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OMG The Combat

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  • StratagosStratagos Portland, ORPosts: 14Member
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Stratagos
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Stratagos
    Originally posted by drivendawn
    *snip*

    Yes you will have to memorize mechanics in fights but believe me they aren't easy mode, good luck doing things like titan hard mode with a pickup. But hey if you like pure tank and spank games you won't like this.

    Pretty much the opposite of what I was trying to say.  Memorization of fights doesn't bother me, but if that's all there is, and no reacting to things I didn't see coming, then that sounds pretty dull.

    It goes like this, you need to memorize fights because if you react to things as you see them coming  instead of just before they will hit you regardless of where you are on your screen. That is all there is too it.

    The fights are scripted  and the attacks always come  in the same order. If you try to react to things more often than not you will die as many of the attacks that you need to avoid are instakills or near enough.  I can't stress this enough you need to memorize the fights so you can "react" before" the attacks come up.

    Now by react we mean move away, you can actually move out of the way, just before an attack, and then move right back in the danger area see the animation hit you and you get zero damage but you can also avoid an attack be no where near it and get hit as well. 

    Like I said I liked the game while leveling and the story but damn this endgame and the mechanics used in it suck arse. Some people will say it takes skill and strategy. Frankly I don't agree.

     

    I am a big big fan of most of the old FF single players games baring FFXIII and sadly I would have preferred  a DDO style combat to this mess. It's kind of like they tried to do like the Neverwinter game from PW but then messed it up, add in really poopy netcode to acerbate things.

    Now see, this doesn't sound so bad.  It sounds like ex: "Onyxia is about to Deep Breath, everybody get to the sides." Or "Nefarian is about to do a class call, get ready." Or "Anub'Rekhan casts Locust Swarm, tank kites."

    I am not sure how to read this. You said you want to react to things, In this game you can't or you will fail even as a tank. Btw my main was a tank PLD.

     

    It's more like start moving just before the "Onyxia is about to Deep Breath, everybody get to the sides."  or you will not be able to avoid the attack.

    It is not a game where a boss can spam skills in different orders and you use skill, knowledge of the game or gear combinations even to survive, dodge or mitigate an attack by knowing the boss "tells" etc.

    The only thing that matters really is have decent gear for the content and knowing the "script" or order of attacks so to speak cause they never vary.

     

    My wife and I paid 60 buck or so each for the CE edition preorder (we actually got the preorders on sale) and it was worth the cost for the time we played but for a new person I would say try the cheaper 30 buck version first cause there is good chances you will be done after a month or two at most.

     

    If you really want more info on endgame try the official forums and this thread in particular. My self I am back to DDO and enjoying it. Might give ARR another go if they ever fix some of the issues at some point seeing as there should be new content then if not oh well.

    Hmmm, I see.  So there's nothing in "the fight" that would really tell you to "get to the sides," you just have to know that it's time to "get to the sides."  That does sound like a bummer.  Maybe I should just go play World of Warcraft.

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorPosts: 1,112Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Stratagos
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Stratagos
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Stratagos
    Originally posted by drivendawn
    *snip*

    Yes you will have to memorize mechanics in fights but believe me they aren't easy mode, good luck doing things like titan hard mode with a pickup. But hey if you like pure tank and spank games you won't like this.

    Pretty much the opposite of what I was trying to say.  Memorization of fights doesn't bother me, but if that's all there is, and no reacting to things I didn't see coming, then that sounds pretty dull.

    It goes like this, you need to memorize fights because if you react to things as you see them coming  instead of just before they will hit you regardless of where you are on your screen. That is all there is too it.

    The fights are scripted  and the attacks always come  in the same order. If you try to react to things more often than not you will die as many of the attacks that you need to avoid are instakills or near enough.  I can't stress this enough you need to memorize the fights so you can "react" before" the attacks come up.

    Now by react we mean move away, you can actually move out of the way, just before an attack, and then move right back in the danger area see the animation hit you and you get zero damage but you can also avoid an attack be no where near it and get hit as well. 

    Like I said I liked the game while leveling and the story but damn this endgame and the mechanics used in it suck arse. Some people will say it takes skill and strategy. Frankly I don't agree.

     

    I am a big big fan of most of the old FF single players games baring FFXIII and sadly I would have preferred  a DDO style combat to this mess. It's kind of like they tried to do like the Neverwinter game from PW but then messed it up, add in really poopy netcode to acerbate things.

    Now see, this doesn't sound so bad.  It sounds like ex: "Onyxia is about to Deep Breath, everybody get to the sides." Or "Nefarian is about to do a class call, get ready." Or "Anub'Rekhan casts Locust Swarm, tank kites."

    I am not sure how to read this. You said you want to react to things, In this game you can't or you will fail even as a tank. Btw my main was a tank PLD.

     

    It's more like start moving just before the "Onyxia is about to Deep Breath, everybody get to the sides."  or you will not be able to avoid the attack.

    It is not a game where a boss can spam skills in different orders and you use skill, knowledge of the game or gear combinations even to survive, dodge or mitigate an attack by knowing the boss "tells" etc.

    The only thing that matters really is have decent gear for the content and knowing the "script" or order of attacks so to speak cause they never vary.

     

    My wife and I paid 60 buck or so each for the CE edition preorder (we actually got the preorders on sale) and it was worth the cost for the time we played but for a new person I would say try the cheaper 30 buck version first cause there is good chances you will be done after a month or two at most.

     

    If you really want more info on endgame try the official forums and this thread in particular. My self I am back to DDO and enjoying it. Might give ARR another go if they ever fix some of the issues at some point seeing as there should be new content then if not oh well.

    Hmmm, I see.  So there's nothing in "the fight" that would really tell you to "get to the sides," you just have to know that it's time to "get to the sides."  That does sound like a bummer.  Maybe I should just go play World of Warcraft.

    No there is a big red circle that appears and the boss has a skillbar timer thing that shows up near his name but if you wait till that shows up you more often than not are in trouble, the animations don't sync well together.

     

    Like I said if you are strafing to the side say just before the attack pops up (cause you know the script) you can actually jump back right in front even if the boss  cast skillbar is at 90% and wont get hit by his attack evfen though the animation has you standing right in his "fire breath of doom".

     

    Your party mate though that wasn't strafing (but got out before the boss cast skillbar was complete) and isn't in the "fire breath of doom animation" can skill take damage from it even if hes on the other side of the room behind a pillar.

    If it wasn't for this type of combat mechanics I would be in the game like white on rice. I have givin up hope this will be corrected though.

    Heh SE even has this as an "accepted bug" but they don't see to want to fix it. closest remark people got was scroll the camera back.

     

    Other than this the game was fun and gave me a FF feel with the storyline but this endgame shenanigans just broke it for me.

