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No more random and gamble ...

iixviiiixiixviiiix GSPosts: 836Member Uncommon

Make it simple :

Do anyone here ever feel mad  ...

when your fail to enchant your gears ?

When you fail to craft something ?

When boss that you hard work to take down drop random trash ?

When chest box reward drop a crap ?

When quest ask for 10 rats tail with 5% change drop ?

When developers ninja patch and change drop rate ?

 

The joy they bring are little but most time it cause you mad.

So why we keep the random gamble ?

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Comments

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member

    Yes all those random things annoy me (except maybe the crafting one as failing crafting sometimes does sort of make sense).

    As to why they do it? Simple, they want you to grind. 

     

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon
    Gambling is the newish F2P disease. And when I say F2P that's just where it started, any MMO with a cash shop be it P2P, hybrid or B2P MMOs are very likely to catch it as well.
  • Nicco77Nicco77 gePosts: 102Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by iridescence

    Simple, they want you to grind. 

     

    And use the shop,also random drop % and gambling are perfect to force the playtime and cover the lack of content because gives addiction like the gambling in the real world.

     

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Scot
    Gambling is the newish F2P disease. And when I say F2P that's just where it started, any MMO with a cash shop be it P2P, hybrid or B2P MMOs are very likely to catch it as well.

    Yes....f2p is where random came from. I never once spent months raiding content for a drop in a p2p game. Your opinion isn't crazy biased at all.

  • VrikaVrika FinlandPosts: 2,588Member Uncommon

    I don't think it's any less stupid to collect 10 tails with 5% drop rate than it's to collect 200 tails with 100% drop rate, and if a boss has 3% chance to drop some uber loot I think it's actually more fun than the boss dropping a piece that contains 1/33rd of the item each time you kill it.

    Some F2P item enchantments and gambling boxes go way beyond anything reasonable, but apart from from those situations I think gambling is often better option than making us to collect ridiculous numbers of some items.

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,229Member Uncommon

    Well, randomness is part and parcel of pen and paper RPG's. There's a reason we were called dice chuckers . . . because we rolled lots of dice in order to randomize outcomes for various things. "What's behind this door?" DM rolls dice, Beholder, enjoy!

    "I open the coffin." DM rolls dice, poison gas! Then you roll for saving throw. Everything was a dice roll. So naturally it carried over to the video game side.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon

    Everything in the universe is random.  It's only a question of random with which probability distribution.  This outcome with probability 1 and all others with probability 0 is a perfectly good probability distribution.  For many purposes, however, it's boring.

    But I think that game randomness focusing so heavily upon loot is doing things wrong.  Why not have some randomness in mob spawns instead--both locations and which particular mobs spawn?  Some games have done that, and it can work pretty well if you do it right.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Scot
    Gambling is the newish F2P disease. And when I say F2P that's just where it started, any MMO with a cash shop be it P2P, hybrid or B2P MMOs are very likely to catch it as well.

    Yes....f2p is where random came from. I never once spent months raiding content for a drop in a p2p game. Your opinion isn't crazy biased at all.

    Didn't you get the memo? Apparently everything from floods to AIDS is the fault of F2P and the "new generation".

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • SoulTrapOnSelfSoulTrapOnSelf Ellicott City, MDPosts: 190Member
    i hope these games continue to milk all of the addicts; thanks to them for making F2P possible
  • PanthienPanthien ZaandamPosts: 559Member

    I fully agree it shouldnt be in game.

    I think its down right wrong.

     

    .. but people having asking for gambling in games for years.Though if you really want to be technical.. its not really gambling since you are garanteed to win an item of X value.

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Boca Raton, FLPosts: 867Member Uncommon
    While I agree the universe exhibits a degree of randomness, there's a big difference between the randomness emulated by a mathematical algorithm and the randomness of Human reflexes, perception, and the speed of Light in fiber optic cables.

    "To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
    Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
    Check it out on Steam

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Everything in the universe is random.

    Exactly. Tomorrow, a black hole could pass near earth or a star go nova even dozens of Lightyears away and all out little concerns about video games and everything else would be over...

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    Originally posted by Quizzical Everything in the universe is random.
    Exactly. Tomorrow, a black hole could pass near earth or a star go nova even dozens of Lightyears away and all out little concerns about video games and everything else would be over...

    On a macroscopic level, the universe is a very orderly place. A black hole isn't going to slip through a wormhole and appear next to the Earth because negative energy doesn't exist in the universe. It would have to travel here the same way everything else needs to travel here, and it would do it at less than the speed of light. We may not be able to see it traveling here, but that doesn't make it random, that just makes it hidden.

