Originally posted by donpopuki What bugs me is the cultural assumption within MMO player circles that a game must be perfect in every way in order to be enjoyed at all.
I see nothing wrong with having fun in a game for few months then moving on. I'm sure some will berate me for encouraging developers to create just good enough products but I will counter that having impossible high standards will only make you more miserable.
It's ok to have fun.
I'm with you. People who are expecting to be entertained for years are just setting themselves up for disappointment.
Which in itself a disappointment. Most games now are designed and meant to be enjoyed only for a couple months. Then they are discarded to jump into the 'Next' big MMO. Why have we gone from MMOs like EQ, UO, SWG which were all games people enjoyed for years, to now games that we can expect no more than six months of enjoyment....if we are lucky.
I personally would rather be in the same MMO for the next 5 years, rather than the average of five weeks with todays MMOs.
Agreed, it's pretty clear most major MMO's are designed to follow the single player business model, sell a ton of copies at the start, which players will enjoy for some short period of time thereafter (say 3 months at best) before moving on to their next new game.
Sure, some people hang around for years, but they are a much smaller subset than the original target audience, just as is true with single player games.
Clearly different than the MMORPG designs of the past which appealled to a smaller audience but retained more of them for longer.
Obviously the new model works, and is very profitable, because large companies continue to deliver in this fashion.
There really is no good or bad to this, just an alternative profit model which is working as intended, even if I don't care for it personally.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Since the NDA hasn't been lifted yet (as far as I know), anything we discuss is moot. Until we have a firm grasp on what the game is or isn't doing good, all we can say is "I like this game", or "this game sucks".
Besides, who cares if the game is themepark or sandbox. What matters is the enjoyment of the game. While, personally, I want something a little more sandbox-like; I'll tolerate a game if the character progression/customization is robust.
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
People complain just for the sake of complaining, most of the time.
They can't accept when something is different then they think it should be.
The problem with ESO Hate is the vast majority of people it touches:
1. Single Player fans who just wanted the next TES game.
2. MMO fans who want a game a certain way.
3. Fans of both who just like to complain.
4. Negative people in general.
Add them all up and that is where most of the hate comes from. I so far, like the game a lot, more then I thought I would. I now have real debate with myself over ESO and Wildstar.
I've gotta say, the only reason I have a major dislike for ESO is because for some reason I have it stuck in my head that it will delay the next Elder Scrolls single player installment. I have enough generic MMO's to play, for free.
I have kept it in mind that it will probably be several years before they drop another Elder Scrolls game. Yes I did get into the weekend beta, I mean't to give the key away since I didn't feel like playing it but I never got around to it, sry guys I'll give away the next one!
OP, I've come to expect it in the MMO world. As one poster said, it's just like music. People wear their MMO of choice as a status symbol, and as long as that's happening, it will never change. The Spice Girls, for example sold 7 million albums (as much as Kid Rock's first album), but I've never met one person that will admit to buying it. MMOs these days are no different. Right now, it's "cool" to bash the new game until it proves itself to the "hardcores."
Well every argument and perspective is necessarily subjective. That much is obvious; it cannot be any other way. What you're looking for though are people who keep a broader perspective in mind, beyond that of just their own narrow expectations. Such people may, for example, not personally like the fact ESO has a loose class system in place because the other Elder Scrolls games had no such progression-narrowing feature, but may still be able to understand that classes are necessary to A) provide readily discernible differentiation between players in a multiplayer world that will frequently require grouping, and provide a reason to level multiple characters, the lack of which can be devastating for an MMO's longevity.
While certainly not common on massive internet forums, such people do exist.
Open world and sandbox are two things that DONT BELONG to an mmo !
You need to have a good story and linear path, thats the true art of rpg.
I'm guessing this is sarcasm...I hope.
Many people are themeparked out and they overreact when people say they enjoy them. I can't imagine enjoying being told what to do by quest giver after quest giver in a world in which there should many ways to progress, of your choosing. Until a few Sandbox games release in the upcoming two years the SB crowd will be on here ripping hand holding linear quest hub themeparks. Get used to it.
