I often wonder why people would bother playing a game that they admittedly don't have time for & would gladly pay money so they can pretend they are actually playing at a level they cannot attain. Reminds me of old men who go thru a mid-life crisis and buy an expensive electric guitar & never learn to play but show it off to their friends as if they could.
I often wonder why people would bother playing a game that they admittedly don't have time for & would gladly pay money so they can pretend they are actually playing at a level they cannot attain. Reminds me of old men who go thru a mid-life crisis and buy an expensive electric guitar & never learn to play but show it off to their friends as if they could.
Perfect! +10
I've wondered this often as well. Here's my take:
If you don't have the time either:
a) Don't play
b) Play a game more suited for your schedule, or
c) Play and don't complain
I have to laugh at these posts. It sounds great what you write on a forum. Now go tell a business that they should cater to the people who will give them less money but occupy their services more often instead of the the people who will pay way more and need it less.
I often wonder why people would bother playing a game that they admittedly don't have time for & would gladly pay money so they can pretend they are actually playing at a level they cannot attain. Reminds me of old men who go thru a mid-life crisis and buy an expensive electric guitar & never learn to play but show it off to their friends as if they could.
Perfect! +10
I've wondered this often as well. Here's my take:
If you don't have the time either:
a) Don't play
b) Play a game more suited for your schedule, or
c) Play and don't complain
I have to laugh at these posts. It sounds great what you write on a forum. Now go tell a business that they should cater to the people who will give them less money but occupy their services more often instead of the the people who will pay way more and need it less.
See if they agree with you.
Still wonder why mmos changed ?
I don't think its a matter of agreeing about catering. Its a matter do you want to turn MMORPG's into an elitist game or a game with that everyone can compete on a level playing field with a base entry level. Even if there are people to cater to it you also are more likely to alienate those who aren't willing to pay to keep up with the Jones. If you can't raid or PvP or level without spending 400 a month in buffs don't you think you're going to put off far more casual players than you will attract who are bid budget spenders? Where does it end?
For me paying a fair rate and having a fair playing field is much more about gamemanship. I don't like variable outside factors determining outcomes. Time spend in game is not the same as financial investments because money is not playing the game. If someone has 20 hours a day to play they're actually playing the game. If I have 5 I am still playing under the same rules. P2W to me comes down to saying I can only practice with my basketball team for 4 vs. their 20 hours a week so I will spend more money to get 20 point advantage at the start the game.
What kind of person feels they need an advantage over others that only money can buy?
The problem I encounter is I'll work hard to get that cyber coin to buy those items but when I wear them I get all kinds of negative comments. "Why don't you just quit gold buyer." "Must be nice to have money to spend." And I quested or crafted or begged friends to join - basically worked - to get it. No one believes I didn't use real life money. So p2w promotes jealously and distrust.
I understand the need to lessen the hours it takes to accomplish things. I am all for this !!! The argument some people have jobs, wife, kids, social commitments. Gaming isn't in their mom's basement. Yeah, I work too. Maybe not as many hours as most but I get it.
So in the end it's bad gameplay practice to use money or time. Or grinding or complex puzzles or trinity biased content.
The logic in the OP is inherently flawed because despite what the old adage states, time is not money. It is time. A universal force. Money is just currency.
How is that relevant? Let's change the example in the OP up to illustrate this.
There are 168 hours in a week. You can play 20 and the other guy can play 80, but the total number of hours that are available to play doesn't change. You are willing to buy advancement and thus skip actually playing through said advancement and this seems equal to you. It might be in this case where the variables are fixed in such a way that it seems sensible.
Now imagine two players each playing for 110 hours in one week (every waking hour assuming they sleep normally,) but one is willing to pay for progression as well. The other cannot change the time-space continuum and "pay with more time" because time operates outside of the financial sphere of influence. The paying-to-advance player can pump as much of his money as he wants into the game, but the other guy cannot alter his pace of advancement to equivalency by using more time, as it is a resource paid at a fixed rate.
We can't alter that rate, and so the concept that time= money in regard to P2W mmos is meaningless.
I often wonder why people would bother playing a game that they admittedly don't have time for & would gladly pay money so they can pretend they are actually playing at a level they cannot attain. Reminds me of old men who go thru a mid-life crisis and buy an expensive electric guitar & never learn to play but show it off to their friends as if they could.
Perfect! +10
I've wondered this often as well. Here's my take:
If you don't have the time either:
a) Don't play
b) Play a game more suited for your schedule, or
c) Play and don't complain
I have to laugh at these posts. It sounds great what you write on a forum. Now go tell a business that they should cater to the people who will give them less money but occupy their services more often instead of the the people who will pay way more and need it less.
See if they agree with you.
Still wonder why mmos changed ?
