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What is missing from the recent crop of MMORPG's?

2

Comments

  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,768Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by LittleBoot

    For me it is any sense of depth or complexity, combined with a lack of community.  In fact I would summarise it as follows: - 

    1. Game play has become simplified, and twitch does not make a game harder, it just requires more attention than I can give to an MMO which requires many hours of game play.  I have other things I need to be doing.  

    2. Mechanics are solo-centric; you sit in a hub waiting for an event to pop.  All other areas of the map are obsolete once you have passed that level.  

    3. Levels persist, but in a diluted manner, you can alter your level on a whim or assist others; all sorts of mechanics have been introduced that make levels entirely pointless; yet no-one has had the balls to remove them entirely.  

    4. I know you should make your own social experience; but this is only part of the story.  A game needs to give you a reason to socialise and most modern games do precisely the opposite.  

    5. The same old tired questing mechanics are rolled out time and time again but given new names (GW2 is a prime example) to try to hide the utter tedium involved in repeating the same old content we have been playing through for years.  

    6. I could go on...

    So what is missing in new MMO's for you?   

    1.  When I'm grouped up with others I give just as much attention to a "older" style tab targeting game than I do a twitch combat style.  It's the least I can do for the 5 other or people who I am grouped with.

    2.  Solo leveling and casual end game mechanics in and of themselves are not a bad thing but there needs to be nudges into more social oriented activities like guilds.  I don't think the answer need alway be gear progression but there does need to be something to promote social actives in games and auto events where no one socializes don't cut it.  Things like bonuses to guilds that work together to accomplish difficult goals are good things.

    3.  Altering level's is probably one of the greatest pro social mechanics a game can add so I don't agree with you that's its a issue.  Being able to mentor down to help out a friend who left the game for a time means both of us can play together in a meaninful way and increases the chances that they will continue to log in and not give up the game before they can match up on level.

    4.  I agree and IMO this is the real issue with what has been missing from "modern" MMO's.  There is no benefit to being in a guild these days other than as a chat room with dungeon finders.  Now I don't think dungeon finders are bad in and of themselves but games that have them need to find ways to promote strong healthy active guilds or they end up solo waste lands with the bulk of the players just moving on after finishing the solo part of the game.

    5.  There is nothing wrong with traditional quest hubs, however there needs to be careful thought put into how games migrate players from solo play to group play.  

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vunak23
    Originally posted by maplestone

    I don't find games are less complex, I just find that my expections keep rising.

    Yes, old mechanics are often streamlined or simplified, but that ignores all new content being added.

    You don't find them less complex? Even implementations of current games are less complex than their older versions. WoW included. Look what they did to the Talent System, before you had to make certain choices and had a lot to build to. Now, you get one talent every 15 levels. Alterac Valley used to be pretty complex and would last forever... now? Lets not even compare the 40mans to what we have now... 

    So yes, games are getting less complex.  Hopefully EQNext, Star Citizen, and perhaps ArcheAge will breathe new life into this stale Genre. 

    I have to wonder at people saying older games were not more complex compared to their modern counterparts.

    Let's look at arrows in DAOC.  An archer has to chose between 3 different tips, each doing more damage to certain armor types vs others, determine whether to go for extra range or extra damage, and decide how many of each type to carry since they all have weight and too many will slow you down.

    Some modern MMO's are arming archers with unlimited arrows with no weight and no variance in damage type.

    This is only one example of literally dozens of ways DAOC is more complex than most titles out there today, and the same holds true for other older game such as UO, AC, FFXI etc as well.

    Risk vs Reward, inconvenience, actually having to struggle against the time sinks to overcome and persevere, all end up making a game more interesting and are likely to hold a persons interest longer.  (assuming they want to be held longer)

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Vunak23
     

    I have to wonder at people saying older games were not more complex compared to their modern counterparts.

    Let's look at arrows in DAOC.  An archer has to chose between 3 different tips, each doing more damage to certain armor types vs others, determine whether to go for extra range or extra damage, and decide how many of each type to carry since they all have weight and too many will slow you down.

