance. If you're doing AK with i70 gear+ and it is tuned for i55... then you see why it's easy.
We're 3.5 months into FFXIV... it's easy now but it wasn't for the first 2 months.. that seems about right in terms of difficulty curve.
Originally posted by drivendawn Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.
Reading comprehension fail.
He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?
Bad players will always will be bad.
Whatever dude reason a lot of people can't make it through Coil is not because they are bad but because it requires some skill.
BC 1-5 has been done with PUG's. I don't think I ever heard of a PUG getting very far doing heroic progression raiding in WoW and we all know WoW is the easiest game to ever exist.
Well I know there have been but not many and if you have proof wow heroic raids have never been beat by pugs produce it until then your just making assumptions.
BC 1-4 gets done by PUG groups regularly on Behemoth and probably every other server. I'm not assuming anything. I can promise you that not a single PUG did ICC heroic mode raiding when it was progression. I promise not a single PUG did Yogg 0 when it was considered progression lol.
Twintania pre-nerf was supposed to be extremely unforgiving and hard which is how it should have been. All but the extremely dedicated should have been banging their heads against that encounter for months. Instead, SE decided in their infinite wisdom to nerf it to the point that it can now be cleared by good PUG groups.
This is not to mention the fact that there is literally zero progression beyond BC for the next several months. So, we're left with a game that has six somewhat challenging encounters with three more (presumably) on the way. 99% of the game is ridiculously easy.
This is Monday morning quarterbacking at its best... and hindsight is 20/20.
If this was so easy, why did it take 2 months for the first free company to complete Coil? Yes, the content has become easier only because the mythology cap has allowed people to do said content in i90 gear to get i90 gear.
Titan hardmode took the average person at least 20-30 attempts before downing, assuming they were not carried by people or didn't pay for a win.
AK for a pug, is a hard dungeon. Yes AK is easy when you overgear the instance. If you're doing AK with i70 gear+ and it is tuned for i55... then you see why it's easy.
We're 3.5 months into FFXIV... it's easy now but it wasn't for the first 2 months.. that seems about right in terms of difficulty curve.
Maybe that's because we were meant to do BC with a mix of Mythology and CT gear instead of the Philo and Mythology that we have access to? Nah, being an entire tier behind what the instance was balanced for during progression couldn't have anything to do with it...
It took BG two months to down Twintania because of the gear deficit and because it wasn't nerfed yet. Pretty much as soon as they did down it, it got nerfed. Had they been doing progression on Twintania with the "re-balanced" Twister, I imagine they would have downed it much sooner.
Originally posted by drivendawn Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.
Reading comprehension fail.
He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?
Bad players will always will be bad.
Whatever dude reason a lot of people can't make it through Coil is not because they are bad but because it requires some skill.
Hey, guess what ilvl gear we were supposed to be entering coil with. Full ilvl80. Guess what ilvl gear you have people trying to do coil with, 60-70(with a couple pieces even less than that).
So wanna try that sentence again? Coil isn't hard, more people haven't killed Twintania not because its hard, its because they're either bad or undergeared. And at this point, its mostly just undergeared.
Originally posted by ZizouX
This is Monday morning quarterbacking at its best... and hindsight is 20/20.
If this was so easy, why did it take 2 months for the first free company to complete Coil? Yes, the content has become easier only because the mythology cap has allowed people to do said content in i90 gear to get i90 gear.
Titan hardmode took the average person at least 20-30 attempts before downing, assuming they were not carried by people or didn't pay for a win.
AK for a pug, is a hard dungeon. Yes AK is easy when you overgear the instance. If you're doing AK with i70 gear+ and it is tuned for i55... then you see why it's easy.
We're 3.5 months into FFXIV... it's easy now but it wasn't for the first 2 months.. that seems about right in terms of difficulty curve.
So you're going to just sit there and ignore that SE came out and acknowledged that Twintania was bugged and took down the fight completely TWICE to fix the bugs. And you still sit there and ask why it took the first kill 2 months? IT WAS BUGGED. I typed the answer in all caps incase you didn't see me answer that question before.
There is not enough content in a new game, news at 11. If having a lot of content is what you need in a mmo, then I would suggest not touching a game for at least a year after release. 2.1 is 6 days away, and it's a very large patch, with lots of end game focus, take it for what you will. I just never understand how people expect 10+ years worth of content at release, it's crazy.
Back to the topic at hand, the combat system is fine for a FF game.
Comments
Pretty much sums it up.