I don't think its a matter of agreeing about catering. Its a matter do you want to turn MMORPG's into an elitist game or a game with that everyone can compete on a level playing field with a base entry level. Even if there are people to cater to it you also are more likely to alienate those who aren't willing to pay to keep up with the Jones. If you can't raid or PvP or level without spending 400 a month in buffs don't you think you're going to put off far more casual players than you will attract who are bid budget spenders? Where does it end?
For me paying a fair rate and having a fair playing field is much more about gamemanship. I don't like variable outside factors determining outcomes. Time spend in game is not the same as financial investments because money is not playing the game. If someone has 20 hours a day to play they're actually playing the game. If I have 5 I am still playing under the same rules. P2W to me comes down to saying I can only practice with my basketball team for 4 vs. their 20 hours a week so I will spend more money to get 20 point advantage at the start the game.
That's all wonderful what you want...I'm not laughing a that. I'm laughing when people actually act like they should get it.
I want the learning channel to educate people, not show pro wrestling. I want the discovery channel to show things that teach you about the world not show a bunch of red necks destroying it. Things that cost money don't work that way.... Everything starts out with high ideals....till the bills start to show up.
I want games to be made by people who want me to enjoy the game and don't care about money. If I ever actually posted that I think I should get it and I'm going to hold out till I do... you all have permission to laugh at me.
I think that in the course of having this conversation several assumptions were made that caused the argument to veer off course.
First - The assumption that the money spent would only be spent by a player that did not have enough time to compete with another player.
This is totally inaccurate and causes the real problem behind P2W games to become obscured. The real problem with P2W games is that there are actually people, believe it or not, who have plenty of time to play and plenty of money to burn and in a P2W game those people get to own you.
Second - That if you don't have enough time to play then you shouldn't be playing.
This supposes that there is some bar to reach or some medal to attain in some certain amount of time and is again what is wrong with not only the basic setup of the MMORPG but the spirit that its community has taken on. Everybody is always staring at everyone else's junk.
It's to the point that if you do not have a friend sitting behind you spending more time looking over your shoulder at your monitor than looking at their own, then you are probably that friend.
At the same time though no one has the "time" to help someone else, even if in doing so they are helping their selves, and so this is why the companies can take advantage of you with the P2W format. I say more power to them. Someone figured out a way to not only keep their companies in business but to really suck the WHOLE life out of this community, as if sitting in a chair for several hours a day wasn't already taking half.
Only people who play MMOs for a "living" complain about P2W. They think they should be entitled to have all the best stuff in the game because they have went through the hoops to disable their entire real life in favor of being able to play more.
Don't like the game's monetization? Don't play it. There are plenty of different models to choose from.
P2W has become a word MMO-junkies slap on every game that offers shortcuts to people who actually have a job, a family and limited amount of time to play the game.
Time is NEVER unequal between people. We all have 24hrs to work with each and every day. We dont all have equal access to money, but when it comes to time.. there is NOTHING that is more universally equal. If you choose to play less, then you are choosing to be not as high lvl or not as geared out. This is not a real life advantage... this is your Choice. I cant CHOOSE to have more money ( well.. not directly). So yes time is money..... but the fact that my time might not be worht as much in terms of money as your time.. that advantage is now taken out of the equation. All we have left is the same 24 hrs to work with. Play IRL or play the game, its your CHOICE.
Only people who play MMOs for a "living" complain about P2W. They think they should be entitled to have all the best stuff in the game because they have went through the hoops to disable their entire real life in favor of being able to play more.
Don't like the game's monetization? Don't play it. There are plenty of different models to choose from.
P2W has become a word MMO-junkies slap on every game that offers shortcuts to people who actually have a job, a family and limited amount of time to play the game.
The thread isn't a discussion about people who don't like game monetization being wrong or right, per se. It was positing that money and time are equivalent and interchangeable in regard to advancement, which they are not. That has been established.
Whether or not monetization is liked or disliked is immaterial to the topic at hand.
The logic in the OP is inherently flawed because despite what the old adage states, time is not money. It is time. A universal force. Money is just currency.
How is that relevant? Let's change the example in the OP up to illustrate this.
There are 168 hours in a week. You can play 20 and the other guy can play 80, but the total number of hours that are available to play doesn't change. You are willing to buy advancement and thus skip actually playing through said advancement and this seems equal to you. It might be in this case where the variables are fixed in such a way that it seems sensible.
Now imagine two players each playing for 110 hours in one week (every waking hour assuming they sleep normally,) but one is willing to pay for progression as well. The other cannot change the time-space continuum and "pay with more time" because time operates outside of the financial sphere of influence. The paying-to-advance player can pump as much of his money as he wants into the game, but the other guy cannot alter his pace of advancement to equivalency by using more time, as it is a resource paid at a fixed rate.
We can't alter that rate, and so the concept that time= money in regard to P2W mmos is meaningless.