     

    This is just my opinion and such being subjective YMMV .

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  • HansKaosuHansKaosu DønnaPosts: 4Member
    If you think this is slow then i bet you would have rage quite 1.0
  • Solar_ProphetSolar_Prophet Columbus, OHPosts: 875Member Uncommon

    I think it's fine as is. There's definitely a bit more thought when it comes to rotations, and even more so playing a monk (which speeds up considerably).

    Sorry you don't like it. Perhaps the twitch combat from GW2 would suit you better?

    Also, Rift has so-so combat (about the pace of WoW's), but the animations are just so godawful to watch that it almost causes me physical pain. Honestly, the thought of watching my character in Rift fight makes me consider gouging my eyes out.

    FFXIV's animations, while a bit too flashy, are much better and even fun to watch.

    AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!

  • JudgeUKJudgeUK Posts: 847Member Uncommon

    "the animations don't sync well together..."

    Well that's one way of putting it. The defense of the combat system wouldn't be on such weak ground if they did something about the server response delay.

    This is by far the largest topic on the forum, running into hundreds of pages across several different post titles. The "if I don't choose the right skill I can wipe etc" posts have to be taken in the context that even if your actions are correct in line with the animations you can still wipe. The "feature"(???) of getting hit after moving well away from any aoe marking is simply unacceptable in any mmo, never mind one so recently launched.

    Servers in Canada for EU - yep that's close - compared to the moon. But it's not just location as people can suffer this response delay no matter where they are.

    Something is definitely up here, as some EU people have switched to the Japanese servers and say their delay issues have disappeared.

    So the GCD is one thing, but this is intended to work with correct animation timings. If these where correct and you were near the end of a cast, you could finish it knowing you'd still have time to move out of the aoe. At present however you cannot.

    I doubt if this can ever be fixed owing to the way the client server information is handled in this game. So the question is - why have mmo's from years ago solved this issue, yet ffxiv is launched with it?

  • RaquisRaquis hartenbosPosts: 536Member Common

    I told people exactly how the game is and then they said I am trolling.

    the game is just worth a buy don't subscribe the dungens are nice but the mindless missions just to keep you busy got to me in the end I couldn't even finish the game so boring it is .

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorPosts: 1,112Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JudgeUK

    "the animations don't sync well together..."

    *SNIP*

    You will note I had given a link to this very issue, one that I was very active in i might add. Going into too much detail here will just attract really shiny people in tanky armor.  I figured that thread I linked would say much more than we can in one post here ;)

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  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by grimfall
    Originally posted by marz.at.play
    Originally posted by jonesing22
    Originally posted by marz.at.play

    Really? This has got to be the SLOWEST combat I've every experienced in any MMO. 2.5 second global cooldown? I feel like I'm sitting on a dentist chair and getting a root canal, that's how painfully slow this is...and people complained about TSW and RIFT's combat? They both trounce FFXIV. I have to force myself to log in because I feel guilty I spent $30.00 and played so little so far.

    Sorry for the drama. It's just DAMN! Really? Ok please flame on.

    This is how you know where this player has come from. See, for me the combat pace feels finee because I played EQ in 2001 - if you were a melee class you had 1 or 2 abilities - kick, bash, taunt.....other than that you auto attacked every 2.4 seconds if you had a good weapon. 

    World of Warcraft much?

    Actually I never played WOW. I came from GW (7 years) and a slew of other MMO's in between. Most recently been playing AoC.

    There's literally no excuse to not have played WoW.

    Maybe he want a challenge for his braincells instead of killing them off?

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • JudgeUKJudgeUK Posts: 847Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by JudgeUK

    "the animations don't sync well together..."

    *SNIP*

    You will note I had given a link to this very issue, one that I was very active in i might add. Going into too much detail here will just attract really shiny people in tanky armor.  I figured that thread I linked would say much more than we can in one post here ;)

    Thank you and yes, if people follow the link they will see the player responses.

    Unfortunately the one thing that is missing is any response from the company, despite the number of posts.

  • pmcubedpmcubed Portland, ORPosts: 289Member
    2.5 sec GCD is absurd.  I nearly fell asleep while playing my friends guy through a dungeon.
  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ZizouX
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    Originally posted by ZizouX

    GCD is intertwined with encounter design.

     

    On Titan Hardmode, I barely have enough time to use the skills I have.  The GCD was designed with the constant moving anticipated from boss attacks.

     

    I prefer this combat system to Wow, where you're just spamming buttons as soon as they're off cooldown.  I also prefer this over GW2 because in 2, there was no strategy other than everyone avoiding their own red circles.  Some really cool combinations and class design but it wasn't strong enough for me to stay.  

     

    Thre are plenty of people who prefer this combat system over twitchbased (wow) or action based (GW2/Tera).  The market is saturated with games that have a FAST COMBAT system.  you're more than welcome to play those games to your heart's content.

     

    I like FFXIV as is.

     

    It's no different than WoW. It's just slower. Unless you're trying to say you don't have to move out of the fire in WoW. 

    Because Wow's combat has a very fast GCD... there's literally no consequence to using one ability over another, because a second later, you can use the other ability.   you're spamming abilities without any thought or preparation.

     

    In FFXIV, If I make the mistake in my decision on what ability to use, or what skill chain, that has consequences on my actions.  If I use my Maim Combo because I think my threat is ahead, only to realize I was wrong, then the group will pay the consequences... someone will get one shotted.

     

    Think of the 2.5 GCD in conjunction with your 3 hit weapon skills.  you use the wrong one, you have 5-7.5 seconds before you can go back and correct the mistake.

     

    Because the GCD is slower, AND because skills chain, making the incorrect choice has consequences where such consequences do not exist in WoW.  don't get me wrong, WoW did a lot of things right.  The boss designs are fun.  The combat is smooth.  There is no latency and it's reaction based.  however, I no longer enjoy spastically spamming abilities on my keyboard.

     

    I enjoy the combat in FFXIV especially end game, where I am weaving in an ability between the global cooldown.  The slow combat is not slow when you are weaving in other abilities AND you're dodging shit.

     

    I am NOT bored when I do Ifrit, Garuda or Titan.  The last thing I'm thinking is... damn this is boring.  I'm thinking, if I make one mistake i'm dead.

    This is as false a statement that has ever been made on these forums.  Movement and positioning matter just as much in any game design.  Mindless spamming of keys is and never is the preferred and optimal way to play your class or any class whether it be a faster paced CGD game like WoW or an action based combat system like GW2 or Neverwinter.  Just because you can doesn't mean you have to do something.  I think of FFXIV combat as limiting because it reinforces bad players into doing what's optimal instead of giving the player the freedom and choice to play bad if they choose too.

