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I feel like the new generation missed the "Point"

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  • thestorytellthestorytell viennaPosts: 18Member
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by thestorytell
    Originally posted by BearKnight

    As the title says, I feel as if there is a newer generation of gamers,.... ......

     /end-lackOfCoffee-rant 

    Sincerely,

    Bear

    Being an 80ies guy and having played the orignal Everquest back when it had a sub I could agree with a lot of what you say and feel.

    However.... you could say the same about the newer generation of moviegoers, music listeners or whatever. But its simply that "the times they are a changing".

    If its evolution or de-evolution whats going on with MMOs will have to be judged by the generation after the current  I'm afraid  ; )

     

    The problem is that with MMORPGs this shift from old-school to new-school brought with it an increase in the playerbase. It's not simply that the times are changing; it's a deliberate move to make the genre more mainstream which brings with it certain unfortunate changes to the games.

    Personally I would love to have my old Everquest back - including the playerbase.

    But gaming reflects the cold, hard reality: The majority always gets what it wants - no matter if they are "wrong" or "right" (by who's standards anyway?)

    So the way todays MMOs are designed is the way the majority wants them, it's really that simple. Those of us who don't like it have to play along, find a niche game or return to P&P - and patiently wait till the tides turn and old-school is the new "cool"  ; )

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon

    I'm up to page 38 so apologies for skipping the rest.


    Originally posted by colddog04
    Time commitment is not based on how difficult a game is inherently.

    Interesting to see you think SWTOR is the best game ever; but I could not disagree more with your assessment of difficulty.



    Originally posted by colddog04
    I'll let you guys get back to it. I expect at least 2 posts in a row after this otherwise I'll be disappointed.


    You sound bitter.


    Originally posted by colddog04
    But it's not. That's what everyone has been trying to tell you.


    Funny, I saw just a few posters here agree with you.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Indeed. And maybe there are just a few jaded old timers who think MMORPGs can only be done one way ("theirs") and anything else is heresy.

    Spock to Kirk in Star Trek VI - The Undiscovered Country:

    "Is it possible that we two, you and I, have grown so old and so inflexible that we have outlived our usefulness?"

    But they hadn't and they didn't need replacing by you. :D

    First, I'm also one of those oldtimers, I'm just not jaded and still enjoy newer games and the improvements they bring to the table.

    Second, I never pretended to replace anyone.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon
    I give new MMORPGs a chance but really the genre is very narrow when you get beyond the superficial. I had more deaths in ESO this weekend then I had in all MMORPGs combined I've played in recent so maybe things are truly changing for better or worst. Though my sandbox heart thinks the setting would make an awesome sandbox.
  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Indeed. And maybe there are just a few jaded old timers who think MMORPGs can only be done one way ("theirs") and anything else is heresy.

    Spock to Kirk in Star Trek VI - The Undiscovered Country:

    "Is it possible that we two, you and I, have grown so old and so inflexible that we have outlived our usefulness?"

    But they hadn't and they didn't need replacing by you. :D

    First, I'm also one of those oldtimers, I'm just not jaded and still enjoy newer games and the improvements they bring to the table.

    Second, I never pretended to replace anyone.

    I was thinking of Picard replacing Kirk/Spock there.

    I too find good elements in todays MMOs, but on the balance we have lost more than we have gained. We have gained few good new gaming systems, the games are smaller, we have lost good gaming systems or had them denigrated and have less lore. Of course there have been exceptions but not on every count. What we have gained is mostly in the area of graphics and audio, I would put it to you that games have always got better in those areas so I am not sure that counts as a New MMO success. We do have better UI's, alternative combat (some better, some worse), a more universal buddy system; and number of gameplay systems like looking for raid that are good or bad depending on who you talk to.

    So overall for me the loses were greater than the gains.

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Oak Brook, MIPosts: 673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot

    So overall for me the loses were greater than the gains.

    Can't really ask for more than that.

    All that this wake needs is a eulogy. And maybe a lot of Irish whiskey.

  • rbialorbialo WarszawaPosts: 32Member Uncommon

    Lots of rumbling when "we all know"(tm) that the problem is in.... easy money.


