Originally posted by ThomasN7 It is Turbine. What did you expect ? It still amazes me that people actually think Turbine is actually good at what they do. They are an average developer at best in my opinion. Whoever granted them the rights to this ip should have their heads checked. I love Lotr and giving the rights to Turbine was a huge fail. It is really disappointing.
This is so unfair. Please do tell me one better adaptation of any book or movie to a video game , not to say MMO.
As for point made about breaching the lore soon after you leave the Shire.
Point being made, its the game. As far as growing pipeweed and gossiping would be far more fitting. I doubt that anyone including you would manage to play 6 years time of watch the cabbage grow. Not even 1 week.
Its a game.
As for lore ending with Shire. I also beg to differ.
Just that climb down the secret passage to Rivendell was worth awe to any Tolkien fan.
I think you underestimate how many people would like to explore a Middle Earth without the 'gaming' aspects. Not everyone wants to be a hero - some people just want to explore other worlds and lore. Look at the Animal Crossing franchise to see the mass appeal of this kind of thing.
To be honest, its getting a bit old seeing thousands of epic heroes running around. It would be nice to see more focus on farmers, merchants, craftsmen, scouts, explorers and entertainers. Things that make a living breathing world, rather than 'Epic Loot Piñata Quest'.
But I digress, I think we are a long way off anything that resembles this.
It popped up on the home page of this site, so I just put my opinion on the game in here. Lots of things made it great I literally loved this game for a good long time and then they made many poor decisions with its direction. do you still play it ?
Originally posted by fantasyfreak112 How did LOTRO have so much potential? lol it was the most obvious WoW clone ever. In a way this game paved the way for all the other WoW clones we see today. This game deserves no praise of mine; in fact, the exact opposite.
hmmmm, some of that could come from closed beta or at least early in the game's life.
Remember, the old forest was extremely difficult to navigate and was very dangerous, there are areas around Bree that are there "just because".
North east Bree area is the one that comes to mind. You can actually go there and feel like you are exploring middle earth just to explore.
For earlier players, beta testers (of which I was one) the game felt different. Oh sure it had some of the same mechanics as WoW but it felt a bit different. As time went by things focused more and it became more of what it is today.
It doesn't really matter if it wasn't like WoW in beta. I played it at release and a few random times thereafter and it is the most obvious WoW clone ever, short of Rift. 1 or 2 different features doesn't change this.
COD, BF, rainbow six and any other fps is a clone of 007 back in the day. These games all have their unique differences as does lotro has it's differences from wow. They may not be huge in your eyes but for over six years this game has been pumping out content and doing a pretty good job and a lot of players enjoy it. To bad 90% of mmos are clones of one another maybe your just playing the wrong games.
Originally posted by ingphorlas It popped up on the home page of this site, so I just put my opinion on the game in here. Lots of things made it great I literally loved this game for a good long time and then they made many poor decisions with its direction. do you still play it ?
Yeah I was in beta and been on and off since have over 3 months of game time played (2100hrs) I don't think it's perfect but for some reason I always go back to it .
The reason Elves run around Bree is because it is a MMO - No MMO makes sense of any IP
In SWTOR every class can play Bounty Hunter
In SWG Jedi were everywhere in a time frame where there were few Jedi
In STO every one is a captain
well they "could'. However, that would just pare down the playerbase.
I mean, you "could' have a lord of the rings game where players could only enter the areas where their races would be. It's not impossible. Whether or not players like that is another thing.
mmo's tend not to make "sense" of the IP's because they want to cater to a larger group of players who probably want to experience the game in a way that resonates with them.
So sure, there are Star Trek players who would have been very happy to have a ship where there was only one captain, someone played the engineer, someone played the medic, etc.
I could easily see it being done and I can easily imagine players wanting to play it. I could also imagine a lot of disgruntled players who all wanted to be kirk.
I don't think the reason it because it's an mmo but that to get the larger group of players, mmo's tend to compress timelines, make certain things accessible, etc.
But there is nothing stopping an online game from adopting strict rules about the world it's made in other than money.
It is also the players that make the game too, and while it my not seem right for Elves to run around Bree, I do not see why it should be restricted. Dwarves visited the Shire in the Hobbit. Also Hobbits mainly live in the Shire but some also live in Bree and some in Gondor and Rohan. Is there anything in the lore to say that Elves are forbidden to be in Bree?
The reason Elves run around Bree is because it is a MMO - No MMO makes sense of any IP
In SWTOR every class can play Bounty Hunter
In SWG Jedi were everywhere in a time frame where there were few Jedi
In STO every one is a captain
well they "could'. However, that would just pare down the playerbase.
I mean, you "could' have a lord of the rings game where players could only enter the areas where their races would be. It's not impossible. Whether or not players like that is another thing.
mmo's tend not to make "sense" of the IP's because they want to cater to a larger group of players who probably want to experience the game in a way that resonates with them.