Both time and money are currencies. A rich man with little time will hire someone with little money but a lot of time to do tedious tasks such as cleaning or accounting. If Time equals Money that would mean that is an objective currency. A stable one. But it isn't, it is subjective. If I work 2 hours and you work 4 I can still earn more than you if I make more progression.
Same goes for games. If I spend 2 hours playing an MMO and you play 4, I can still be ahead of you because you spent time exploring and enjoying the game and I just rushed to keep up with you. Same goes if I pay 100 quid to skip the progression you "pay" in hours out of your day.
All in all, you need to ask "Do I want to make quick progress or do I want to enjoy myself?" if not, you should probably play something else. So yes. Real life advantages transfer into games. But it isn't limited to time and/or money but to skill, playstyle and enjoyment.
Back in vanilla WoW I was level 19 after 24 hours put into that one character. My mates made fun of me how I was utter crap at the game but I was enjoying myself. I was exploring the world and I traveled to distant continents only to be killed. I made barely any silver and I made barely any progress but I was enjoying my place in the world. I did eventually reach level 55 with my main and I enjoyed every single level of that.
I'm guessing this is similar to what you are getting at?
Don't like the game's monetization? Don't play it. There are plenty of different models to choose from.
I agree with this, although it's getting harder and harder to find a pure subscription with no cash shop lurking at the edges.
There are a number of games that have come out recently (and are on the horizon) that I will probably never play purely because I don't trust the business model. I try to not post too much about it since I don't want to get in the way of the fun of people who feel differently than I do and *can* enjoy other business models, but it is something I feel strongly about so the occassional snipe slips out.
Those players who spent more time in the game than you were Playing the Game. That's what gamers do, to try to make out you are levelling this with buying P2W items is nonsense.
OP, the players on more often can buy P2W items too you know! Suddenly your hypotheses goes out the window. Not only that but where in your definition of gaming ethos is playing more not cricket?
Also as the other poster said it is nearly impossible now to find a MMO that is not using its cash shop for P2W, lock box gambling or both. That applies more to F2P, but B2P and P2P are not far behind.
Only people who play MMOs for a "living" complain about P2W. They think they should be entitled to have all the best stuff in the game because they have went through the hoops to disable their entire real life in favor of being able to play more.
Don't like the game's monetization? Don't play it. There are plenty of different models to choose from.
P2W has become a word MMO-junkies slap on every game that offers shortcuts to people who actually have a job, a family and limited amount of time to play the game.
Wow, you are so above it all bro. Up here with the rest of us on the MMORPG forums
Those players who spent more time in the game than you were Playing the Game. That's what gamers do, to try to make out you are levelling this with buying P2W items is nonsense.
OP, the players on more often can buy P2W items too you know! Suddenly your hypotheses goes out the window. Not only that but where in your definition of gaming ethos is playing more not cricket?
Also as the other poster said it is nearly impossible now to find a MMO that is not using its cash shop for P2W, lock box gambling or both. That applies more to F2P, but B2P and P2P are not far behind.
That's silly. Yes, people who spend every waking hour playing a game will make more progress. But I don't like P2W and I only play 2-3 hours of MMOs aday (when I play MMOs). Thing is, I like making progress. I like the feeling of reaching higher and higher.
The people who use P2W don't do it because they have little time, they do it because they are given something exclusive. I have both time and money but I won't be playing some P2W game because I don't want to have the shittiest armour and the ugliest character just because I want to earn it myself. I'd rather just pay monthly for a game that will have frequent updates and exclusivity that is rewarded upon achieving something.
An MMO doesn't have to be a fulltime job. When I was younger I went to school at 07:00 and came back home around 17:00. That's 10 hours of my day. I went to bed around 21:00 and I went up around 05:30. I ate and showered for about an hour together. So I essentially had 3 hours. And I did my homework during sometimes and I met friends or watched TV as well.
Now you might notice how early I usually got up. I played for about an hour each morning, about one or two during the evening and during the weekend if I had nothing else going on I could spend half a day playing. So it's about the same as now. I get home around 17:00 or 18:00, I spend an hour eating and showering and then I most likely read or play some Singleplayer games for the same amount of time I used to play MMOs. Then I go to bed around 23:00 Except I don't get up early in the morning to play a bit extra. Albeit, I don't work during weekends. So all in all I have about the same amount of time I had back then, I just have different priorities. And if an MMO I really like comes out I will definitely get up at 05:30 to play it for an hour.
But let's all be honest here. How many actual P2W games that would be worth playing anyway are there? As I said, P2W has become slap-it-on-everything word for those who have a weird idea that game developers don't need or deserve any money. Hell, just now there is a thread about GW2 with some outrageous claims that offering better looking cosmetic items is P2W, because the game obviously is all about who looks better.
