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Should the Indies just give up already?

2

Comments

  • DrunkWolfDrunkWolf Posts: 1,178Member Uncommon

    Normally when i see a indie game i see a huge list of features that sound great and i would love to have. then i sit back and think, how on earth are they going to be able to do all this with their 5 man team and low budget?  Then the game comes out everybody who read those features runs in finds out not even half of the shit they promised is in the game, people rage and quit.

    game dead.

     

     

  • stayontargetstayontarget Tacoma, WAPosts: 6,068Member Uncommon

    Quote from OP:

    The MMO genre is a field that's dominated by big, multi-million/billion dollar businesses.

    This is exactly the reason why there are indies,  so they can break away from these big companies and all their demands.

    Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by delete5230

     

    The sad news...........Nothing is being developed by Indies, and development is usually slow. I don't see a near future Hero to save us.

    Shroud of the Avatar is indie and developing well. So is Black Desert.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by delete5230

     

    The sad news...........Nothing is being developed by Indies, and development is usually slow. I don't see a near future Hero to save us.

    Shroud of the Avatar is indie and developing well. So is Black Desert.

    Indeed. There are indie devs out there focusing their efforts on achievable goals. CU and Albion Online have very streamlined focuses, and games like TUG show that creativity has a lot of potential when the vision is there. Time will tell.

  • NagelRitterNagelRitter fewefw, CTPosts: 607Member
    I'm not sure why indies should give up any sooner than non-indies. Sure, lots of stuff may be bad, but that is a good sign because it means lots of people have the technology available. A few good products will eventually come out, and that's worth it.

    Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
    Currently playing: GW2, EVE
    Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  • MMOredfalconMMOredfalcon Mitchell, ONPosts: 132Member Common
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

     

    Originally posted by MMOredfalcon

    So on the OP...can someone tell me exactly which AAA company has come out with a decent MMO in the past ten years?

    World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Guild Wars 2, Everquest 2...

      I asked which AAA company came out with a decent MMO in the past ten years.  Not the list of WoW clones.

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member

    AAA companies will probably never make the type of MMO I really want to play so indies are my only hope. Indie companies make some of the best single player games. The production costs have thusfar kept them from making decent MMOs but stuff like Unity seems to be lessening it.

     

    I hope the future consists of a lot of niche indie MMOs serving different markets rather than the kind of huge boring one size fits all goliaths we have  now. 

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,774Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOredfalcon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

     

    Originally posted by MMOredfalcon

    So on the OP...can someone tell me exactly which AAA company has come out with a decent MMO in the past ten years?

    World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Guild Wars 2, Everquest 2...

      I asked which AAA company came out with a decent MMO in the past ten years.  Not the list of WoW clones.

    So WoW doesn't count because it's a WoW clone, EQ2 is a WoW clone even though it launched before WoW, and GW2 is a WoW clone even though it's not really all that similar to WoW?

    Fine then.  Tecmo-Koei has made a decent MMO in the last ten years.  And it's nothing like WoW, because Koei tends not to acknowledge the existence of other game companies in their game design decisions.

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by MMOredfalcon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

     

    Originally posted by MMOredfalcon

    So on the OP...can someone tell me exactly which AAA company has come out with a decent MMO in the past ten years?

    World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Guild Wars 2, Everquest 2...

      I asked which AAA company came out with a decent MMO in the past ten years.  Not the list of WoW clones.

    So WoW doesn't count because it's a WoW clone, EQ2 is a WoW clone even though it launched before WoW, and GW2 is a WoW clone even though it's not really all that similar to WoW?

    Fine then.  Tecmo-Koei has made a decent MMO in the last ten years.  And it's nothing like WoW, because Koei tends not to acknowledge the existence of other game companies in their game design decisions.

    You didn't get the memo? Everything is a WoW clone because WoW invented mmorpgs. Got quests? WoW clone. Got gear? WoW clone. Classes? Dubya-oh-Dubya doppleganger, at your service! If it's not a perma-death sci-fi shooter built with Voxels and zero pve, it's  a WoW clone. Truthfact.

  • Solar_ProphetSolar_Prophet Columbus, OHPosts: 875Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by MMOredfalcon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

     

    Originally posted by MMOredfalcon

    So on the OP...can someone tell me exactly which AAA company has come out with a decent MMO in the past ten years?

    World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Guild Wars 2, Everquest 2...

      I asked which AAA company came out with a decent MMO in the past ten years.  Not the list of WoW clones.

    So WoW doesn't count because it's a WoW clone, EQ2 is a WoW clone even though it launched before WoW, and GW2 is a WoW clone even though it's not really all that similar to WoW?

