One guy builds a computer specifically for an MMO and keeps his hardware updated. He spends money on MMOs and considers playing MMOs as a hobby. He has invested time and money. He has a sense of attachment to his character and wants to play it to its full potential.
Another guy owns a pre-built computer that he bought at Wal-mart eight years ago and never upgraded it because it "does the job". He casually hops from MMO to MMO every few weeks to play free content and considers playing MMOs are entertainment (like watching tv and movies). He doesn't really care about his character because he'll uninstall the game in a few weeks anyways because he HAS to find another MMO to play do to limitations set by F2P.
When discussing MMOs of the past and the direction MMOs should be heading, which player has more credibility?
Neither.
You haven't stated the qualifications of the people in reference to the subject.
Subject is mmo's of the past and the direction MMO's should be heading.
Person A's knowledge of past MMO's = unknown. Likely he knows a lot about one mmo having played it a lot. His knowledge of MMO's in general is unknown, therefore any comments he makes regarding MMO's in general or the future of the genre is not credible
Person B's knowledge of past MMO's = unknown. Likely he knows quite a bit about mmo's in general, seeing as it only takes a few hours/days to figure mmo's out. However he may lack specific knowledge about a particular MMO, therefore any discussion he makes on how mmo's should be in relation to a particular past MMO are not credible.
People on this site do that a lot. Because one game did something they say that the whole genre at the time is defined by that. E.g grouping, EQ was a group heavy game that was considered very difficult (aka tedious) for soloers, however that did not define the genre. SWG you could solo a lot, I'm told UO and AC you could solo a lot. Therefore the genre was not defined by grouping.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I think people start losing credibility when they generalize people that they don't know based on their hardware and their commitment to a single game. I think it's better to judge someone's credibility based on what they say and their reasoning behind what they say.
I'm not a big fan of the, "I was here first, longer and more often!" crowd which often feels overly entitled to give advice anyway. At least the approach is ridiculous. But people that have reasoning skills and communication skills that have actually been there first, longer and more often probably have some solid things to say. I think there are a lot of people that THINK they are like that, but really aren't.
this isn't the way it works in real life, I used to own several pre-built computers until I started setting them up on my own.
I used to avoid online games way way back, and by now I've played alot of them.
You can't exclude people just because they're trying different things and prefer other things than the elitists.
The real issue is lack of good games, not players.
You're missing the point.
I gave examples of both extremes. The hobbyist that puts everything (time, money, and thought) into gaming and the guy that "doesn't give a shit" and is just here for "free entertainment".
Which one would you want representing you if a gaming company asked for their opinion about MMOs?
They don't ask for an opinion, they look at what sells. To game companies it's about what makes most money, or what they think is most profitable.
You don't think companies research opinions and trends in regards to their respective industry?
If the only people that can post on your forums pay a sub, then wouldn't you want to go somewhere that the gamers that are not subbed are talking about games to find out why they are not playing yours?
Which person in the OP would you want to be considered for directions MMOs should be going?
this isn't the way it works in real life, I used to own several pre-built computers until I started setting them up on my own.
I used to avoid online games way way back, and by now I've played alot of them.
You can't exclude people just because they're trying different things and prefer other things than the elitists.
The real issue is lack of good games, not players.
You're missing the point.
I gave examples of both extremes. The hobbyist that puts everything (time, money, and thought) into gaming and the guy that "doesn't give a shit" and is just here for "free entertainment".
Which one would you want representing you if a gaming company asked for their opinion about MMOs?
They don't ask for an opinion, they look at what sells. To game companies it's about what makes most money, or what they think is most profitable.
You don't think companies research opinions and trends in regards to their respective industry?
If the only people that can post on your forums pay a sub, then wouldn't you want to go somewhere that the gamers that are not subbed are talking about games to find out why they are not playing yours?
Which person in the OP would you want to be considered for directions MMOs should be going?
I don't think they care about opinions no, they either try to copy success made by others because they're too stupid to come up with something original, or they are more creative and busy following their own plan.
Not alot of companies and devs that follows any group of gamers opinions.
This is like a hardcore gamer vs casual gamer situation, you can't really exclude any of them, none are better or worse.
I give little weight to personal opinions, which are generally subjective , in deciding what interests me.
More than often, I don't like what they do.
The amusing observation that I've made is that certain individuals have tastes that are polar opposite of mine. If they don't like something, there's a reasonable chance that I might.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
I give little weight to personal opinions, which are generally subjective , in deciding what interests me.
More than often, I don't like what they do.
The amusing observation that I've made is that certain individuals have tastes that are polar opposite of mine. If they don't like something, there's a reasonable chance that I might.