    Think about it like this. The random number generators used in most applications aren't really random. If you know the starting state of any RNG, you know what the next number in the "random" series is going to be. RNGs aren't really producing random numbers, they're just producing numbers that can't be predicted without knowing all the inputs. The universe is like that. We just don't know the macroscopic inputs. The universe isn't all that random at all.

    I haven't read the OP, but I'm going to take a stab at it anyway, because, well, why not? Roll the dice and all that.

    I'm not a fan of things being completely random in MMORPGs. There aren't that many things that are completely random though. I think drops from bosses and some mobs are really the only truly random things. Chance to hit, damage done and even most drops are something the player can have some control over by the choices they make. Getting better armor, getting more experience and choosing which mobs to kill all change what could be a completely random process into a process with a random element that's slowly skewed to be in the player's favor.

    But the boss drops though. Those things are completely random. Even there, games like WoW have added tokens that players can save up to build armor sets without having to rely on the RNG.

    I know existing MMORPG systems are pretty simple, and they have to be to serve many people. I think it would be a little better if there was some "role play" included and more of a "natural order" built into things. For instance, killing a wolf would never yield a helmet. However, killing a dragon might, but the helmet was in the dragon's digestive tract, and needs to be repaired because it was being slowly digested. The description of the item would present this idea. "Partially Digested Helmet", when repaired becomes "Helmet of Bugs" or something.

    I guess I'll go read the OP now.

    **

    I've never played a game where enchanting or crafting could randomly fail. Not for very long anyway. Crafting type skills are the things where randomness should have the least amount of impact in terms of game play (imo). If it does play a factor, it should be a factor that the player can mitigate over time, so that crafting a helmet always results in crafting a helmet, and the helmet's quality relative to resources required always results in better and better results as the player puts more effort into the activity.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • goboygogoboygo Posts: 792Member Uncommon

    Welcome to the world of F2P where all of the annoying things we build into the game from day one can easily be solved by one quick trip the cash shop!  

     

    LOOK, people got exactly what they asked for FREE GAMES!

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Scot
    Gambling is the newish F2P disease. And when I say F2P that's just where it started, any MMO with a cash shop be it P2P, hybrid or B2P MMOs are very likely to catch it as well.

    Yes....f2p is where random came from. I never once spent months raiding content for a drop in a p2p game. Your opinion isn't crazy biased at all.

    Didn't you get the memo? Apparently everything from floods to AIDS is the fault of F2P and the "new generation".

    Did I say F2P is where random came from? No. I don't remember paying in a cash shop to be entitled to use the drop I got in a P2P game. This is not about randomness its about gambling for locked boxes, you might as well say this is about Monopoly as that has rolling dice which is random too.

    I got the memo, here is one for you. Is there anything about F2P MMO's you do not like? Or are they the most perfect form of entertainment the world has ever seen? For that matter is there anything about MMO's, regardless of financial model that you feel is not fabulous? Or are we just going to get cheerleading from you as usual? And it would be interesting if you could recommend a F2P MMO for me to play, as surely you must be playing one?

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Everything in the universe is random.  It's only a question of random with which probability distribution.  This outcome with probability 1 and all others with probability 0 is a perfectly good probability distribution.  For many purposes, however, it's boring.

    But I think that game randomness focusing so heavily upon loot is doing things wrong.  Why not have some randomness in mob spawns instead--both locations and which particular mobs spawn?  Some games have done that, and it can work pretty well if you do it right.

    I would argue that there is also a sense of purpose to the universe as well. image

    But I agree, game randomness shouldn't just be about gear, I'd like to see the game world randomize, say by having a key bridge get knocked down by rampaging giants, and unless the players built a new one, people would be taking the long way to somewhere.

    Weather could be so much more, instead of just visibility loss, snowfalls could actually impede movement, or be so severe as to turn the tide of a castle siege, or ocean invasion.

    I guess basically they need to add the random elements, or bad luck found in the real world to make these virtual worlds seem more realistic and alive.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
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  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Somewhere in nowherePosts: 2,326Member Uncommon

    Oh yes, do I hate it... RNG has to be one of my biggest arch-nemeses in MMO's

    In EQ2 I only got rare mats half as fast as some others.

    In WoW drops for raid attunement quests took weeks to get, while others did it in a day. Guilds moved on to different content while I was still stuck on the same shit. Generally drops sucked.

    In Aion I wasted tons of enhancement stones and the like, failed the blood quest over and over again until I quit.

    In SW:TOR I still didn't have any decent amount of battlemaster gear even after I hit valor rank 90+ while newbies got entire sets in their first try and started to destroy me. PvE gear was even worse.

