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The Greatest Potential, Wasted

124

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  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,455Member Uncommon

    Lord of the Rings is just a problematic IP for an mmo.

    I've love it to be more specific to various lore points but unless one mixes in some of the story elements and characters the world can feel a little watered down.

    Someone can correct me on this but I thought that middle earth online took place "after" the whole lord of the rings confrontation? If that's so then that becomes more problematic because the elves are leaving/have left middle earth, I believe the dwarves go further underground and it then becomes the age of man.

    If one really wants to be specific to the lore then we shouldn't be having hobbits and humans in lothlorien or elves running around the shire.

    Quite frankly I would be happier with major towns and cities in the books to be instanced where only a person's party is privy to the space.

    Having elves running around Bree doesn't feel right.

    I suppose, with this IP, one needs to come up with reasons that it all sort of makes sense. Whether that's one's own story, putting on blinders to lightning flying all around (rune keepers) or just turning a blind eye to the parts that don't really resonate.

    I think that's one of the reasons I think lotro  should be more like the original guild wars. at least to my tastes.

  • MothanosMothanos ArnhemPosts: 1,860Member Uncommon

    Totaly agree OP, altough i never played LotRO i played 70% of all the major mmo's that came out and closed to doors in the past 15 years or so.

    It seems as if developers spend to much time looking at other mmo's instead of making their own mmo unique and add vast patches with contend that delivers.

    I seriously consider to just give up hope to play a mmo like UO / DaoC / Eve / WoW.
    These were milestones but bad decisions made most of these mmo's not worth playing anymore.

    Not to mention the potantial of some of the mmo's could have had when designed a littlebit diffrent.

  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon

    The reason Elves run around Bree is because it is a MMO - No MMO makes sense of any IP

    In SWTOR every class can play Bounty Hunter

    In SWG Jedi were everywhere in a time frame where there were few Jedi

    In STO every one is a captain

  • Kicksave321Kicksave321 Red wing, MNPosts: 262Member
    Originally posted by superniceguy

    The reason Elves run around Bree is because it is a MMO - No MMO makes sense of any IP

    In SWTOR every class can play Bounty Hunter

    In SWG Jedi were everywhere in a time frame where there were few Jedi

    In STO every one is a captain

     

    I agree with this, I assume your talking about the BH event in Swtor.  But if you take lotro overall they have done a pretty good job with the lore.  You do feel like your in middle earth as you explore the world.  Yes there are lore breaking things but by no means do they out weigh lore focused things.   
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,455Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by superniceguy

    The reason Elves run around Bree is because it is a MMO - No MMO makes sense of any IP

    In SWTOR every class can play Bounty Hunter

    In SWG Jedi were everywhere in a time frame where there were few Jedi

    In STO every one is a captain

    well they "could'. However, that would just pare down the playerbase.

    I mean, you "could' have a lord of the rings game where players could only enter the areas where their races would be. It's not impossible. Whether or not players like that is another thing.

    mmo's tend not to make "sense" of the IP's because they want to cater to a larger group of players who probably want to experience the game in a way that resonates with them.

    So sure, there are Star Trek players who would have been very happy to have a ship where there was only one captain, someone played the engineer, someone played the medic, etc.

    I could easily see it being done and I can easily imagine players wanting to play it. I could also imagine a lot of disgruntled players who all wanted to be kirk.

    I don't think the reason it because it's an mmo but that to get the larger group of players, mmo's tend to compress timelines, make certain things accessible, etc.

    But there is nothing stopping an online game from adopting strict rules about the world it's made in other than money.