Zombie Ken,
I hate to tell you this, but the former living you, is what we call a hipster. :P
I give little weight to personal opinions, which are generally subjective , in deciding what interests me.
More than often, I don't like what they do.
The amusing observation that I've made is that certain individuals have tastes that are polar opposite of mine. If they don't like something, there's a reasonable chance that I might.
I don't think they care about opinions no, they either try to copy success made by others because they're too stupid to come up with something original, or they are more creative and busy following their own plan.
Not alot of companies and devs that follows any group of gamers opinions.
This is like a hardcore gamer vs casual gamer situation, you can't really exclude any of them, none are better or worse.
This isn't really about hardcore vs casuals. I think a casual can play a game and play a character to its full potential. Time is a factor.
I'm talking about people that play MMOs as a hobby vs people that don't really give a crap if a game succeeds as it's free entertainment.
One will know every thing that games have to offer because he plays to its full potential.
The other only plays what he has access to for free.
I'm saying that a person that doesn't care about games, see them as entertainment, and only has limited knowledge and experience in all the games he has played due to F2P limitations shouldn't be given much credibility as someone who is more dedicated to gaming.
And when I say dedicated, I mean in a crazy way, like able to re-write the entire game code his self.
I don't think they care about opinions no, they either try to copy success made by others because they're too stupid to come up with something original, or they are more creative and busy following their own plan.
Not alot of companies and devs that follows any group of gamers opinions.
This is like a hardcore gamer vs casual gamer situation, you can't really exclude any of them, none are better or worse.
This isn't really about hardcore vs casuals. I think a casual can play a game and play a character to its full potential. Time is a factor.
I'm talking about people that play MMOs as a hobby vs people that don't really give a crap if a game succeeds as it's free entertainment.
One will know every thing that games have to offer because he plays to its full potential.
The other only plays what he has access to for free.
I'm saying that a person that doesn't care about games, see them as entertainment, and only has limited knowledge and experience in all the games he has played due to F2P limitations shouldn't be given much credibility as someone who is more dedicated to gaming.
And when I say dedicated, I mean in a crazy way, like able to re-write the entire game code his self.
Sounds like casual vs hardcore to me still.
If a player don't care about the game it might not be a good game in the first place so why should they? Again it's completely subjective.
It can go both ways, like looking at a gamer as someone who's an expert at that game, or an idiot who's attached to a computer game.
Anyway it doesn't matter, cause mmorpg companies are driven and run by money, and rarely passion, unfortunately.
If a player don't care about the game it might not be a good game in the first place so why should they? Again it's completely subjective.
It can go both ways, like looking at a gamer as someone who's an expert at that game, or an idiot who's attached to a computer game.
Anyway it doesn't matter, cause mmorpg companies are driven and run by money, and rarely passion, unfortunately.
Anything can be subjective if you need it to be. Wasn't looking for a psychoanalysis. I laid out a fictitious scenario. I'm sure people are still capable of making a choice based on little information, yes? For the sake of discussion? Would you or any anyone have read some detailed wall of text? Just interested in which guy people would choose.
If a player don't care about the game it might not be a good game in the first place so why should they? Again it's completely subjective.
It can go both ways, like looking at a gamer as someone who's an expert at that game, or an idiot who's attached to a computer game.
Anyway it doesn't matter, cause mmorpg companies are driven and run by money, and rarely passion, unfortunately.
Anything can be subjective if you need it to be. Wasn't looking for a psychoanalysis. I laid out a fictitious scenario. I'm sure people are still capable of making a choice based on little information, yes? For the sake of discussion? Would you or any anyone have read some detailed wall of text? Just interested in which guy people would choose.
I agree with the passion part.
Sorry but you can't convince me that some elitist spending lots of money and time on a game has more cred than a newb who plays casually for fun.
They both have the right to do what they like to do, they're both enjoying playing games, none of them should have a stronger voice than the other, although pracitcally it's probably the newb that drives the market.
The elitist is usually a better ganker/gear-equiped anyway so it evens out.
Sorry but you can't convince me that some elitist spending lots of money and time on a game has more cred than a newb who plays casually for fun.
They both have the right to do what they like to do, they're both enjoying playing games, none of them should have a stronger voice than the other, although pracitcally it's probably the newb that drives the market.
The elitist is usually a better ganker/gear-equiped anyway so it evens out.
Again, this is about hobbyist vs free entertainment seekers.
Making this about hardcore vs casual changes the dynamic of the discussion. I have a whole different opinion on that topic.
I don't see how a free entertainment seeker, who only has access to 1/3 of a games' content or what that game has to offer has equal credibility with someone that has experienced everything the game has to offer.
Sorry but you can't convince me that some elitist spending lots of money and time on a game has more cred than a newb who plays casually for fun.