So sure, there are Star Trek players who would have been very happy to have a ship where there was only one captain, someone played the engineer, someone played the medic, etc.
I could easily see it being done and I can easily imagine players wanting to play it. I could also imagine a lot of disgruntled players who all wanted to be kirk.
I don't think the reason it because it's an mmo but that to get the larger group of players, mmo's tend to compress timelines, make certain things accessible, etc.
But there is nothing stopping an online game from adopting strict rules about the world it's made in other than money.
It is also the players that make the game too, and while it my not seem right for Elves to run around Bree, I do not see why it should be restricted. Dwarves visited the Shire in the Hobbit. Also Hobbits mainly live in the Shire but some also live in Bree and some in Gondor and Rohan. Is there anything in the lore to say that Elves are forbidden to be in Bree?
Are you saying that dwarves, in general made frequent visits to the shire or are you just pointing out the story of the Hobbit?
One is an indication of how the races of this world interacted and one is an important plot point.
I know that hobbits were in Bree.
Given that the races kept to themselves it seems reaching that elves were hanging around the shire. That's not really their modus operandi. But if you know of something I don't I'd be more than happy to read it! since Sam was so excited to see elves my guess is that they didn't come to the shire. At least not in his lifetime.
We only know what the stories give us as well as Tokien's notes.
So sure, hobbits lived close to Gondor. I don't remember anything mentioning hobbits hanging around lothlorien or as I mentioned elves hanging around the shire or bree. I think dwarves could probably be in Bree as well.
But maybe your point is correct in that there is one thing to be following the story and another to acknowlege that if this was a world then in some cases certain races would run into each other.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
To be honest, its getting a bit old seeing thousands of epic heroes running around. It would be nice to see more focus on farmers, merchants, craftsmen, scouts, explorers and entertainers. Things that make a living breathing world, rather than 'Epic Loot Piñata Quest'.
I see comment similar to this for single player cRPGs, players are saying that "saving the world" plots gets old and that they want something else, more option to explore, more downtime activities, but when they do get another type of plot they cry it's a crap story and that their character don't feel heroic enough. When they get exploration, they cry the gameworld is confusing and that it takes too much time to get somewhere.
You will always see epic heroes running around, because that is what the majority of players wants: feel powerful without too much brain requirement.
In the case of Lotro, the early areas (Bree, Shire) do a good job at showing you as just the next guy that happen to be mixed up with some important stuff. I mean, delivering post isn't exactly an epic tasks. I have never been farther than that in Lotro so I can comment about "later". I also think that the Shire is "spot on" when it comes to the lore, it's my favorite MMO zone in all the games I played.
Are you saying that dwarves, in general made frequent visits to the shire or are you just pointing out the story of the Hobbit?
Not quite frequent, but significantly more than the other two races. True, not visiting the Shire, just travelling through it.
Great thread. I'm with Lobotomist on that I think Turbine made a great job with LotRO. (though I'm not fully agree with him on the movies insulting the books... The movies had issues, a few serious one even, but insulting maybe a bit too harsh word for them )
Harafnir mentioned the action-LotR on xbox, well, if it's confession-time I've already posted in the LMO thread that while I never liked Lego, I had so much fun with Lego LotR neat little game, but not a perfect fit for the IP.
And if IP, I admit Picard has some truth with the Orthanc raid... Purely as a game it's nicely done, the mechanics are fun, etc. On the other hand, little Sarumans running up and down, seriously? Khm. Let's get back to exploring and strolling around the world instead. (at least for me)
edit: for Trek, I'd love to have an option (or even a full-fledged minigame) to playing the crew. The ship interior is already there in STO, same with the consoles, it'd be great to populate them. I don't even care about the bridge, give me the engine room
For the type of game it was designed to be, I think LOTRO did a decent enough job....at least in the early parts of SoA. Decent, not awesome, not as good as I would have liked but they really did ok to begin with.
Personaly I would have much prefered the game MEO was planned to be....and I think that would have served the feel of Middle Earth much, much better. However, if you are going to make a standard Themepark style MMO....LOTRO really didn't do a bad job of the IP.
I DO think they really did start to slip-up on that considerably toward the end of SoA and definately into Moria. They definately seemed to be drifting toward a High-Magic, generic High Fantasy setting then Middle Earth.....and I think that was purposefull on thier part...and a wrong move, getting away from what was strongest and most distinct about LOTRO.
After MoM....I think it's been a bit hit and miss on the Middle Earth. Some aspects have been really pretty good at recapturing the feel of the IP......others very much not so.
I don't play LOTRO anymore......alot of my objections to the game in more recent days are based on Turbines business practices and gameplay design choices rather then themeatic.
I think the art-style, art-work and scenery HAVE actualy done a very good job in capturing the feel. In terms of world and quest design.....really the high point was SoA save at the very end. MoM was a disaster, IMO, as far as that goes. Since then some of the actualy has gotten better and harkened back a bit to the SoA days....other stuff...not so much.