    RPG (the paper ones log time ago) were about adventures. Your char was having new adventure or died and your had to make a new one. Your GM had to have new ideas or you did not play at all.
    Now with computer based RPG (which is what I thing MMO RPG were to be) developers seam to think that all they need is create a game once and form time to time add new levels or new dungeon.

    It wont work!
    Every rpg need a GM, a story teller, someone or something that will simulate all the work a GM made in paper based rpg. New ideas, new parts of world, new enemies, and most of all - an element of surprise, which I'm afraid can't be achieved by per-programed scripts.

    Even most sandboxed game in the world will end at some point if there is no GM equivalent. There must be something or someone driving the story (or the world or the quests) forward. Else players will get bored with "It is all the same" or "I did everything" and game will eventually die.


    So why easy money?
    Well, because developers can't "program a GM" (a really good one that is), but they want to earn money on this new hype acronym "MMO" - they program and sell poor imitations and false promises of what a computer based RPG supposed to be.

    It is all about money. Easy money.

      
    B)
  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thestorytell
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by thestorytell
    Originally posted by BearKnight

    As the title says, I feel as if there is a newer generation of gamers,.... ......

     /end-lackOfCoffee-rant 

    Sincerely,

    Bear

    Being an 80ies guy and having played the orignal Everquest back when it had a sub I could agree with a lot of what you say and feel.

    However.... you could say the same about the newer generation of moviegoers, music listeners or whatever. But its simply that "the times they are a changing".

    If its evolution or de-evolution whats going on with MMOs will have to be judged by the generation after the current  I'm afraid  ; )

     

    The problem is that with MMORPGs this shift from old-school to new-school brought with it an increase in the playerbase. It's not simply that the times are changing; it's a deliberate move to make the genre more mainstream which brings with it certain unfortunate changes to the games.

    Personally I would love to have my old Everquest back - including the playerbase.

    But gaming reflects the cold, hard reality: The majority always gets what it wants - no matter if they are "wrong" or "right" (by who's standards anyway?)

    So the way todays MMOs are designed is the way the majority wants them, it's really that simple. Those of us who don't like it have to play along, find a niche game or return to P&P - and patiently wait till the tides turn and old-school is the new "cool"  ; )

    Oh don't get my wrong, I agree with you on that. There's no denying that more people are willing to play these themepark games than the "oldschool" sandbox games. Obviously you can get into some deeper conversations regarding player retention and if it's accurate to say they "prefer" something when they haven't ever tried the alternative, but as you say the cold hard reality is that themeparks won out, which is why we have them.

  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOPosts: 1,417Member

    they dont care about why MMOs came to be, they just know it's the new "cool" way to play games and they are just thrilled to death that their favorite single player IPs (round pegs) are cramming themselves into square holes.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • st3v3b0st3v3b0 Gainesville, FLPosts: 147Member Uncommon

    I think where new MMO's miss out today as they are doing too much mediocre work and not enough specialized excellence.  They want one game that will appeal to everyone at the cost of being mediocre.  This is where I think some of the focused MMO's like Star Citizen and Camelot Unchained will prevail as they are focusing on a smaller objective in order to provide what I call specialized excellence.

    Let's face it, EQ was a hardcore PvE game and that is where it really excelled.  DAoC was a great PvP game.  Vanilla WoW was a great casual PvE game and from there is where the MMO scene got muddled with jack of all trades and master of none.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Indeed. And maybe there are just a few jaded old timers who think MMORPGs can only be done one way ("theirs") and anything else is heresy.

    Spock to Kirk in Star Trek VI - The Undiscovered Country:

    "Is it possible that we two, you and I, have grown so old and so inflexible that we have outlived our usefulness?"

    But they hadn't and they didn't need replacing by you. :D

    First, I'm also one of those oldtimers, I'm just not jaded and still enjoy newer games and the improvements they bring to the table.

    Second, I never pretended to replace anyone.

    I was thinking of Picard replacing Kirk/Spock there.

    I too find good elements in todays MMOs, but on the balance we have lost more than we have gained. We have gained few good new gaming systems, the games are smaller, we have lost good gaming systems or had them denigrated and have less lore. Of course there have been exceptions but not on every count. What we have gained is mostly in the area of graphics and audio, I would put it to you that games have always got better in those areas so I am not sure that counts as a New MMO success. We do have better UI's, alternative combat (some better, some worse), a more universal buddy system; and number of gameplay systems like looking for raid that are good or bad depending on who you talk to.