    Some modern MMO's are arming archers with unlimited arrows with no weight and no variance in damage type.

    This is only one example of literally dozens of ways DAOC is more complex than most titles out there today, and the same holds true for other older game such as UO, AC, FFXI etc as well.

    Risk vs Reward, inconvenience, actually having to struggle against the time sinks to overcome and persevere, all end up making a game more interesting and are likely to hold a persons interest longer.  (assuming they want to be held longer)

    Can you tell the difference between depth and complexity? Do you understand why features are sometimes cut?

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Posts: 2,114Member Uncommon

    Gamers like myself have become very experienced mmog players.....we expect more  and we are getting  less

    Company's making games  have become fewer...we have fewer choices

    The world economy is not healthy.Discretionary spending is less.Consumers have raised the bar for businesses to win the consumers reduced discretionary spending.

    Large company gaming decision makers  still believe they can shovel the same **** out the door and people will buy it.Those decision makers haven't paid the price for those poor decisions by being removed from their job.

    A vocal minority of simpeltons who want everything handed to them yesterday are being listened to by too many game decision makers

  • JjixJjix Boston, MAPosts: 141Member

    The problem with modern MMO's -- particularly AAA MMOs -- is that in dividing the demographics of their players into two primary camps, "casuals" and "hardcore", they ended up designing games that ignore the bulk of players who fall into neither category.

    The phenomena of solo-oriented MMORPGs, aka "modern" MMOs, was the end result of a long war within the player and developer communities going back a decade over the phenomena of what was called "forced grouping". The anti-forced grouping crowed -- spawned by the influx of players who had a very limited amount of time to play -- argued that grouping is something you should be able to do if you wanted to, but there should be no actual advantages to doing so.

    The solution to this division, between those who wanted grouping to be relevant and those who did not, was realized when it became clear that it was "casual" gamers -- or those with very tight real life schedules -- who wanted the solo-friendly experience. The solution became to separate the basic leveling process, 1- 50, from "end game" content; the former tailored to casual gamers who preferred easy solo content, the latter to a newly defined "hardcore" gamer who preferred challenges and group play. The reasoning was, hardcore gamers will just blow through the leveling process, for them the real game will begin at 50. Meanwhile, the casual gamer will have a sense that they are playing the full game and will have a feeling that they are making progress and achieving things despite their limited hours of game play.

    The problem is, this neat divide between casual and hardcore is not nearly as neat as it appears. There is a very long stretch of players who fall somewhere between the two extremes, dare I say the majority of players do, and there simply was no game being made specifically for them.

    These players in the middle are the players the old games catered to. They are basically players who have a good amount of time to play, but are more interested in having fun and an epic adventure than being the best and achieving the most stuff. These players tend to actually prefer the 1-50 leveling process and exploring the MMO world over the long, instanced, competitive end-game grind and raid scenes associated with the modern "hardcore" player. On the other hand, they aren't casuals either. They have time to play. They think MMOs are about grouping. They don't want it to be too heavy or serious, but they want it to be challenging. They aren't particularly compelled by the questing mechanic and if they are going to solo, they would rather be playing a single-player rpg. These are the players that are nostalgic for the past, because it was in the past that mmorpgs were made specifically for them.

  • LittleBootLittleBoot roystonPosts: 326Member
    Originally posted by Jjix

    The problem with modern MMO's -- particularly AAA MMOs -- is that in dividing the demographics of their players into two primary camps, "casuals" and "hardcore", they ended up designing games that ignore the bulk of players who fall into neither category.

    The phenomena of solo-oriented MMORPGs, aka "modern" MMOs, was the end result of a long war within the player and developer communities going back a decade over the phenomena of what was called "forced grouping". The anti-forced grouping crowed -- spawned by the influx of players who had a very limited amount of time to play -- argued that grouping is something you should be able to do if you wanted to, but there should be no actual advantages to doing so.