    Fine then.  Tecmo-Koei has made a decent MMO in the last ten years.  And it's nothing like WoW, because Koei tends not to acknowledge the existence of other game companies in their game design decisions.

    Quizzical, you're forgetting that every single MMO with PvE content created after Everquest is considered a WoW clone on this site. The only exception is EVE Online, although to hear the players of that game tell it, WiS almost turned it into one.

    Tabula Rasa? WoW Clone.

    Defiance? WoW Clone.

    EverQuest 2? WoW Clone.

    Earth & Beyond? WoW Clone.

    Auto Assault? WoW Clone.

    Hex: Shards of Fate? WoW Clone... or maybe HearthStone Clone.

     

    AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,314Member Uncommon

    More importantly WoW clones are apparently not MMO's.

    And the AAA companies that produce them, are really not AAA. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member

     

    You didn't get the memo? Everything is a WoW clone because WoW invented mmorpgs. Got quests? WoW clone. Got gear? WoW clone. Classes? Dubya-oh-Dubya doppleganger, at your service! If it's not a perma-death sci-fi shooter built with Voxels and zero pve, it's  a WoW clone. Truthfact.

    Bit of a strawman argument here. Can we agree that a WoW clone is a game with quest hub based leveling, "holy trinity" based classes, a defined level cap, instanced dungeons and PVP that is at least partly  instanced and has no impact on the wider world. A very simplistic economy and crafting system and a series of instanced dungeons and raids to keep players busy once they reach level cap?

     

    WoW didn't invent all those mechanics but it combined them all into a financially successful formula and other than Guild Wars 2, it's hard to argue that the other games on the list don't share most or all of those characteristics. (and even GW2 is not as different from WoW as it first might appear).

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Newfr
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    Indie developers can do good products... they must just stop trying to do stuff they just can't do with the required quality and polish, and stick to stuff which is in their reach.

    While i agree with this statement i can't get why small niche MMO is a bad thing. You see, a lot of people here demand exactly that, because mainstream MMORPGs... well... i couldn't call em a quality product.

    A lot of people are asking for niche gameplay features which a lot of indies just can't do with the polish and quality required for those asking for it.

    I'm not suggesting that indies should stop trying, only pointing out that no one is saying small niche MMO is bad. However, just because a feature set is of interest to a small audience and  indie devs can making things for small audiences, that doesn't mean they necessarily have the ability or resources to create the niche MMO the players here want.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,473Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Newfr
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    Indie developers can do good products... they must just stop trying to do stuff they just can't do with the required quality and polish, and stick to stuff which is in their reach.

    While i agree with this statement i can't get why small niche MMO is a bad thing. You see, a lot of people here demand exactly that, because mainstream MMORPGs... well... i couldn't call em a quality product.

    A lot of people are asking for niche gameplay features which a lot of indies just can't do with the polish and quality required for those asking for it.

    I'm not suggesting that indies should stop trying, only pointing out that no one is saying small niche MMO is bad. However, just because a feature set is of interest to a small audience and  indie devs can making things for small audiences, that doesn't mean they necessarily have the ability or resources to create the niche MMO the players here want.

    IMO there is one thing that could change that would be better for the community.  Players stopped being obsessed with graphics.  If we would choose to enjoy games with much less graphic requirements we would give indies a chance to put gameplay as the emphasis.  Higher levels of details or sparkly effects don't impress me.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Newfr
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    Indie developers can do good products... they must just stop trying to do stuff they just can't do with the required quality and polish, and stick to stuff which is in their reach.

    While i agree with this statement i can't get why small niche MMO is a bad thing. You see, a lot of people here demand exactly that, because mainstream MMORPGs... well... i couldn't call em a quality product.

    A lot of people are asking for niche gameplay features which a lot of indies just can't do with the polish and quality required for those asking for it.

    I'm not suggesting that indies should stop trying, only pointing out that no one is saying small niche MMO is bad. However, just because a feature set is of interest to a small audience and  indie devs can making things for small audiences, that doesn't mean they necessarily have the ability or resources to create the niche MMO the players here want.

    IMO there is one thing that could change that would be better for the community.  Players stopped being obsessed with graphics.  If we would choose to enjoy games with much less graphic requirements we would give indies a chance to put gameplay as the emphasis.  Higher levels of details or sparkly effects don't impress me.

    Agreed. Unfortunately, that usually means a far more talented graphics team to pull it off, as they would need to come up with their own look or style and not just be low quality. Salem, Minecraft, and Mabinogi are examples of different degrees of that.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by waynejr2
     

    IMO there is one thing that could change that would be better for the community.  Players stopped being obsessed with graphics.  If we would choose to enjoy games with much less graphic requirements we would give indies a chance to put gameplay as the emphasis.  Higher levels of details or sparkly effects don't impress me.