    So overall for me the loses were greater than the gains.

    I agree completely and this is something I was thinking about earlier today. Newer games are given credit for certain advancements that maybe they shouldn't be credited with. I think of it like adjusting for inflation when looking at certain economic indicators. If you could adjust for the average level of polish and aesthetics in gaming in general, I'm not sure these MMOs have much more to offer.

     

    That isn't to say that things haven't changed for the better at all, I just think it's important to keep things in perspective.

  • thestorytellthestorytell viennaPosts: 18Member
    Originally posted by st3v3b0

    Let's face it, EQ was a hardcore PvE game and that is where it really excelled.  DAoC was a great PvP game.  Vanilla WoW was a great casual PvE game and from there is where the MMO scene got muddled with jack of all trades and master of none.

    There is the problem.

    Many people assume the playerbase has always been the same and that MMOs just shifted to please all or different segments.

    But in fact the playerbase has changed drastically just within 15 years - nowadays you'll nerver find 500.000 players who sub for 19.90 a month for a game  that denies them any fast travelling and makes them do a naked corpse run when they die.

    Developers/publishers are simply trying to please the current largest market segment. And that wants a dumbed down WoW with teleportation to instances, mounts and epic gear within the first 5 level and auto-everything

    I am not pleased with that but I have to play what the crowd asks for and wait for the return of old-school which - let's face it - will probably never come.

     

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thestorytell
    Originally posted by st3v3b0

    Let's face it, EQ was a hardcore PvE game and that is where it really excelled.  DAoC was a great PvP game.  Vanilla WoW was a great casual PvE game and from there is where the MMO scene got muddled with jack of all trades and master of none.

    There is the problem.

    Many people assume the playerbase has always been the same and that MMOs just shifted to please all or different segments.

    But in fact the playerbase has changed drastically just within 15 years - nowadays you'll nerver find 500.000 players who sub for 19.90 a month for a game  that denies them any fast travelling and makes them do a naked corpse run when they die.

    Developers/publishers are simply trying to please the current largest market segment. And that wants a dumbed down WoW with teleportation to instances, mounts and epic gear within the first 5 level and auto-everything

    I am not pleased with that but I have to play what the crowd asks for and wait for the return of old-school which - let's face it - will probably never come.

    Hmmm.... EVE?

  • thestorytellthestorytell viennaPosts: 18Member
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by thestorytell
    Originally posted by st3v3b0

    Let's face it, EQ was a hardcore PvE game and that is where it really excelled.  DAoC was a great PvP game.  Vanilla WoW was a great casual PvE game and from there is where the MMO scene got muddled with jack of all trades and master of none.

    There is the problem.

    Many people assume the playerbase has always been the same and that MMOs just shifted to please all or different segments.

    But in fact the playerbase has changed drastically just within 15 years - nowadays you'll nerver find 500.000 players who sub for 19.90 a month for a game  that denies them any fast travelling and makes them do a naked corpse run when they die.

    Developers/publishers are simply trying to please the current largest market segment. And that wants a dumbed down WoW with teleportation to instances, mounts and epic gear within the first 5 level and auto-everything

    I am not pleased with that but I have to play what the crowd asks for and wait for the return of old-school which - let's face it - will probably never come.

    Hmmm.... EVE?

    Old-school MMOs (or games in general) are  considered to have their roots in P&P RPGs.

    I don't see EVE count as old-school under these terms. And yes, I played the TRAVELLER RPG back in the old days and and EVE can't also compare to that.

    Not denying that EVE is a good game, it just doesn't fit the bill.

  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHPosts: 2,628Member
    Originally posted by thestorytell
    Originally posted by st3v3b0

    Let's face it, EQ was a hardcore PvE game and that is where it really excelled.  DAoC was a great PvP game.  Vanilla WoW was a great casual PvE game and from there is where the MMO scene got muddled with jack of all trades and master of none.

    There is the problem.

    Many people assume the playerbase has always been the same and that MMOs just shifted to please all or different segments.

    But in fact the playerbase has changed drastically just within 15 years - nowadays you'll nerver find 500.000 players who sub for 19.90 a month for a game  that denies them any fast travelling and makes them do a naked corpse run when they die.

