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[Interview] ArcheAge: XLGAMES Address Monetization Worries

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  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Daemoneyes
    Originally posted by fodell54
    Originally posted by Daemoneyes
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by mxpenguin

    My biggest problem with F2P is the massive price gouging. To get an equal experience with pay to play you have to spend WAY more than the usual $15/mo. F2P always ends up being so much more expensive.

    Disclaimer: I have pulled the following numbers out of my F2P violated orifice.

    $5 for a bag here, $10 for a horse there, $5 for a respec here, $10 for marginally improved farming/crafting/whatever rates, $10 to avoid impossibly slow leveling rates for like 3 days?!, perhaps $100 (7 months sub fee) for in game currency that will only last a month spending frugally, $5 bank access, $5 make a guild, $10 additional character slot, $10 additional class, $10 fast travel capability, etc, etc, etc.

    It's always awful. 

     

     
     

    If every F2P game did it the same way - except its not the case.

    Its not always awful.

    Look at Rift, your entire argument falls apart.

     

     

     

    You failed the moment you said Rift.

    Next time try again with Path of Exile.

    I'm guessing you have never played Rift's f2p.

    Path of Exile is far worse

     

    Nope but i informed myself about it and i cant be arsed to run wow2.0

    People do a lot of that around here....

     

    OT: this looks a lot like how PWI does things with its zen and AD. Those games always feel like a job to me. When it has a direct conversion to real money I can't help but think " oh that quest was worth $0.03 and it took almost an hr to finish "

    I hate the immersion argument but, that does kill it for me.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,214Member Uncommon

    The subscription setup in Korea and Japan sounds horrible. I really hope Trion uses the model they have in Rift as a guide. That and Tera are the best payment models I've seen yet. If they cripply the game behind a sub like Korea and Japan, that will be a deal breaker for me.

    XL makes it sound so much more complicated than it has to be. This is pretty much the same thing Cryptic uses in their games.

    Zen - Buys account perks, items, and services

    AD/dilly/acti - buys npc items, player items from the AH, game functions (respecs)

    Gold - npc items - It's mostly a useless currency but not entirely.

    There is a zen to AD conversion market.

    This is also a similar system to GW2, only they just use 2 currencies. I prefer this one because it's simpler but the Cryptic method works fine.

  • RPGForeverRPGForever PortoviejoPosts: 120Member
    This game was in my pull list but I am really disappointed now, I thought it was a plain subscription fee to play and end of the story. I do not think it is going to work I would prefer to pay a subscription.
  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile
     

    People do a lot of that around here....

     

    OT: this looks a lot like how PWI does things with its zen and AD. Those games always feel like a job to me. When it has a direct conversion to real money I can't help but think " oh that quest was worth $0.03 and it took almost an hr to finish "

    I hate the immersion argument but, that does kill it for me.

    True, being able to see the actual $$ worth of an item can do that.

     

    If you are able to make arcs at a reasonable rate in game, It should boil down to play the game or pay the game. People who play the game in theory will never need to spend $$. Those who want ____ now, or as they say "don't have time" will be the ones paying the game. 

     

    So mr. "I don't have time" will buy stuff for mr. gamer. Mr. Gamer should not feel like he's spending $$ because he will be buying everything with currency he earned in game.

     

     

     

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,214Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Daemoneyes

    Nope but i informed myself about it and i cant be arsed to run wow2.0

    People do a lot of that around here....

    OT: this looks a lot like how PWI does things with its zen and AD. Those games always feel like a job to me. When it has a direct conversion to real money I can't help but think " oh that quest was worth $0.03 and it took almost an hr to finish "

    I hate the immersion argument but, that does kill it for me.

    lol, you owned that dude.

    I think you hit on the biggest weakness of this. Where most cash shops are straight forward and you either buy it or not, the currency conversion method seems to bring about that real money thinking to me more.

    When I play Neverwinter, I'm often thinking, "Is this a better purchase through Zen, or should I use AD? What is current conversion rate and should I convert to Zen/AD or buy Zen and convert?"

    For those that really enjoy a more economics focused gameplay this can be wonderful. There are people who like playing markets and to them, that is a huge part of an mmo. I like dabbling, but the whole system can be a bit much. For those that like herping the raid farm and selling the derp to the unwashed masses that have no access to the herp, this system will be anathema. On the plus side it really keeps items at market value and it is much harder for any one mega guild to control it. On the down side it's easier to make a bad purchase and waste your money or resources if you're uninformed.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Daemoneyes

    Nope but i informed myself about it and i cant be arsed to run wow2.0

    People do a lot of that around here....