     

    I'll take a faster paced combat MMO any day of the week and twice on Sunday because the action is where the fun is especially considering that 99% of your time is spent in combat it stands to reason that developers should make it as fun as possible.  But then again different stokes for different folks but put in my the "hate FFXIV slow combat column".

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • simsalabim77simsalabim77 Somewhere, CAPosts: 627Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ikkei

    It kinda makes me laugh when people claim that combat is slow because you "need to think" or something. That just isn't true for the seasoned MMO player who knows quite instinctively what to do at any given time, in my humble opinion—your mileage may vary depending on your experience with MMOs and your skill/response time as a human.

    In my case, here's what I observed.

    In FF14 you find yourself often waiting on something. Instant abilities are not really instant, since you can't use them while another animation is ongoing (meaning you usually can't use them halfway through the GCD or even more). Furthermore once you click on an 'instant' ability in FF14, you still have to wait for the animation to happen before that ability's effect is applied.

    This results in frustrating situations like:

    • Enemy starts casting something.
    • *smashing button of instant stun ability* — why the hell doesn't it fire?!
    • *smashing more* —"still not happening… come ooooon"
    • *reason why you wanted to use the ability now moot* — "ooh gosh another interrupt that I just couldn't do"
    • *healer heals you*

    It often doesn't feel like you're in control of your character. I don't like that.

    In the same vein, defensive cooldowns and temporary buffs in general must be used preemptively since there's usually no way you have enough time to use them unless you planned for it. There's no such thing as a "panic button", even if there are "panic skills". That lowers the adrenaline for me, since you find yourself either correctly predicting what's next, or helplessly watching you fail, your character always one step behind what you're thinking.

    Furthermore there's no customisation whatsoever: you level up 2 other classes to level 25 and 35 respectively (which is nothing but a grind of FATEs), on the same character, to pick a 5 additional skills for your main class, but everyone takes the same sub-skills for a given class since there are only so many choices. 

    Overall compared to other recent MMOs, the rotations (DD) and tanking/healing is as basic as it gets. There's one way to do it well and that's usually it (which prompts my earlier saying that there's not much to think about once you know your class well). It's a basic 3-step combo (press 1, 2, 3, rinse and repeat) for most classes. Granted, some have more interesting rotations (Black Mage, the primary caster; Monk, a melee class; Dragoon, another melee class; and Bard, a ranged bow-wielder), but it's nothing particularly better than other games.

    Beyond this intended gameplay, there's the matter of server live-state latency with the client (see this post for a more comprehensive take on the matter). This results in your buffs sometimes not being registered in time, even if they were on your screen (you're always one step behind the server which runs the live-state, unlike most MMO), even bugs where activating several buffs too quickly will result in them going on cooldown but the effect not applying. 

    Which brings us to the "memory game". Since your client is always a bit behind what's really happening in the game (server-side, pretty much all of it), in a way which is therefore aggravated by your internet latency to the server (ping), coupled with a positional check that only happens every .3 seconds (which is quite slow and is also aggravated by your ping, meaning you can easily reach .5s if you don't live close enough to the Canadian datacenter), the only way to clear the hardest encounters, which feature many OHKO (One-Hit Knock-Out) mechanics such as AoEs, is to memorise exactly the boss rotation. Bosses in FF14 usually don't do random stuff, they perform the exact same skills all the time, in the same exact order. This is how people in farm mode kill them quite easily, and actually manage to kill them in the first place. It's a memory game, much more than a reaction-based game, and it's obviously aggravated by the slow GCD.

    If you think about it though, it does form a quite coherent whole, wherein you memorise stuff, then anticipate your own actions. If you happen to like that, it's arguable that the flow is nicely crafted. However that means little improvisation on your part, very generic encounters once you know them, since it's always more of the exact same.

    The grind therefore gets quite tedious, as far as I'm concerned. Each boss, each dungeon, each raid is always exactly the same once you've mastered it. Down to trash mobs, you just know that this mob is going to do 'cone AoE', then hit twice, then 'cone AoE' again, and so on for each single mob and boss in most of the game. I've observed variations, sometimes, in lower level dungeons, but it's far from being an engaging enemy AI to me. Even WoW, which is a reference but certainly not a world of surprises, is much more dynamic and able to throw you off your game, in my personal experience (MoP). This especially shows in late-game encounters, where farming raids in WoW was fun for a much longer time than in FF14, if only because things get less predictable. I've cleared up to Coil T2, tried on T4, and thus can't really comment on T5 (the 4th and last raid boss of the game so far) since I haven't tried it before I left.

    Initially when I tried this game in beta, I really enjoyed combat (level was limited to 20). I found it dynamic enough even with the slow GCD, and animations/effects are really beautiful (that's FF for you). But it gets old once you try to dig into a more complex perspective—or rather lack thereof. As time went by into release, reaching max level, I really found it less and less interesting.

    Along with their network model, it's a reason why I left the game and don't really plan on going back, unless they drastically improve the responsiveness (don't know how unless they pour millions more into their code/architecture and take many months to achieve it), and revamp the class design to allow for more combat variety with each class, and more customisation.

    It looks like I'm trashing the game but most of this is factual, I've tried to say when it was opinion. Admittedly, some players are enjoying combat in this game, but given the sheer fandom that surrounds Final Fantasy, I can't help but wonder how many of these players do actually really like this game's mechanics (should they appear in another game not called FF and without the lore, music and graphics of that franchise). As in, 'bias of confirmation', "It's FF thus it's great" (especially those who stuck with 1.0 even though it was universally admitted that it was just an awfully designed game). I do find puzzling the level of white-knight-ing when one tries to criticise this game; there's something just off about that. Compared to more obscure IPs, I mean.

    To conclude, please don't take this as "the truth", because it's not, it's just my take—and please don't attack me for it. I would still recommend buying this game if you like FF and want to spend a month leveling and grinding some endgame stuff ($30 isn't that much for that, arguably). However, I'd cautious you against imagining that you're going to want to stick with it for a long time, because it might just not be true. Granted also, with more patches, and as I said, a good overhaul of some lacking designs and especially their netcode (which won't bother you much until you reach endgame), it could become a very good game. Right now combat and class design are not worth more than 5/10 for me however, compared to other MMOs. Probably less, actually. 

     

    This is an excellent post. You've pretty much nailed it. 

  • SephrinxSephrinx Astoria, ORPosts: 73Member
    I couldn't agree more.

    imageimageimageimage

  • drivendawndrivendawn montgomery, ALPosts: 1,241Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    Originally posted by Ikkei

    It kinda makes me laugh when people claim that combat is slow because you "need to think" or something. That just isn't true for the seasoned MMO player who knows quite instinctively what to do at any given time, in my humble opinion—your mileage may vary depending on your experience with MMOs and your skill/response time as a human.