    Currently in Age of Wulin everything and anything is random, I have (mostly) shitty luck and can look forward to randoms beating me forever and ever onwards due to having ancient skills.

    etc.

    I frekking HATE it, you put time and effort in but are kicked in the arse by simple bad luck. Sure I've got my lucky streaks as well, but they're not even close to making up for all the frustration.

    RNG in games is fine as long as it is controllable by the player to some extent (and not just by expensive cashshop items).

    Devs should look at it similarly to critical strikes in most games: you usually have some stats or feats that you can increase to make you crit more often. ALL RNG should work like that.

    That way you can still get lucky as a newbie player who hasn't invested much into the game, but you can also be relatively sure to get your stuff if you've been working for it as a veteran.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Think about it like this. The random number generators used in most applications aren't really random. If you know the starting state of any RNG, you know what the next number in the "random" series is going to be. RNGs aren't really producing random numbers, they're just producing numbers that can't be predicted without knowing all the inputs. The universe is like that. We just don't know the macroscopic inputs. The universe isn't all that random at all.

    If you need a random number generator to be fast, then yeah, you make it predictable like that.  When you really need it to be random, you don't take the next output from some simple formula; you make it depend on highly unpredicable things like the exact latency in CPU clock cycles to grab some bit of data from memory while a ton of other things are going.

    If you genuinely knew the exact state of the universe at some point in time, would that really tell you the next output of a really random random number generator?  Not necessarily.  There is still some dispute as to whether quantum mechanics is truly random or just we haven't found the underlying formulas that make it look random; last I heard, physicists mostly favored the "it really is random" side.

    But again, there are a lot of perfectly good probability distributions besides the uniform distribution on some set.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Everything in the universe is random.  It's only a question of random with which probability distribution.  This outcome with probability 1 and all others with probability 0 is a perfectly good probability distribution.  For many purposes, however, it's boring.

    But I think that game randomness focusing so heavily upon loot is doing things wrong.  Why not have some randomness in mob spawns instead--both locations and which particular mobs spawn?  Some games have done that, and it can work pretty well if you do it right.

    I would argue that there is also a sense of purpose to the universe as well. image

    And there's a lot of intelligence behind the probability distributions chosen for a lot of game mechanics, too.  Indeed, I'd argue that designing game mechanics is mostly a matter of choosing interesting probability distributions.  Random doesn't imply meaningless.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Scot
    Gambling is the newish F2P disease. And when I say F2P that's just where it started, any MMO with a cash shop be it P2P, hybrid or B2P MMOs are very likely to catch it as well.

    Yes....f2p is where random came from. I never once spent months raiding content for a drop in a p2p game. Your opinion isn't crazy biased at all.

    Didn't you get the memo? Apparently everything from floods to AIDS is the fault of F2P and the "new generation".

    Did I say F2P is where random came from? No. I don't remember paying in a cash shop to be entitled to use the drop I got in a P2P game. This is not about randomness its about gambling for locked boxes, you might as well say this is about Monopoly as that has rolling dice which is random too.

    I got the memo, here is one for you. Is there anything about F2P MMO's you do not like? Or are they the most perfect form of entertainment the world has ever seen? For that matter is there anything about MMO's, regardless of financial model that you feel is not fabulous? Or are we just going to get cheerleading from you as usual? And it would be interesting if you could recommend a F2P MMO for me to play, as surely you must be playing one?

    Oh come on, if we're going to talk " as usual " with regards to posting what will we find in your history scot ?

    You say this is only about lock boxes, but it's not. The OP is clearly giving examples of RNG in mmos and how they get used as " content" Paying a per use free in a cash shop is more expensive but it isn't totally different than paying a flat fee with a raid lock out and a random loot table. They're both shitty game mechanics designed to milk the player under the guise of "content " People just don't seem to notice as much when it's their time they're being milked for.

    If you want to nerd rage about f2p go for it. I don't think they're the be all end all of pay models. But RNG is not unique to them.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Scot
    Gambling is the newish F2P disease. And when I say F2P that's just where it started, any MMO with a cash shop be it P2P, hybrid or B2P MMOs are very likely to catch it as well.

    Yes....f2p is where random came from. I never once spent months raiding content for a drop in a p2p game. Your opinion isn't crazy biased at all.

    Didn't you get the memo? Apparently everything from floods to AIDS is the fault of F2P and the "new generation".

    Did I say F2P is where random came from? No. I don't remember paying in a cash shop to be entitled to use the drop I got in a P2P game. This is not about randomness its about gambling for locked boxes, you might as well say this is about Monopoly as that has rolling dice which is random too.