In terms of gameplay design choices, I think LOTRO really hasn't done a good job in representing Middle Earth. SoA was not too terrible in that regard but it has gone progressively downhill since then, IMO.
I do agree with the OP......in order to do true justice to the IP, the Developers would have had to set out to design a VERY, VERY different type of game then what LOTRO is....very different then most MMO's. That's obviously a huge risk and a huge challenge but it is what it is.
Well, this game used to be an ambitious sandbox game called Middle Earth Online, that focused on simulating life in Middle Earth.
Then WoW got big, Turbine got scared, fired most of their devs, hired devs fresh out of college, and in 9 months fast tracked this game into LotRO, instanced quest grinding linear game with boring mechanics and atmosphere ruined by invisible walls, instances, and bad gameplay. The only good features in the games are relics from Middle Earth Online.
It's a shame what happened and I wish another company could get a shot with it. But so long as a publisher is behind it, we'll never get a good MMO in Middle Earth.
Still, calling Lotro a greatest wasted potential is stretching it a bit much. The game is fine on its own and if someone wants to try making a Middle Earth Online then more power to them.
Game is fine on its own IF it was not carrying the name of LORD OF THE RINGS. Such a game cannot be just "fine" it has to be fucking EPIC.
The movies came close to that mark and are worthy of the name. This game is a fucking disgrace and not worthy of carrying the name of Tolkien's masterpiece.
Well, this game used to be an ambitious sandbox game called Middle Earth Online, that focused on simulating life in Middle Earth.
Then WoW got big, Turbine got scared, fired most of their devs, hired devs fresh out of college, and in 9 months fast tracked this game into LotRO, instanced quest grinding linear game with boring mechanics and atmosphere ruined by invisible walls, instances, and bad gameplay. The only good features in the games are relics from Middle Earth Online.
It's a shame what happened and I wish another company could get a shot with it. But so long as a publisher is behind it, we'll never get a good MMO in Middle Earth.
Still, calling Lotro a greatest wasted potential is stretching it a bit much. The game is fine on its own and if someone wants to try making a Middle Earth Online then more power to them.
Game is fine on its own IF it was not carrying the name of LORD OF THE RINGS. Such a game cannot be just "fine" it has to be fucking EPIC.
The movies came close to that mark and are worthy of the name. This game is a fucking disgrace and not worthy of carrying the name of Tolkien's masterpiece.
LOTRO as it was during pre-Moria was an honorable game adaptation of LOTR, even though the MEO project was must better and closer to Tolkien. There's a reason why I pre-ordered this game after playing the beta in 2006/2007.
During Moria, it dropped to average, at best, Moria being brighter and more colorful than a disco nightclub on a Saturday night... not to mention the addition of Sith Lords... err sorry, Runekeepers, and seeing elves riding giant goats all over the place.
After that, each new expansion except maybe Mirkwood made the game less LOTR and more "generic fantasy MMORPG". The last outrage was a random band of adventurers entering Orthanc, and surviving (and even besting!) Saruman in his own home.
This game is no longer LOTR, no longer Tolkien. It's a cash shop driven money sucker trying to empty as many wallets as possible before finally closing down.
Amen, brother.
___________________________ Have flask; will travel.
LOTRO as it was during pre-Moria was an honorable game adaptation of LOTR, even though the MEO project was must better and closer to Tolkien. There's a reason why I pre-ordered this game after playing the beta in 2006/2007.
During Moria, it dropped to average, at best, Moria being brighter and more colorful than a disco nightclub on a Saturday night... not to mention the addition of Sith Lords... err sorry, Runekeepers, and seeing elves riding giant goats all over the place.
After that, each new expansion except maybe Mirkwood made the game less LOTR and more "generic fantasy MMORPG". The last outrage was a random band of adventurers entering Orthanc, and surviving (and even besting!) Saruman in his own home.
This game is no longer LOTR, no longer Tolkien. It's a cash shop driven money sucker trying to empty as many wallets as possible before finally closing down.
Part of the issue is the owners of the IP get a lot of say in what a game CAN'T do. They want to preserve their lore and that means that in a world like LotRO (and other lotr games) have to follow the storyline of the fellowship bringing the ring to be destroyed and doing it in the manner that they do.
So either you make a more single player/co-op game where you get to play the heroes in the scenes and smash tons of bad guys. Or you make a game where a lot of people play, but no one is in the fellow so the rest of you just adventure and kill random no names in different places and live a pretty common, non legendary, life.
Non-IP games (or game only IPs which continue on in in a game only franchise) are so so so so so so so so much better for game design as they give complete freedom to developers to make great experiences for the players and bend the world as they need to. However, too many companies are stuck in this mindset of "It needs to be an existing IP for us to even consider it" for some strange reason given that pretty much all of the best sellers/most successful games in video game history have all been original game IPs and many of the worst selling/worst performing of all time are existing IPs. Go figure.
And this is a good point.