    Developers/publishers are simply trying to please the current largest market segment. And that wants a dumbed down WoW with teleportation to instances, mounts and epic gear within the first 5 level and auto-everything

    I am not pleased with that but I have to play what the crowd asks for and wait for the return of old-school which - let's face it - will probably never come.

     

     I don't agree, 500k is not a huge amount anymore with the expanded pool.  If something is done well, I see 500k very doable, but it also needs to be more old school, like EQ or a UO/EQ type mix...No way a new fast level game will do it, people will spit it out too quick.

    The problem is, people putting up money don't dream of 500k loyal paying people, they dream of millions when they give money.  You can make money on bonds, but the stock market is the higher risk, more potential investment...Same with mmo money imo.

     

    I think it would take a bigger name in the industry to pull it off, if people are going to bank on 500k subs at $15 a pop, which is good money, they would have to feel like it is a somewhat safe bet that the person could pull the game off.

     

    Yeah it may not happen, but you never know.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thestorytell
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by thestorytell
    Originally posted by st3v3b0

    Let's face it, EQ was a hardcore PvE game and that is where it really excelled.  DAoC was a great PvP game.  Vanilla WoW was a great casual PvE game and from there is where the MMO scene got muddled with jack of all trades and master of none.

    There is the problem.

    Many people assume the playerbase has always been the same and that MMOs just shifted to please all or different segments.

    But in fact the playerbase has changed drastically just within 15 years - nowadays you'll nerver find 500.000 players who sub for 19.90 a month for a game  that denies them any fast travelling and makes them do a naked corpse run when they die.

    Developers/publishers are simply trying to please the current largest market segment. And that wants a dumbed down WoW with teleportation to instances, mounts and epic gear within the first 5 level and auto-everything

    I am not pleased with that but I have to play what the crowd asks for and wait for the return of old-school which - let's face it - will probably never come.

    Hmmm.... EVE?

    Old-school MMOs (or games in general) are  considered to have their roots in P&P RPGs.

    I don't see EVE count as old-school under these terms. And yes, I played the TRAVELLER RPG back in the old days and and EVE can't also compare to that.

    Not denying that EVE is a good game, it just doesn't fit the bill.

    Well the jist of your post was that you won't find a game with similar unforgiving elements, and EVE does have those. Not sure why a game having its roots in P&P RPGs would be a particular turn off to players. Normally people talk about the difficulty and, like I said, unforgiving nature of oldschool MMOs.

  • GuyClinchGuyClinch Sunnyvale, CAPosts: 485Member

    Themepark games are not the hopeless disaster that people think. I think that GW2, WoW, and FF are all very good theme park games right now. Its true that they lack the long term retention tactics that old school games relied on. But that's by design.

     

    You see adding elements of sandbox, difficulty gating, social gating (you have to know the right people to advance your character) and grind gating (how long it takes you to level to get gear etc etc) - it CAN add to player retention. It can also turn players off.

    This is what Blizzard found out - that players very early on were giving up. So rather then strive for retention alone they tried to make the game easy to play but hard to master. That was the mantra in BC - and its a good one. Nowadays yes its shifted too much towards easy to play. But the point is balance needs to be found..

     

    Despite the woe is me bit from old school gamers - many of these new games are quite good. GW2, WoW and FF all seem to be excellent games. Just because they can't keep someone occupied "forever' doesn't mean they aren't good games. There is a some kind of 'play limit' that the game shoot for.

    The average player can play maybe 1000 hours of an MMO without being 'done' in say GW2. Sure EQ1 might take 10,000 or more but the downside of this approach is that so many players would be turned off.. It's a challenge for developers and one that they are by and large meeting..

    These games are successful and they are making a good chunk of money. GW2 has more then covered their development costs - I'd wager 2x over by now. And WoW must have cleared 10x their development costs at this point..

  • BrynnBrynn Albuquerque, NMPosts: 345Member
    Being an online gamer from Asheron's Call, through all the many online games over the years, I totally agree with the OP.
  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GuyClinch

    Themepark games are not the hopeless disaster that people think. I think that GW2, WoW, and FF are all very good theme park games right now. Its true that they lack the long term retention tactics that old school games relied on. But that's by design.

     

    You see adding elements of sandbox, difficulty gating, social gating (you have to know the right people to advance your character) and grind gating (how long it takes you to level to get gear etc etc) - it CAN add to player retention. It can also turn players off.