    OT: this looks a lot like how PWI does things with its zen and AD. Those games always feel like a job to me. When it has a direct conversion to real money I can't help but think " oh that quest was worth $0.03 and it took almost an hr to finish "

    I hate the immersion argument but, that does kill it for me.

    lol, you owned that dude.

    I think you hit on the biggest weakness of this. Where most cash shops are straight forward and you either buy it or not, the currency conversion method seems to bring about that real money thinking to me more.

    When I play Neverwinter, I'm often thinking, "Is this a better purchase through Zen, or should I use AD? What is current conversion rate and should I convert to Zen/AD or buy Zen and convert?"

    For those that really enjoy a more economics focused gameplay this can be wonderful. There are people who like playing markets and to them, that is a huge part of an mmo. I like dabbling, but the whole system can be a bit much. For those that like herping the raid farm and selling the derp to the unwashed masses that have no access to the herp, this system will be anathema. On the plus side it really keeps items at market value and it is much harder for any one mega guild to control it. On the down side it's easier to make a bad purchase and waste your money or resources if you're uninformed.

    Bingo very well said.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,214Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by DamonVile

    OT: this looks a lot like how PWI does things with its zen and AD. Those games always feel like a job to me. When it has a direct conversion to real money I can't help but think " oh that quest was worth $0.03 and it took almost an hr to finish "

    I hate the immersion argument but, that does kill it for me.

    True, being able to see the actual $$ worth of an item can do that. If you are able to make arcs at a reasonable rate in game, It should boil down to play the game or pay the game. People who play the game in theory will never need to spend $$. Those who want ____ now, or as they say "don't have time" will be the ones paying the game.

    I think more serious players and guilds will do both. I know when I'm focused on a certain game that I look at the best ways to use my time and money. This is even more true in a competitive game. What is the best way to spend my resources (time, money, and in game assets) in order to accomplish my goals?

    What this will hopefully curb are those who bought a huge advantage, through rmt, in a single currency system. I remember that being a huge problem in Lineage. No matter how much we farmed, fought, and gain assets, someone would buy their way through rmt/goldsellers and gain an advantage on us. I see where XL is coming from here with trying to gut that ability and control it.

  • VutarVutar BaghdadPosts: 773Member Uncommon
    I think the thing that always makes these models hilarious is that there are people still deceived into thinking the game is free to play. People on this site will defend to their grave the model called free to play when in reality it costs more to play than a sub game if you want the same benefits the sub game gives.
  • VikingGamerVikingGamer Nowhere, TXPosts: 1,347Member Uncommon
    It is a complicated enough system to make me not trust it at all. Like bills in congress that are thousands of pages long. No good comes of the obfuscation.

    All die, so die well.

  • LlexXLlexX HungaryPosts: 197Member
    Originally posted by Nephaerius

     Did you read the article or look at your own infographic?  It says gold is used to buy items from NPC's however you state "you can't use gold to buy stuff ingame."  Also you can obtain arches without spending RL money just like you can obtain other F2P games currencies in other methods as well.  Like I said before this is basically the same old F2P model as every other title out there.  Is it exactly the same?  No, but at that point we're pretty much nitpicking over details IMO.  So again I fail to see how NA players are going to revolt over this at all.

    *Please keep in mind at no point am I stating I'm for or against the model I just fail to see what all the fuss is about compared to any other F2P on the market.

    I read and i know what im talking, but seems like you don't know how things work in the game, the things you could buy with gold with this system are: plant seeds, baby animals, repair your items, in short cheap non-worth basic stuff from NPC's and nothing from AH and Mirage Island (trade island). You wouldn't be able to buy items, crafting materials, housing related stuff, mounts, siege equipment, upgrading stuff... Everything what matters would require you to spend arches, and to obtain these arches you need to pay RL money, or to spend 24/7 farming them in low amounts.

    But you are right about this being present in other F2P games, just in a bit different form.

  • LlexXLlexX HungaryPosts: 197Member
    Originally posted by Daemoneyes

    1. Crystals

    2. Arcs

    3. Gold

    That makes it a TRIPLE currency system, goddammit..