Originally posted by sludgebeard You just can NOT be in an Objective argument about MMO's.
After ESO beta I had a friend who posted on Facebook telling his other friends that he really enjoyed the game and cant wait to get back into another beta session. Immediately he was bombarded by post from a friend of ours on how ESO is just "GW2 with Tab-Targeting", and how he hated how Non-Sandbox the game was.
And for some reason it just dawned on me, maybe because it was over social media, or the fact that I already held strong disdain for the responding poster. At that moment I realized that his argument, that was so so similar to the arguments on this very forum, was entirely subjective.
That was it, I simply observed that his opinion was based entirely on his personal feelings about a specific sub-genre of MMO's (Namely: Themeparks) and how impossible it was for my friend to argue back against him, he merely reiterated his shared joy of the game and still the replys were the same kind of subjective rebuttle Ive read here countless times.
"Your just in the Honeymoon stage, youll hate the game in a week once it releases" This was the statement that really got to me....Simply because my friend didnt share this guys exact view on MMO's he assumed that my friend was merely enjoying the game for the fact that it was new, as if his enjoyment of the game was an elaborate game of smoke and mirrors.
Again I know this is a somewhat obvious conlusion I made, but I thought maybe if I made a post about it, I might see some consensus with some of you guys on the subject.
Congratulations. Now realize that the first post was also based on personal feelings and you'll have a pretty clear picture of why most threads go haring off in the wilderness of wtf.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Open world and sandbox are two things that DONT BELONG to an mmo !
You need to have a good story and linear path, thats the true art of rpg.
For me the true art of a RPG is if the gameworld is providing me with believing I am there (game-wise)
If it's a linear path with a great story it's a story-based game and not so much a RPG atleast not to me.
OP what you might notice with ESO is something that happens to every MMO or MMORPG's we have today.
There are plenty of people that know when they state an opinion. Unfortunaly there are also plenty of people who consider their personal opinion to be fact while all it is is their opinion, unless of course those opinions can be backed up with fact.
We do not see gamers anymore that understand when a game might not be the game for them. Instead we have people into games that if they don't like a particulair game it should be so for everyone else.
One person's subpar MMO is another's ideal game. There is a mania about people enjoying games that others consider absolute garbage. They feel if someone bought what they consider a subpar game then it will lessen their own enjoyment due to companies catering to the other. I don't buy this idea, the MMO space can accommodate all types of games. Producing one type of game doesn't make it impossible to produce another. Sure there are trends but just because a Super Mario game is made doesn't mean a Halo can't be made. It's a false dichotomy.
If this is what your saying please provide some facts for this.
If this is not what your saying then simply say no.
if instead of getting all defensive and angry when someone ask you a question you could have simple answered the question and saved all these people from reading you defensive angry post.
Please provide a link that shows that all fans of The Elder Scrolls games believe that the IP is the exact same thing with no deviation regarding open world, racial or faction locks, themepark or sandbox, combat, quests, spells, abilities, class or classless, free roaming, guide railed or not and modding.
[mod edit]
Your opinion on what the IP is or is not does not override another persons opinion of what it is.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Off topic for a moment, but how is GW2 dynamic? Does "dynamic" not mean always changing or progressing? GW2 has the same quests happening over and over. They aren't dynamic, they just don't have a standard quest starter. Maybe I didn't play far enough into it!
If this is what your saying please provide some facts for this.
If this is not what your saying then simply say no.
if instead of getting all defensive and angry when someone ask you a question you could have simple answered the question and saved all these people from reading you defensive angry post.
Please provide a link that shows that all fans of The Elder Scrolls games believe that the IP is the exact same thing with no deviation regarding open world, racial or faction locks, themepark or sandbox, combat, quests, spells, abilities, class or classless, free roaming, guide railed or not and modding.
[mod edit]
Your opinion on what the IP is or is not does not override another persons opinion of what it is.
Sure, that's why such a topic should be approached from a personal perspective not a definitive declaration, the latter is what we see the most.