Maybe it'll be a lesson to all the white knights defending developers.
If the community doesn't unite to help the developers do the right thing, they'll almost always do the "popular" thing = copy a popular MMO.
GW2 also promised wonders, but between alpha and launch, they changed the game completely from what it was meant to be, to a WoW-hybrid.
Then ARR did the same mistake.
All MMOs now seem to launch with Dailies disguised as "Dynamic Events", and use that as an excuse to have less actual content.
Hilarious.
I actually have a good feeling about WildStar, because although their cartoon style isn't my favorite, it's pretty okay, and their mindset seems to be in the right direction for the most part.
Someone just hire me - I'll turn your MMO project into a real MMO
The global is still way too long (it's not "strategic" it's just slow), and having an instant off-GCD silence or stun that doesn't silence or stun instantly because of an overly flashy animation annoys the hell out of me. Mechanically, some of the classes are interesting i.e. Monk while others are completely brainless i.e. Paladin. There's not very much depth to combat, and there is literally more customization for our mounts than there is for the playable classes in the game.
Overall, I think your comment about SE giving us a beautiful game with a bunch of fan service is pretty much spot on. The game is extremely average, which is not usually something I'd willingly celebrate, but in this case I feel like some celebration is called for seeing how this all started with 1.0. I'm not sure why someone would play this game if they weren't big fans of the franchise as there's MMO's on the market that do everything this game does, but they do it better.
Hilarious because its completely true.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
What kind of backwards thinking is this?
The mount is not "a class". The mount has access to three "classes", with each being stripped down versions of the playable classes. The fact players have two choices for "healer" and "defender" as well as four choices for "attacker" completely annihilates any customization you can give to your horsebird.
In other words; haters be hating, business as usual.
I stopped considering your argument here:
Together with the fact that each game area is usually designed for a specific range of levels, and the existence of instanced content you can remotely access through features like Duty/Dungeon Finder, you see dead Open Worlds, since a couple weeks into launch 9 out of 10 players are either in an instance or in an end game area for the majority of their play time.
Two primary reasons this doesn't make sense:
1. Zones have multiple level ranges in them so the very first sentence is a flat out lie.
2. FATEs are by far the most common pass time in the game, are extremely social and ensures there is always groups of people running around. The only caveat I would say is it seems some zones are more popular than others for FATEs.
While I was somewhat negative in my last post to FFXIV, I'd have to say that it's apparent that a lot of the negative assertions here are from people who haven't played the game for any length of time -- or at least played it wrong (in some cases, it seems like one just read tool tips and made assertions thereof). There is always room for improvement, and we'll just have to wait and see with the first patch if they're heading in that direction (though the information given is already promising).
Once you hit a high understanding of the game's mechanics and such, you start to realize how fine a lot of the systems are under the conditions they made them for. Tanks are perhaps the weakest part of this game, and are receiving a lot of updates (on the warrior side, at least) to be improved. Monks are perhaps the most interesting with multiple rotations, buff rotations, stun, DoT, etc. rotations whereby you're switching your position every few seconds and on the fly while deciding the best rotation to use next based on the enemy's position, the enemy's attack pattern, your tank, your healer and many other factors. The speed of the monk is also quite quick when fully buffed, and the duration is rumored to be increased so that the buff falls less often or is increased to make up for it falling.
There is also a problem with melee DPS being limited to Lances and Fists -- not everyone wants to use a lance or fist for melee (and the monk is an incredibly hard class to master and play as such consistently) -- and they need to add more choices in that fashion. Though to say that the GDC isn't balanced or that you don't have to think of when it's a good time to use something simply because you know a stun is needed to save the party (or some other ability) is just ignorance to the scene (as is resource management, especially on the Warrior's side). That's how the game was developed, and not everything needs to be a fast-paced copy of the "norm" people expect. When we start to leave our bias behind and simply take games as new additions to our library with their own systems is when we'll see less needless "hate" simply because one does not understand. If by then it's still not someone's ideal, then they can just find another game that is. When we want a game that has the same combat as everything else, and then chastise it for being a "same old" themepark, it really sends a mixed message and I can't help but to think said people are a bit confused (we're still in the "DPS must always focus on DPS and never be a benefit to the party or do things like crowd control or preparation / expectation / duties" thought process as a whole when we're thinking the above).