They both have the right to do what they like to do, they're both enjoying playing games, none of them should have a stronger voice than the other, although pracitcally it's probably the newb that drives the market.
The elitist is usually a better ganker/gear-equiped anyway so it evens out.
Again, this is about hobbyist vs free entertainment seekers.
Making this about hardcore vs casual changes the dynamic of the discussion. I have a whole different opinion on that topic.
I don't see how a free entertainment seeker, who only has access to 1/3 of a games' content or what that game has to offer has equal credibility with someone that has experienced everything the game has to offer.
They may not be able to comment more about that particular game.
However the question was about the genre and where it's going, and the free entertainment seeker arguably has played more games and is thus more familiar with the genre.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
One guy builds a computer specifically for an MMO and keeps his hardware updated. He spends money on MMOs and considers playing MMOs as a hobby. He has invested time and money. He has a sense of attachment to his character and wants to play it to its full potential.
Another guy owns a pre-built computer that he bought at Wal-mart eight years ago and never upgraded it because it "does the job". He casually hops from MMO to MMO every few weeks to play free content and considers playing MMOs are entertainment (like watching tv and movies). He doesn't really care about his character because he'll uninstall the game in a few weeks anyways because he HAS to find another MMO to play do to limitations set by F2P.
When discussing MMOs of the past and the direction MMOs should be heading, which player has more credibility?
*Update*
I noticed a few people focusing on the computer part of this scenario. To clarify, too many times have I read that a game sucks, later finding out that the game "sucks" because the game lags, graphics are bad, and freezes up. Then find out after further prodding that they have a 1999 P4 chip set and 2G RAM running Windows XP.
So yes, it matters what hardware a person has.
You lost me right there, what SHOULD be playing MMOs equal to? A job? Going to school? No thanks, already have that.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
This is a gaming forum. Your credibility hinges on if you +1 my posts.
+2
i'm contrary that way.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
why are these arguments always so binary? its always one or the other. its like someone stopped taking personal reflection and moral decision making as part of life. instead they've stuck with what is basically a much younger and less nuanced form of argumentation and understanding.
whereas the adult typically understands that even in the most blatantly black/white arguments there are almost always some areas that cannot be completely pinned down.
and even saying you could narrow it all down to just one simple answer, who is that going to impact the most?
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
I always thought credibility hinged on integrity, not preference or purchasing power.
^this.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
One guy builds a computer specifically for an MMO and keeps his hardware updated. He spends money on MMOs and considers playing MMOs as a hobby. He has invested time and money. He has a sense of attachment to his character and wants to play it to its full potential.
Another guy owns a pre-built computer that he bought at Wal-mart eight years ago and never upgraded it because it "does the job". He casually hops from MMO to MMO every few weeks to play free content and considers playing MMOs are entertainment (like watching tv and movies). He doesn't really care about his character because he'll uninstall the game in a few weeks anyways because he HAS to find another MMO to play do to limitations set by F2P.
When discussing MMOs of the past and the direction MMOs should be heading, which player has more credibility?
And you don't realize at all how you're coming across right now? Seriously?
Apparently he doesn't..
@NorseGod: When someone has to tell me that he has credibility, it is a sure sign that he doesn't.
I am one of the guys that has an old PC and struggles to play MMOs. Because I can't afford some monster PC, that doesn't make my voice shiver in your presence, mylord.
I admit that I don't care much for any title in the present, but that is not because there are plenty of amazing MMOs right now, and my PC can't handle them. It's because most MMOs in the present days are shiny crap built for awesome PCs such as yours.
With this post alone, you have lost credibility... your PC specs are quite irrelevant
Comments
I don't, it's amusing
no offense though.
Neither.
You haven't stated the qualifications of the people in reference to the subject.
Subject is mmo's of the past and the direction MMO's should be heading.
Person A's knowledge of past MMO's = unknown. Likely he knows a lot about one mmo having played it a lot. His knowledge of MMO's in general is unknown, therefore any comments he makes regarding MMO's in general or the future of the genre is not credible
Person B's knowledge of past MMO's = unknown. Likely he knows quite a bit about mmo's in general, seeing as it only takes a few hours/days to figure mmo's out. However he may lack specific knowledge about a particular MMO, therefore any discussion he makes on how mmo's should be in relation to a particular past MMO are not credible.
People on this site do that a lot. Because one game did something they say that the whole genre at the time is defined by that. E.g grouping, EQ was a group heavy game that was considered very difficult (aka tedious) for soloers, however that did not define the genre. SWG you could solo a lot, I'm told UO and AC you could solo a lot. Therefore the genre was not defined by grouping.
I think people start losing credibility when they generalize people that they don't know based on their hardware and their commitment to a single game. I think it's better to judge someone's credibility based on what they say and their reasoning behind what they say.