    I got the memo, here is one for you. Is there anything about F2P MMO's you do not like? Or are they the most perfect form of entertainment the world has ever seen? For that matter is there anything about MMO's, regardless of financial model that you feel is not fabulous? Or are we just going to get cheerleading from you as usual? And it would be interesting if you could recommend a F2P MMO for me to play, as surely you must be playing one?

    Actually pretty much everything in the OP was about randomness that exists heavily in p2p, virtually nothing in it was about lock boxes at all.

    when your fail to enchant your gears ?  Just randomness as it exists in p2p, no lockboxes here

    When you fail to craft something ?  Just randomness as it exists in p2p, no lock boxes here

    When boss that you hard work to take down drop random trash ?  Just randomness as it exists in p2p, no lock boxes here

    When chest box reward drop a crap ?  Just randomness as it exists in p2p.  There are lock boxes with chest, but the randomness of getting crap is not a lockbox

    When quest ask for 10 rats tail with 5% change drop ?  Just randomness as it exists in p2p, no lockboxes here.

    When developers ninja patch and change drop rate ?

     

    True in some f2p, they increase the chance of good stuff, but the RNG exists heavily in p2p.  IMO f2p is no worse than p2p in RNG.  At least f2p gave you a way to reduce the RNG.

    Any f2p vs p2p debate in this thread is complete hijacking and IMO totally irrelevant.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot
    Gambling is the newish F2P disease.

    Seriously? UO, SWG, EVE, EQ, AC... none of them had the stuff the OP is talking about - random loot, random drops or random change of failure at crafting?  Is this revisionist history or just a really polarized view blanketing every aspect of MMOs for you?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Originally posted by lizardbones Think about it like this. The random number generators used in most applications aren't really random. If you know the starting state of any RNG, you know what the next number in the "random" series is going to be. RNGs aren't really producing random numbers, they're just producing numbers that can't be predicted without knowing all the inputs. The universe is like that. We just don't know the macroscopic inputs. The universe isn't all that random at all.
    If you need a random number generator to be fast, then yeah, you make it predictable like that.  When you really need it to be random, you don't take the next output from some simple formula; you make it depend on highly unpredicable things like the exact latency in CPU clock cycles to grab some bit of data from memory while a ton of other things are going.

    If you genuinely knew the exact state of the universe at some point in time, would that really tell you the next output of a really random random number generator?  Not necessarily.  There is still some dispute as to whether quantum mechanics is truly random or just we haven't found the underlying formulas that make it look random; last I heard, physicists mostly favored the "it really is random" side.

    But again, there are a lot of perfectly good probability distributions besides the uniform distribution on some set.



    They have built a truly random number generator, based on quantum computing. (Quantum random number generator and ANU Quantum Random Number Server) With something like this, knowing the starting state doesn't give you any information on the current or future state of the system.

    **

    But note that when I say the universe isn't random, I made sure to say, "macroscopically". Objects in motion will stay in motion, objects at rest will stay at rest, electrons will generally squiggle around photons, and so on. If the universe was very well ordered macroscopically, our brains wouldn't work.

    **

    The universe is probabilistic though, regardless of the scale you're looking on.

    The definitions of "random" don't seem to have much to do with probability so much as they seem to have to do with expectations. Like, it's all relative. If you don't know the starting state of an RNG, then it's random. If you do know the starting state of an RNG, then it's not random. It seems to depend on what you know.

    I know this is off the thread's topic, but this seems slightly more interesting. Sorry. I'll stop now.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • crack_foxcrack_fox WellingtonPosts: 402Member
    Originally posted by iixviiiix

    Make it simple :

    Do anyone here ever feel mad  ...

    when you fail ...

    ... why we keep the random gamble ?

    I get annoyed, but I enjoy the element of chance. I like surprise and spontaneity. Failure can be frustrating if you feel that you have no influence over outcomes. Players ought to be able to mitigate that to some degree - at least in the examples of enchantment and crafting. But I don't want complete control and guaranteed success.

    For me, predictability leads to boredom and randomness is necessary. I want there to always be the possibility for the unexpected to occur, particularly where magic is concerned. This applies equally to both spectacular success and catastrophic failure.

    I do agree on the example of the rat tail drop chance. That kind of shit is just tired and needs to go, along with the rat tails 'quests' themselves.

     

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member

    Actually I find lockboxes the least annoying out of all this crap. I hate gambling so I don't use them but I've never seen a game force you to open them. On the other hand having to kill 50 bears to get the 5 bear claws I need really makes me rage.

     

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