    This is what Blizzard found out - that players very early on were giving up. So rather then strive for retention alone they tried to make the game easy to play but hard to master. That was the mantra in BC - and its a good one. Nowadays yes its shifted too much towards easy to play. But the point is balance needs to be found..

     

    Despite the woe is me bit from old school gamers - many of these new games are quite good. GW2, WoW and FF all seem to be excellent games. Just because they can't keep someone occupied "forever' doesn't mean they aren't good games. There is a some kind of 'play limit' that the game shoot for.

    The average player can play maybe 1000 hours of an MMO without being 'done' in say GW2. Sure EQ1 might take 10,000 or more but the downside of this approach is that so many players would be turned off.. It's a challenge for developers and one that they are by and large meeting..

    These games are successful and they are making a good chunk of money. GW2 has more then covered their development costs - I'd wager 2x over by now. And WoW must have cleared 10x their development costs at this point..

    I dunno it seems like a totally reasonable complaint to point out that lack of longevity in a subscription-based game. A lot of us who complain about modern MMOs are just wise to their carrot-on-a-stick gameplay tricks.

  • thestorytellthestorytell viennaPosts: 18Member
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by thestorytell
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by thestorytell
    Originally posted by st3v3b0

    Let's face it, EQ was a hardcore PvE game and that is where it really excelled.  DAoC was a great PvP game.  Vanilla WoW was a great casual PvE game and from there is where the MMO scene got muddled with jack of all trades and master of none.

    There is the problem.

    Many people assume the playerbase has always been the same and that MMOs just shifted to please all or different segments.

    But in fact the playerbase has changed drastically just within 15 years - nowadays you'll nerver find 500.000 players who sub for 19.90 a month for a game  that denies them any fast travelling and makes them do a naked corpse run when they die.

    Developers/publishers are simply trying to please the current largest market segment. And that wants a dumbed down WoW with teleportation to instances, mounts and epic gear within the first 5 level and auto-everything

    I am not pleased with that but I have to play what the crowd asks for and wait for the return of old-school which - let's face it - will probably never come.

    Hmmm.... EVE?

    Old-school MMOs (or games in general) are  considered to have their roots in P&P RPGs.

    I don't see EVE count as old-school under these terms. And yes, I played the TRAVELLER RPG back in the old days and and EVE can't also compare to that.

    Not denying that EVE is a good game, it just doesn't fit the bill.

    Well the jist of your post was that you won't find a game with similar unforgiving elements, and EVE does have those. Not sure why a game having its roots in P&P RPGs would be a particular turn off to players. Normally people talk about the difficulty and, like I said, unforgiving nature of oldschool MMOs.

    Please care to actually read what you quote

    But in fact the playerbase has changed drastically just within 15 years - nowadays you'll nerver find 500.000 players who sub for 19.90 a month for a game that denies them any fast travelling and makes them do a naked corpse run when they die.

    I never said  I can't find an "unforgiving enough" game, not even that I am looking for it.

    My statement is, that there is no playerbase anymore  that would  pay the sub for the original Everquest .

    And regarding EVE - it might surprise you but an SF MMO where most of the gameplay is about space and ship combat is NO substitute for a high fantasy setting with dungeon crawls. Just because its unforgiving doesn't mean that the setting has to appeal to everyone. Or do you actually think it does? O_o

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thestorytell
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by thestorytell
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by thestorytell
    Originally posted by st3v3b0

    Let's face it, EQ was a hardcore PvE game and that is where it really excelled.  DAoC was a great PvP game.  Vanilla WoW was a great casual PvE game and from there is where the MMO scene got muddled with jack of all trades and master of none.

    There is the problem.

    Many people assume the playerbase has always been the same and that MMOs just shifted to please all or different segments.

    But in fact the playerbase has changed drastically just within 15 years - nowadays you'll nerver find 500.000 players who sub for 19.90 a month for a game  that denies them any fast travelling and makes them do a naked corpse run when they die.

    Developers/publishers are simply trying to please the current largest market segment. And that wants a dumbed down WoW with teleportation to instances, mounts and epic gear within the first 5 level and auto-everything

    I am not pleased with that but I have to play what the crowd asks for and wait for the return of old-school which - let's face it - will probably never come.