Most of the time, these "P2W" games sell convenience and well... TIME. They sell you items that will let you reach your goal in less time, or make reaching it less tedious. Is that really "Pay to Win"? In the end, the person spending money and the person spending no money are at the very same spot. The other one has just been sitting in front of the computer longer. Odds are, he's also better at playing the game (because he's been doing it longer) and would defeat the "P2W" player in PvP, for example. How's that P2W then if you lose?
Some rare games, again games that are not worth your time anyway, sell actual POWER. Items that are more powerful than what you can get by playing the game, giving an edge that cannot be evened out by just playing the game for free. These games are usually quite small and don't enjoy a wide popularity among gamers. Doesn't that already show that actual P2W monetization does not work?
Don't like the game's monetization? Don't play it. There are plenty of different models to choose from.
I agree with this, although it's getting harder and harder to find a pure subscription with no cash shop lurking at the edges.
There are a number of games that have come out recently (and are on the horizon) that I will probably never play purely because I don't trust the business model. I try to post too much about it since I don't want to get in the way of the fun of people who feel differently than I do and *can* enjoy other business models, but it is something I feel strongly about so the occassion snipe slips out.
You're right, but that's just the reality of things. These "AAA" MMOs need to have the largest playerbase possible, while bringing in as much money as possible to cover the development and running costs. I don't think any AAA MMO can survive with a pure subscription model anymore. Even WoW has made a ton of money from player transfers and other cash shop items.
The reality is, gamers today are no longer just kids, students and teenagers spending all their free time sitting on a computer. They have grown up. They've got jobs, they've got families, they've got other hobbies. Yet they still want to play MMOs and feel that they're making progress. The dilemma comes that the developer cannot just make the game advance at these grown ups pace of playing, because then all the others would be done with the content in a week or two. That's why they offer different models to cover all possible playstyles and situations of life.
You're doing the right thing, though. If a certain business model doesn't suit you, you are voting with your wallet. It's the only vote the game developers care about.
OK, let's say there are two people who have very similar lives, work the same job, live in the same neighborhood etc. They also play the same MMO. Now Person A really loves the MMO and spends every second of free time he has playing it. He gradually is able to build up a few of the rewards the game offers by giving up his other leisure activities to play the game. Person B, despite having the same amount of free time, decides he doesn't want to devote it all to the game, maybe he has lots of different hobbies...whatever. They're both doing what makes them happy with their own time. Fine, right?
Now if person B decides that it's unfair that Person A has more stuff with him in the game and decides he'll just buy the same items in the cash shop, all of a sudden Person A's time investment is devalued. Person B is just saying "rules don't apply to me. I have money." Sure, Person B is giving up money but it doesn't really counterbalance Person A's time because the rules of the game implicitly gave the impression that spending time in the game would be rewarded. Money is adding something outside the framework of the rules and using it to get ahead, that is why it feels to some people like cheating even if the publisher allows it.
Originally posted by Xthos Originally posted by lizardbonesI think once people have established their own advantage, they want to protect it. If that advantage is free time, then protect it against cash shops. If that advantage is money, protect it against people with free time. I think that is a really difficult thing for a developer to balance.
Well, I would not be the norm then, as I make good money, a family etc...So I have the money, more then I have the time, but I still find it not right. If someone has the time, good for them, when I am in the game, me and his time are 100% equal without the cash shop. I like equality as far as my games go.
I also think it is fine for games to cater to the cash shop crowd also, not everything should be the same, but unfortunately, their is not enough imo of the non-cash shop variety going. So as a consumer, and on a forum, I voice this.
Your advantage is you are playing games for the sake of playing games, rather than having the achievements pop up as fast as possible or to somehow compete with other players. Which you are, right now, defending. ;-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
OK, let's say there are two people who have very similar lives, work the same job, live in the same neighborhood etc. They also play the same MMO. Now Person A really loves the MMO and spends every second of free time he has playing it. He gradually is able to build up a few of the rewards the game offers by giving up his other leisure activities to play the game. Person B, despite having the same amount of free time, decides he doesn't want to devote it all to the game, maybe he has lots of different hobbies...whatever. They're both doing what makes them happy with their own time. Fine, right?
Now if person B decides that it's unfair that Person A has more stuff with him in the game and decides he'll just buy the same items in the cash shop, all of a sudden Person A's time investment is devalued. Person B is just saying "rules don't apply to me. I have money." Sure, Person B is giving up money but it doesn't really counterbalance Person A's time because the rules of the game implicitly gave the impression that spending time in the game would be rewarded. Money is adding something outside the framework of the rules and using it to get ahead, that is why it feels to some people like cheating even if the publisher allows it.
If it bothers Person A that others can just skip the amount of time he has spent in the game he should probably start looking for another medium that doesn't allow it.