    But look what happens when a company tries to go with a less graphics intensive game...EQN. That style tries to hide the "less intense" behind a sort of cartoon look and large numbers of people hate it. If EQN tried to go with a realistic but easy on the system style of graphic they'd be laughed at.

    High quality, graphics do look good, but what I've noticed about any game is once you've seen those great graphics for a few weeks it just sort of stops being all that great. Games that have graphics that are nothing special ( like wow ) never have that effect over time because they were never really something you focused on anyway.

    Style imo becomes much more important than quality after a certain point.

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Newfr
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    Indie developers can do good products... they must just stop trying to do stuff they just can't do with the required quality and polish, and stick to stuff which is in their reach.

    While i agree with this statement i can't get why small niche MMO is a bad thing. You see, a lot of people here demand exactly that, because mainstream MMORPGs... well... i couldn't call em a quality product.

    A lot of people are asking for niche gameplay features which a lot of indies just can't do with the polish and quality required for those asking for it.

    I'm not suggesting that indies should stop trying, only pointing out that no one is saying small niche MMO is bad. However, just because a feature set is of interest to a small audience and  indie devs can making things for small audiences, that doesn't mean they necessarily have the ability or resources to create the niche MMO the players here want.

    IMO there is one thing that could change that would be better for the community.  Players stopped being obsessed with graphics.  If we would choose to enjoy games with much less graphic requirements we would give indies a chance to put gameplay as the emphasis.  Higher levels of details or sparkly effects don't impress me.

    Agreed. Unfortunately, that usually means a far more talented graphics team to pull it off, as they would need to come up with their own look or style and not just be low quality. Salem, Minecraft, and Mabinogi are examples of different degrees of that.

    The community would probably do high end graphics for free if it were possible. Is something like that a possibility with a mmo?

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Newfr
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    Indie developers can do good products... they must just stop trying to do stuff they just can't do with the required quality and polish, and stick to stuff which is in their reach.

    While i agree with this statement i can't get why small niche MMO is a bad thing. You see, a lot of people here demand exactly that, because mainstream MMORPGs... well... i couldn't call em a quality product.

    A lot of people are asking for niche gameplay features which a lot of indies just can't do with the polish and quality required for those asking for it.

    I'm not suggesting that indies should stop trying, only pointing out that no one is saying small niche MMO is bad. However, just because a feature set is of interest to a small audience and  indie devs can making things for small audiences, that doesn't mean they necessarily have the ability or resources to create the niche MMO the players here want.

    IMO there is one thing that could change that would be better for the community.  Players stopped being obsessed with graphics.  If we would choose to enjoy games with much less graphic requirements we would give indies a chance to put gameplay as the emphasis.  Higher levels of details or sparkly effects don't impress me.

    Agreed. Unfortunately, that usually means a far more talented graphics team to pull it off, as they would need to come up with their own look or style and not just be low quality. Salem, Minecraft, and Mabinogi are examples of different degrees of that.

    The community would probably do high end graphics for free if it were possible. Is something like that a possibility with a mmo?

    I think it's possible, but the concern would be continuity in appearance. Then again, some of these MMO communities seem capable of some really amazing stuff, so I'd really like to see a group have a go at something like that. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by waynejr2
     

    IMO there is one thing that could change that would be better for the community.  Players stopped being obsessed with graphics.  If we would choose to enjoy games with much less graphic requirements we would give indies a chance to put gameplay as the emphasis.  Higher levels of details or sparkly effects don't impress me.

    But look what happens when a company tries to go with a less graphics intensive game...EQN. That style tries to hide the "less intense" behind a sort of cartoon look and large numbers of people hate it. If EQN tried to go with a realistic but easy on the system style of graphic they'd be laughed at.

    Personally it's the hiding beyond a cartoon look that turns me off. I'd be perfectly happy with realistic graphics that weren't great. Just something about the cartoon thing puts me off. One of the reasons I've never been able to get into WoW.

    I know it's a subjective thing. If you love cartoon artstyle more power to you.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    Developers should make the games they want to make, for whatever reason they want to make them. Making the game they want to make is the drive they need to actually complete a game, rather than live in perpetual alpha or beta.

    Failure though, that's part of the process. Not everything works and not everyone should be a developer. Some developers have to fail. The only way for there to not be any developers that fail is for there not to be any developers.

    I don't think the indie scene is as doomed as the OP's post would suggest. I'm seeing more indie games release than I've ever seen before. I'm seeing more avenues for indie developers to get their stuff out to the world than ever before. I think the indie scene is pretty healthy.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,774Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Newfr
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    Indie developers can do good products... they must just stop trying to do stuff they just can't do with the required quality and polish, and stick to stuff which is in their reach.