The game wasn't designed like Middle Earth Online was meant to be designed. This game was designed along the lines of the books and movies, so there is meant to be a story and progression through it. Still the amount of freedom they give you to explore, is in my mind, still very very impressive! Its head over tails better than Swtor in that respect.
As for why companies are stuck in this mindset, it is pretty obvious. These type of games are meant to be entertainment. They are not meant to be survivalist sandboxes or E Sport games. They are meant for people who enjoy the lore to have a story and a world to play in. Many people love these IP's and wish for the opportunity to put themselves in such a world. The market for this with an established IP is already there and therefore customers are pretty much guaranteed. Its actually a win for both sides, gamers and developers.
Unfortunately the ones that lose and end up calling the game, " a F**king disgrace!!! " as one illustrious poster did, are the hardcores with their sandbox esport fetishes.
Tough luck guys, but why you came here looking for that, I have no idea.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
LOTRO as it was during pre-Moria was an honorable game adaptation of LOTR, even though the MEO project was must better and closer to Tolkien. There's a reason why I pre-ordered this game after playing the beta in 2006/2007.
During Moria, it dropped to average, at best, Moria being brighter and more colorful than a disco nightclub on a Saturday night... not to mention the addition of Sith Lords... err sorry, Runekeepers, and seeing elves riding giant goats all over the place.
After that, each new expansion except maybe Mirkwood made the game less LOTR and more "generic fantasy MMORPG". The last outrage was a random band of adventurers entering Orthanc, and surviving (and even besting!) Saruman in his own home.
This game is no longer LOTR, no longer Tolkien. It's a cash shop driven money sucker trying to empty as many wallets as possible before finally closing down.
Part of the issue is the owners of the IP get a lot of say in what a game CAN'T do. They want to preserve their lore and that means that in a world like LotRO (and other lotr games) have to follow the storyline of the fellowship bringing the ring to be destroyed and doing it in the manner that they do.
So either you make a more single player/co-op game where you get to play the heroes in the scenes and smash tons of bad guys. Or you make a game where a lot of people play, but no one is in the fellow so the rest of you just adventure and kill random no names in different places and live a pretty common, non legendary, life.
Non-IP games (or game only IPs which continue on in in a game only franchise) are so so so so so so so so much better for game design as they give complete freedom to developers to make great experiences for the players and bend the world as they need to. However, too many companies are stuck in this mindset of "It needs to be an existing IP for us to even consider it" for some strange reason given that pretty much all of the best sellers/most successful games in video game history have all been original game IPs and many of the worst selling/worst performing of all time are existing IPs. Go figure.
And this is a good point.
The game wasn't designed like Middle Earth Online was meant to be designed. This game was designed along the lines of the books and movies, so there is meant to be a story and progression through it. Still the amount of freedom they give you to explore, is in my mind, still very very impressive! Its head over tails better than Swtor in that respect.
As for why companies are stuck in this mindset, it is pretty obvious. These type of games are meant to be entertainment. They are not meant to be survivalist sandboxes or E Sport games. They are meant for people who enjoy the lore to have a story and a world to play in. Many people love these IP's and wish for the opportunity to put themselves in such a world. The market for this with an established IP is already there and therefore customers are pretty much guaranteed. Its actually a win for both sides, gamers and developers.
Unfortunately the ones that lose and end up calling the game, " a F**king disgrace!!! " as one illustrious poster did, are the hardcores with their sandbox esport fetishes.
Tough luck guys, but why you came here looking for that, I have no idea.
I didnt mention anything about a sandbox. Have you read the books, which you claim this game was designed after? Seeing as you say that you have no idea what we came here looking for, I am guessing you did not.
Those books have incredible depth and richness and the 12 hour movie trilogy captured a glimpse of that. This game has nowhere near the depth of even the movies, let alone the books.
So you can try to use the excuse that just because I am a sandbox fan then what I say have no merit but what you dont know is that I am also a Tolkien fan. Read the trilogies, Bilbo and Silmarilion as well as read several articles and a biography of Tolkien to understand where he got the information for the incredible depth of his books about Middle Earth. So I am talking from that point of view and compared to that, this game is, unequivocally and undeniably a disgrace.
So you can have your "entertainment" but Tolkien's work was not that simple so LOTRO was a win for developers and maybe for some gamers but for Tolkien fans? Fuck no.
LOTRO as it was during pre-Moria was an honorable game adaptation of LOTR, even though the MEO project was must better and closer to Tolkien. There's a reason why I pre-ordered this game after playing the beta in 2006/2007.
During Moria, it dropped to average, at best, Moria being brighter and more colorful than a disco nightclub on a Saturday night... not to mention the addition of Sith Lords... err sorry, Runekeepers, and seeing elves riding giant goats all over the place.
After that, each new expansion except maybe Mirkwood made the game less LOTR and more "generic fantasy MMORPG". The last outrage was a random band of adventurers entering Orthanc, and surviving (and even besting!) Saruman in his own home.