  • fantasyfreak112fantasyfreak112 Orange County, CAPosts: 499Member
    How did LOTRO have so much potential? lol it was the most obvious WoW clone ever. In a way this game paved the way for all the other WoW clones we see today. This game deserves no praise of mine; in fact, the exact opposite.
  • ingphorlasingphorlas hamilton, ONPosts: 32Member
    shadows of angmar at launch was good then it slowly devolved into utter crap ... i have a lifetime sub but i wont ever install lotro again
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,455Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by fantasyfreak112
    How did LOTRO have so much potential? lol it was the most obvious WoW clone ever. In a way this game paved the way for all the other WoW clones we see today. This game deserves no praise of mine; in fact, the exact opposite.

    hmmmm, some of that could come from closed beta or at least early in the game's life.

    Remember, the old forest was extremely difficult to navigate and was very dangerous, there are areas around Bree that are there "just because".

    North east Bree area is the one that comes to mind. You can actually go there and feel like you are exploring middle earth just to explore.

    For earlier players, beta testers (of which I was one) the game felt different. Oh sure it had some of the same mechanics as WoW but it felt a bit different. As time went by things focused more and it became more of what it is today.

  • Kicksave321Kicksave321 Red wing, MNPosts: 262Member
    Originally posted by ingphorlas
    shadows of angmar at launch was good then it slowly devolved into utter crap ... i have a lifetime sub but i wont ever install lotro again

     

    And here you are over six years later still posting on a "crap" game??
  • fantasyfreak112fantasyfreak112 Orange County, CAPosts: 499Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by fantasyfreak112
    How did LOTRO have so much potential? lol it was the most obvious WoW clone ever. In a way this game paved the way for all the other WoW clones we see today. This game deserves no praise of mine; in fact, the exact opposite.

    hmmmm, some of that could come from closed beta or at least early in the game's life.

    Remember, the old forest was extremely difficult to navigate and was very dangerous, there are areas around Bree that are there "just because".

    North east Bree area is the one that comes to mind. You can actually go there and feel like you are exploring middle earth just to explore.

    For earlier players, beta testers (of which I was one) the game felt different. Oh sure it had some of the same mechanics as WoW but it felt a bit different. As time went by things focused more and it became more of what it is today.

    It doesn't really matter if it wasn't like WoW in beta. I played it at release and a few random times thereafter and it is the most obvious WoW clone ever, short of Rift. 1 or 2 different  features doesn't change this.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by Lobotomist
    Originally posted by ThomasN7
    It is Turbine. What did you expect ? It still amazes me that people actually think Turbine is actually good at what they do. They are an average developer at best in my opinion. Whoever granted them the rights to this ip should have their heads checked. I love Lotr and giving the rights to Turbine was a huge fail. It is really disappointing.

    This is so unfair. Please do tell me one better adaptation of any book or movie to a video game , not to say MMO.

     

    As for point made about breaching the lore soon after you leave the Shire.

    Point being made, its the game. As far as growing pipeweed and gossiping would be far more fitting. I doubt that anyone including you would manage to play 6 years time of watch the cabbage grow. Not even 1 week.

    Its a game.

     

    As for lore ending with Shire. I also beg to differ.

    Just that climb down the secret passage to Rivendell was worth awe to any Tolkien fan.

     

    I think you underestimate how many people would like to explore a Middle Earth without the 'gaming' aspects.  Not everyone wants to be a hero - some people just want to explore other worlds and lore.  Look at the Animal Crossing franchise to see the mass appeal of this kind of thing. 

    To be honest, its getting a bit old seeing thousands of epic heroes running around.  It would be nice to see more focus on farmers, merchants, craftsmen, scouts, explorers and entertainers. Things that make a living breathing world, rather than 'Epic Loot Piñata Quest'.

    But I digress, I think we are a long way off anything that resembles this.

  • ingphorlasingphorlas hamilton, ONPosts: 32Member
    It popped up on the home page of this site, so I just put my opinion on the game in here. Lots of things made it great I literally loved this game for a good long time and then they made many poor decisions with its direction.  do you still play it ?
  • Kicksave321Kicksave321 Red wing, MNPosts: 262Member
    Originally posted by fantasyfreak112
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by fantasyfreak112
    How did LOTRO have so much potential? lol it was the most obvious WoW clone ever. In a way this game paved the way for all the other WoW clones we see today. This game deserves no praise of mine; in fact, the exact opposite.

    hmmmm, some of that could come from closed beta or at least early in the game's life.

