It's simple. People play different games for different reasons and expect different experiences out of them. There is nothing good, bad, superior, inferior, etc about any of those choices. We're all just playing games for our own entertainment, period. Forcing PvP onto people who want only to PvE is a loosing proposition. It's like an amusment park forcing people who only want to go on the rides to smash thier thumbs with a hammer before each ride. It's a nonsense proposition for an entertainment product to force people into a situation they simply do not enjoy.
That's not to say that open world PvP games don't have a place - they do. They just shouldn't expect to draw in too many players who are solely interested in PvE....and players that choose that style of game shouldn't expect to avoid PvP. That's all fine. What's most important is for a game to honestly and clearly set the players expectations up front about what sort of experience they are going to get....and for the player to be clear and honest with themselves about what they want and not complain when a game delivers exactly what it said up front it would.
Unfortunately there is a small category of people who aren't interested in PvP at all, rather they want PvV (Player vs Victem) . They want situations setup where they get to prey on people who aren't interested, equiped or skilled to do PvP....they want easy kills for proffit. Then they get frustrated and complain when, shockingly, very few people sign up in those games to play thier full time victems. Should it really surprise any sane person that few people want to sign up for games to play full-time victems?
The only lesson here is that people have different tastes and expectations in entertainment. That's perfectly great....just don't expect people to do something that don't enjoy for entertainment.
Personaly I enjoy lots of different types of PvP - Turn Based and RTS Wargames, FPS, Sports, Boardgames, etc. I mostly don't enjoy PvP in MMO's because I find few do it well (aside from Planetside and WWII Online which play much closer to FPS games)...and it's not generaly what I look for out of an MMO. I also enjoy PvE quite a bit. It depends upon my mood....but I certainly don't want to experience one thing when I'm looking for something else entirely.
One thing I've learned over the years, both from personal experience and talking to actual game designers during game shows - you focus on ONE aspect and do it well - so you either make a PvP game or PvE game essentially, doing both and expecting them both to be equally important and balanced is next to impossible.
This may be a hard pill to swallow, but thats the hard reality, each game has either PvE or PvP focus, never both, because at least you can do one well - focusing on both systems, you end up failing at both PvE and PvP.
Well said....Its actually hard to find a pure PVE game that does not have some form of PVP aded often as an afterthought.....I think too often they try to appeal to too broad of a range of gamer......ALso I still dont think I've ever seen a PVP game done right....Its either too hardcore (eve, Darkfall, Mortal Online) or theres no point to it (wow, eq, lotro)......
You get chest thumping in pve games too. What about all the people in wow sitting in cities showing off their epics.
Anyway I think we need a variety of games
We need some 50/50 games like daoc and gw1 & 2 We need some mostly pve games like wow, tsw & rift (although we have more than enough of these games already) We need mostly pvp games like eve and DF We need only pvp games like planetside 2 We need only pve games, sorry can't think of any.
Problem with games that have both is how to balance it? Blizz sure have no clue how to, ffa pvp servers where lvl 90's get more bonus res than all other levels, gear that is insane(see players now over 1 mil hp), a lvl 85-89 is barely a speedbump, so for us liking world pvp where bu$$ fecked nicely, dead at 88 in 2 seconds while using cooldowns and instant heals while doing 2k dmg on the lvl 90 sure feels super fun.
The reason that I have never been able to get into PvP is because I have never found any game where there is any point to it. EVE Online is probably the best example of where players can alter the course of the game universe, but in most games, the PvP exists only to give one group of people the right to stand around pounding their chests. Nothing is accomplished by the fighting, so why fight?
I agree though, that there is no experience so exciting as fighting against another player, because it simply changes the dynamics of the conflict entirely.
Why fight in PvE then, just for the loot?
If the combat mechanics are pretty stellar gamers will fight for fun. PvP players look for a more challenging type of fight than PvE. Most PvE is designed to be beaten (back in the 80's some of it wasn't ). Against a human, it's nothing like that.
It's why chess players or any sports enthusiast likes to play against humans than machines. PvE is good at training you at the mechanics, PvP is where the challenge is.
PvP players don't play for the carrot.