This game is no longer LOTR, no longer Tolkien. It's a cash shop driven money sucker trying to empty as many wallets as possible before finally closing down.
Amen.
/Thread
Hallelujah!!
You are right!! It is not Lotro or Tolkien. It is a game based on the lore of the books. If you can't accept that it might stray a little from the original material, as pretty much any creative project does, well then, we are sorry it does not appeal to you.
Ok! Can you all move along now, I am trying to get my wallet out.....
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
LOTRO as it was during pre-Moria was an honorable game adaptation of LOTR, even though the MEO project was must better and closer to Tolkien. There's a reason why I pre-ordered this game after playing the beta in 2006/2007.
During Moria, it dropped to average, at best, Moria being brighter and more colorful than a disco nightclub on a Saturday night... not to mention the addition of Sith Lords... err sorry, Runekeepers, and seeing elves riding giant goats all over the place.
After that, each new expansion except maybe Mirkwood made the game less LOTR and more "generic fantasy MMORPG". The last outrage was a random band of adventurers entering Orthanc, and surviving (and even besting!) Saruman in his own home.
This game is no longer LOTR, no longer Tolkien. It's a cash shop driven money sucker trying to empty as many wallets as possible before finally closing down.
Amen.
/Thread
Hallelujah!!
You are right!! It is not Lotro or Tolkien. It is a game based on the lore of the books. If you can't accept that it might stray a little from the original material, as pretty much any creative project does, well then, we are sorry it does not appeal to you.
Ok! Can you all move along now, I am trying to get my wallet out.....
Stray away a little from the original material? LOL
LOTRO is based on Tolkiens lore maybe on the level of a children book for five year olds.
The failing of this game was due to the company abandoning what made them what they are (were) and making a themepark clone based on level and gear progression.
You CANNOT tell a long story by forcing players through leveling and gear grind. All you do is block players from the story. The game has very few long term new players because nobody wants to take months grinding to get anywhere near the current content. Content inflation is the largest failing of the themepark model. The only way it can work is if you make all previous content bypassed quickly which makes it meaningless. Wow did this because they only focus on current story and all story previous is made pointless.
Lotro cannot do this or it no longer tells a story. Some elements of the story must be preserved but only hurts the game more than helps it as a vertical progression game alienates new players from the majority of the player base.
If Lotro was closer to AC it might have been more successful and I only specifically refer to one element. In AC there was a very high level cap but levels meant much less than they do in most themepark mmos. A level 150 character could easily participate in the majority of content a level 200 could. Even a level 100 often could. Many players sit at level cap for YEARS and still enjoy the content and all new content added to the game. Leveling wasn't the focus. Story and game play was and you weren't gated by 99+% of the levels in the game.
If Lotro was more horizontal in progression you could have the majority of the player base able to enjoy the majority of the content. The mmo model is what ruined Lotro.
The failing of this game was due to the company abandoning what made them what they are (were) and making a themepark clone based on level and gear progression.
You CANNOT tell a long story by forcing players through leveling and gear grind. All you do is block players from the story. The game has very few long term new players because nobody wants to take months grinding to get anywhere near the current content. Content inflation is the largest failing of the themepark model. The only way it can work is if you make all previous content bypassed quickly which makes it meaningless. Wow did this because they only focus on current story and all story previous is made pointless.
Lotro cannot do this or it no longer tells a story. Some elements of the story must be preserved but only hurts the game more than helps it as a vertical progression game alienates new players from the majority of the player base.
If Lotro was closer to AC it might have been more successful and I only specifically refer to one element. In AC there was a very high level cap but levels meant much less than they do in most themepark mmos. A level 150 character could easily participate in the majority of content a level 200 could. Even a level 100 often could. Many players sit at level cap for YEARS and still enjoy the content and all new content added to the game. Leveling wasn't the focus. Story and game play was and you weren't gated by 99+% of the levels in the game.
If Lotro was more horizontal in progression you could have the majority of the player base able to enjoy the majority of the content. The mmo model is what ruined Lotro.
So you are saying you want a level 1 player to be able to jump in the game and do Helms Deep, is the way I read your post.
And then maybe after you kill Sauron, you can go back to the beginning of the game and see what all the fuss was about. Hey I just killed Sauron, that wasn't so tough, what took you guys so long?
I just don't get it.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
The failing of this game was due to the company abandoning what made them what they are (were) and making a themepark clone based on level and gear progression.
You CANNOT tell a long story by forcing players through leveling and gear grind. All you do is block players from the story.
If Lotro was closer to AC it might have been more successful
This. When Turbine scrapped their sandbox plans and made Middle Earth Online into a WoW clone, the game never recovered.
For those who don't know that this game, all the way up until the alpha friends and family point of development, was called Middle Earth Online, and was a totally different kind of game...
"
Well, this game used to be an ambitious sandbox game called Middle Earth Online, that focused on simulating life in Middle Earth.