    Remember, the old forest was extremely difficult to navigate and was very dangerous, there are areas around Bree that are there "just because".

    North east Bree area is the one that comes to mind. You can actually go there and feel like you are exploring middle earth just to explore.

    For earlier players, beta testers (of which I was one) the game felt different. Oh sure it had some of the same mechanics as WoW but it felt a bit different. As time went by things focused more and it became more of what it is today.

    It doesn't really matter if it wasn't like WoW in beta. I played it at release and a few random times thereafter and it is the most obvious WoW clone ever, short of Rift. 1 or 2 different  features doesn't change this.

    COD, BF, rainbow six and any other fps is a clone of 007 back in the day.  These games all have their unique differences as does lotro has it's differences from wow.  They may not be huge in your eyes but for over six years this game has been pumping out content and doing a pretty good job and a lot of players enjoy it.  To bad 90% of mmos are clones of one another maybe your just playing the wrong games.  

  • Kicksave321Kicksave321 Red wing, MNPosts: 262Member
    Originally posted by ingphorlas
    It popped up on the home page of this site, so I just put my opinion on the game in here. Lots of things made it great I literally loved this game for a good long time and then they made many poor decisions with its direction.  do you still play it ?

     

    Yeah I was in beta and been on and off since have over 3 months of game time played (2100hrs) I don't think it's perfect but for some reason I always go back to it .  
  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by superniceguy

    The reason Elves run around Bree is because it is a MMO - No MMO makes sense of any IP

    In SWTOR every class can play Bounty Hunter

    In SWG Jedi were everywhere in a time frame where there were few Jedi

    In STO every one is a captain

    well they "could'. However, that would just pare down the playerbase.

    I mean, you "could' have a lord of the rings game where players could only enter the areas where their races would be. It's not impossible. Whether or not players like that is another thing.

    mmo's tend not to make "sense" of the IP's because they want to cater to a larger group of players who probably want to experience the game in a way that resonates with them.

    So sure, there are Star Trek players who would have been very happy to have a ship where there was only one captain, someone played the engineer, someone played the medic, etc.

    I could easily see it being done and I can easily imagine players wanting to play it. I could also imagine a lot of disgruntled players who all wanted to be kirk.

    I don't think the reason it because it's an mmo but that to get the larger group of players, mmo's tend to compress timelines, make certain things accessible, etc.

    But there is nothing stopping an online game from adopting strict rules about the world it's made in other than money.

     It is also the players that make the game too, and while it my not seem right for Elves to run around Bree, I do not see why it should be restricted. Dwarves visited the Shire in the Hobbit. Also Hobbits mainly live in the Shire but some also live in Bree and some in Gondor and Rohan. Is there anything in the lore to say that Elves are forbidden to be in Bree?

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,455Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by superniceguy
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by superniceguy

    The reason Elves run around Bree is because it is a MMO - No MMO makes sense of any IP

    In SWTOR every class can play Bounty Hunter

    In SWG Jedi were everywhere in a time frame where there were few Jedi

    In STO every one is a captain

    well they "could'. However, that would just pare down the playerbase.

    I mean, you "could' have a lord of the rings game where players could only enter the areas where their races would be. It's not impossible. Whether or not players like that is another thing.

    mmo's tend not to make "sense" of the IP's because they want to cater to a larger group of players who probably want to experience the game in a way that resonates with them.

    So sure, there are Star Trek players who would have been very happy to have a ship where there was only one captain, someone played the engineer, someone played the medic, etc.

    I could easily see it being done and I can easily imagine players wanting to play it. I could also imagine a lot of disgruntled players who all wanted to be kirk.

    I don't think the reason it because it's an mmo but that to get the larger group of players, mmo's tend to compress timelines, make certain things accessible, etc.

