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Originally posted by Novusod The time has come for the levelless MMO. How many millions or billions of dollars have been spent on power leveling services or people trading accounts because people don't feel like grinding levels anymore. That is money that is just going out the door. This is why Everquest Next is going to be such a break through. It is not going to be the same old grind again.
How would this actually work though. Just a gear grind? Sounds really boring. I want a way to see my character progress and improve. Not just get better gear. Otherwise it's not an RPG and I won't be playing. Sure maybe you could level up skills like in EVE rather than having classes but I just don't see how you can have an RPG without leveling up *something*. This is my main problem with GW2. Most levels in that game don't really mean much in terms of improving skills so there doesn't seem much point in playing just to get stuff that makes you look a bit cooler.
What people really want is slower meaningful progression NOT slow leveling. Levelless MMO design will give us this. That item you got from a named monster on the first day won't be something you throw away 2 hours later. It could be useful for weeks because there is no outleveling it. Sure you will find better items eventually but it won't because you are simply racing from quest hub to quest hub.
This part sounds good to me but the people trained by Blizzard to be loot-addicts would probably hate it.
Originally posted by Antiquated From reading 10 years of reading hardcore vs casual threads: Slow R Hardcore. Doesn't matter what you're discussing--transport, leveling speed, progression and/or quality of life improvements of any variety. Fast R Bad, Slow R Good.
Funny, I associate "hardcore" more with rushing through to the end game (aka "real game") and blitzing content so you have bragging rights on doing it first whilst wanting to "stop and smell the roses" and experience content slowly like it's actually a world you're going through seems like a more casual playstyle. All depends on how you define those terms I guess.
Originally posted by RPGForever This is the result of whiners asking for short time character development.
Because Hardcore in mmorpg's became having what someone else wants instead of the most skilled or involved. They can create hardcore forum fanboys this way that will defend anything.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Originally posted by Alminie is mmo progressions too fast? should mmo lvling be slower? is it fine the way it is?
I don't really care. As a player, my chief concern is that I enjoy whatever time I spend in the game. If I was a developer of a game with super-fast levelling, then I might be worried about players ripping through my content too quickly and quitting. But it isn't my game, it isn't my investment and it isn't my problem.
People want and love numbers as fast as they can so they can brag about it.
Highest-fastest-best of best-biggest-largest-smallest-richest and so on(typical human need and behavior).
One country( we all know which country want this BEST of the BEST...or BIGGEST-STRONGEST) that doing there very best to make sure whole planet want this:P
Im affraid this won't change any time soon, its only getting worse:(
Days that mmo's where timesink and slowly progressing are long gone.
have been the last 10 + years, game are to easy this day
Originally posted by Katzuki Progression is MUUUUUUCH to fast in mmo's today, and the devs are never ready for end game game play because of it. It's a lose lose situation.
it's an ugly truth.
5 years in development. reached endgame in a week. lost interest after another week. Tell me again how that's retaining your playrbase.
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Slowing down progression is one of the most basic ways MMOs could be a bit more old school. I have suggested it before and while not met with horror the idea did not exactly go down a storm.
Starting with end game like PS2 is one solution, but that is not a true MMO, its a MMOFPS. You could try a lateral progression, you get a bigger house, vehicle and so on. But will players go for that?
You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!
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Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy? :P
Yes, very much so. I typically am able to play from 10 to 30h a week, but I still consider my leveling speed too fast. When I occasionally have more time, I notice very soon how I'm being sucked into the same old end game.
Perhaps the biggest problem is segregation brought forth by this design as games grow older. The incentives to counter 90% of the base playing 1% of the game always feel so artificial, out of place or down right boring even before I get there.
If different servers had different leveling speeds and the structure of the game would not be so skewed, I wonder if enough people would choose the slow one for it to not have to shut down fast. I know I would.
A couple months back I played RO2. Not too much good to say about it, but it felt refreshing to grind for the first time in a long while. Giving me an excuse to grind gave me freedom to choose how fast I level. Perhaps odd, but true. I already miss that.
So, what could some devs consider? Excuses to grind, get rid of errand boy mechanics that get players to lvl fast and instead educate them, danger, all zones providing something for the economy... plus a number of other things I'm too lazy/busy to think of.
You could triple the time it takes to reach max level in most new games and it would still be too fast. A game like GW2 is just awful because of it since you never feel like anything you do matters. Your gear doesn't matter, your skills don't matter, the game delevels you so you never feel like your getting stronger. All levels do in that game is open up new content, other than that they might as well not exist.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard UO and AC1, both "old school" MMORPGs, had progression without an "end game". It works.
Doesn't work with the "WoWkids". They will still rush to "endgame" and complain there is nothing to do because there is no raids (despite barely touching the game content or even their character progression).
Originally posted by Scot Slowing down progression is one of the most basic ways MMOs could be a bit more old school. I have suggested it before and while not met with horror the idea did not exactly go down a storm. Starting with end game like PS2 is one solution, but that is not a true MMO, its a MMOFPS. You could try a lateral progression, you get a bigger house, vehicle and so on. But will players go for that?
Keeping power hidden will slow progression down. End game should be you pick your own goal and your own path. Go play something else is already the number one option.
You can't just slow progression down imo, it would be better to replace it. People will just cheat more in heavy progression games. They know nothing will happen.
Originally posted by Crazy_StickActually, I think asking if leveling is too fast avoids the issue. I am starting to wonder if leveling itself is an anachronism and we need to introduce alternate means of progression and character development into games?
Skill advancement is leveling.Gear/Spell improvement is leveling.Anything another player can use as a "qualification of others players" is leveling.
How does one measure progress in a game if not for leveling?
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by AlBQuirky Anything another player can use as a "qualification of others players" is leveling.
Just wanted to comment on this. In theory, you are very much correct in this assessment, but in practise qualifications or requirements are placed on players almost only in regards to power. In comparison, the situations requiring e.g. master crafter are rare.
Consider the following:
To what extent is it possible to decrease the "weight" of end game simply by adjusting leveling speed via introducing true incentives to participate in economy earlier?
Botting. In ten years I haven't seen a game I could verify being ruined by bots. Naturally I haven't played them all, but plenty enough. I would consider prevention software available to devs for a long time now to prevent possibly 90% of the people who would bot given the chance. Most people are lazy, this applies to botting too. In my experience, the problem is typically blown out of proportion by rumors and false sightings. In my opinion, botting should not be used as an excuse to restrict practically all worthy economic activity to end game.
Merely adjusting the numbers to slow down leveling has the effect of introducing mob or quest grind. In my opinion, given incentives, more mob grind is completely acceptable in majority of the games we currently have. Mob grind typically has the benefit of furthering crafting or other forms of progression also.
Well, enough of my preaching:P My comment turned a bit long again:)