Then WoW got big, Turbine got scared, fired most of their devs, hired devs fresh out of college, and in 9 months fast tracked this game into LotRO, instanced quest grinding linear game with boring mechanics and atmosphere ruined by invisible walls, instances, and bad gameplay. The only good features in the games are relics from Middle Earth Online.
It's a shame what happened and I wish another company could get a shot with it. But so long as a publisher is behind it, we'll never get a good MMO in Middle Earth."
So you are saying you want a level 1 player to be able to jump in the game and do Helms Deep, is the way I read your post.
And then maybe after you kill Sauron, you can go back to the beginning of the game and see what all the fuss was about. Hey I just killed Sauron, that wasn't so tough, what took you guys so long?
I think some people just have a kneejerk Sandbox>themepark reaction. In many cases I actually agree with that but for Turbine to tell the story they wanted to tell, which followed the fellowship, I think they needed levels. The whole D&D leveling process seems *based* on the LOTR story. "You don't simply walk into Mordor..." You need to go through the journey step by step to get the impact of the story.
Could they have made a cool "life in Middle Earth" sandbox game? Sure and I'd have played the hell out of that but it wouldn't be able to tell the same kind of story. Look at EVE Online, it's pretty much impossible for CCP to tell a coherent story with everyone running this way and that doing their own thing. "Middle Earth Online" would've probably been the same thing. Probably a fun game but the story would've definitely suffered.
So you are saying you want a level 1 player to be able to jump in the game and do Helms Deep, is the way I read your post.
And then maybe after you kill Sauron, you can go back to the beginning of the game and see what all the fuss was about. Hey I just killed Sauron, that wasn't so tough, what took you guys so long?
I think some people just have a kneejerk Sandbox>themepark reaction. In many cases I actually agree with that but for Turbine to tell the story they wanted to tell, which followed the fellowship, I think they needed levels. The whole D&D leveling process seems *based* on the LOTR story. "You don't simply walk into Mordor..." You need to go through the journey step by step to get the impact of the story.
Could they have made a cool "life in Middle Earth" sandbox game? Sure and I'd have played the hell out of that but it wouldn't be able to tell the same kind of story. Look at EVE Online, it's pretty much impossible for CCP to tell a coherent story with everyone running this way and that doing their own thing. "Middle Earth Online" would've probably been the same thing. Probably a fun game but the story would've definitely suffered.
The story already suffers. Right now the only story in LotRO exists as quest text before you close out of it and follow the yellow brick road. Instances do some scripted BS that has no impact on the actual game world.
Turbine, with MEO could have done what they did with AC, tell monthly stories within the living virtual world. There are a ton of ways to tell a story without instancing and quest grinding. Quest grinding actually undermines storytelling to a massive degree.
And Eve's PvE has just as much story as LotRO.
Besides, with a world as fully fleshed out as Middle Earth, I think most people wanted to experience LIFE there. Not be forced through a scripted path with a lifeless world of cutout cardboard facades. Theres a reason LotRO's tagline was changed from Live in Middle Earth to Fight Through Middle Earth
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I think you underestimate how many people would like to explore a Middle Earth without the 'gaming' aspects. Not everyone wants to be a hero - some people just want to explore other worlds and lore. Look at the Animal Crossing franchise to see the mass appeal of this kind of thing.
To be honest, its getting a bit old seeing thousands of epic heroes running around. It would be nice to see more focus on farmers, merchants, craftsmen, scouts, explorers and entertainers. Things that make a living breathing world, rather than 'Epic Loot Piñata Quest'.
But I digress, I think we are a long way off anything that resembles this.
COD, BF, rainbow six and any other fps is a clone of 007 back in the day. These games all have their unique differences as does lotro has it's differences from wow. They may not be huge in your eyes but for over six years this game has been pumping out content and doing a pretty good job and a lot of players enjoy it. To bad 90% of mmos are clones of one another maybe your just playing the wrong games.
Yeah I was in beta and been on and off since have over 3 months of game time played (2100hrs) I don't think it's perfect but for some reason I always go back to it .It is also the players that make the game too, and while it my not seem right for Elves to run around Bree, I do not see why it should be restricted. Dwarves visited the Shire in the Hobbit. Also Hobbits mainly live in the Shire but some also live in Bree and some in Gondor and Rohan. Is there anything in the lore to say that Elves are forbidden to be in Bree?
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Are you saying that dwarves, in general made frequent visits to the shire or are you just pointing out the story of the Hobbit?
One is an indication of how the races of this world interacted and one is an important plot point.
I know that hobbits were in Bree.
Given that the races kept to themselves it seems reaching that elves were hanging around the shire. That's not really their modus operandi. But if you know of something I don't I'd be more than happy to read it! since Sam was so excited to see elves my guess is that they didn't come to the shire. At least not in his lifetime.
We only know what the stories give us as well as Tokien's notes.
So sure, hobbits lived close to Gondor. I don't remember anything mentioning hobbits hanging around lothlorien or as I mentioned elves hanging around the shire or bree. I think dwarves could probably be in Bree as well.