Thing is, I wouldn't want to spend 25 hours getting my perfectly crafted armour the looks great just to have it pale in comparison with some cash shop particle-bonanza that they've bought for 10 quid. And that isn't even P2W, that is just cosmetic.
It is alright with an exclusive pet if you purchase the collectors edition because that is an exclusive and limited offer to show your support to the game as well as celebrating the launch of the title or/and its expansions. I want progress to be visible on the character much like how it is in the Monster Hunter games. I spent 2 hours farming Bhnahabra scales and wings to make a suit with a tophat. Sure, it's a singleplayer game but if I could just go to an ingame store and purchase a cosmetic tophat DLC that would ruin it as much for me as it would in an MMO.
I actually like the cash shop in games that can't ask for a subscription such as league of legends. The champion you choose cannot be customized in any other way and in all honesty I like fighting people with nice skins. Because it just doesn't devalues my progress. Mainly because time spent in that game doesn't equal skins earned.
OK, let's say there are two people who have very similar lives, work the same job, live in the same neighborhood etc. They also play the same MMO. Now Person A really loves the MMO and spends every second of free time he has playing it. He gradually is able to build up a few of the rewards the game offers by giving up his other leisure activities to play the game. Person B, despite having the same amount of free time, decides he doesn't want to devote it all to the game, maybe he has lots of different hobbies...whatever. They're both doing what makes them happy with their own time. Fine, right?
Now if person B decides that it's unfair that Person A has more stuff with him in the game and decides he'll just buy the same items in the cash shop, all of a sudden Person A's time investment is devalued. Person B is just saying "rules don't apply to me. I have money." Sure, Person B is giving up money but it doesn't really counterbalance Person A's time because the rules of the game implicitly gave the impression that spending time in the game would be rewarded. Money is adding something outside the framework of the rules and using it to get ahead, that is why it feels to some people like cheating even if the publisher allows it.
Your example is flawed. If the game has a cash shop, it's "rules" clearly state that you can use that cash shop to get rewarded in-game. It also doesn't invalidate the fact that person A did get rewarded by spending more time.
You could at least have the example use outside sources like gold sellers. But then of course you could not blame the publisher for P2W, could you?
Time has been and always will be the greatest currency.
It is irreplaceable and more valuable than the worth placed on a dollar.
You can always make a dollar back. But you'll never get the time back it took to make it.
Should an advantage in game come due to more time spent playing. Then that player has earned whatever advantages come their way.
Should an advantage in game come due to spending money. That player has bought the advantage over running the same gauntlet as everyone else and therefore considered unequal.
I'm sure no one really wants to get into how much more valuable someone else's time is over another's.
But if you have no time.. Then you shouldn't be playing games.
At the end of the day.. They put that shit in there because they know people will buy it.
They are still finding the best ways to bottleneck players into buying things they don't need.
Real life is real life and a game is a game - at what point when you start bringing real life into a game does a game stop being a game? I dont want real life in my MMO games.
Time has been and always will be the greatest currency.
It is irreplaceable and more valuable than the worth placed on a dollar.
You can always make a dollar back. But you'll never get the time back it took to make it.
Should an advantage in game come due to more time spent playing. Then that player has earned whatever advantages come their way.
Should an advantage in game come due to spending money. That player has bought the advantage over running the same gauntlet as everyone else and therefore considered unequal.
I'm sure no one really wants to get into how much more valuable someone else's time is over another's.
But if you have no time.. Then you shouldn't be playing games.
At the end of the day.. They put that shit in there because they know people will buy it.
They are still finding the best ways to bottleneck players into buying things they don't need.
The value of time and money is relative. Today is my day off since I'm packing for my vacation but I've been done packing for about three hours now and I have nothing else to do. As in quite literally, I've done everything I could right now. So the next four hours until I leave for my flight will be completely empty.
If I spend a dollar I will always have one dollar less than what I would have if I hadn't spent it. Same goes for time, every hour I spend playing an MMO is an hour I could have spent doing something else. But what if that dollar was part of hundreds of other dollars that I spent on groceries for the week? I needed to spend that money in the same way I need to spend these four hours until I have to leave.
Money is more valuable to me than time today since I'm not doing anything. But if I'm working constantly and getting home at 18:00, that time will be worth more than money to me. As I've said, the value of time and money are like all other things relative. If I have little time and a lot of money, time will be more valuable to me. But if I have a lot of time and barely any money, that money will be more valuable than the time.
Comments
Perfect! +10
I've wondered this often as well. Here's my take:
If you don't have the time either:
a) Don't play
b) Play a game more suited for your schedule, or
c) Play and don't complain
I have to laugh at these posts. It sounds great what you write on a forum. Now go tell a business that they should cater to the people who will give them less money but occupy their services more often instead of the the people who will pay way more and need it less.
See if they agree with you.
Still wonder why mmos changed ?