I personally would've liked to see a personal "limit break" meter whereby you could employ spectacular attacks (similar to TP build in FFXI with 100% being level 1 and 300% being level 3) in addition to some basic attacks and auto attacks. Perhaps have the attacks be a sort of "Mystic Arte" spectic from Tales with long animations that make up for being such by being incredibly powerful. Perhaps the GDC increased a bit (along with making it so auto-attacks strike more often to fill in waiting gaps), or decreased (as I'm not a fan of 2.5 myself) to make each attack more "meaningful" or "entertaining" respectively. Though to say the current one doesn't work simply because I think it could be better is folly. To not play because of it would be a personal choice, though I'm a fairly "take what I can get" individual and only play games to have fun anyway (play to have fun, send thoughts for improvement to feedback forums / emails and then just have fun without attacking what someone else may like unless there is a topic made specifically to talk about it and provide personal input).
Though I do applaud a constructive way to try and bring one's thoughts of how to improve something. If there isn't constructive feedback, few things would ever be improved without there being reason for doing it.
Agreed, i think he got his games mixed up, because he seems to be describing Wow there.
When i was playing areas where packed with groups of people doing fates or people asking to do fates. The reason is fates provide the best xp for alts, if you did every quest on your main that is. even on the forums people complain because they see it as the only viable way to level alts, even though i beg to differ lol. So i also call BS on that.
Yeah that's always funny to watch. They're just trying to give their argument more weight even though it boils down to one simple factor: FATE's give the best exp.
When you lay down the above fact their argument is stripped from all substance. Their FFXIV life revolves around exp/hour and that's what their argument is all about. If one activity provides less exp/hour then it is not a viable activity, being entertained or playing for fun be damned.
To be fair most of them have long passed the point where playing MMO's was about being entertained or having fun. They may have fun under very specific circumstances for a very specific period of time if the moons align and they are always chasing for that fix, jumping from game to another. On the other hand they may find themselves posting on MMORPG.com, complaining about the battle system that they may not have even experienced past hearsay, internet forum discussion and level five combat. At that point their WoW expectations will fill in the blanks.
I guess I am one of the few that actually enjoys doing fates. When I had Odin spawn nearly on my head in a zone which had maybe 2 or 3 players at most, suddenly fill up with about 100 players to fight a really intense battle against Odin, that for me was a lot of fun. The fate grind is a highly social event when you get down to it, and a lot less of the gear be damned judgement dungeon grinds, where social interaction boils down to a lot of cyber bullying, if there is any social interaction at all, gives players the choice of what kind of interaction to have. (When they up the xp in dungeons)
The best games offer the most paths to endgame and at endgame, which SE seems to be striving for, I like options rather than just one or two (PvE or PvP). Raiding is work intensive, but it shouldn't be the only option, the treasure hunting, dungeon running offer alternatives, while preserving Coils as the end all be all in gear, without punishing players who choose not to raid. I like the direction the game is headed.
Why was this thread necroed? It was from August of this year.. four months ago.
The combat in the game is intertwined with the boss mechanics. Here's a video of Titan Hard Mode..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkrBtg_9N5g ......sure looks boring..... (/sarcasm).
The game is a lot of fun for a lot of people.. There are 823491238 action based mmo's that came out recently. Play them to your heart's content. I love the trinity system and I love the dungeons in FFXIV. Both are done well.
I also don't like button mashing. That's what you resort to when the GCD (global cooldown is 1.5 seconds) or lower. When you have just as many abilities off the global cooldown as you do on the global cooldown, yu're weaving them in between the the cooldown. Whihc means you're using an ability every 1.25 seconds.
I am really excited about 2.1 and given SE's subscription numbers, hundreds of thousands of people are as well.
Avoiding a bunch of AOE that repeats the same pattern over and over sure is exciting.
I love the trinity system and dislike simplistic button mashers as well. I do think a skill modifier feature would add more tactical skill level in addition to what is here however.
Hotbar
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0
Rather than just cycling numbers or charging a skill(which generally are hold down the longest for strongest effect).
Have a set of possible parameters assigned to each individual skill.
Example:
Fire Spell: It's 3 parameters are potency, range, mp usage
Let's say Fire is set to hotkey 1.
Press and release hotkey 1= Normal cast
Press and hold key 1 second= Mp conservation Cast
Press and hold key 2 seconds= extended range
Press and hold key 3 seconds= increased potency
Option 2 for this modifier:
This second option is to offer more control but require less on the fly management per cast.
Introduce a toggle to move between parameters per skill. This toggle method adds more dynamics to the limited amount of hotbar skills in conjunction with gear & abilities.