    The solution to this division, between those who wanted grouping to be relevant and those who did not, was realized when it became clear that it was "casual" gamers -- or those with very tight real life schedules -- who wanted the solo-friendly experience. The solution became to separate the basic leveling process, 1- 50, from "end game" content; the former tailored to casual gamers who preferred easy solo content, the latter to a newly defined "hardcore" gamer who preferred challenges and group play. The reasoning was, hardcore gamers will just blow through the leveling process, for them the real game will begin at 50. Meanwhile, the casual gamer will have a sense that they are playing the full game and will have a feeling that they are making progress and achieving things despite their limited hours of game play.

    The problem is, this neat divide between casual and hardcore is not nearly as neat as it appears. There is a very long stretch of players who fall somewhere between the two extremes, dare I say the majority of players do, and there simply was no game being made specifically for them.

    These players in the middle are the players the old games catered to. They are basically players who have a good amount of time to play, but are more interested in having fun and an epic adventure than being the best and achieving the most stuff. These players tend to actually prefer the 1-50 leveling process and exploring the MMO world, in having an epic adventure. They are less interested in the long, instanced, competitive end-game grind and raid scenes associated with the modern "hardcore" player. On the other hand, they aren't casuals either. They want to group up with other players and have fun in a cooperative, social setting that isn't too heavy or serious, but is nevertheless challenging. They have time to play and commit to group play. They aren't particularly compelled by questing and story and if they are going to solo, they would rather be playing a single-player rpg. These are the players that are nostalgic for the past, because it was in the past that mmorpgs were made specifically for them.

    nail on head. 

  • negativf4kknegativf4kk WorthingPosts: 377Member Uncommon

    Soul is missing(((((( 

    It`s been taken prisoner by the GREED !!!! Its not the greed of players but the one of leeches, who got no interest in MMORPG. Profit became the goal, success of MMORPG measures at the end of financial year.  

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  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Vunak23
     

    I have to wonder at people saying older games were not more complex compared to their modern counterparts.

    Let's look at arrows in DAOC.  An archer has to chose between 3 different tips, each doing more damage to certain armor types vs others, determine whether to go for extra range or extra damage, and decide how many of each type to carry since they all have weight and too many will slow you down.

    Some modern MMO's are arming archers with unlimited arrows with no weight and no variance in damage type.

    This is only one example of literally dozens of ways DAOC is more complex than most titles out there today, and the same holds true for other older game such as UO, AC, FFXI etc as well.

    Risk vs Reward, inconvenience, actually having to struggle against the time sinks to overcome and persevere, all end up making a game more interesting and are likely to hold a persons interest longer.  (assuming they want to be held longer)

    Can you tell the difference between depth and complexity? Do you understand why features are sometimes cut?

    Do you understand why sometimes features shouldn't be?

    These variances in arrows aren't meant to frustrate the player, they are meant to challenge them into properly identifying their target and using the appropriate arrow type, because the difference in damage could mean life or death in terms of the final outcome. 

    It also adds to the element of the unexpected, you bring a lot of arrows to the fight expecting a bunch of chain wearers, and it turns out more are wearing leather or plate, and you guessed incorrectly.

    Finally, it forces them to chose, since arrows have weight, one cannot carry an unlimited supply of each type, especially if they have to factor in carrying siege equipment or other items as well.

    Complexity is not a bad thing..... though you seem to feel it is something to always be avoided.

    If you are as good as you claim to be, this should be no problem for you to deal with, and in fact, use to your advantage, as I see so many archers in DAOC do on a regular basis.  The ones who don't are the ones I'm able to charge up to and kill on my Skald with little problem.

     

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • monochrome19monochrome19 Chicago, ILPosts: 455Member Uncommon

    If you dont have the time to invest in an MMO you should...

     

    a) Not complain.

     

    or...

     

    b) Stop playing.

     

    Simple.