    Hmmm.... EVE?

    Old-school MMOs (or games in general) are  considered to have their roots in P&P RPGs.

    I don't see EVE count as old-school under these terms. And yes, I played the TRAVELLER RPG back in the old days and and EVE can't also compare to that.

    Not denying that EVE is a good game, it just doesn't fit the bill.

    Well the jist of your post was that you won't find a game with similar unforgiving elements, and EVE does have those. Not sure why a game having its roots in P&P RPGs would be a particular turn off to players. Normally people talk about the difficulty and, like I said, unforgiving nature of oldschool MMOs.

    Please care to actually read what you quote

    But in fact the playerbase has changed drastically just within 15 years - nowadays you'll nerver find 500.000 players who sub for 19.90 a month for a game that denies them any fast travelling and makes them do a naked corpse run when they die.

    I never said  I can't find an "unforgiving enough" game, not even that I am looking for it.

    My statement is, that there is no playerbase anymore  that would  pay the sub for the original Everquest .

    And regarding EVE - it might surprise you but an SF MMO where most of the gameplay is about space and ship combat is NO substitute for a high fantasy setting with dungeon crawls. Just because its unforgiving doesn't mean that the setting has to appeal to everyone. Or do you actually think it does? O_o

    You said you'll never find 500,000 players subbing for a game that denies them any fast travel and makes them do a naked corpse run. EVE fits this description very well.

  • GuyClinchGuyClinch Sunnyvale, CAPosts: 485Member

    [quote]I dunno it seems like a totally reasonable complaint to point out that lack of longevity in a subscription-based game. A lot of us who complain about modern MMOs are just wise to their carrot-on-a-stick gameplay tricks. [/quote]

     

    Longevity is trivial for the developers to implement. It's just that longevity that doesn't tick the crap out of the players they DO have or turn off future ones that is really difficult to pull off. Companies struggle to hit this balance..

    It seems to me a large percentage of the MMO crowd wants content that cannot be delivered. They essentially want a Holo deck when current computers are basically a series of light switches. People DEMAND content like the little stories they have in GW2 or the quests they have in WoW.

    You can't have endless hours of this style of themepark content. This is because quality themepark content has to be HAND CODED. Its themepark quality with some sparks of longevity OR sandboxes that MOST players find really boring. The developers usually choose to go with the themepark approach - because its leads to more satifisfaction for the players.

     

    The other issue I see in threads like this that are DOWN on the genre is a lack of understanding about how HUGELY PROFITABLE World of Warcraft is - and why other companies will be chasing their model for generations. They have built the Holy Grail..

     

    For years Banks and other institutions have dreamed of computer that would just trade stocks automatically and turn that into profit. In a way World of Warcraft is the closest thing to this. Its a computer program where they just need to spend a modest amount of money upgrading every year and half and it brings 1Billion dollars of revenue or so every year. It's basically a money printing machine.

    Do you think they spent even 100 million on the last expansion? Or Cata? Talk about a return on your investment. WoW might be one of the best performing investments ever. People are never going to stop chasing it..

    So no MMOS are doing well - even if its really only one major player cashing in - and longevity is only a problem if you want to attract a small audience for a long time instead of a large audience for a short one. I think most companies prefer their money upfront..

     

     

     

     

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GuyClinch

    [quote]I dunno it seems like a totally reasonable complaint to point out that lack of longevity in a subscription-based game. A lot of us who complain about modern MMOs are just wise to their carrot-on-a-stick gameplay tricks. [/quote]

     

    Longevity is trivial for the developers to implement. It's just that longevity that doesn't tick the crap out of the players they DO have or turn off future ones that is really difficult to pull off. Companies struggle to hit this balance..

    It seems to me a large percentage of the MMO crowd wants content that cannot be delivered. They essentially want a Holo deck when current computers are basically a series of light switches. People DEMAND content like the little stories they have in GW2 or the quests they have in WoW.

    You can't have endless hours of this style of themepark content. This is because quality themepark content has to be HAND CODED. Its themepark quality with some sparks of longevity OR sandboxes that MOST players find really boring. The developers usually choose to go with the themepark approach - because its leads to more satifisfaction for the players.

     

    The other issue I see in threads like this that are DOWN on the genre is a lack of understanding about how HUGELY PROFITABLE World of Warcraft is - and why other companies will be chasing their model for generations. They have built the Holy Grail..