    In my case, here's what I observed.

    In FF14 you find yourself often waiting on something. Instant abilities are not really instant, since you can't use them while another animation is ongoing (meaning you usually can't use them halfway through the GCD or even more). Furthermore once you click on an 'instant' ability in FF14, you still have to wait for the animation to happen before that ability's effect is applied.

    This results in frustrating situations like:

    • Enemy starts casting something.
    • *smashing button of instant stun ability* — why the hell doesn't it fire?!
    • *smashing more* —"still not happening… come ooooon"
    • *reason why you wanted to use the ability now moot* — "ooh gosh another interrupt that I just couldn't do"
    • *healer heals you*

    It often doesn't feel like you're in control of your character. I don't like that.

    In the same vein, defensive cooldowns and temporary buffs in general must be used preemptively since there's usually no way you have enough time to use them unless you planned for it. There's no such thing as a "panic button", even if there are "panic skills". That lowers the adrenaline for me, since you find yourself either correctly predicting what's next, or helplessly watching you fail, your character always one step behind what you're thinking.

    Furthermore there's no customisation whatsoever: you level up 2 other classes to level 25 and 35 respectively (which is nothing but a grind of FATEs), on the same character, to pick a 5 additional skills for your main class, but everyone takes the same sub-skills for a given class since there are only so many choices. 

    Overall compared to other recent MMOs, the rotations (DD) and tanking/healing is as basic as it gets. There's one way to do it well and that's usually it (which prompts my earlier saying that there's not much to think about once you know your class well). It's a basic 3-step combo (press 1, 2, 3, rinse and repeat) for most classes. Granted, some have more interesting rotations (Black Mage, the primary caster; Monk, a melee class; Dragoon, another melee class; and Bard, a ranged bow-wielder), but it's nothing particularly better than other games.

    Beyond this intended gameplay, there's the matter of server live-state latency with the client (see this post for a more comprehensive take on the matter). This results in your buffs sometimes not being registered in time, even if they were on your screen (you're always one step behind the server which runs the live-state, unlike most MMO), even bugs where activating several buffs too quickly will result in them going on cooldown but the effect not applying. 

    Which brings us to the "memory game". Since your client is always a bit behind what's really happening in the game (server-side, pretty much all of it), in a way which is therefore aggravated by your internet latency to the server (ping), coupled with a positional check that only happens every .3 seconds (which is quite slow and is also aggravated by your ping, meaning you can easily reach .5s if you don't live close enough to the Canadian datacenter), the only way to clear the hardest encounters, which feature many OHKO (One-Hit Knock-Out) mechanics such as AoEs, is to memorise exactly the boss rotation. Bosses in FF14 usually don't do random stuff, they perform the exact same skills all the time, in the same exact order. This is how people in farm mode kill them quite easily, and actually manage to kill them in the first place. It's a memory game, much more than a reaction-based game, and it's obviously aggravated by the slow GCD.

    If you think about it though, it does form a quite coherent whole, wherein you memorise stuff, then anticipate your own actions. If you happen to like that, it's arguable that the flow is nicely crafted. However that means little improvisation on your part, very generic encounters once you know them, since it's always more of the exact same.

    The grind therefore gets quite tedious, as far as I'm concerned. Each boss, each dungeon, each raid is always exactly the same once you've mastered it. Down to trash mobs, you just know that this mob is going to do 'cone AoE', then hit twice, then 'cone AoE' again, and so on for each single mob and boss in most of the game. I've observed variations, sometimes, in lower level dungeons, but it's far from being an engaging enemy AI to me. Even WoW, which is a reference but certainly not a world of surprises, is much more dynamic and able to throw you off your game, in my personal experience (MoP). This especially shows in late-game encounters, where farming raids in WoW was fun for a much longer time than in FF14, if only because things get less predictable. I've cleared up to Coil T2, tried on T4, and thus can't really comment on T5 (the 4th and last raid boss of the game so far) since I haven't tried it before I left.

    Initially when I tried this game in beta, I really enjoyed combat (level was limited to 20). I found it dynamic enough even with the slow GCD, and animations/effects are really beautiful (that's FF for you). But it gets old once you try to dig into a more complex perspective—or rather lack thereof. As time went by into release, reaching max level, I really found it less and less interesting.

    Along with their network model, it's a reason why I left the game and don't really plan on going back, unless they drastically improve the responsiveness (don't know how unless they pour millions more into their code/architecture and take many months to achieve it), and revamp the class design to allow for more combat variety with each class, and more customisation.

    It looks like I'm trashing the game but most of this is factual, I've tried to say when it was opinion. Admittedly, some players are enjoying combat in this game, but given the sheer fandom that surrounds Final Fantasy, I can't help but wonder how many of these players do actually really like this game's mechanics (should they appear in another game not called FF and without the lore, music and graphics of that franchise). As in, 'bias of confirmation', "It's FF thus it's great" (especially those who stuck with 1.0 even though it was universally admitted that it was just an awfully designed game). I do find puzzling the level of white-knight-ing when one tries to criticise this game; there's something just off about that. Compared to more obscure IPs, I mean.

    To conclude, please don't take this as "the truth", because it's not, it's just my take—and please don't attack me for it. I would still recommend buying this game if you like FF and want to spend a month leveling and grinding some endgame stuff ($30 isn't that much for that, arguably). However, I'd cautious you against imagining that you're going to want to stick with it for a long time, because it might just not be true. Granted also, with more patches, and as I said, a good overhaul of some lacking designs and especially their netcode (which won't bother you much until you reach endgame), it could become a very good game. Right now combat and class design are not worth more than 5/10 for me however, compared to other MMOs. Probably less, actually. 

     

    This is an excellent post. You've pretty much nailed it. 

    Don't worry I don't and your right it's not.

  • SephrinxSephrinx Astoria, ORPosts: 73Member

    When does "Having less choices" equate to "more skill" or "more strategic?" .... ????

     

    Wouldn't it be the other way around? With a 2.5 second cooldown, you can use 24 skills in this time. With a 1.5 second cooldown, you can use 40. Nearly twice as many. Now, take the number of skills into account. 

     

    Lets say you have 9 skills to use, of the 24 skill uses available, you can use each one 2.5 times roughly. If you have 24 skills, which is a decent amount of skills for an mmo, you can use each one once, with the 2.5 second GCD. This explains itself, you have less skills, the higher chance to use the right skill, and the less impact it will have.

    If you were to have the 1.5 second GCD, you could use each skill 4.4 times, and 1.8 times, respectively. Just because there is less time to use a skill, does not mean it's more skillfull.