    But there is nothing stopping an online game from adopting strict rules about the world it's made in other than money.

     It is also the players that make the game too, and while it my not seem right for Elves to run around Bree, I do not see why it should be restricted. Dwarves visited the Shire in the Hobbit. Also Hobbits mainly live in the Shire but some also live in Bree and some in Gondor and Rohan. Is there anything in the lore to say that Elves are forbidden to be in Bree?

    Are you saying that dwarves, in general made frequent visits to the shire or are you just pointing out the story of the Hobbit?

    One is an indication of how the races of this world interacted and one is an important plot point.

    I know that hobbits were in Bree.

    Given that the races kept to themselves it seems reaching that elves were hanging around the shire. That's not really their modus operandi. But if you know of something I don't I'd be more than happy to read it! since Sam was so excited to see elves my guess is that they didn't come to the shire. At least not in his lifetime.

    We only know what the stories give us as well as Tokien's notes.

    So sure, hobbits lived close to Gondor. I don't remember anything mentioning hobbits hanging around lothlorien or as I mentioned elves hanging around the shire or bree. I think dwarves could  probably be in Bree as well.

    But maybe your point is correct in that there is one thing to be following the story and another to acknowlege that if this was a world then in some cases certain races would run into each other.

     

  • azarhalazarhal Somewhere, BCPosts: 761Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro

    To be honest, its getting a bit old seeing thousands of epic heroes running around.  It would be nice to see more focus on farmers, merchants, craftsmen, scouts, explorers and entertainers. Things that make a living breathing world, rather than 'Epic Loot Piñata Quest'.

    I see comment similar to this for single player cRPGs, players are saying that "saving the world" plots gets old and that they want something else, more option to explore, more downtime activities, but when they do get another type of plot they cry it's a crap story and that their character don't feel heroic enough. When they get exploration, they cry the gameworld is confusing and that it takes too much time to get somewhere.

    You will always see epic heroes running around, because that is what the majority of players wants: feel powerful without too much  brain requirement.

    In the case of Lotro, the early areas (Bree, Shire) do a good job at showing you as just the next guy that happen to be mixed up with some important stuff. I mean, delivering post isn't exactly an epic tasks. I have never been farther than that in Lotro so I can comment about "later". I also think that the Shire is "spot on" when it comes to the lore, it's my favorite MMO zone in all the games I played.

  • NephaeriusNephaerius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,539Member Uncommon
    Middle Earth Online was being made by Sierra not turbine. Theres so much inaccurate information on this thread I can't even begin to correct it all.

    Steam: Neph

  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,718Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Are you saying that dwarves, in general made frequent visits to the shire or are you just pointing out the story of the Hobbit?

    Not quite frequent, but significantly more than the other two races. True, not visiting the Shire, just travelling through it.

     

    Great thread. I'm with Lobotomist on that I think Turbine made a great job with LotRO. (though I'm not fully agree with him on the movies insulting the books... The movies had issues, a few serious one even, but insulting maybe a bit too harsh word for them :) )

    Harafnir mentioned the action-LotR on xbox, well, if it's confession-time I've already posted in the LMO thread that while I never liked Lego, I had so much fun with Lego LotR :) neat little game, but not a perfect fit for the IP.

    And if IP, I admit Picard has some truth with the Orthanc raid... Purely as a game it's nicely done, the mechanics are fun, etc. On the other hand, little Sarumans running up and down, seriously? Khm. Let's get back to exploring and strolling around the world instead. (at least for me)

     

    edit: for Trek, I'd love to have an option (or even a full-fledged minigame) to playing the crew. The ship interior is already there in STO, same with the consoles, it'd be great to populate them. I don't even care about the bridge, give me the engine room :)

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Catskills, NYPosts: 1,832Member

    For the type of game it was designed to be, I think LOTRO did a decent enough job....at least in the early parts of SoA. Decent, not awesome, not as good as I would have liked but they really did ok to begin with.