I don't think its a matter of agreeing about catering. Its a matter do you want to turn MMORPG's into an elitist game or a game with that everyone can compete on a level playing field with a base entry level. Even if there are people to cater to it you also are more likely to alienate those who aren't willing to pay to keep up with the Jones. If you can't raid or PvP or level without spending 400 a month in buffs don't you think you're going to put off far more casual players than you will attract who are bid budget spenders? Where does it end?
For me paying a fair rate and having a fair playing field is much more about gamemanship. I don't like variable outside factors determining outcomes. Time spend in game is not the same as financial investments because money is not playing the game. If someone has 20 hours a day to play they're actually playing the game. If I have 5 I am still playing under the same rules. P2W to me comes down to saying I can only practice with my basketball team for 4 vs. their 20 hours a week so I will spend more money to get 20 point advantage at the start the game.
What kind of person feels they need an advantage over others that only money can buy?
The problem I encounter is I'll work hard to get that cyber coin to buy those items but when I wear them I get all kinds of negative comments. "Why don't you just quit gold buyer." "Must be nice to have money to spend." And I quested or crafted or begged friends to join - basically worked - to get it. No one believes I didn't use real life money. So p2w promotes jealously and distrust.
I understand the need to lessen the hours it takes to accomplish things. I am all for this !!! The argument some people have jobs, wife, kids, social commitments. Gaming isn't in their mom's basement. Yeah, I work too. Maybe not as many hours as most but I get it.
So in the end it's bad gameplay practice to use money or time. Or grinding or complex puzzles or trinity biased content.
The logic in the OP is inherently flawed because despite what the old adage states, time is not money. It is time. A universal force. Money is just currency.
How is that relevant? Let's change the example in the OP up to illustrate this.
There are 168 hours in a week. You can play 20 and the other guy can play 80, but the total number of hours that are available to play doesn't change. You are willing to buy advancement and thus skip actually playing through said advancement and this seems equal to you. It might be in this case where the variables are fixed in such a way that it seems sensible.
Now imagine two players each playing for 110 hours in one week (every waking hour assuming they sleep normally,) but one is willing to pay for progression as well. The other cannot change the time-space continuum and "pay with more time" because time operates outside of the financial sphere of influence. The paying-to-advance player can pump as much of his money as he wants into the game, but the other guy cannot alter his pace of advancement to equivalency by using more time, as it is a resource paid at a fixed rate.
We can't alter that rate, and so the concept that time= money in regard to P2W mmos is meaningless.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
That's all wonderful what you want...I'm not laughing a that. I'm laughing when people actually act like they should get it.
I want the learning channel to educate people, not show pro wrestling. I want the discovery channel to show things that teach you about the world not show a bunch of red necks destroying it. Things that cost money don't work that way.... Everything starts out with high ideals....till the bills start to show up.
I want games to be made by people who want me to enjoy the game and don't care about money. If I ever actually posted that I think I should get it and I'm going to hold out till I do... you all have permission to laugh at me.
I think that in the course of having this conversation several assumptions were made that caused the argument to veer off course.
First - The assumption that the money spent would only be spent by a player that did not have enough time to compete with another player.
This is totally inaccurate and causes the real problem behind P2W games to become obscured. The real problem with P2W games is that there are actually people, believe it or not, who have plenty of time to play and plenty of money to burn and in a P2W game those people get to own you.
Second - That if you don't have enough time to play then you shouldn't be playing.
This supposes that there is some bar to reach or some medal to attain in some certain amount of time and is again what is wrong with not only the basic setup of the MMORPG but the spirit that its community has taken on. Everybody is always staring at everyone else's junk.
It's to the point that if you do not have a friend sitting behind you spending more time looking over your shoulder at your monitor than looking at their own, then you are probably that friend.
At the same time though no one has the "time" to help someone else, even if in doing so they are helping their selves, and so this is why the companies can take advantage of you with the P2W format. I say more power to them. Someone figured out a way to not only keep their companies in business but to really suck the WHOLE life out of this community, as if sitting in a chair for several hours a day wasn't already taking half.
Only people who play MMOs for a "living" complain about P2W. They think they should be entitled to have all the best stuff in the game because they have went through the hoops to disable their entire real life in favor of being able to play more.
Don't like the game's monetization? Don't play it. There are plenty of different models to choose from.
P2W has become a word MMO-junkies slap on every game that offers shortcuts to people who actually have a job, a family and limited amount of time to play the game.
The thread isn't a discussion about people who don't like game monetization being wrong or right, per se. It was positing that money and time are equivalent and interchangeable in regard to advancement, which they are not. That has been established.
Whether or not monetization is liked or disliked is immaterial to the topic at hand.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
Both time and money are currencies. A rich man with little time will hire someone with little money but a lot of time to do tedious tasks such as cleaning or accounting. If Time equals Money that would mean that is an objective currency. A stable one. But it isn't, it is subjective. If I work 2 hours and you work 4 I can still earn more than you if I make more progression.
