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This might be a troll post, it's not my intent to troll.
The topic of PVP vs PVE could also be be written as Murder vs Adventure. Not only are they not antonyms but there is no need to even compare PVP vs PVE. My point is better illustrated in the real world event that changed how a game called WoW failed three times with delving PVP to subscribers...
-Vanilla WoW had full world PVP.
Enter PVP'er (any category, casual, elitist, hardcore, etc...)
Blizzard re-zoned and people who wanted to PVP opposing players in their 'noob zones' found glitches and either swam or ran for two hours (literally) to get some killing done.
Blizzard then created PVP Arenas and made the mistake of punishing players who did not participate (Via PVP Gear Rewards)
Blizzard then created PVP Zones where PVE Elements were massaged into a highly accepted fashion of PVP'ing.
Enough history... Let me get to my rant.
MMO's are social networks. We have the backdrop of the game to keep us occupied as we build social bonds. While I enjoy PvPing, I do not look at non-pvp'ers like they are second class citizens. I like defending my guild or another person or even a piece of real estate... what person wouldn't?
I would be ignorant to say that my skills as a PVP'er are better than those who don't. It would be the same injustice to say that a hardcore PVP'er cant muster the high end PVE content. Anyone can backstab a rabbit or deer, but how many can conquer content? Hmmmm.....
PVP should finally have it's home in MMO, after all this time. I truly believe that managing PVP is like being a prison guard. Who wants to babysit prisoners? Who wants to address 100k complaints with the same content? I don't.
At last, I will share my most memorable PVP encounter on a 'full pvp-full drop' server...
As I was skirting through the edge of town, on my way to selling some loot in order to use the funds to craft better gear. A player, five levels above me, was seen running through the center of town by my ever-watching eyes. He pretended not to see me, but my gut feeling told me there was going to be a fight.
I sold a few items while devising an exit plan in case he attacked. Suddenly, he attacked from a distance.
'Mage!" I thought.
Line of sight was killed as I stepped to the side and hopped over a tall barrier. AS he hopped over the barrier, I hit him with my longest casting spell... Boom!!! There went a large chunk of his health. He countered with a more powerful spell with a shorter cast time, as did I.
The fight went on for literally three minutes before I killed his LOS using the nearby barrier, then hopping back over to gain enough time to 'mana-up'. As he hopped back over I opened fire and killed him with only 3-5 health points of my own remaining.
I guarded his body while he limped back to his corpse. He whispered, 'why didnt you loot me man? I would have looted you.'
My reply, 'I took the most valuable thing... your life.'
He laughed, 'Dood... we respawn ya know. LOL'
I adjusted my quick bar to reflect a better rotation for PVP as he spoke, then I turned toward the nearby woods. He whispered, 'You need a guild?'
I thought about how he openly attacked me for no reason. I thought about him looting my only possessions in the game. I thought about getting away before he got his strength back... I had no reason to trust him.
"Sure... why not?!?", I said, as he added me to his guild
I looked at my new guild name and shrugged, why would anyone name a guild 'Blood'.
LOL -I love PVP, just cant stand the players -Attaka
I am a firm believer of pve. PVP is not even in my catagory of a mmorpg. Although pvp has its "fun" in some instances-DAOC realm vs realm- etc. But all out pvp is just wrong in my opinion.Aside from the mindless gankers who walk around just looking for someone with a lower level and weaker type solo class as they are to "whip thier butt". You have the other mindset who want to kill other players just to get thier loots. If pvp cannot be contained in arens or specially designed zones where solo or pve players will not adventure in because they know it is exclusively pvp it is surely a welcome addition to any game. But please do not make going into these zones the only way for pve people to aquire items and get to places they need to get to in order to finish quests or other game feature-like visiting needed towns or travel sites. Also, what is the need to aquire "PVP gear".If everyone who plays in the same game can get the same gear ,why do they need Special Gear to pvp? The same items should be available to all players who are equal level and standing in the game. Maybe subscription players should be able to get better gear than free players but I am also not a fan of the free player and item shop idea that is hitting the market .
But back to pvp vs pve. Please allow pvp only in restrivted zones or by a consent option.As stated i am not a fan ofpvp and would not miss it if it was erased from the genre altogether.Are there any exclusive pvp games that last more than a few years?? The thoughts of takeing on a relatively even strengthed mob and winning only to be hit from behind right after by some 13 year old pvper who wants to tell his friend he just beat a higher level character and got his items- without telling he was ant 30% strength from a previous fight just want ot make me puke.