    Personaly I would have much prefered the game MEO was planned to be....and I think that would have served the feel of Middle Earth much, much better. However, if you are going to make a standard Themepark style MMO....LOTRO really didn't do a bad job of the IP.

    I DO think they really did start to slip-up on that considerably toward the end of SoA and definately into Moria. They definately seemed to be drifting toward a High-Magic, generic High Fantasy setting then Middle Earth.....and I think that was purposefull on thier part...and a wrong move, getting away from what was strongest and most distinct about LOTRO.

    After MoM....I think it's been a bit hit and miss on the Middle Earth. Some aspects have been really pretty good at recapturing the feel of the IP......others very much not so.

    I don't play LOTRO anymore......alot of my objections to the game in more recent days are based on Turbines business practices and gameplay design choices rather then themeatic.

    I think the art-style, art-work and scenery HAVE actualy done a very good job in capturing the feel. In terms of world and quest design.....really the high point was SoA save at the very end. MoM was a disaster, IMO, as far as that goes. Since then some of the actualy has gotten better and harkened back a bit to the SoA days....other stuff...not so much.

    In terms of gameplay design choices, I think LOTRO really hasn't done a good job in representing Middle Earth. SoA was not too terrible in that regard but it has gone progressively downhill since then, IMO.

    I do agree with the OP......in order to do true justice to the IP, the Developers would have had to set out to design a VERY, VERY different type of game then what LOTRO is....very different then most MMO's. That's obviously a huge risk and a huge challenge but it is what it is.

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by Boneserino
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    Well, this game used to be an ambitious sandbox game called Middle Earth Online, that focused on simulating life in Middle Earth.

     

    Then WoW got big, Turbine got scared, fired most of their devs, hired devs fresh out of college, and in 9 months fast tracked this game into LotRO, instanced quest grinding linear game with boring mechanics and atmosphere ruined by invisible walls, instances, and bad gameplay. The only good features in the games are relics from Middle Earth Online.

     

    It's a shame what happened and I wish another company could get a shot with it. But so long as a publisher is behind it, we'll never get a good MMO in Middle Earth.

    Here is a link  to which you speak.

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/06/21/the-game-archaeologist-and-the-what-ifs-middle-earth-online/

    Be sure to read the last paragraph.

     

    Still, calling Lotro a  greatest wasted potential   is stretching it a bit much.   The game is fine on its own and if someone wants to try making a Middle Earth Online then more power to them.

     

    Game is fine on its own IF it was not carrying the name of LORD OF THE RINGS. Such a game cannot be just "fine" it has to be fucking EPIC.

    The movies came close to that mark and are worthy of the name. This game is a fucking disgrace and not worthy of carrying the name of Tolkien's masterpiece.

  • Kicksave321Kicksave321 Red wing, MNPosts: 262Member
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by Boneserino
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    Well, this game used to be an ambitious sandbox game called Middle Earth Online, that focused on simulating life in Middle Earth.

     

    Then WoW got big, Turbine got scared, fired most of their devs, hired devs fresh out of college, and in 9 months fast tracked this game into LotRO, instanced quest grinding linear game with boring mechanics and atmosphere ruined by invisible walls, instances, and bad gameplay. The only good features in the games are relics from Middle Earth Online.

     

    It's a shame what happened and I wish another company could get a shot with it. But so long as a publisher is behind it, we'll never get a good MMO in Middle Earth.

    Here is a link  to which you speak.

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/06/21/the-game-archaeologist-and-the-what-ifs-middle-earth-online/

    Be sure to read the last paragraph.

     

    Still, calling Lotro a  greatest wasted potential   is stretching it a bit much.   The game is fine on its own and if someone wants to try making a Middle Earth Online then more power to them.

     

    Game is fine on its own IF it was not carrying the name of LORD OF THE RINGS. Such a game cannot be just "fine" it has to be fucking EPIC.