  • SoliloquySoliloquy Somerville, MAPosts: 128Member Common

    I'm going to remind you guys to keep it civil.

     

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Vunak23
    Originally posted by maplestone

    I don't find games are less complex, I just find that my expections keep rising.

    Yes, old mechanics are often streamlined or simplified, but that ignores all new content being added.

    You don't find them less complex? Even implementations of current games are less complex than their older versions. WoW included. Look what they did to the Talent System, before you had to make certain choices and had a lot to build to. Now, you get one talent every 15 levels. Alterac Valley used to be pretty complex and would last forever... now? Lets not even compare the 40mans to what we have now... 

    So yes, games are getting less complex.  Hopefully EQNext, Star Citizen, and perhaps ArcheAge will breathe new life into this stale Genre. 

    I have to wonder at people saying older games were not more complex compared to their modern counterparts.

    Let's look at arrows in DAOC.  An archer has to chose between 3 different tips, each doing more damage to certain armor types vs others, determine whether to go for extra range or extra damage, and decide how many of each type to carry since they all have weight and too many will slow you down.

    Some modern MMO's are arming archers with unlimited arrows with no weight and no variance in damage type.

     

     

    I agree, the way having a bow gives you unlimited arrows is actually pathetic and lazy. They call these classes rangers when really they are nothing of the sort. If you really want to play a ranger then look no further than Vanguards ranger who has skills like fletching and foraging.

    You can make arrows without the need of being at a crafting station, you can also make poison. A ranger in Vanguard is more of a scout who can survive in the wilderness for days on end. Arrows have different stats along with bolts, if you have no arrows then you are in trouble.

    http://wiki.silkyvenom.com/index.php/Ranger

    As far as the OP goes then he must blame himself for letting graphics and the new shiny control what mmos he plays. There are a number of mmos he could be playing, new and old. Age Of Wulin isn't one of the mmos he is complaining about.

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  • muppetpilotmuppetpilot Fort Wayne, INPosts: 163Member Uncommon

    OP, I agree with many of your points. However, in this day and age (and I have been gaming for 25 years), I don't think it's so much that things are "missing" from MMOs.  I believe the crux of the problem is twofold, although both sides of the problem tend to feed off of one another: first, our society now, particularly in the West, has become suffused with a terribly rampant attitude of entitlement; and second, you simply cannot make everybody happy all the time, no matter how fantastic your game is.

    Some of the respondents seem to agree that MMOs now lack "soul", and they may have a point, but I think that's an over-generalization.  So many people, including many gamers, simply want too much, too fast.  Forget about what the minimum requirements of anything are in a game; nowadays, a large number of folks just want to somewhat meet the requirements do do X or acquire Y, and then at that point they believe they should be given what they are "entitled" to have.  This is a large part of the reason why much of the perceived "dumbing down" or "accessibility" of things in MMOs now is so reviled; and honestly, if you're a hardcore raider or PvPer who poured his heart and soul into an aspect of a game or gearing that is now being doled out for almost nothing, then in my opinion you have every right to be upset.  This type of problem is the primary reason I no longer play WoW:  I was a longtime PvPer, and when the developers decided to suddenly make PvP gear essentially worthless and hand out resilience to everyman for nothing, it made me feel like my time and effort had been devalued.

    I believe the other half of the difficulty with MMOs now is that no matter how good your devs are, no matter how smart you are, and no matter how incredible your game is, it is simply impossible to make everybody happy.  Every MMO is going to have its detractors, regardless of how different or groundbreaking it actually is, or regardless of how well it follows convention and delivers on established systems.  You can give your product away for free all you want to; some people still aren't going to like it and thus won't want it.  Even if every MMO except one were to disappear tomorrow, there's no way that every single MMO player would migrate to that one remaining game because any number of them simply won't agree with it.  And honestly, I think that sometimes devs and publishers listen to negative feedback a little too much, and I think this has a lot to do with the unending struggle to balance these games.  Don't get me wrong, it's wonderful to see companies interact with their player bases, but sometimes I wonder if said players aren't being given a little too much credence.

