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ESO has taught me a valuable lesson about MMO's
sludgebeard
Member RarePosts: 788
You just can NOT be in an Objective argument about MMO's.
After ESO beta I had a friend who posted on Facebook telling his other friends that he really enjoyed the game and cant wait to get back into another beta session. Immediately he was bombarded by post from a friend of ours on how ESO is just "GW2 with Tab-Targeting", and how he hated how Non-Sandbox the game was.
And for some reason it just dawned on me, maybe because it was over social media, or the fact that I already held strong disdain for the responding poster. At that moment I realized that his argument, that was so so similar to the arguments on this very forum, was entirely subjective.
That was it, I simply observed that his opinion was based entirely on his personal feelings about a specific sub-genre of MMO's (Namely: Themeparks) and how impossible it was for my friend to argue back against him, he merely reiterated his shared joy of the game and still the replys were the same kind of subjective rebuttle Ive read here countless times.
"Your just in the Honeymoon stage, youll hate the game in a week once it releases" This was the statement that really got to me....Simply because my friend didnt share this guys exact view on MMO's he assumed that my friend was merely enjoying the game for the fact that it was new, as if his enjoyment of the game was an elaborate game of smoke and mirrors.
Again I know this is a somewhat obvious conlusion I made, but I thought maybe if I made a post about it, I might see some consensus with some of you guys on the subject.
Comments
ESO will be better just because you are going to get random quests from npcs.
like skyrim,this and open world exploring is the way forward for me.
EQN is also going to be like this but it looks like wildstar is going to be more traditional but with some perks like paths.
I don't know if their is some people that still wants kill 5 rats mmos.
Someone hasn't played yet...obviously.
I wish the above were true!
I, however, am looking forward to this game because it will be the perfect console MMO, the control style will work well, the combat is slow and meaningless, and it's fun while not needing to have "exact" targeting like on an FPS. Plus playing on 100" and relaxing on the couch will be far more fun than 45" in a chair.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
yes and no.
for example, arguing that something is not a sandbox can, generally be determined true or false, in spite of the contention it causes. an example would be claiming that WoW is a sandbox, well most people are going to say, not true. not b/c everything is subjective, but b/c most folks have a strong enough definition of sandbox to recognize its opposite.
having a general consensus does not make those outside the consensus evidence that the consensus is thereby falsified.
admittedly, the closer you get to having, using our example again, a sandbox game the more the consensus will begin to reshape and even divide.
so yes and no.
my main issue with the responder to your friend is they sound as if they are begrudging your friend what enjoyment or fun they might be having. on top of which they are basically claiming that if your fun only lasts a few weeks or months, then its really not fun. now that is purely subjective. and bitter. and kind of mean-spirited.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Dimension is objective, it is measured to within a tolerance and can be reported as factual (assuming there's no time-space arguments involved).
Like and dislike will always be subjective. It's just the nature of the beast.
Grats on the epiphany. (honestly, not intended as sarcasm)
LOL - This post made me happy
Honestly I don't care about what others think about games, because as you mentioned it, arguing about MMOs is one of the most counter-productive things you can do. It's pretty much the same as arguing about music. Fuck me, but I can't convince my 12 year old cousin that Pink Floyd is better than Justin Bieber and One Direction.
I've enjoyed many MMOs in my 11 year MMO career and yeah, I've put 900 hours into GW2 (which is far less than I expected tho) and I enjoyed that and I will put more hours into GW2 probably, I also enjoyed SWTOR and I enjoyed WAR. The thing is that I just go into the game without expectations and try to get the best out of it. And every game mentioned above, that was considered a fail by most people on this forum, had something to offer, something to play for and something that kept me playing it for a couple of months.
I'm pretty sure ESO will be treated the same way as GW2 and SWTOR on this forum - ergo a highly anticipated title that did not deliver. But I think it's going to be a very solid game that will get and keep some of it's audience. Mostly people whose expectations about new MMORPGs are realistic.
There shouldn't be. When gw2 was this close to launch there was an endless stream of threads singing it's praises about how revolutionary and innovative it was, and how it would change everything in the mmo market. I don't really see any of those around here for ESO. the hype level really isn't even close.
However almost EVERY new MMO after GW2 uses an action combat system, dynamic events, and many other implementations that you attempt to try and sarcastically refer to.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Somehow please explain to me how the exploration will tie into obtaining skill points. Because if it is about visiting specific locations, it will be just another themeparky carrot to follow. And I've grown to hate these kind of gimmicky incentives for exploration.
While Skyrim plays like a sandbox because character progression is not tied to specific quests or locations. This is one of its main reasons why you feel that you are free to just go anywhere in that game.
It would be nice if threads contained any relevant info about the titles; instead its - "ESO....." okay another eso thread to express disdain or talk about the mmo in general. If you want to speak on a topic, do it in a way that is relevant to the TITLES' topics. Constantly thinking every ESO thread or GW2 thread or xyz thread is domain to bashing and speaking about shit that wasn't even brought up or relevant to the title is annoying. Seriously. And I haven't even been here that long.