     

    For years Banks and other institutions have dreamed of computer that would just trade stocks automatically and turn that into profit. In a way World of Warcraft is the closest thing to this. Its a computer program where they just need to spend a modest amount of money upgrading every year and half and it brings 1Billion dollars of revenue or so every year. It's basically a money printing machine.

    Do you think they spent even 100 million on the last expansion? Or Cata? Talk about a return on your investment. WoW might be one of the best performing investments ever. People are never going to stop chasing it..

    So no MMOS are doing well - even if its really only one major player cashing in - and longevity is only a problem if you want to attract a small audience for a long time instead of a large audience for a short one. I think most companies prefer their money upfront..

    I agree that you can't really have endless themepark content... that's the problem with themeparks. And that's why they have to implemented endless grinds to keep people playing.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    2problems with modern players and games 1). They want great content and then want to rush past it, no less insane than wanting a great book then skimming to last page. 2) no appreciation for storytelling and lore. A game without a great story is just a series of images and key presses.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • mysticalunamysticaluna Scotia, NYPosts: 265Member Uncommon

    I'd pay for a sub to Eq1 without any fast travel and corpse runs, as long as it had the original community social aspect of EQ1.

    I'm tired of games being about soloing and silent zerg runs and boring daily grind quests. Everquest had almost no quests

    (ironically), and it was a true mmo. Now games have forgotten the socialization aspect, and they are all about pointless

    grinding of loot and daily quests to get more loot. 

     

    Everquest 1 actually had class design that worked and was balanced. Druids and Wizards could teleport people, and gameplay that was hard and challenging, especially crafting where you could use your materials and fail the combine and lose all of your materials. Tradeskills should be connected and interwoven like they were on vanilla original Everquest 2. 

    Games have missed the point. WoW doesn't add fun new crafting recipes, or even finish the darkmoon faire. I thought that the faire would get some cool profession recipes at some point but now it has been like 2 years. Why don't we ever get fun new profession recipes? 

    SWToR ruined crafting, they didn't give cool unique recipes or any fluff cosmetic content or housing at all (decorating). 

    Games should be more like Star Wars Galaxies. Take the gameplay mechanics of Everquest 1 and add in the SWG crafting and player housing/player shops and guild towns. The multiple planets and the ability to get housing blueprints, give us architects and bio-engineers. Give us politicians to be the mayors of our cities, give us lotteries and fun mini-games, give us the Everquest 1 casino in shadow haven expanded with more games!!! 

    Give us fun things to do like Image Designer, Dancer and Musician and places to hang out in like Cantinas!! Non-combat missions !! 

    Taking the farming of WoW's sunsong ranch in pandaria, mix in more Lord of the Rings Online and farmville, and have us farming for our professions. We should have plenty of things to do and see, lots of exploration but not overcrowded servers merged together creating pointless pve competition and camping. 

    We should have shared quests that everyone can update together to provide teamwork and friendly comraderie. So that everyone learns how to help each other and respect each other , and kill rare name together and tame rare pets together. Bosses should be on a reasonable lower timer for respawns, so that people aren't wasting time camping instead they are playing the game. 

    For every 1 person camping that is one person not grouping or raiding and not playing with others. If everyone is camping then no one is grouping or raiding and people start feeling the game is "dead' or is "dying",b ecause everyone is busy soloing their daily quests and camping solo mobs. 

    Instead they have to have more heroic group oriented content, and allow everyone to get updates at the same time... 

    How did games go so wrong? Everquest 1 had it right , before they nerfed that, and nerfed Vanilla Eq2 and WoW, destroyed Vanguard Saga of Heroes because it never had any popularity after its failed launch, and canned SWG. Lord of the Rings Online is great for what it is, but now even that has been nerfed. Games aren't the way they were 12 years ago, and this genre has really gone downhill.... 

    Why does debuffing a mob no longer matter on Everquest 2? Slow meant everything on Everquest 1. Why do most groups offtank and aoe down adds on Everquest 2 and no one mezzes a mob anymore? Used to mez and crowd control on EQ1. Why did WoW take out class/racial quests and put them on trainers? So you can buy your awesome class abilities for almost no money, and no longer do a cool fun questline full of lore for them. 

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