TES fans come in all shapes and sizes, some never see more than the main storyline, some never see that storyline because they spend all their time RPIng in the world. Some like me spend more time building our own games/experiences out of the TES creation kit, than actually playing the game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You just can NOT be in an Objective argument about MMO's.
After ESO beta I had a friend who posted on Facebook telling his other friends that he really enjoyed the game and cant wait to get back into another beta session. Immediately he was bombarded by post from a friend of ours on how ESO is just "GW2 with Tab-Targeting", and how he hated how Non-Sandbox the game was.
And for some reason it just dawned on me, maybe because it was over social media, or the fact that I already held strong disdain for the responding poster. At that moment I realized that his argument, that was so so similar to the arguments on this very forum, was entirely subjective.
That was it, I simply observed that his opinion was based entirely on his personal feelings about a specific sub-genre of MMO's (Namely: Themeparks) and how impossible it was for my friend to argue back against him, he merely reiterated his shared joy of the game and still the replys were the same kind of subjective rebuttle Ive read here countless times.
"Your just in the Honeymoon stage, youll hate the game in a week once it releases" This was the statement that really got to me....Simply because my friend didnt share this guys exact view on MMO's he assumed that my friend was merely enjoying the game for the fact that it was new, as if his enjoyment of the game was an elaborate game of smoke and mirrors.
Again I know this is a somewhat obvious conlusion I made, but I thought maybe if I made a post about it, I might see some consensus with some of you guys on the subject.
Is this your friend's first mmorpg? If so then he will of course like it, if not then both of you would see the glaring similiaries between this game every other mmorpg since WoW's debut(Save a few). The antagonist in your friend's case most likely has already had ample time playing various mmorpg in the past 5-7 years to come to that conclusion, as well as playing in the beta. If you look around and ask those who are willing to tell you; you'll find out ESO is just a WoW clone with silly gimmicks to give the feel that it is unique, fresh, and engaging, but its just the same game in a new shiney "IP" wrapper. The game has a very similar vibe to ESO, but at such a watered down degree that its pittiful. Like I said before the only saving grace is the PVP and yes GW2 is the best way to describe ESO.
I guarentee you unless substantial changes are made to ESO it will be another SW:Tor; losing massive subs after the first month; followed by a huge exodus of the populace. It then will go F2P where they will try to suck the remaining life from the game until they fill their coffers and unfortunately many "kiddies" will play it whiles its F2P and pay for their nickle and diem services; undermining why we all left in the first place.
This one of the main reasons I hate F2P; if your sub based game crashes and burns it shouldn't be given life support via F2P model. It should just end there.
---Veteran Mmorpg player; but also someone that likes an engaging, deep, fun, meaningful game; whether sandbox or themepark.
You nailed it sludgebeard, this is the number one reason why a lot (not everyone of course) of MMO player are confused and confusing: the deep lack of perspectives. MMOs are vast and vastly complex, and there are many ways to enjoy them, some of them being in somewhat opposite directions. Nothing is ever back and white, even without considering the fact that these videogames are updated frequently. A really good post about an MMO will be a "concise wall of text" because it always takes a lot to talk about these super games, and this leads to arguments breaking very quickly and loosing a lot of the original text (and multiple dimensions). I'd even argue that it's trully impossible to really compare MMOs overall, even if you have their extensive list of features, a detailed assessment of each of them and a good representation of their overall balance. There's so much subjectivity in judging each aspect and determining if it's fun (there can't be a more concept than "fun"!), that forgetting the person's perspective (taste, experience, etc.) is like trying to compare apple and oranges.
I think I agree with OP if I understand what he/she's saying. What you're saying is people have already made up their minds to love or hate TESO. No discussion is possible. Isn't that human nature on everything? No one will change your mind but you. I'm an Elder Scrolls fan as well and I hope TESO doesn't get trolled to death on release. I'm willing to believe in Bethesda. If they make a good mmo or not I believe they'll try their hardest just to keep their reputation.