Same goes for games. If I spend 2 hours playing an MMO and you play 4, I can still be ahead of you because you spent time exploring and enjoying the game and I just rushed to keep up with you. Same goes if I pay 100 quid to skip the progression you "pay" in hours out of your day.
All in all, you need to ask "Do I want to make quick progress or do I want to enjoy myself?" if not, you should probably play something else. So yes. Real life advantages transfer into games. But it isn't limited to time and/or money but to skill, playstyle and enjoyment.
Back in vanilla WoW I was level 19 after 24 hours put into that one character. My mates made fun of me how I was utter crap at the game but I was enjoying myself. I was exploring the world and I traveled to distant continents only to be killed. I made barely any silver and I made barely any progress but I was enjoying my place in the world. I did eventually reach level 55 with my main and I enjoyed every single level of that.
I'm guessing this is similar to what you are getting at?
I agree with this, although it's getting harder and harder to find a pure subscription with no cash shop lurking at the edges.
There are a number of games that have come out recently (and are on the horizon) that I will probably never play purely because I don't trust the business model. I try to not post too much about it since I don't want to get in the way of the fun of people who feel differently than I do and *can* enjoy other business models, but it is something I feel strongly about so the occassional snipe slips out.
Those players who spent more time in the game than you were Playing the Game. That's what gamers do, to try to make out you are levelling this with buying P2W items is nonsense.
OP, the players on more often can buy P2W items too you know! Suddenly your hypotheses goes out the window. Not only that but where in your definition of gaming ethos is playing more not cricket?
Also as the other poster said it is nearly impossible now to find a MMO that is not using its cash shop for P2W, lock box gambling or both. That applies more to F2P, but B2P and P2P are not far behind.
Wow, you are so above it all bro. Up here with the rest of us on the MMORPG forums
Please pardon my trollness.
That's silly. Yes, people who spend every waking hour playing a game will make more progress. But I don't like P2W and I only play 2-3 hours of MMOs aday (when I play MMOs). Thing is, I like making progress. I like the feeling of reaching higher and higher.
The people who use P2W don't do it because they have little time, they do it because they are given something exclusive. I have both time and money but I won't be playing some P2W game because I don't want to have the shittiest armour and the ugliest character just because I want to earn it myself. I'd rather just pay monthly for a game that will have frequent updates and exclusivity that is rewarded upon achieving something.
An MMO doesn't have to be a fulltime job. When I was younger I went to school at 07:00 and came back home around 17:00. That's 10 hours of my day. I went to bed around 21:00 and I went up around 05:30. I ate and showered for about an hour together. So I essentially had 3 hours. And I did my homework during sometimes and I met friends or watched TV as well.
Now you might notice how early I usually got up. I played for about an hour each morning, about one or two during the evening and during the weekend if I had nothing else going on I could spend half a day playing. So it's about the same as now. I get home around 17:00 or 18:00, I spend an hour eating and showering and then I most likely read or play some Singleplayer games for the same amount of time I used to play MMOs. Then I go to bed around 23:00 Except I don't get up early in the morning to play a bit extra. Albeit, I don't work during weekends. So all in all I have about the same amount of time I had back then, I just have different priorities. And if an MMO I really like comes out I will definitely get up at 05:30 to play it for an hour.
But let's all be honest here. How many actual P2W games that would be worth playing anyway are there? As I said, P2W has become slap-it-on-everything word for those who have a weird idea that game developers don't need or deserve any money. Hell, just now there is a thread about GW2 with some outrageous claims that offering better looking cosmetic items is P2W, because the game obviously is all about who looks better.
Most of the time, these "P2W" games sell convenience and well... TIME. They sell you items that will let you reach your goal in less time, or make reaching it less tedious. Is that really "Pay to Win"? In the end, the person spending money and the person spending no money are at the very same spot. The other one has just been sitting in front of the computer longer. Odds are, he's also better at playing the game (because he's been doing it longer) and would defeat the "P2W" player in PvP, for example. How's that P2W then if you lose?
Some rare games, again games that are not worth your time anyway, sell actual POWER. Items that are more powerful than what you can get by playing the game, giving an edge that cannot be evened out by just playing the game for free. These games are usually quite small and don't enjoy a wide popularity among gamers. Doesn't that already show that actual P2W monetization does not work?
You're right, but that's just the reality of things. These "AAA" MMOs need to have the largest playerbase possible, while bringing in as much money as possible to cover the development and running costs. I don't think any AAA MMO can survive with a pure subscription model anymore. Even WoW has made a ton of money from player transfers and other cash shop items.