Good basis what is currently on ARR but can always improve.
It's a nicely designed pve encounter that took many people 50-100 tries to beat. That's all you can ask for.
The best Free Company in all of FFXIV took 2 months to beat the entire Coil raid.
FFXIV is true to its roots. The 2.5 second GCD is close to the ATB gauge you had in previous mmos. FFXIV Has never been about button mashing. Even in FFXIII, it has become "action oriented" in that in no longer requires 3 person party taking turns, but the wait timer and atb guage is there.
If you enjoy Pve and if you enjoy Final Fantasy, than this is the best mmo on the market. If you're looking for pvp or action combat, look else where. I recommend GW2. I think GW2 is an awesome game and probably the best game for a majority of mmo players.
However, I don't enjoy pvp and I don't enjoy the action combat. I don't like that there are no raids nor party defined roles. Everyone is dps, healing and tank in one. It's not my cup of tea but there's nothing wrong with it.
The same could be said for FFXIV. I really enjoy the combat system. I really enjoy the pve design. I enjoy the crafting. People mistake their subjective opinion as though it's shared by teh majority.
If the combat was as horrible as people suggest than you wouldn't have as many people playing for the last 3.5 months.
GW2 and FFXIV just offer two really different models for what an mmo should be. One inherently isn't better than the other, it's what you prefer.
I also prefer subscription games over f2p or b2p because you get some nice, chunky/meaty content patches every 2-4 months. That what your subscription pays for. In GW2 i get content every 2 weeks, but it's content I could care less about. There's no substance. It's just a short spurt of entertainment followed by another small patch. Some people love this, and that's great. I don't. I want WoW type content to sink my teeth into.
In 6 days we're getting just that with 2.1.
I'm glad it was necro'd. The Doc was a nice read and had some good approached, imho.
It almost makes me wanna try FFARR to just compare,..
..almost...is there a free trial? hehehe
How is it backwards thinking? You can actually choose if your chocobo is a tank, healer, or dps or mix.
For the classes, there's no choice. You can't pick and choose(and be effective). Try to be an archer and telling the group "Hey guys, i actually picked up some heal and defensive cooldowns instead of dps abilities and cooldowns from other classes, so i'm gonna heal okay?" and see how fast you get kicked out lol.
So like the guy said, our chocobo's have more customization than our classes do. The only thing we can do for the classes is add 30 stats, which for 99% of players we put them in the same places, so that really doesn't even count for customization honestly. Lol and choosing 5 skills...again everyone makes the same choices so hardly count as customization.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
Pretty much sums up the battle system.
There's no room for player skill.
You have a set pattern of encounter mechanics, a set pattern of class mechanics, and you are just as good as your gear and ability to memorize things.
I would certainly say that to players who claim FFXIV's battle system is better than WoW's, because it's not. They are exactly the same, but FFXIV's version allows less player skill in your results.
Watch any PvP or PvE videos of any class/spec of WoW.
Watch how a considerable gap in player skill can allow 1v2 and 1v3 situations, and allow you to beat players of significantly higher level/gear.
None of that is possible in FFXIV. With the skills and mechanics at your disposal, there's no difference between good, great and amazing players.
Just good, great and amazing gear.
I say this, because I actually played all classes, tried crafting, even fishing and arcanist which were made available a couple weeks before launch.
I also researched the Skills available to Jobs, since everyone was saying "wait until Live, end game is what matters", only to find it doesn't add any meaningful depth. Just fills your Keybinds.
Nothing changed since the Beta. Everything "mechanical", from combat to crafting, is still a WoW-clone.
Yes, even crafting - the gathering/crafting minigames are a trick:
Individually, they are fun, but when you take all the items you will have to craft all the way to your final item, it suddenly goes from fun to chore.
Add lack of depth and uselessness to the mix - since anything worth its salt comes from Dungeons and Raids - and you've got yourself a filler system: something designed to make the game seem bigger, without actually adding anything.
It's the same with Fates.
Fates are the same as Dynamic Events in Warhammer Online and Guild Wars 2.
It's repeatable content - a lot more economical from a developer point of view.
You know where you've seen that before? Dailies. Except it's not daily - it's 15minute'ly.
Its only notable difference (and quality) is it doesn't require you to form a party to complete it as a group.
---
My final conclusion is this:
SquareEnix failed at launching a game with the standards they got us used to over years of awesome titles.