The reason that I have never been able to get into PvP is because I have never found any game where there is any point to it. EVE Online is probably the best example of where players can alter the course of the game universe, but in most games, the PvP exists only to give one group of people the right to stand around pounding their chests. Nothing is accomplished by the fighting, so why fight?
I agree though, that there is no experience so exciting as fighting against another player, because it simply changes the dynamics of the conflict entirely.
It's simple. People play different games for different reasons and expect different experiences out of them. There is nothing good, bad, superior, inferior, etc about any of those choices. We're all just playing games for our own entertainment, period. Forcing PvP onto people who want only to PvE is a loosing proposition. It's like an amusment park forcing people who only want to go on the rides to smash thier thumbs with a hammer before each ride. It's a nonsense proposition for an entertainment product to force people into a situation they simply do not enjoy.
That's not to say that open world PvP games don't have a place - they do. They just shouldn't expect to draw in too many players who are solely interested in PvE....and players that choose that style of game shouldn't expect to avoid PvP. That's all fine. What's most important is for a game to honestly and clearly set the players expectations up front about what sort of experience they are going to get....and for the player to be clear and honest with themselves about what they want and not complain when a game delivers exactly what it said up front it would.
Unfortunately there is a small category of people who aren't interested in PvP at all, rather they want PvV (Player vs Victem) . They want situations setup where they get to prey on people who aren't interested, equiped or skilled to do PvP....they want easy kills for proffit. Then they get frustrated and complain when, shockingly, very few people sign up in those games to play thier full time victems. Should it really surprise any sane person that few people want to sign up for games to play full-time victems?
The only lesson here is that people have different tastes and expectations in entertainment. That's perfectly great....just don't expect people to do something that don't enjoy for entertainment.
Personaly I enjoy lots of different types of PvP - Turn Based and RTS Wargames, FPS, Sports, Boardgames, etc. I mostly don't enjoy PvP in MMO's because I find few do it well (aside from Planetside and WWII Online which play much closer to FPS games)...and it's not generaly what I look for out of an MMO. I also enjoy PvE quite a bit. It depends upon my mood....but I certainly don't want to experience one thing when I'm looking for something else entirely.
Originally posted by DMKano One thing I've learned over the years, both from personal experience and talking to actual game designers during game shows - you focus on ONE aspect and do it well - so you either make a PvP game or PvE game essentially, doing both and expecting them both to be equally important and balanced is next to impossible. This may be a hard pill to swallow, but thats the hard reality, each game has either PvE or PvP focus, never both, because at least you can do one well - focusing on both systems, you end up failing at both PvE and PvP.
Well said....Its actually hard to find a pure PVE game that does not have some form of PVP aded often as an afterthought.....I think too often they try to appeal to too broad of a range of gamer......ALso I still dont think I've ever seen a PVP game done right....Its either too hardcore (eve, Darkfall, Mortal Online) or theres no point to it (wow, eq, lotro)......
Originally posted by OnabFarell The reason that I have never been able to get into PvP is because I have never found any game where there is any point to it. EVE Online is probably the best example of where players can alter the course of the game universe, but in most games, the PvP exists only to give one group of people the right to stand around pounding their chests. Nothing is accomplished by the fighting, so why fight? I agree though, that there is no experience so exciting as fighting against another player, because it simply changes the dynamics of the conflict entirely.
Why fight in PvE then, just for the loot?
If the combat mechanics are pretty stellar gamers will fight for fun. PvP players look for a more challenging type of fight than PvE. Most PvE is designed to be beaten (back in the 80's some of it wasn't ). Against a human, it's nothing like that.
It's why chess players or any sports enthusiast likes to play against humans than machines. PvE is good at training you at the mechanics, PvP is where the challenge is.
PvP players don't play for the carrot.
I'm not that competitive but I do like the challenge PvP gives me in regard to combat. If I enjoy the combat mechanics, I'll stay and be social and engage in PvE too.
A well built bot will triumph in PVP over a player every single day. Their reaction time is quicker. They do not let human emotion affect their play. They are never tired. Outside problems do not influence how they play. This is, assuming, that the game play is fairly static and does not allow for a lot of changing of skills. Most games are this way, except, perhaps GOW and games that do not have carefully selected skill trees with a limited number of possible outcomes that are viable.