The reality is, gamers today are no longer just kids, students and teenagers spending all their free time sitting on a computer. They have grown up. They've got jobs, they've got families, they've got other hobbies. Yet they still want to play MMOs and feel that they're making progress. The dilemma comes that the developer cannot just make the game advance at these grown ups pace of playing, because then all the others would be done with the content in a week or two. That's why they offer different models to cover all possible playstyles and situations of life.
You're doing the right thing, though. If a certain business model doesn't suit you, you are voting with your wallet. It's the only vote the game developers care about.
OK, let's say there are two people who have very similar lives, work the same job, live in the same neighborhood etc. They also play the same MMO. Now Person A really loves the MMO and spends every second of free time he has playing it. He gradually is able to build up a few of the rewards the game offers by giving up his other leisure activities to play the game. Person B, despite having the same amount of free time, decides he doesn't want to devote it all to the game, maybe he has lots of different hobbies...whatever. They're both doing what makes them happy with their own time. Fine, right?
Now if person B decides that it's unfair that Person A has more stuff with him in the game and decides he'll just buy the same items in the cash shop, all of a sudden Person A's time investment is devalued. Person B is just saying "rules don't apply to me. I have money." Sure, Person B is giving up money but it doesn't really counterbalance Person A's time because the rules of the game implicitly gave the impression that spending time in the game would be rewarded. Money is adding something outside the framework of the rules and using it to get ahead, that is why it feels to some people like cheating even if the publisher allows it.
I also think it is fine for games to cater to the cash shop crowd also, not everything should be the same, but unfortunately, their is not enough imo of the non-cash shop variety going. So as a consumer, and on a forum, I voice this.
Your advantage is you are playing games for the sake of playing games, rather than having the achievements pop up as fast as possible or to somehow compete with other players. Which you are, right now, defending. ;-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If it bothers Person A that others can just skip the amount of time he has spent in the game he should probably start looking for another medium that doesn't allow it.
Thing is, I wouldn't want to spend 25 hours getting my perfectly crafted armour the looks great just to have it pale in comparison with some cash shop particle-bonanza that they've bought for 10 quid. And that isn't even P2W, that is just cosmetic.
It is alright with an exclusive pet if you purchase the collectors edition because that is an exclusive and limited offer to show your support to the game as well as celebrating the launch of the title or/and its expansions. I want progress to be visible on the character much like how it is in the Monster Hunter games. I spent 2 hours farming Bhnahabra scales and wings to make a suit with a tophat. Sure, it's a singleplayer game but if I could just go to an ingame store and purchase a cosmetic tophat DLC that would ruin it as much for me as it would in an MMO.
I actually like the cash shop in games that can't ask for a subscription such as league of legends. The champion you choose cannot be customized in any other way and in all honesty I like fighting people with nice skins. Because it just doesn't devalues my progress. Mainly because time spent in that game doesn't equal skins earned.
Your example is flawed. If the game has a cash shop, it's "rules" clearly state that you can use that cash shop to get rewarded in-game. It also doesn't invalidate the fact that person A did get rewarded by spending more time.
You could at least have the example use outside sources like gold sellers. But then of course you could not blame the publisher for P2W, could you?
Time has been and always will be the greatest currency.
It is irreplaceable and more valuable than the worth placed on a dollar.
You can always make a dollar back. But you'll never get the time back it took to make it.
Should an advantage in game come due to more time spent playing. Then that player has earned whatever advantages come their way.
Should an advantage in game come due to spending money. That player has bought the advantage over running the same gauntlet as everyone else and therefore considered unequal.
I'm sure no one really wants to get into how much more valuable someone else's time is over another's.
But if you have no time.. Then you shouldn't be playing games.
At the end of the day.. They put that shit in there because they know people will buy it.
They are still finding the best ways to bottleneck players into buying things they don't need.
Neither should you if you have no money.
Real life is real life and a game is a game - at what point when you start bringing real life into a game does a game stop being a game? I dont want real life in my MMO games.
Cash shops ruined MMO games. They are over!
The value of time and money is relative. Today is my day off since I'm packing for my vacation but I've been done packing for about three hours now and I have nothing else to do. As in quite literally, I've done everything I could right now. So the next four hours until I leave for my flight will be completely empty.
If I spend a dollar I will always have one dollar less than what I would have if I hadn't spent it. Same goes for time, every hour I spend playing an MMO is an hour I could have spent doing something else. But what if that dollar was part of hundreds of other dollars that I spent on groceries for the week? I needed to spend that money in the same way I need to spend these four hours until I have to leave.
Money is more valuable to me than time today since I'm not doing anything. But if I'm working constantly and getting home at 18:00, that time will be worth more than money to me. As I've said, the value of time and money are like all other things relative. If I have little time and a lot of money, time will be more valuable to me. But if I have a lot of time and barely any money, that money will be more valuable than the time.