    The movies came close to that mark and are worthy of the name. This game is a fucking disgrace and not worthy of carrying the name of Tolkien's masterpiece.

    So how do you really feel about this VIDEO GAME?

  • Whiskey_SamWhiskey_Sam Lynchburg, VAPosts: 294Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    LOTRO as it was during pre-Moria was an honorable game adaptation of LOTR, even though the MEO project was must better and closer to Tolkien. There's a reason why I pre-ordered this game after playing the beta in 2006/2007.

    During Moria, it dropped to average, at best, Moria being brighter and more colorful than a disco nightclub on a Saturday night... not to mention the addition of Sith Lords... err sorry, Runekeepers, and seeing elves riding giant goats all over the place.

    After that, each new expansion except maybe Mirkwood made the game less LOTR and more "generic fantasy MMORPG". The last outrage was a random band of adventurers entering Orthanc, and surviving (and even besting!) Saruman in his own home.

    This game is no longer LOTR, no longer Tolkien. It's a cash shop driven money sucker trying to empty as many wallets as possible before finally closing down.

    Amen, brother.

    ___________________________
    Have flask; will travel.

  • DestaiDestai Detroit, MIPosts: 574Member
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    LOTRO as it was during pre-Moria was an honorable game adaptation of LOTR, even though the MEO project was must better and closer to Tolkien. There's a reason why I pre-ordered this game after playing the beta in 2006/2007.

    During Moria, it dropped to average, at best, Moria being brighter and more colorful than a disco nightclub on a Saturday night... not to mention the addition of Sith Lords... err sorry, Runekeepers, and seeing elves riding giant goats all over the place.

    After that, each new expansion except maybe Mirkwood made the game less LOTR and more "generic fantasy MMORPG". The last outrage was a random band of adventurers entering Orthanc, and surviving (and even besting!) Saruman in his own home.

    This game is no longer LOTR, no longer Tolkien. It's a cash shop driven money sucker trying to empty as many wallets as possible before finally closing down.

    Amen.

  • BoneserinoBoneserino London, ONPosts: 1,623Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

    Part of the issue is the owners of the IP get a lot of say in what a game CAN'T do. They want to preserve their lore and that means that in a world like LotRO (and other lotr games) have to follow the storyline of the fellowship bringing the ring to be destroyed and doing it in the manner that they do.

     

    So either you make a more single player/co-op game where you get to play the heroes in the scenes and smash tons of bad guys. Or you make a game where a lot of people play, but no one is in the fellow so the rest of you just adventure and kill random no names in different places and live a pretty common, non legendary, life.

     

     

    Non-IP games (or game only IPs which continue on in in a game only franchise) are so so so so so so so so much better for game design as they give complete freedom to developers to make great experiences for the players and bend the world as they need to. However, too many companies are stuck in this mindset of "It needs to be an existing IP for us to even consider it" for some strange reason given that pretty much all of the best sellers/most successful games in video game history have all been original game IPs and many of the worst selling/worst performing of all time are existing IPs. Go figure.

    And this is a good point.  

     

    The game wasn't designed like Middle Earth Online was meant to be designed.  This game was designed along the lines of the books and movies, so there is meant to be a story and progression through it.   Still the amount of freedom they give you to explore, is in my mind, still very very impressive!   Its head over tails better than Swtor in that respect.

     

    As for why companies are stuck in this mindset, it is pretty obvious.   These type of games are meant to be entertainment.   They are not meant to be survivalist sandboxes or E Sport games.   They are meant for people who enjoy the lore to have a story and a world to play in.  Many people love these IP's and wish for the opportunity to put themselves in such a world.  The market for this with an established IP is already there and therefore customers are pretty much guaranteed.   Its actually a win for both sides, gamers and developers.

     

    Unfortunately the ones that lose and end up calling the game, " a F**king disgrace!!! " as one illustrious poster did, are the hardcores with their sandbox esport fetishes.

     

    Tough luck guys, but why you came here looking for that, I have no idea.

     

     

     

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

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