     

    If anything, it makes the game easier, as it forces you to use certain skills in certain ways, rather than having the ability to not use the correct skill. It almost funnels your keypresses into making the 'right' choice.

    imageimageimageimage

  • cyclonite51cyclonite51 Sacramento, CAPosts: 33Member
    Originally posted by Sephrinx

    When does "Having less choices" equate to "more skill" or "more strategic?" .... ????

     

    Wouldn't it be the other way around? With a 2.5 second cooldown, you can use 24 skills in this time. With a 1.5 second cooldown, you can use 40. Nearly twice as many. Now, take the number of skills into account. 

     

    Lets say you have 9 skills to use, of the 24 skill uses available, you can use each one 2.5 times roughly. If you have 24 skills, which is a decent amount of skills for an mmo, you can use each one once, with the 2.5 second GCD. This explains itself, you have less skills, the higher chance to use the right skill, and the less impact it will have.

    If you were to have the 1.5 second GCD, you could use each skill 4.4 times, and 1.8 times, respectively. Just because there is less time to use a skill, does not mean it's more skillfull.

     

    If anything, it makes the game easier, as it forces you to use certain skills in certain ways, rather than having the ability to not use the correct skill. It almost funnels your keypresses into making the 'right' choice.

     

    This. The lower the GCD, the higher the skill ceiling, it forces you to make quicker decisions. Spamming only a couple skills isn't the most effective, those who claim that have no clue how to maximize your class potential.

    The reason for the 2.5 GCD is simple, it was built first for a console with the controller in mind. Lowering the GCD allows you to keep up with the clumsy controller scheme. It is an unfortunate truth but games built for the console first are going to be limited in someway.

  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Niagara Falls, NYPosts: 3,437Member Uncommon
    It's more fun in groups. I'm in a painful spot right now because I enjoy healing but I want to heal as a scholar. Which requires me to be level 30 and I'm struggling to get there playing solo or queuing for half hour as dps lol. Sucks because technically there is no reason I can't heal as an Arcanist other than they won't let me queue as a healer.

    image
  • Mr.ZerooneMr.Zeroone BialystokPosts: 34Member
    Originally posted by Ikkei

    It kinda makes me laugh when people claim that combat is slow because you "need to think" or something. That just isn't true for the seasoned MMO player who knows quite instinctively what to do at any given time, in my humble opinion—your mileage may vary depending on your experience with MMOs and your skill/response time as a human.

    (...)

    Which brings us to the "memory game".

    (...)

    Very, very great post, Ikkei. I've felt in the same way. Just remember and repeat X times to achive what you want <- this is totally nonsense. I left the game without even completed the story. My account is still active, but I'm not intend to log in anymore. I like FF:ARR at the very beginning, but when I recognized how schematic this game is, I've stopped playing and quit.

  • drivendawndrivendawn montgomery, ALPosts: 1,241Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mr.Zeroone
    Originally posted by Ikkei

    It kinda makes me laugh when people claim that combat is slow because you "need to think" or something. That just isn't true for the seasoned MMO player who knows quite instinctively what to do at any given time, in my humble opinion—your mileage may vary depending on your experience with MMOs and your skill/response time as a human.

    (...)

    Which brings us to the "memory game".

    (...)

    Very, very great post, Ikkei. I've felt in the same way. Just remember and repeat X times to achive what you want <- this is totally nonsense. I left the game without even completed the story. My account is still active, but I'm not intend to log in anymore. I like FF:ARR at the very beginning, but when I recognized how schematic this game is, I've stopped playing and quit.

    Well thats to bad your missing out on a great game imo. It's true you have to learn patterns to some boss fights but certain ones are more erratic like the relic chimera, it will keep you on your toes. Also all boss's have moves that will randomly appear not just the memorization moves, and on top of this sometimes you have to keep your positional combos going as well.  Some are saying in this thread that there is no challenge to the game. If that were the case you should be able to beat most anything in a PUG and good luck with that. Also it's not like other games don't do similar things even XI and EQ had mechanics you had to look for at certain times, just less with more tank and spank.

  • simsalabim77simsalabim77 Somewhere, CAPosts: 627Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by drivendawn
    Originally posted by Mr.Zeroone
    Originally posted by Ikkei

    It kinda makes me laugh when people claim that combat is slow because you "need to think" or something. That just isn't true for the seasoned MMO player who knows quite instinctively what to do at any given time, in my humble opinion—your mileage may vary depending on your experience with MMOs and your skill/response time as a human.

    (...)

    Which brings us to the "memory game".

    (...)

    Very, very great post, Ikkei. I've felt in the same way. Just remember and repeat X times to achive what you want <- this is totally nonsense. I left the game without even completed the story. My account is still active, but I'm not intend to log in anymore. I like FF:ARR at the very beginning, but when I recognized how schematic this game is, I've stopped playing and quit.

    Well thats to bad your missing out on a great game imo. It's true you have to learn patterns to some boss fights but certain ones are more erratic like the relic chimera, it will keep you on your toes. Also all boss's have moves that will randomly appear not just the memorization moves, and on top of this sometimes you have to keep your positional combos going as well.  Some are saying in this thread that there is no challenge to the game. If that were the case you should be able to beat most anything in a PUG and good luck with that. Also it's not like other games don't do similar things even XI and EQ had mechanics you had to look for at certain times, just less with more tank and spank.

     

    People regularly PUG BC. Go to Costa del Sol or Mor Dhona and look at all the shout groups. Every encounter in the game has been PUG'd. It's not the easiest content to do with strangers because some of it is very unforgiving, but it can be done. It's just like any other game... when you PUG, you roll the dice. If you're lucky, you'll get good players and go clear content. If you're not lucky, and end up with a bunch of terrible players, and it's going to be an awful experience. 

     

    Every PVE encounter in the game has to do with a pattern. After you do the fight a few times, you know exactly what to expect and when to expect it. That's true for basically any MMO though. It's just a bit more pronounced and noticeable in XIV because if you are reactionary instead of proactive, it will get you one shot in some instances.  

     

    If you can get passed the less than stellar combat, the game isn't bad. It's really not an amazing MMO compared to other MMO's of this generation (unless you drool rainbows about anything relating to Final Fantasy.) It is average, which usually isn't something to celebrate, but considering this game's history, in this case it is something to celebrate. 

  • drivendawndrivendawn montgomery, ALPosts: 1,241Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    Originally posted by drivendawn
    Originally posted by Mr.Zeroone
    Originally posted by Ikkei

    It kinda makes me laugh when people claim that combat is slow because you "need to think" or something. That just isn't true for the seasoned MMO player who knows quite instinctively what to do at any given time, in my humble opinion—your mileage may vary depending on your experience with MMOs and your skill/response time as a human.

    (...)

    Which brings us to the "memory game".

    (...)