    4. Tears (daily quests, exploration, etc)

    5. Gold Coins (from trading, it's different from the other gold currency)

    6. Lulu Coins (cash shop coins, probably going to get removed after adding the arches)

    hmmm which ones did i forget... (Rice Cake, Labor Points)

     
  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vutar
    I think the thing that always makes these models hilarious is that there are people still deceived into thinking the game is free to play. People on this site will defend to their grave the model called free to play when in reality it costs more to play than a sub game if you want the same benefits the sub game gives.

    Again,  as long as you play the game you should not have to spend $$ beyond a reduced sub option. If it is Like Wushu, those who claim "I don't have the time" will become whales and pay out the arse. 

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by LlexX
    Originally posted by Nephaerius

     Did you read the article or look at your own infographic?  It says gold is used to buy items from NPC's however you state "you can't use gold to buy stuff ingame."  Also you can obtain arches without spending RL money just like you can obtain other F2P games currencies in other methods as well.  Like I said before this is basically the same old F2P model as every other title out there.  Is it exactly the same?  No, but at that point we're pretty much nitpicking over details IMO.  So again I fail to see how NA players are going to revolt over this at all.

    *Please keep in mind at no point am I stating I'm for or against the model I just fail to see what all the fuss is about compared to any other F2P on the market.

    I read and i know what im talking, but seems like you don't know how things work in the game, the things you could buy with gold with this system are: plant seeds, baby animals, repair your items, in short cheap non-worth basic stuff from NPC's and nothing from AH and Mirage Island (trade island). You wouldn't be able to buy items, crafting materials, housing related stuff, mounts, siege equipment, upgrading stuff... Everything what matters would require you to spend arches, and to obtain these arches you need to pay RL money, or to spend 24/7 farming them in low amounts.

    But you are right about this being present in other F2P games, just in a bit different form.

    the highlighted, only by playing the game will you be able to determine if this is true for you.

  • DaemoneyesDaemoneyes HartPosts: 18Member
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by LlexX
    Originally posted by Nephaerius

     Did you read the article or look at your own infographic?  It says gold is used to buy items from NPC's however you state "you can't use gold to buy stuff ingame."  Also you can obtain arches without spending RL money just like you can obtain other F2P games currencies in other methods as well.  Like I said before this is basically the same old F2P model as every other title out there.  Is it exactly the same?  No, but at that point we're pretty much nitpicking over details IMO.  So again I fail to see how NA players are going to revolt over this at all.

    *Please keep in mind at no point am I stating I'm for or against the model I just fail to see what all the fuss is about compared to any other F2P on the market.

    I read and i know what im talking, but seems like you don't know how things work in the game, the things you could buy with gold with this system are: plant seeds, baby animals, repair your items, in short cheap non-worth basic stuff from NPC's and nothing from AH and Mirage Island (trade island). You wouldn't be able to buy items, crafting materials, housing related stuff, mounts, siege equipment, upgrading stuff... Everything what matters would require you to spend arches, and to obtain these arches you need to pay RL money, or to spend 24/7 farming them in low amounts.

    But you are right about this being present in other F2P games, just in a bit different form.

    the highlighted, only by playing the game will you be able to determine if this is true for you.

    third option and the most likely

    you will search for something to craft as cheap as possible and fast as possible that you can sell to the whales and new or dumb players for Arcs.

    for me its an immersion breaker but seeing the payment model its the only way to progress fast without spending money on the game.

     

    I really miss the times where you chose a profession based on your char concept and not the market value but i am to much of a optimizer (or maybe cheapskate) as that i would ignore money to time ratio if its related to real cash.

  • Aldous.HuxleyAldous.Huxley Monticello, MNPosts: 418Member
    How long will gamers put up with this F2P BS?

    It's just a shell game tax for those who are bad at math.
  • sketocafesketocafe StoupaPosts: 801Member Uncommon
    Fucking nope.
  • lostincombatfindingslostincombatfindings thjlopPosts: 27Member

    Guys Guys Guys. I will be short and sweet here. You want to make money. And share the wealth. You see the two don't mix. Unless ofcourse I came up with the idea.

     

    Let me explain.

     

    You can buy crystals for real money. You can by tokens for crytals. What are you smoking? Do you not get  it? Just make everything liquid and make cash.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,214Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vutar
    I think the thing that always makes these models hilarious is that there are people still deceived into thinking the game is free to play. People on this site will defend to their grave the model called free to play when in reality it costs more to play than a sub game if you want the same benefits the sub game gives.