But maybe your point is correct in that there is one thing to be following the story and another to acknowlege that if this was a world then in some cases certain races would run into each other.
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I see comment similar to this for single player cRPGs, players are saying that "saving the world" plots gets old and that they want something else, more option to explore, more downtime activities, but when they do get another type of plot they cry it's a crap story and that their character don't feel heroic enough. When they get exploration, they cry the gameworld is confusing and that it takes too much time to get somewhere.
You will always see epic heroes running around, because that is what the majority of players wants: feel powerful without too much brain requirement.
In the case of Lotro, the early areas (Bree, Shire) do a good job at showing you as just the next guy that happen to be mixed up with some important stuff. I mean, delivering post isn't exactly an epic tasks. I have never been farther than that in Lotro so I can comment about "later". I also think that the Shire is "spot on" when it comes to the lore, it's my favorite MMO zone in all the games I played.
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Not quite frequent, but significantly more than the other two races. True, not visiting the Shire, just travelling through it.
Great thread. I'm with Lobotomist on that I think Turbine made a great job with LotRO. (though I'm not fully agree with him on the movies insulting the books... The movies had issues, a few serious one even, but insulting maybe a bit too harsh word for them
)
Harafnir mentioned the action-LotR on xbox, well, if it's confession-time I've already posted in the LMO thread that while I never liked Lego, I had so much fun with Lego LotR
neat little game, but not a perfect fit for the IP.
And if IP, I admit Picard has some truth with the Orthanc raid... Purely as a game it's nicely done, the mechanics are fun, etc. On the other hand, little Sarumans running up and down, seriously? Khm. Let's get back to exploring and strolling around the world instead. (at least for me)
edit: for Trek, I'd love to have an option (or even a full-fledged minigame) to playing the crew. The ship interior is already there in STO, same with the consoles, it'd be great to populate them. I don't even care about the bridge, give me the engine room
For the type of game it was designed to be, I think LOTRO did a decent enough job....at least in the early parts of SoA. Decent, not awesome, not as good as I would have liked but they really did ok to begin with.
Personaly I would have much prefered the game MEO was planned to be....and I think that would have served the feel of Middle Earth much, much better. However, if you are going to make a standard Themepark style MMO....LOTRO really didn't do a bad job of the IP.
I DO think they really did start to slip-up on that considerably toward the end of SoA and definately into Moria. They definately seemed to be drifting toward a High-Magic, generic High Fantasy setting then Middle Earth.....and I think that was purposefull on thier part...and a wrong move, getting away from what was strongest and most distinct about LOTRO.
After MoM....I think it's been a bit hit and miss on the Middle Earth. Some aspects have been really pretty good at recapturing the feel of the IP......others very much not so.
I don't play LOTRO anymore......alot of my objections to the game in more recent days are based on Turbines business practices and gameplay design choices rather then themeatic.
I think the art-style, art-work and scenery HAVE actualy done a very good job in capturing the feel. In terms of world and quest design.....really the high point was SoA save at the very end. MoM was a disaster, IMO, as far as that goes. Since then some of the actualy has gotten better and harkened back a bit to the SoA days....other stuff...not so much.
In terms of gameplay design choices, I think LOTRO really hasn't done a good job in representing Middle Earth. SoA was not too terrible in that regard but it has gone progressively downhill since then, IMO.
I do agree with the OP......in order to do true justice to the IP, the Developers would have had to set out to design a VERY, VERY different type of game then what LOTRO is....very different then most MMO's. That's obviously a huge risk and a huge challenge but it is what it is.
Game is fine on its own IF it was not carrying the name of LORD OF THE RINGS. Such a game cannot be just "fine" it has to be fucking EPIC.
The movies came close to that mark and are worthy of the name. This game is a fucking disgrace and not worthy of carrying the name of Tolkien's masterpiece.
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So how do you really feel about this VIDEO GAME?
Amen, brother.
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Amen.
And this is a good point.
The game wasn't designed like Middle Earth Online was meant to be designed. This game was designed along the lines of the books and movies, so there is meant to be a story and progression through it. Still the amount of freedom they give you to explore, is in my mind, still very very impressive! Its head over tails better than Swtor in that respect.
As for why companies are stuck in this mindset, it is pretty obvious. These type of games are meant to be entertainment. They are not meant to be survivalist sandboxes or E Sport games. They are meant for people who enjoy the lore to have a story and a world to play in. Many people love these IP's and wish for the opportunity to put themselves in such a world. The market for this with an established IP is already there and therefore customers are pretty much guaranteed. Its actually a win for both sides, gamers and developers.
Unfortunately the ones that lose and end up calling the game, " a F**king disgrace!!! " as one illustrious poster did, are the hardcores with their sandbox esport fetishes.
Tough luck guys, but why you came here looking for that, I have no idea.