I'm glad there are so many diehard Final Fantasy fans that are willing to suffer through anything to support SquareEnix.
I'm sad those very same fans are holding SquareEnix back because instead of trying to help SE avoid making mistakes, these fans embrace every mistake SE makes.
He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?
Bad players will always will be bad.
Don't forget that they also have a vanity system lol.
BC 1-5 has been done with PUG's. I don't think I ever heard of a PUG getting very far doing heroic progression raiding in WoW and we all know WoW is the easiest game to ever exist.
I read part of the report I guess you could call it by markarious, and I was impressed by the ideas, and evaluations personally. It was the first time I'd read anything where someone had broke down many of the mechanics employed by my first and only MMORPG, WOW. I bought this game, because I heard it was amazing. I was unimpressed though. I really like the idea of one character being capable of mastering all classes because I'm an altoholic, but beyond thatI didn't find much of anything unique or inspiring. The combat in the game was the main reason I stopped playing. The 2.5 sec GCD, the animation lock, and the way some of the skills worked, it made me feel as if I'd gone from driving a porsche to being put in a dump truck. That's probably more than a little bit of an exaggeration, but it's the first feeling I got when thinking of how to describe it. The one thing I harp on is the tanking, I played the marauder a bit, got it to warrior, and trying to tank at least early content, as compared to early tanking in WOW, was frankly a joke. Having no passive ability to help with threat generation until I got my main class, and having to level another class for solid aoe threat gen, and a taunt that sits on a 2 min CD, was absolutely ridiculous. I know that every Job has two classes attached to it, that are meant to be leveled, but those shared abilities had me scratching my head, I mean that was the best they could do? I'm sorry but I expect better.
BC 1-4 gets done by PUG groups regularly on Behemoth and probably every other server. I'm not assuming anything. I can promise you that not a single PUG did ICC heroic mode raiding when it was progression. I promise not a single PUG did Yogg 0 when it was considered progression lol.
Twintania pre-nerf was supposed to be extremely unforgiving and hard which is how it should have been. All but the extremely dedicated should have been banging their heads against that encounter for months. Instead, SE decided in their infinite wisdom to nerf it to the point that it can now be cleared by good PUG groups.
This is not to mention the fact that there is literally zero progression beyond BC for the next several months. So, we're left with a game that has six somewhat challenging encounters with three more (presumably) on the way. 99% of the game is ridiculously easy.
This is Monday morning quarterbacking at its best... and hindsight is 20/20.
If this was so easy, why did it take 2 months for the first free company to complete Coil? Yes, the content has become easier only because the mythology cap has allowed people to do said content in i90 gear to get i90 gear.
Titan hardmode took the average person at least 20-30 attempts before downing, assuming they were not carried by people or didn't pay for a win.
AK for a pug, is a hard dungeon. Yes AK is easy when you overgear the instance. If you're doing AK with i70 gear+ and it is tuned for i55... then you see why it's easy.
We're 3.5 months into FFXIV... it's easy now but it wasn't for the first 2 months.. that seems about right in terms of difficulty curve.
Maybe that's because we were meant to do BC with a mix of Mythology and CT gear instead of the Philo and Mythology that we have access to? Nah, being an entire tier behind what the instance was balanced for during progression couldn't have anything to do with it...
It took BG two months to down Twintania because of the gear deficit and because it wasn't nerfed yet. Pretty much as soon as they did down it, it got nerfed. Had they been doing progression on Twintania with the "re-balanced" Twister, I imagine they would have downed it much sooner.
Hey, guess what ilvl gear we were supposed to be entering coil with. Full ilvl80. Guess what ilvl gear you have people trying to do coil with, 60-70(with a couple pieces even less than that).
So wanna try that sentence again? Coil isn't hard, more people haven't killed Twintania not because its hard, its because they're either bad or undergeared. And at this point, its mostly just undergeared.
So you're going to just sit there and ignore that SE came out and acknowledged that Twintania was bugged and took down the fight completely TWICE to fix the bugs. And you still sit there and ask why it took the first kill 2 months? IT WAS BUGGED. I typed the answer in all caps incase you didn't see me answer that question before.Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
There is not enough content in a new game, news at 11. If having a lot of content is what you need in a mmo, then I would suggest not touching a game for at least a year after release. 2.1 is 6 days away, and it's a very large patch, with lots of end game focus, take it for what you will. I just never understand how people expect 10+ years worth of content at release, it's crazy.
Back to the topic at hand, the combat system is fine for a FF game.