Most mmo 'arguments' consist of someone climbing atop the soapbox and yelling "Like What I Like!" or "U R Wrong For Liking That", sometimes really, really loudly.
Originally posted by Sleepyfish I see that please play ESO posts have spread to the main forums, this is shameless promotion.
OP is not promoting. It's a fair topic. TESO is one of the few high dollar mmo's coming down the pike. It's not unusual it would come up in discussion. Esp considering this successful co has never made an mmo out of this famous series. No one said you have to come play. But a lot of people are asking what's up and coming so ...
Comments
Agreed, it's pretty clear most major MMO's are designed to follow the single player business model, sell a ton of copies at the start, which players will enjoy for some short period of time thereafter (say 3 months at best) before moving on to their next new game.
Sure, some people hang around for years, but they are a much smaller subset than the original target audience, just as is true with single player games.
Clearly different than the MMORPG designs of the past which appealled to a smaller audience but retained more of them for longer.
Obviously the new model works, and is very profitable, because large companies continue to deliver in this fashion.
There really is no good or bad to this, just an alternative profit model which is working as intended, even if I don't care for it personally.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Since the NDA hasn't been lifted yet (as far as I know), anything we discuss is moot. Until we have a firm grasp on what the game is or isn't doing good, all we can say is "I like this game", or "this game sucks".
Besides, who cares if the game is themepark or sandbox. What matters is the enjoyment of the game. While, personally, I want something a little more sandbox-like; I'll tolerate a game if the character progression/customization is robust.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
People complain just for the sake of complaining, most of the time.
They can't accept when something is different then they think it should be.
The problem with ESO Hate is the vast majority of people it touches:
1. Single Player fans who just wanted the next TES game.
2. MMO fans who want a game a certain way.
3. Fans of both who just like to complain.
4. Negative people in general.
Add them all up and that is where most of the hate comes from. I so far, like the game a lot, more then I thought I would. I now have real debate with myself over ESO and Wildstar.
Open world and sandbox are two things that DONT BELONG to an mmo !
You need to have a good story and linear path, thats the true art of rpg.
Step in the arena and break the wall down
I've gotta say, the only reason I have a major dislike for ESO is because for some reason I have it stuck in my head that it will delay the next Elder Scrolls single player installment. I have enough generic MMO's to play, for free.
I have kept it in mind that it will probably be several years before they drop another Elder Scrolls game. Yes I did get into the weekend beta, I mean't to give the key away since I didn't feel like playing it but I never got around to it, sry guys
I'll give away the next one!
Well every argument and perspective is necessarily subjective. That much is obvious; it cannot be any other way. What you're looking for though are people who keep a broader perspective in mind, beyond that of just their own narrow expectations. Such people may, for example, not personally like the fact ESO has a loose class system in place because the other Elder Scrolls games had no such progression-narrowing feature, but may still be able to understand that classes are necessary to A) provide readily discernible differentiation between players in a multiplayer world that will frequently require grouping, and
provide a reason to level multiple characters, the lack of which can be devastating for an MMO's longevity.
While certainly not common on massive internet forums, such people do exist.
I can't comment that...just LOL !I don't even know if you're being sarcastic. I'll just assume you are.
Hah! Good one man.
Clearly you havent played ESO
I'm guessing this is sarcasm...I hope.
Many people are themeparked out and they overreact when people say they enjoy them. I can't imagine enjoying being told what to do by quest giver after quest giver in a world in which there should many ways to progress, of your choosing. Until a few Sandbox games release in the upcoming two years the SB crowd will be on here ripping hand holding linear quest hub themeparks. Get used to it.
Congratulations. Now realize that the first post was also based on personal feelings and you'll have a pretty clear picture of why most threads go haring off in the wilderness of wtf.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
For me the true art of a RPG is if the gameworld is providing me with believing I am there (game-wise)
If it's a linear path with a great story it's a story-based game and not so much a RPG atleast not to me.
OP what you might notice with ESO is something that happens to every MMO or MMORPG's we have today.