    "Why would I want to loose a religion upon my people? Religions wreck from within - Empires and individuals alike! It's all the same." - God Emperor of Dune

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GuyClinch

    Almost all the problems spring out of the success of World of Warcraft. Don't get me wrong Warcraft had many strong qualities.

    But the one 'takeaway' that developers had was that  'hand-holding' = money.

    Thus in even the best modern MMOs we have excessive handholding which is entirely different then the pre-warcraft MMOs.

    i agree w this conclusion

  • AlastirAlastir Lexington, KYPosts: 14Member Uncommon
    All of the above . I thought i was the only one who felt this way. I can remember the first time i played EQ1 , I was so in awe of the person running by me with a levitate spell going .. Right now there is no game that holds that kind of reaction to anyone . and it didn't take 1 week to run thru 6months of dev work . To sum up , Very disappointed on how the MMOs are being developed these days.
  • Aison2Aison2 MarburgPosts: 624Member
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by GuyClinch

    Almost all the problems spring out of the success of World of Warcraft. Don't get me wrong Warcraft had many strong qualities.

    But the one 'takeaway' that developers had was that  'hand-holding' = money.

    Thus in even the best modern MMOs we have excessive handholding which is entirely different then the pre-warcraft MMOs.

    i agree w this conclusion

    It's true but it wasn't entirely on the developers account.
    Guides strongly simpflified the experience.  Players won't make any decisions regardless of the systems complexity - at the end most just look up the perfect build / rotation on the net or watch the video how to play.

     

    Pi*1337/100 = 42

  • TheAncientTheAncient KirkcaldyPosts: 67Member

    I agree with many of the points made so far. The single thing that struck me as a bad idea was Dungeon Finder.

    It was a game changer in more ways than one, sure you could find a group easily now, but that led to empty leveling areas, awful pug experiences (from rushing, to tanks & healers who can reach max level and still not know the basics of thier role), people reaching max level so fast as to not understand many important parts of the game. Moreover a really bad attitude to other players since insta-grouping allowed everyone to be a complete jerk with no consequences.

    Players used to make an effort to be civil before Dungeon finder. Getting a group did take time, but generally because of this dungeons were a lot more fun as people wanted to finish the dungeon succesfully, wanted to give it another go if there was a wipe, and sometimes wanted to team up again with that friendly dude who helped you with tips, or maybe an enchant.

    I made more casual friends before Dungeon Finder than after. It was enjoyable having other players whisper with "Hey m8 remember me from yesterday? We're doing X then maybe Y, fancy coming along?"

    Everyday in every MMORPG I play I see the same question, "What's the quickest way to reach Max Level", followed by the same stock answer "Reach X level and join Dungeon Finder"

  • LittleBootLittleBoot roystonPosts: 326Member
    Originally posted by Soliloquy

    I'm going to remind you guys to keep it civil.

     

    Was it anything else? 

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member

    A unique experience that makes each login a new adventure. I don't want to know all the answers to all the questions in an MMORPG anymore. I don't even want to know the questions! Give me a damn surprise already.

    I wish someone had the courage to forget the label MMORPG and make a game that isn't about levels, scripts, phat lewts and all the other things weighing down the genre. Just forget those things. Make a game without those preconceived notions of what an MMORPG "requires". Don't refine, do redefine.

    I know it sounds idealistic, but I don't see the point of remaking the same experience over and over.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • JjixJjix Boston, MAPosts: 141Member
    Originally posted by LittleBoot
    Originally posted by Soliloquy

    I'm going to remind you guys to keep it civil.

     

    Was it anything else? 

    Hehe, yeah, that was a bit out of left field.

  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Somewhere, NCPosts: 1,582Member Uncommon
    1. World
    2. Competent Crafting
    3. Immersion
    4. Complexity & Depth
    I want a world that operates like a world and isn't a uniformly spaced collection of landmarks. I want mounts that are more than a glorified run speed buff. I want a compass but no map or GPS-style you-are-here markers.
     