    I think it's hilarious that after at least 4 years spent on this site and 600 posts later you still pretend that F2P is something other than "no sub required to logon". That is fricken hilarious.

    What is it the P2P proponents always say? It's just $15/mo. That's only 50 cents a day and if you can't afford that then you should find another hobby. So why are they so cheap if it comes to spending more than that $15?

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,214Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley
    How long will gamers put up with this F2P BS?

    It's just a shell game tax for those who are bad at math.

    Some of us aren't bad at math? Are you advocating dumbed down game mechanics for those who are too stupid to figure it out?

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Vutar
    I think the thing that always makes these models hilarious is that there are people still deceived into thinking the game is free to play. People on this site will defend to their grave the model called free to play when in reality it costs more to play than a sub game if you want the same benefits the sub game gives.

    I think it's hilarious that after at least 4 years spent on this site and 600 posts later you still pretend that F2P is something other than "no sub required to logon". That is fricken hilarious.

    What is it the P2P proponents always say? It's just $15/mo. That's only 50 cents a day and if you can't afford that then you should find another hobby. So why are they so cheap if it comes to spending more than that $15?

    exactly.

     

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley
    How long will gamers put up with this F2P BS?

    It's just a shell game tax for those who are bad at math.

    Some of us aren't bad at math? Are you advocating dumbed down game mechanics for those who are too stupid to figure it out?

    I like p2p, but I like playing good mmorpgs more. Payment models like this pose no risk to me, and when done appropriately give little concern. I'm a gamer, I put in the time to gain my reward.

     

    On the other hand, systems like this are hell on those who "gotta have it now" those who say "I don't have enough time to play" and those who lack self control. Systems like this pray on these people (whales) and can fleeces them for hundreds if not thousands of dollars.  No offense intended if you fall into one of these three groups, but I call these systems sucker systems. The game lives of these people while the majority have a good time for little to nothing in terms of $$.

     

     

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    The concept that just because you can earn currency to buy premium items, which also can be bought with real money, somehow makes it "fair" and not pay to win is a fallacy.

    Why? Well take STO as an example. The best ships in that game are, atleast, partly bought by RL money. Either directly or indirectly, by converting RL money to IG currency. Technically you can buy those ships by just playing the game but it is a massive grind to buy just one end game ship.

    An example. If you want to buy the Romulan D'Deridex Retrofit it will cost you 2000 zen (roughly $20). Now you can farm dilithium, refine it and convert it to zen. But the ratio is about 130 dilithium for 1 zen which means you need to have about 260.000 dilithium and a typical repeatable mission gives you in the range of 500-1400 dilithium and they are on timers which means you can only do them once every 10-20 hours. But even so it would take roughly 200 of those missions, which are on timer, to get one premium ship.

    Takes maybe an average of 15 min to do one of those missions. 15x200 is 3000 mins which is 50 hours doing missions, over and over for ONE ship.

    Another caveat is that you can only get 8000 dilithium/day (a process called refining dilithium). So even if you would mindlessly grind you would still have to wait 260k/8k which is 20 days.

    So pick either one. 50 hours of grinding with a minimum wait of 20 days for ONE ship or 20 bucks and get it instantly. Obviously any person which has a life outside of gaming and only a reasonable tolerance for grinding is going to fork out the cash and thus have a big advantage for those who does not want to grind until their eyes bleed or dont think a virtual space ship is worth $20.

    And that is pay to win, even if you can technically get the same things by not paying.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by bcbully
     

     

    On the other hand, systems like this are hell on those who "gotta have it now" those who say "I don't have enough time to play" and those who lack self control. Systems like this pray on these people (whales) and can fleeces them for hundreds if not thousands of dollars.  No offense intended if you fall into one of these three groups, but I call these systems sucker systems. The game lives of these people while the majority have a good time for little to nothing in terms of $$.

     

     

    I don't see a problem with this. People like that are going to lose their money anyway. Why not lose it to a company making a game I want to play ?

     

  • dutchmandutchman rotterdamPosts: 61Member Uncommon

    And thats another game that is not getting my moneys.....    

     

    What is it with this pay to win bullshit, loved the days where a subscription was enough.

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by dutchman

    And thats another game that is not getting my moneys.....    

     

    What is it with this pay to win bullshit, loved the days where a subscription was enough.

    Companies got (more) greedy and gamers got lazy and felt entitled to get to endgame and get endgame items just by opening their wallets. That's what happened.

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