There are plenty of people that know when they state an opinion. Unfortunaly there are also plenty of people who consider their personal opinion to be fact while all it is is their opinion, unless of course those opinions can be backed up with fact.
We do not see gamers anymore that understand when a game might not be the game for them. Instead we have people into games that if they don't like a particulair game it should be so for everyone else.
Please provide a link that shows that all fans of The Elder Scrolls games believe that the IP is the exact same thing with no deviation regarding open world, racial or faction locks, themepark or sandbox, combat, quests, spells, abilities, class or classless, free roaming, guide railed or not and modding.
[mod edit]
Your opinion on what the IP is or is not does not override another persons opinion of what it is.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
there are so many wrongs with this post, i can only assume its the hook set to bait flamers.
im not biting today
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...
Sure, that's why such a topic should be approached from a personal perspective not a definitive declaration, the latter is what we see the most.
TES fans come in all shapes and sizes, some never see more than the main storyline, some never see that storyline because they spend all their time RPIng in the world. Some like me spend more time building our own games/experiences out of the TES creation kit, than actually playing the game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Is this your friend's first mmorpg? If so then he will of course like it, if not then both of you would see the glaring similiaries between this game every other mmorpg since WoW's debut(Save a few). The antagonist in your friend's case most likely has already had ample time playing various mmorpg in the past 5-7 years to come to that conclusion, as well as playing in the beta. If you look around and ask those who are willing to tell you; you'll find out ESO is just a WoW clone with silly gimmicks to give the feel that it is unique, fresh, and engaging, but its just the same game in a new shiney "IP" wrapper. The game has a very similar vibe to ESO, but at such a watered down degree that its pittiful. Like I said before the only saving grace is the PVP and yes GW2 is the best way to describe ESO.
I guarentee you unless substantial changes are made to ESO it will be another SW:Tor; losing massive subs after the first month; followed by a huge exodus of the populace. It then will go F2P where they will try to suck the remaining life from the game until they fill their coffers and unfortunately many "kiddies" will play it whiles its F2P and pay for their nickle and diem services; undermining why we all left in the first place.
This one of the main reasons I hate F2P; if your sub based game crashes and burns it shouldn't be given life support via F2P model. It should just end there.
---Veteran Mmorpg player; but also someone that likes an engaging, deep, fun, meaningful game; whether sandbox or themepark.
MurderHerd
You nailed it sludgebeard, this is the number one reason why a lot (not everyone of course) of MMO player are confused and confusing: the deep lack of perspectives. MMOs are vast and vastly complex, and there are many ways to enjoy them, some of them being in somewhat opposite directions. Nothing is ever back and white, even without considering the fact that these videogames are updated frequently. A really good post about an MMO will be a "concise wall of text" because it always takes a lot to talk about these super games, and this leads to arguments breaking very quickly and loosing a lot of the original text (and multiple dimensions). I'd even argue that it's trully impossible to really compare MMOs overall, even if you have their extensive list of features, a detailed assessment of each of them and a good representation of their overall balance. There's so much subjectivity in judging each aspect and determining if it's fun (there can't be a more concept than "fun"!), that forgetting the person's perspective (taste, experience, etc.) is like trying to compare apple and oranges.
I think I agree with OP if I understand what he/she's saying. What you're saying is people have already made up their minds to love or hate TESO. No discussion is possible. Isn't that human nature on everything? No one will change your mind but you. I'm an Elder Scrolls fan as well and I hope TESO doesn't get trolled to death on release. I'm willing to believe in Bethesda. If they make a good mmo or not I believe they'll try their hardest just to keep their reputation.
Most mmo 'arguments' consist of someone climbing atop the soapbox and yelling "Like What I Like!" or "U R Wrong For Liking That", sometimes really, really loudly.
Smile
OP is not promoting. It's a fair topic. TESO is one of the few high dollar mmo's coming down the pike. It's not unusual it would come up in discussion. Esp considering this successful co has never made an mmo out of this famous series. No one said you have to come play. But a lot of people are asking what's up and coming so ...