    Very, very great post, Ikkei. I've felt in the same way. Just remember and repeat X times to achive what you want <- this is totally nonsense. I left the game without even completed the story. My account is still active, but I'm not intend to log in anymore. I like FF:ARR at the very beginning, but when I recognized how schematic this game is, I've stopped playing and quit.

    Well thats to bad your missing out on a great game imo. It's true you have to learn patterns to some boss fights but certain ones are more erratic like the relic chimera, it will keep you on your toes. Also all boss's have moves that will randomly appear not just the memorization moves, and on top of this sometimes you have to keep your positional combos going as well.  Some are saying in this thread that there is no challenge to the game. If that were the case you should be able to beat most anything in a PUG and good luck with that. Also it's not like other games don't do similar things even XI and EQ had mechanics you had to look for at certain times, just less with more tank and spank.

     

    People regularly PUG BC. Go to Costa del Sol or Mor Dhona and look at all the shout groups. Every encounter in the game has been PUG'd. It's not the easiest content to do with strangers because some of it is very unforgiving, but it can be done. It's just like any other game... when you PUG, you roll the dice. If you're lucky, you'll get good players and go clear content. If you're not lucky, and end up with a bunch of terrible players, and it's going to be an awful experience. 

     

    Every PVE encounter in the game has to do with a pattern. After you do the fight a few times, you know exactly what to expect and when to expect it. That's true for basically any MMO though. It's just a bit more pronounced and noticeable in XIV because if you are reactionary instead of proactive, it will get you one shot in some instances.  

     

    If you can get passed the less than stellar combat, the game isn't bad. It's really not an amazing MMO compared to other MMO's of this generation (unless you drool rainbows about anything relating to Final Fantasy.) It is average, which usually isn't something to celebrate, but considering this game's history, in this case it is something to celebrate. 

    Of course you can pug but as you said if your lucky enough to get good players that know the content. Thats what I was saying some people act like there is no challenge when most of them looked up a video to see what to do. They didn't even figure out how to do it them selves in the first place others did and they act like they breezed through it without any help. Cuz you know it was just that easy. Not saying your saying this but others are.

    To the second underlined, I agree completely and if you look at up coming games you will see many red cirlces, cones, and so on. Everquest next does and Wildstar as well. I mean if you take them away you may not even know when it's under you.

    To the third I think the combat is fine the way it is thats just my opinion of course. Personally I haven't played an amazing MMO since my first one Ashrons call and I have found that its just nostalgia. I think XIV is a little better than what has come out in recent years, mainly because of the all classes on one character thing and the crafting and gathering is above what other games have been lately.

  • simsalabim77simsalabim77 Somewhere, CAPosts: 627Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by drivendawn
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    Originally posted by drivendawn
    Originally posted by Mr.Zeroone
    Originally posted by Ikkei

    It kinda makes me laugh when people claim that combat is slow because you "need to think" or something. That just isn't true for the seasoned MMO player who knows quite instinctively what to do at any given time, in my humble opinion—your mileage may vary depending on your experience with MMOs and your skill/response time as a human.

    (...)

    Which brings us to the "memory game".

    (...)

    Very, very great post, Ikkei. I've felt in the same way. Just remember and repeat X times to achive what you want <- this is totally nonsense. I left the game without even completed the story. My account is still active, but I'm not intend to log in anymore. I like FF:ARR at the very beginning, but when I recognized how schematic this game is, I've stopped playing and quit.

    Well thats to bad your missing out on a great game imo. It's true you have to learn patterns to some boss fights but certain ones are more erratic like the relic chimera, it will keep you on your toes. Also all boss's have moves that will randomly appear not just the memorization moves, and on top of this sometimes you have to keep your positional combos going as well.  Some are saying in this thread that there is no challenge to the game. If that were the case you should be able to beat most anything in a PUG and good luck with that. Also it's not like other games don't do similar things even XI and EQ had mechanics you had to look for at certain times, just less with more tank and spank.

     

    People regularly PUG BC. Go to Costa del Sol or Mor Dhona and look at all the shout groups. Every encounter in the game has been PUG'd. It's not the easiest content to do with strangers because some of it is very unforgiving, but it can be done. It's just like any other game... when you PUG, you roll the dice. If you're lucky, you'll get good players and go clear content. If you're not lucky, and end up with a bunch of terrible players, and it's going to be an awful experience. 

     

    Every PVE encounter in the game has to do with a pattern. After you do the fight a few times, you know exactly what to expect and when to expect it. That's true for basically any MMO though. It's just a bit more pronounced and noticeable in XIV because if you are reactionary instead of proactive, it will get you one shot in some instances.  

     

    If you can get passed the less than stellar combat, the game isn't bad. It's really not an amazing MMO compared to other MMO's of this generation (unless you drool rainbows about anything relating to Final Fantasy.) It is average, which usually isn't something to celebrate, but considering this game's history, in this case it is something to celebrate. 

    Of course you can pug but as you said if your lucky enough to get good players that know the content. Thats what I was saying some people act like there is no challenge when most of them looked up a video to see what to do. They didn't even figure out how to do it them selves in the first place others did and they act like they breezed through it without any help. Cuz you know it was just that easy. Not saying your saying this but others are.

    To the second underlined, I agree completely and if you look at up coming games you will see many red cirlces, cones, and so on. Everquest next does and Wildstar as well. I mean if you take them away you may not even know when it's under you.

    To the third I think the combat is fine the way it is thats just my opinion of course. Personally I haven't played an amazing MMO since my first one Ashrons call and I have found that its just nostalgia. I think XIV is a little better than what has come out in recent years, mainly because of the all classes on one character thing and the crafting and gathering is above what other games have been lately.

     

    The only reason BC was so difficult was because we went into it wearing gear that was an entire tier behind. We were meant to run BC with CT/Myth gear (ilvl80+) and instead we ran it in Philo/Myth gear (ilvl 70+) Being undergeared for progression is normal, but this was a different situation. I'm not saying the game is a total breeze, but I haven't done anything yet that has taken 100s of pulls and endless hours of wiping. Also, saying that there's six encounters (T1-5 & arguably Titan HM) in the game that are difficult doesn't make it a challenging game when everything else is piss easy.

     

    The second boss in Aurum Vale has no AOE indicators and has two abilities that will one shot a fully geared tank. Tanking it the first time was the most fun I've had tanking so far. I think the red circles everywhere are unnecessary, and it would make things initially more interesting/fun if they were gone. Even WoW doesn't have AOE indicators in most cases, and apparently that's the easiest MMO to ever exist. 

     

    We'll have to agree to disagree on XIV being the best MMO in the last few years lol. The crafting and gathering has a lot more depth to it than usual, but my god is it boring. I find crafting to be very nearly useless minus making melded accessories which is insanely expensive and making spiritbond fodder.