TL;DR This forum should just have 1 thread per MMO (outside of news/specials) and leave it at that.
On topic: Agreed, people tend to have a prerequisite of shoving their opinions down other peoples throats with subgenres like "sandbox" etc without even considering the FACT that ALL types of MMOs can be enjoyed and just because one game doesn't do theme park or whatever in the most entertaining fashion (seriously, whatever I could care less what you think about someone else's opinion- that is not objective) , doesn't mean there isn't an enjoyable experience to be had from a standard "theme park" experience. People that only play one kind of mmo are like people that can only listen to 1 type of music. Extremely short sided. Honestly, MMORPG.com would do better as a video hub for people to discuss actual gameplay/ideas instead of just dudes whipping out their e-peens and sword fighting over pointless banter on what they don't like and how they think someone else's opinion is wrong (LOL). My 50 cents.
You wanna change the gaming industry? Sure here might be a start but I guarantee you're not spending your time meaningfully without getting closer to the development of a game.
any personally charged topic will be laden with bias
i try to be neutral (and for games its easier) but doesn't take much to get me onto a soapbox on some stupid topic
EQ2 fan sites
I see nothing wrong with having fun in a game for few months then moving on. I'm sure some will berate me for encouraging developers to create just good enough products but I will counter that having impossible high standards will only make you more miserable.
It's ok to have fun.
I'm with you. People who are expecting to be entertained for years are just setting themselves up for disappointment.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I think on certain points people can be objective, they either choose not to or aren't capable of doing it.
You can dislike something but evaluate it on its own merits as well as make comparisons with similar subjects.
But a good many people evaluate based on the subject somehow affecting an intrinsic part of who they are.
This is a choice.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yet HE is the one that cant hold an objective argument, you don't like him and only his argument was subjective!
I would wager that if ESO wasn't using a popular IP, that friend wouldn't have cared at all about the game.
If you use an IP, expect to hear from fans often and loudly. Especially if its being created in a way not similar to the IP.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Its true, anyone expecting to enjoy this MMO for years is in a world of hurt. It wont do what good MMOs do...last. wow, just tell companies to go on and make bad products with low standards and you will still throw money at them why don't you. Seriously, what the hell happened to this genre where its not expected that an MMO will entertain a person as long as some SRPGs?!?
PEOPLE ARE STILL PLAYING OBLIVION AFTER 7 YEARS! Just look at the new mods being created for it...
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Ah but your reply is very subjective . You state expect to hear from fans often and loudly as if all fans are complaining when in reality it's a very small percentage it may seem often because like on this site it's the same 5-10 posters on every thread spreading misinformation.
Are you implying eso is not following the IP? If so could you please give some specifics? Some of these 5-10 posters posting misinformation on sites like this clearly have no clue for example mages can't wear plate that is wrong and was a lie, there will be a cash shop again that was a lie, somehow these same posters know what the entire game is going to be even though we been to 3 areas (starting area an island as two of them ) and level 17 in a beta and they are experts. In my opinion these so called experts are just part of the entitlement crowd that are pissed it's going to be a sub game, so they want to spread as much misinformation as possible in hopes the game fails and goes f2p, I know sad but that is what the mmo community is turning into. And don't worry if it does go f2p these same entitlement creeps will cry it's not free enough.
Which in itself a disappointment. Most games now are designed and meant to be enjoyed only for a couple months. Then they are discarded to jump into the 'Next' big MMO. Why have we gone from MMOs like EQ, UO, SWG which were all games people enjoyed for years, to now games that we can expect no more than six months of enjoyment....if we are lucky.
I personally would rather be in the same MMO for the next 5 years, rather than the average of five weeks with todays MMOs.
You apply the word subjective only to those complaining. anyone posting anything about the game, good, bad or otherwise is posting something subjective. And yes, you hear it more from fans of a famous IP as opposed to an unknown IP because one is FAMOUS and has more people that will voice an opinion over it. Also, the percentage has nothing to do with it being subjective or not.
The above misconceptions of the word subjective, makes your post subjective, the opposite of objective. May want to note that my post was not based on personal feelings nor misconceptions of the word unlike yours.
And no, there is no point in touching on the rest of your rant which was again, subjective to the point of absurdity.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
I learnt a long time ago that if I enjoy a game I will play it, if I don't I wont - regardless of what opinions others have.
I played SWG from launch to shut down and thought I was a hardcore sandboxer but I have since been playing GW2 and SWTOR so I guess I enjoy themeparks as well.
SWG and SWTOR in particular both get a lot of hate on the forums but tbh I don't care, the day I stop enjoying them I'll stop playing them - until that point others are welcome to voice their opinions as loud as they want it really has no effect on my enjoyment what-so-ever.
Again little buddy you go into full defense mode when you are asked for proof or links to back up your claims. So who took this personal again it would be you.What claims did I make? please point them out to me. Going into attack mode again, must of touched a nerve by pointing out what you are saying is subjective...that's some serious touchy feely you have there. Please, continue with your rant oh angst filled one.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/