    Basically I want Oblivion + Eve Online in my MMORPG.

    <3

  • MalinkadinkMalinkadink From, NJPosts: 79Member
    Community is probably the biggest one, ever since MMOs have gone towards letting you solo 90% of the content people stopped talking and making an mmo feel alive. I'm only 20 so my mmo experience with the early games is slim, i started WoW in 2005/06 and before that i watched a cousin play EQ and EQ2 which is what got me into the genre. I had also played City of heroes and that game was a glorified chat room and i loved it. I literally paid $15 a month to stand in atlas park and talk to people it was a blast. 
  • JjixJjix Boston, MAPosts: 141Member
    Originally posted by Malinkadink
    Community is probably the biggest one, ever since MMOs have gone towards letting you solo 90% of the content people stopped talking and making an mmo feel alive. I'm only 20 so my mmo experience with the early games is slim, i started WoW in 2005/06 and before that i watched a cousin play EQ and EQ2 which is what got me into the genre. I had also played City of heroes and that game was a glorified chat room and i loved it. I literally paid $15 a month to stand in atlas park and talk to people it was a blast. 

    I loved City of Heroes also. Great community. It is a game that, in many ways, was Old School by virtue of the fact that its development pre-dated WoW, so there was yet no defined AAA standard. They did a lot of things differently and managed to find a perfect balance of a game that allowed you to jump into the action, grouped or solo, very quickly; and yet they didn't follow most of the protocol of modern MMOs in terms of solo-oriented questing and late game gear-grinding. They believed in grouping, they believed MMOs were about group play, but they managed to do it without ever feeling like it was forced. And they completely ignored gear, and pretty much left money and gear out of the game entirely . . . that is, until they were bought out by corperate NCSoft.

    And that is exactly when things started going downhill, albeit very gradually. You can't destroy a game overnight. But NCSoft immediately took steps to make the game more WoW-like. They made gear and money extremely important, introduced PvP, pushed more solo oriented mission/quest lines, and then eventually included raiding and end game content. Then once they completely transformed it into a super-hero WoW clone they canned it in hopes to drive the player base to their newly released Guild Wars 2.

  • SteelhelmSteelhelm LahtiPosts: 44Member

    The absence of solo content. I'd like to feel everything I do helps the guild or the community I'm playing for in some way. I'd like that to be the new definition of an mmo.

    On a side note. Just advancing the game, even if it would be for the whole game community doesn't really fit that description. So I would only apply that definition to player to player to interaction.

    image
  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by Aison2
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by GuyClinch

    Almost all the problems spring out of the success of World of Warcraft. Don't get me wrong Warcraft had many strong qualities.

    But the one 'takeaway' that developers had was that  'hand-holding' = money.

    Thus in even the best modern MMOs we have excessive handholding which is entirely different then the pre-warcraft MMOs.

    i agree w this conclusion

    It's true but it wasn't entirely on the developers account.
    Guides strongly simpflified the experience.  Players won't make any decisions regardless of the systems complexity - at the end most just look up the perfect build / rotation on the net or watch the video how to play.

     

    The game has to support something like "perfect" build in the first place, the content has to be simple enough to be trivialized by a guide.

    No video will help you if you dont like how it suggest you should play and a alternative approach can be more fun to you, but there has to be one.

    Those things are the developers fault. 

    Flame on!

    :)

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon

    Hopelessly large game worlds. I don't need them to be chock full of content. But I do kind of miss that feeling of being in the middle of nowhere in an mmo.

    I remember one day in SWG, I was out in the middle of Rori farming leathery hides for about an hour. Not a soul in sight until some guy came flying by on a swoop. He got off and came up to me saying something like, "what the hell are you doing out here? do you need help?" lol And that would make sense for him to think that since I was so far away from any town its like I was left for dead.

    Yeah I miss that.

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