    It also annoys me that the mats you need for the high ilvl gear comes from running instances. You basically end up selling gear to other crafters as the vast majority of PVE'ers are going to wear Alagan/Myth gear and forget about spending millions of gil on a single quad-melded accessory. 

    I guess crafting makes great leveling gear if you want to invest in it, but let's be realistic for a moment. Leveling in this game is about as easy/fast as it gets even if you play very casually and the gear from leveling instances is very nearly better anyways. It could be argued that it makes BiS entry level raid gear, but again, it comes at a massive cost per piece so the majority of PVE'ers are going to ignore it when they can grind a set for free that is passable for raiding.

  • drivendawndrivendawn montgomery, ALPosts: 1,241Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    Originally posted by drivendawn
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    Originally posted by drivendawn
    Originally posted by Mr.Zeroone
    Originally posted by Ikkei

    It kinda makes me laugh when people claim that combat is slow because you "need to think" or something. That just isn't true for the seasoned MMO player who knows quite instinctively what to do at any given time, in my humble opinion—your mileage may vary depending on your experience with MMOs and your skill/response time as a human.

    (...)

    Which brings us to the "memory game".

    (...)

    Very, very great post, Ikkei. I've felt in the same way. Just remember and repeat X times to achive what you want <- this is totally nonsense. I left the game without even completed the story. My account is still active, but I'm not intend to log in anymore. I like FF:ARR at the very beginning, but when I recognized how schematic this game is, I've stopped playing and quit.

    Well thats to bad your missing out on a great game imo. It's true you have to learn patterns to some boss fights but certain ones are more erratic like the relic chimera, it will keep you on your toes. Also all boss's have moves that will randomly appear not just the memorization moves, and on top of this sometimes you have to keep your positional combos going as well.  Some are saying in this thread that there is no challenge to the game. If that were the case you should be able to beat most anything in a PUG and good luck with that. Also it's not like other games don't do similar things even XI and EQ had mechanics you had to look for at certain times, just less with more tank and spank.

     

    People regularly PUG BC. Go to Costa del Sol or Mor Dhona and look at all the shout groups. Every encounter in the game has been PUG'd. It's not the easiest content to do with strangers because some of it is very unforgiving, but it can be done. It's just like any other game... when you PUG, you roll the dice. If you're lucky, you'll get good players and go clear content. If you're not lucky, and end up with a bunch of terrible players, and it's going to be an awful experience. 

     

    Every PVE encounter in the game has to do with a pattern. After you do the fight a few times, you know exactly what to expect and when to expect it. That's true for basically any MMO though. It's just a bit more pronounced and noticeable in XIV because if you are reactionary instead of proactive, it will get you one shot in some instances.  

     

    If you can get passed the less than stellar combat, the game isn't bad. It's really not an amazing MMO compared to other MMO's of this generation (unless you drool rainbows about anything relating to Final Fantasy.) It is average, which usually isn't something to celebrate, but considering this game's history, in this case it is something to celebrate. 

    Of course you can pug but as you said if your lucky enough to get good players that know the content. Thats what I was saying some people act like there is no challenge when most of them looked up a video to see what to do. They didn't even figure out how to do it them selves in the first place others did and they act like they breezed through it without any help. Cuz you know it was just that easy. Not saying your saying this but others are.

    To the second underlined, I agree completely and if you look at up coming games you will see many red cirlces, cones, and so on. Everquest next does and Wildstar as well. I mean if you take them away you may not even know when it's under you.

    To the third I think the combat is fine the way it is thats just my opinion of course. Personally I haven't played an amazing MMO since my first one Ashrons call and I have found that its just nostalgia. I think XIV is a little better than what has come out in recent years, mainly because of the all classes on one character thing and the crafting and gathering is above what other games have been lately.

     

    The only reason BC was so difficult was because we went into it wearing gear that was an entire tier behind. We were meant to run BC with CT/Myth gear (ilvl80+) and instead we ran it in Philo/Myth gear (ilvl 70+) Being undergeared for progression is normal, but this was a different situation. I'm not saying the game is a total breeze, but I haven't done anything yet that has taken 100s of pulls and endless hours of wiping. Also, saying that there's six encounters (T1-5 & arguably Titan HM) in the game that are difficult doesn't make it a challenging game when everything else is piss easy.

     

    The second boss in Aurum Vale has no AOE indicators and has two abilities that will one shot a fully geared tank. Tanking it the first time was the most fun I've had tanking so far. I think the red circles everywhere are unnecessary, and it would make things initially more interesting/fun if they were gone. Even WoW doesn't have AOE indicators in most cases, and apparently that's the easiest MMO to ever exist. 

     

    We'll have to agree to disagree on XIV being the best MMO in the last few years lol. The crafting and gathering has a lot more depth to it than usual, but my god is it boring. I find crafting to be very nearly useless minus making melded accessories which is insanely expensive and making spiritbond fodder.

    It also annoys me that the mats you need for the high ilvl gear comes from running instances. You basically end up selling gear to other crafters as the vast majority of PVE'ers are going to wear Alagan/Myth gear and forget about spending millions of gil on a single quad-melded accessory. 

    I guess crafting makes great leveling gear if you want to invest in it, but let's be realistic for a moment. Leveling in this game is about as easy/fast as it gets even if you play very casually and the gear from leveling instances is very nearly better anyways. It could be argued that it makes BiS entry level raid gear, but again, it comes at a massive cost per piece so the majority of PVE'ers are going to ignore it when they can grind a set for free that is passable for raiding.

    Well if you want some of these encounters to be more challenging get a group together and don't watch any video's for the dungeons you run. I and some free company members did this for AK, Sunken temple and many other dungeons and while it wasn't hours of wiping it was a lot more challenging.

    Yes we will indeed disagree lol. I sell all sorts of gear just fine of all lvl types and its the same for others in my guild. Also with housing comes furnishings witch will make crafting more viable and more gil.  I agree with the underlined and hoping that this will get better in 2.1 with treasure hunting being added. From my understanding rare mats will drop by doing this content and may help this problem some.

    Well we both see the game differently and I'm sure we could go back and forth for days with opinions so I'll just wish you good luck on finding a MMO you can call home. 