One has to look no further than chess to see how computers can rock humans. Or the new robot in Japan that will win every single time in rock paper scissors because it can process what the human hand is doing at such a rapid level that it can figure out what the human is doing and make the correct gesture to win.
But, frankly, humans are a lot more fun to play against.
Originally posted by Faelsun Originally posted by Rinna I'd be truly happy if they forever separated the two camps. I'm not a pvper, I won't ever be a pvper... how bout just let me enjoy my game my way and keep pvp over there. Arenas or instanced areas or separate games are better than open world pvp that alienates non pvpers. Or give me an option in open world to Never Ever Ever EVER flag up or autoflag.
People who don't pvp telling the rest of us what pvp is, thats rich.
Did you ever consider it was people like you who get emotional over your toon getting fake killed in a multi player game, VS other people and then expect to be left alone like its a single player game might be ruining the game for everyone else? When did this behavior ever become normal. Instanced and Arena areas are not pvp thats a mini game and that is why these bubblegum hand holding no bullying games flop. No one who is really serious about pvp world or structured plays GW2 which is probably why most of the people still playing it just collect cosmetics.
I mean to be blunt just because you are a chicken shit doesn't mean they have to code it in the game and ruin the fun of it for everyone else. Maybe grow a nutsack and participate, stop being such a crybaby and compete. Christ can you imagine how boring EVE online would be if it were JUST farming ore off rocks and chatting AFK, I mean when will cowards understand that coding a game around you not having any spine is going to be the most boring game ever made. I mean have you played GW2 they couldnt make a more boring POS, I can already tell you what the POS games will be because of the carebear crybaby pvp systems they implemented. Elder Scrolls is going to be carebear questfest with nothing to do.
I think Faelson makes a lot of good points as to why the PvP players are generally better off in their own games. The rest of us certainly would not want to ruin his, or any other PvP players games. I mean cmon guys lets face it!! Without our nutsacks, we are not even worthy to shine their swords!
We all have different expectations of what we want from a game. Many people enjoy different styles of gameplay, and are happy to try different types. Some like a little PvP now and then, some want nothing to do with it. So we need a few games in the middle for those players that like to try different things . But we also need games at both ends of the spectrum too. Unfortunately the spectrum end that Faelson refers to and I believe is a member of, is lacking and also proving to be a hard lot to please. Some attempts have been made but nothing seems to catch hold. Meanwhile the carebear end of the spectrum is doing quite nicely.
Faleson I think you have to ask yourself why that is, and why the games you would like to see are not happening. Maybe if you were a little more constructive about it and not just throwing the blame around, people might start to listen to the hardcores concerns a little more. And I am all for it because, frankly, I do not belong in the same game with you. Respectfully.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Originally posted by Boneserino Originally posted by Faelsun Originally posted by Rinna I'd be truly happy if they forever separated the two camps. I'm not a pvper, I won't ever be a pvper... how bout just let me enjoy my game my way and keep pvp over there. Arenas or instanced areas or separate games are better than open world pvp that alienates non pvpers. Or give me an option in open world to Never Ever Ever EVER flag up or autoflag.
Ultima Online, Ashercons Call, EVE online, to a lesser extent AOC, L2, RIFT. PvPers are not asking the PVE wood chopping raid hub camping crowd to go away, frankly I love killing them while they try to avoid me. But the gods honest truth is this without us in your game whatever mmorpg is happens to be it will lack any credibility. But I promise you wont find any top mmorpgs with no PVP in them what you will find is borefest wastelands with mindless herds of people running around looking for things to do, like GW2.
Personally any mmo that does not have PVP in it should be classified as a talker because all you are doing is using an overpriced chat room.
Originally posted by BMBender Originally posted by maskedweasel Theres really no catch all for these two things to work together in tandem to make one game everyone will love. I want more challenging general PvE content, and also more diverse PvP content... .... ..... .... ..... and I don't want it to be expensive either.
You should design one then.
I don't design MMOs. That doesn't mean that I do not have the ability or capacity to develop my own games. I am currently working in the mobile development field so who knows.... but no, an MMO would take too much work and way too many people for someone like me to honestly address. A MOG maybe..