    While i agree with this statement i can't get why small niche MMO is a bad thing. You see, a lot of people here demand exactly that, because mainstream MMORPGs... well... i couldn't call em a quality product.

    A lot of people are asking for niche gameplay features which a lot of indies just can't do with the polish and quality required for those asking for it.

    I'm not suggesting that indies should stop trying, only pointing out that no one is saying small niche MMO is bad. However, just because a feature set is of interest to a small audience and  indie devs can making things for small audiences, that doesn't mean they necessarily have the ability or resources to create the niche MMO the players here want.

    IMO there is one thing that could change that would be better for the community.  Players stopped being obsessed with graphics.  If we would choose to enjoy games with much less graphic requirements we would give indies a chance to put gameplay as the emphasis.  Higher levels of details or sparkly effects don't impress me.

    Agreed. Unfortunately, that usually means a far more talented graphics team to pull it off, as they would need to come up with their own look or style and not just be low quality. Salem, Minecraft, and Mabinogi are examples of different degrees of that.

    The community would probably do high end graphics for free if it were possible. Is something like that a possibility with a mmo?

    You would have to have some very specialized tools.  Continuity of appearance as Loktofeit brings up is one issue, but not the only one.

    You can make graphics look much nicer if you don't have to worry about the performance hit:  more vertices, more textures, higher resolution textures, no shared assets, etc.  Get a bunch of people racing to make very high quality graphics in their own little section and you can easily overwhelm a system and make the game unplayable.  You'd like to have some components of artwork shared between a lot of different things, but that's harder to do if the different things are made by different people who don't communicate with each other at all, ever.

    Depending on what sort of artwork you want players to make, you can get a lot of other issues, too.  Every game engine wants its art assets formatted a particular way, so you have to get not just generic art assets, but things that fit exactly what your game wants to do.  Animation and collision detection are tricky, and again, depend greatly on exactly how your engine wants things formatted.

    There's also the issue of actually distributing artwork to other players.  Conventional game artwork takes a lot of space, and that means a lot of bandwidth.

    You can think of the character creator in many games as being a mild case of community-made artwork in a game.  But even with very, very restrictive design rules, some players in some games still manage to cause trouble.

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    Originally posted by iridescence

     

    You didn't get the memo? Everything is a WoW clone because WoW invented mmorpgs. Got quests? WoW clone. Got gear? WoW clone. Classes? Dubya-oh-Dubya doppleganger, at your service! If it's not a perma-death sci-fi shooter built with Voxels and zero pve, it's  a WoW clone. Truthfact.

    Bit of a strawman argument here. Can we agree that a WoW clone is a game with quest hub based leveling, "holy trinity" based classes, a defined level cap, instanced dungeons and PVP that is at least partly  instanced and has no impact on the wider world. A very simplistic economy and crafting system and a series of instanced dungeons and raids to keep players busy once they reach level cap?

     

    WoW didn't invent all those mechanics but it combined them all into a financially successful formula and other than Guild Wars 2, it's hard to argue that the other games on the list don't share most or all of those characteristics. (and even GW2 is not as different from WoW as it first might appear).

     

    Agreed, it was a strawman, but the prevalence of the term "WoW clone" has reached ridiculous levels at this point and I admittedly get a little knee-jerky. And yes, WoW did refine and combine all those elements in one game, but it is quite possible for a game to include all of those elements and play far differently than said game. It's all in the implementation. I feel that many people read a list of features and jump to conclusions a bit much. Thanks for the logistical cold water, though. These forums... ;)

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,575Member Uncommon

    Not at all.

    Players passionate about gaming have kickstarter to fund ideas they are interested in.

    The thing is some gamers blame the "suits" for only caring about money. Some of these same gamers then don't risk a small amount of their own money to fund an idea they are interested in. Strange.

    Money does talk, but leaving it in your wallet isn't helping.

    image
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by immodium

    Not at all.

    Players passionate about gaming have kickstarter to fund ideas they are interested in.

    The thing is some gamers blame the "suits" for only caring about money. Some of these same gamers then don't risk a small amount of their own money to fund an idea they are interested in. Strange.

    Money does talk, but leaving it in your wallet isn't helping.

    To be fair, depending on what we are calling "indie", there isn't that great a track record for delivering.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member

    One thing indie titles do is push forward innovation. Even if the game fails, some ideas are really really really good. The developers are usually a little more free to take risks in indie titles whereas a larger company will just follow the trends of what is currently popular. If you take out indie titles, innovation would probably slow down quite a bit in the genre. That's how I feel anyways.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

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