     

  • silverreignsilverreign Whitehouse, TXPosts: 401Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Stratagos
    Originally posted by drivendawn Originally posted by Stratagos Originally posted by drivendawn Originally posted by Stratagos Originally posted by Ikkei It kinda makes me laugh when people claim that combat is slow because you "need to think" or something. That just isn't true for the seasoned MMO player who knows quite instinctively what to do at any given time, in my humble opinion—your mileage may vary depending on your experience with MMOs and your skill/response time as a human. In my case, here's what I observed. In FF14 you find yourself often waiting on something. Instant abilities are not really instant, since you can't use them while another animation is ongoing (meaning you usually can't use them halfway through the GCD or even more). Furthermore once you click on an 'instant' ability in FF14, you still have to wait for the animation to happen before that ability's effect is applied. This results in frustrating situations like: Enemy starts casting something. *smashing button of instant stun ability* — why the hell doesn't it fire?! *smashing more* —"still not happening… come ooooon" *reason why you wanted to use the ability now moot* — "ooh gosh another interrupt that I just couldn't do" *healer heals you* It often doesn't feel like you're in control of your character. I don't like that. In the same vein, defensive cooldowns and temporary buffs in general must be used preemptively since there's usually no way you have enough time to use them unless you planned for it. There's no such thing as a "panic button", even if there are "panic skills". That lowers the adrenaline for me, since you find yourself either correctly predicting what's next, or helplessly watching you fail, your character always one step behind what you're thinking. Furthermore there's no customisation whatsoever: you level up 2 other classes to level 25 and 35 respectively (which is nothing but a grind of FATEs), on the same character, to pick a 5 additional skills for your main class, but everyone takes the same sub-skills for a given class since there are only so many choices.  Overall compared to other recent MMOs, the rotations (DD) and tanking/healing is as basic as it gets. There's one way to do it well and that's usually it (which prompts my earlier saying that there's not much to think about once you know your class well). It's a basic 3-step combo (press 1, 2, 3, rinse and repeat) for most classes. Granted, some have more interesting rotations (Black Mage, the primary caster; Monk, a melee class; Dragoon, another melee class; and Bard, a ranged bow-wielder), but it's nothing particularly better than other games. Beyond this intended gameplay, there's the matter of server live-state latency with the client (see this post for a more comprehensive take on the matter). This results in your buffs sometimes not being registered in time, even if they were on your screen (you're always one step behind the server which runs the live-state, unlike most MMO), even bugs where activating several buffs too quickly will result in them going on cooldown but the effect not applying.  Which brings us to the "memory game". Since your client is always a bit behind what's really happening in the game (server-side, pretty much all of it), in a way which is therefore aggravated by your internet latency to the server (ping), coupled with a positional check that only happens every .3 seconds (which is quite slow and is also aggravated by your ping, meaning you can easily reach .5s if you don't live close enough to the Canadian datacenter), the only way to clear the hardest encounters, which feature many OHKO (One-Hit Knock-Out) mechanics such as AoEs, is to memorise exactly the boss rotation. Bosses in FF14 usually don't do random stuff, they perform the exact same skills all the time, in the same exact order. This is how people in farm mode kill them quite easily, and actually manage to kill them in the first place. It's a memory game, much more than a reaction-based game, and it's obviously aggravated by the slow GCD. If you think about it though, it does form a quite coherent whole, wherein you memorise stuff, then anticipate your own actions. If you happen to like that, it's arguable that the flow is nicely crafted. However that means little improvisation on your part, very generic encounters once you know them, since it's always more of the exact same. The grind therefore gets quite tedious, as far as I'm concerned. Each boss, each dungeon, each raid is always exactly the same once you've mastered it. Down to trash mobs, you just know that this mob is going to do 'cone AoE', then hit twice, then 'cone AoE' again, and so on for each single mob and boss in most of the game. I've observed variations, sometimes, in lower level dungeons, but it's far from being an engaging enemy AI to me. Even WoW, which is a reference but certainly not a world of surprises, is much more dynamic and able to throw you off your game, in my personal experience (MoP). This especially shows in late-game encounters, where farming raids in WoW was fun for a much longer time than in FF14, if only because things get less predictable. I've cleared up to Coil T2, tried on T4, and thus can't really comment on T5 (the 4th and last raid boss of the game so far) since I haven't tried it before I left. Initially when I tried this game in beta, I really enjoyed combat (level was limited to 20). I found it dynamic enough even with the slow GCD, and animations/effects are really beautiful (that's FF for you). But it gets old once you try to dig into a more complex perspective—or rather lack thereof. As time went by into release, reaching max level, I really found it less and less interesting. Along with their network model, it's a reason why I left the game and don't really plan on going back, unless they drastically improve the responsiveness (don't know how unless they pour millions more into their code/architecture and take many months to achieve it), and revamp the class design to allow for more combat variety with each class, and more customisation. It looks like I'm trashing the game but most of this is factual, I've tried to say when it was opinion. Admittedly, some players are enjoying combat in this game, but given the sheer fandom that surrounds Final Fantasy, I can't help but wonder how many of these players do actually really like this game's mechanics (should they appear in another game not called FF and without the lore, music and graphics of that franchise). As in, 'bias of confirmation', "It's FF thus it's great" (especially those who stuck with 1.0 even though it was universally admitted that it was just an awfully designed game). I do find puzzling the level of white-knight-ing when one tries to criticise this game; there's something just off about that. Compared to more obscure IPs, I mean. To conclude, please don't take this as "the truth", because it's not, it's just my take—and please don't attack me for it. I would still recommend buying this game if you like FF and want to spend a month leveling and grinding some endgame stuff ($30 isn't that much for that, arguably). However, I'd cautious you against imagining that you're going to want to stick with it for a long time, because it might just not be true. Granted also, with more patches, and as I said, a good overhaul of some lacking designs and especially their netcode (which won't bother you much until you reach endgame), it could become a very good game. Right now combat and class design are not worth more than 5/10 for me however, compared to other MMOs. Probably less, actually. 
    Seriously thinking about buying FF14:ARR, but this post is also seriously making me reconsider.
    I would suggest finding out for yourself.
    Too expensive to find out I don't like the game.  The speed of the combat sounds fine, it's the endgame mechanics of memorizing fights, rather than reacting to situations, that is keeping me from diving in.
    Yes you will have to memorize mechanics in fights but believe me they aren't easy mode, good luck doing things like titan hard mode with a pickup. But hey if you like pure tank and spank games you won't like this.
    Pretty much the opposite of what I was trying to say.  Memorization of fights doesn't bother me, but if that's all there is, and no reacting to things I didn't see coming, then that sounds pretty dull.

    its amazing how people r saying this but thats exactly what mods do to games. get DBM for wow and u know whats coming before it does. FF is a great game that isnt tainted by the overuse of mods to completely change the game. personally i quit wow because u HAD to have this mod and that to group. do it without any mods. thats the type of challenge i like. FF FTW

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  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Somewhere, NCPosts: 1,582Member Uncommon
    I really hate these hybrid combat systems. Either give me something like GW2, or give me a REAL turn based combat system (see Wizard101 and Wakfu for good examples of this). These in-between systems are just boring. WoW's works because there are so many abilities that are off the already low GCD that it plays more like an action combat system than a GCD system.

    <3

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