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I didnt mention anything about a sandbox. Have you read the books, which you claim this game was designed after? Seeing as you say that you have no idea what we came here looking for, I am guessing you did not.
Those books have incredible depth and richness and the 12 hour movie trilogy captured a glimpse of that. This game has nowhere near the depth of even the movies, let alone the books.
So you can try to use the excuse that just because I am a sandbox fan then what I say have no merit but what you dont know is that I am also a Tolkien fan. Read the trilogies, Bilbo and Silmarilion as well as read several articles and a biography of Tolkien to understand where he got the information for the incredible depth of his books about Middle Earth. So I am talking from that point of view and compared to that, this game is, unequivocally and undeniably a disgrace.
So you can have your "entertainment" but Tolkien's work was not that simple so LOTRO was a win for developers and maybe for some gamers but for Tolkien fans? Fuck no.
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Hallelujah!!
You are right!! It is not Lotro or Tolkien. It is a game based on the lore of the books. If you can't accept that it might stray a little from the original material, as pretty much any creative project does, well then, we are sorry it does not appeal to you.
Ok! Can you all move along now, I am trying to get my wallet out.....
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Stray away a little from the original material? LOL
LOTRO is based on Tolkiens lore maybe on the level of a children book for five year olds.
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Like I said, this game wasn't designed for the hardcore dummies, even if they do act like 5 year olds a lot of the time!
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The failing of this game was due to the company abandoning what made them what they are (were) and making a themepark clone based on level and gear progression.
You CANNOT tell a long story by forcing players through leveling and gear grind. All you do is block players from the story. The game has very few long term new players because nobody wants to take months grinding to get anywhere near the current content. Content inflation is the largest failing of the themepark model. The only way it can work is if you make all previous content bypassed quickly which makes it meaningless. Wow did this because they only focus on current story and all story previous is made pointless.
Lotro cannot do this or it no longer tells a story. Some elements of the story must be preserved but only hurts the game more than helps it as a vertical progression game alienates new players from the majority of the player base.
If Lotro was closer to AC it might have been more successful and I only specifically refer to one element. In AC there was a very high level cap but levels meant much less than they do in most themepark mmos. A level 150 character could easily participate in the majority of content a level 200 could. Even a level 100 often could. Many players sit at level cap for YEARS and still enjoy the content and all new content added to the game. Leveling wasn't the focus. Story and game play was and you weren't gated by 99+% of the levels in the game.
If Lotro was more horizontal in progression you could have the majority of the player base able to enjoy the majority of the content. The mmo model is what ruined Lotro.
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So you are saying you want a level 1 player to be able to jump in the game and do Helms Deep, is the way I read your post.
And then maybe after you kill Sauron, you can go back to the beginning of the game and see what all the fuss was about. Hey I just killed Sauron, that wasn't so tough, what took you guys so long?
I just don't get it.
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This. When Turbine scrapped their sandbox plans and made Middle Earth Online into a WoW clone, the game never recovered.
For those who don't know that this game, all the way up until the alpha friends and family point of development, was called Middle Earth Online, and was a totally different kind of game...
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Well, this game used to be an ambitious sandbox game called Middle Earth Online, that focused on simulating life in Middle Earth.
Then WoW got big, Turbine got scared, fired most of their devs, hired devs fresh out of college, and in 9 months fast tracked this game into LotRO, instanced quest grinding linear game with boring mechanics and atmosphere ruined by invisible walls, instances, and bad gameplay. The only good features in the games are relics from Middle Earth Online.
It's a shame what happened and I wish another company could get a shot with it. But so long as a publisher is behind it, we'll never get a good MMO in Middle Earth."
I think some people just have a kneejerk Sandbox>themepark reaction. In many cases I actually agree with that but for Turbine to tell the story they wanted to tell, which followed the fellowship, I think they needed levels. The whole D&D leveling process seems *based* on the LOTR story. "You don't simply walk into Mordor..." You need to go through the journey step by step to get the impact of the story.
Could they have made a cool "life in Middle Earth" sandbox game? Sure and I'd have played the hell out of that but it wouldn't be able to tell the same kind of story. Look at EVE Online, it's pretty much impossible for CCP to tell a coherent story with everyone running this way and that doing their own thing. "Middle Earth Online" would've probably been the same thing. Probably a fun game but the story would've definitely suffered.
The story already suffers. Right now the only story in LotRO exists as quest text before you close out of it and follow the yellow brick road. Instances do some scripted BS that has no impact on the actual game world.
Turbine, with MEO could have done what they did with AC, tell monthly stories within the living virtual world. There are a ton of ways to tell a story without instancing and quest grinding. Quest grinding actually undermines storytelling to a massive degree.
And Eve's PvE has just as much story as LotRO.
Besides, with a world as fully fleshed out as Middle Earth, I think most people wanted to experience LIFE there. Not be forced through a scripted path with a lifeless world of cutout cardboard facades. Theres a reason LotRO's tagline was changed from Live in Middle Earth to Fight Through Middle Earth