I'm not a big fan of the, "I was here first, longer and more often!" crowd which often feels overly entitled to give advice anyway. At least the approach is ridiculous. But people that have reasoning skills and communication skills that have actually been there first, longer and more often probably have some solid things to say. I think there are a lot of people that THINK they are like that, but really aren't.
You don't think companies research opinions and trends in regards to their respective industry?
If the only people that can post on your forums pay a sub, then wouldn't you want to go somewhere that the gamers that are not subbed are talking about games to find out why they are not playing yours?
Which person in the OP would you want to be considered for directions MMOs should be going?
Ikr... -.-
But I'll still say both.
I don't think they care about opinions no, they either try to copy success made by others because they're too stupid to come up with something original, or they are more creative and busy following their own plan.
Not alot of companies and devs that follows any group of gamers opinions.
This is like a hardcore gamer vs casual gamer situation, you can't really exclude any of them, none are better or worse.
I give little weight to personal opinions, which are generally subjective , in deciding what interests me.
More than often, I don't like what they do.
The amusing observation that I've made is that certain individuals have tastes that are polar opposite of mine. If they don't like something, there's a reasonable chance that I might.
This is a gaming forum. Your credibility hinges on if you +1 my posts.
Zombie Ken,
I hate to tell you this, but the former living you, is what we call a hipster. :P
EQ2 fan sites
You spend too much time with the wrong people lol
This isn't really about hardcore vs casuals. I think a casual can play a game and play a character to its full potential. Time is a factor.
I'm talking about people that play MMOs as a hobby vs people that don't really give a crap if a game succeeds as it's free entertainment.
One will know every thing that games have to offer because he plays to its full potential.
The other only plays what he has access to for free.
I'm saying that a person that doesn't care about games, see them as entertainment, and only has limited knowledge and experience in all the games he has played due to F2P limitations shouldn't be given much credibility as someone who is more dedicated to gaming.
And when I say dedicated, I mean in a crazy way, like able to re-write the entire game code his self.
None, it's subjective
Sounds like casual vs hardcore to me still.
If a player don't care about the game it might not be a good game in the first place so why should they? Again it's completely subjective.
It can go both ways, like looking at a gamer as someone who's an expert at that game, or an idiot who's attached to a computer game.
Anyway it doesn't matter, cause mmorpg companies are driven and run by money, and rarely passion, unfortunately.
Anything can be subjective if you need it to be. Wasn't looking for a psychoanalysis. I laid out a fictitious scenario. I'm sure people are still capable of making a choice based on little information, yes? For the sake of discussion? Would you or any anyone have read some detailed wall of text? Just interested in which guy people would choose.
I agree with the passion part.
Sorry but you can't convince me that some elitist spending lots of money and time on a game has more cred than a newb who plays casually for fun.
They both have the right to do what they like to do, they're both enjoying playing games, none of them should have a stronger voice than the other, although pracitcally it's probably the newb that drives the market.
The elitist is usually a better ganker/gear-equiped anyway so it evens out.
Again, this is about hobbyist vs free entertainment seekers.
Making this about hardcore vs casual changes the dynamic of the discussion. I have a whole different opinion on that topic.
I don't see how a free entertainment seeker, who only has access to 1/3 of a games' content or what that game has to offer has equal credibility with someone that has experienced everything the game has to offer.
They may not be able to comment more about that particular game.
However the question was about the genre and where it's going, and the free entertainment seeker arguably has played more games and is thus more familiar with the genre.
Identical to 4000 other posts a day?
You lost me right there, what SHOULD be playing MMOs equal to? A job? Going to school? No thanks, already have that.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
+2
i'm contrary that way.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
I always thought credibility hinged on integrity, not preference or purchasing power.
why are these arguments always so binary? its always one or the other. its like someone stopped taking personal reflection and moral decision making as part of life. instead they've stuck with what is basically a much younger and less nuanced form of argumentation and understanding.
whereas the adult typically understands that even in the most blatantly black/white arguments there are almost always some areas that cannot be completely pinned down.
and even saying you could narrow it all down to just one simple answer, who is that going to impact the most?
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
^this.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Apparently he doesn't..
@NorseGod: When someone has to tell me that he has credibility, it is a sure sign that he doesn't.
I am one of the guys that has an old PC and struggles to play MMOs. Because I can't afford some monster PC, that doesn't make my voice shiver in your presence, mylord.
I admit that I don't care much for any title in the present, but that is not because there are plenty of amazing MMOs right now, and my PC can't handle them. It's because most MMOs in the present days are shiny crap built for awesome PCs such as yours.
With this post alone, you have lost credibility... your PC specs are quite irrelevant