I'm not that competitive but I do like the challenge PvP gives me in regard to combat. If I enjoy the combat mechanics, I'll stay and be social and engage in PvE too.
A well built bot will triumph in PVP over a player every single day. Their reaction time is quicker. They do not let human emotion affect their play. They are never tired. Outside problems do not influence how they play. This is, assuming, that the game play is fairly static and does not allow for a lot of changing of skills. Most games are this way, except, perhaps GOW and games that do not have carefully selected skill trees with a limited number of possible outcomes that are viable.
One has to look no further than chess to see how computers can rock humans. Or the new robot in Japan that will win every single time in rock paper scissors because it can process what the human hand is doing at such a rapid level that it can figure out what the human is doing and make the correct gesture to win.
But, frankly, humans are a lot more fun to play against.
Originally posted by Rinna I'd be truly happy if they forever separated the two camps. I'm not a pvper, I won't ever be a pvper... how bout just let me enjoy my game my way and keep pvp over there. Arenas or instanced areas or separate games are better than open world pvp that alienates non pvpers. Or give me an option in open world to Never Ever Ever EVER flag up or autoflag.
People who don't pvp telling the rest of us what pvp is, thats rich.
Did you ever consider it was people like you who get emotional over your toon getting fake killed in a multi player game, VS other people and then expect to be left alone like its a single player game might be ruining the game for everyone else? When did this behavior ever become normal. Instanced and Arena areas are not pvp thats a mini game and that is why these bubblegum hand holding no bullying games flop. No one who is really serious about pvp world or structured plays GW2 which is probably why most of the people still playing it just collect cosmetics.
I mean to be blunt just because you are a chicken shit doesn't mean they have to code it in the game and ruin the fun of it for everyone else. Maybe grow a nutsack and participate, stop being such a crybaby and compete. Christ can you imagine how boring EVE online would be if it were JUST farming ore off rocks and chatting AFK, I mean when will cowards understand that coding a game around you not having any spine is going to be the most boring game ever made. I mean have you played GW2 they couldnt make a more boring POS, I can already tell you what the POS games will be because of the carebear crybaby pvp systems they implemented. Elder Scrolls is going to be carebear questfest with nothing to do.
I think Faelson makes a lot of good points as to why the PvP players are generally better off in their own games. The rest of us certainly would not want to ruin his, or any other PvP players games. I mean cmon guys lets face it!! Without our nutsacks, we are not even worthy to shine their swords!
We all have different expectations of what we want from a game. Many people enjoy different styles of gameplay, and are happy to try different types. Some like a little PvP now and then, some want nothing to do with it. So we need a few games in the middle for those players that like to try different things . But we also need games at both ends of the spectrum too. Unfortunately the spectrum end that Faelson refers to and I believe is a member of, is lacking and also proving to be a hard lot to please. Some attempts have been made but nothing seems to catch hold. Meanwhile the carebear end of the spectrum is doing quite nicely.
Faleson I think you have to ask yourself why that is, and why the games you would like to see are not happening. Maybe if you were a little more constructive about it and not just throwing the blame around, people might start to listen to the hardcores concerns a little more. And I am all for it because, frankly, I do not belong in the same game with you. Respectfully.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Originally posted by Rinna I'd be truly happy if they forever separated the two camps. I'm not a pvper, I won't ever be a pvper... how bout just let me enjoy my game my way and keep pvp over there. Arenas or instanced areas or separate games are better than open world pvp that alienates non pvpers. Or give me an option in open world to Never Ever Ever EVER flag up or autoflag.
People who don't pvp telling the rest of us what pvp is, thats rich.
Did you ever consider it was people like you who get emotional over your toon getting fake killed in a multi player game, VS other people and then expect to be left alone like its a single player game might be ruining the game for everyone else? When did this behavior ever become normal. Instanced and Arena areas are not pvp thats a mini game and that is why these bubblegum hand holding no bullying games flop. No one who is really serious about pvp world or structured plays GW2 which is probably why most of the people still playing it just collect cosmetics.
I mean to be blunt just because you are a chicken shit doesn't mean they have to code it in the game and ruin the fun of it for everyone else. Maybe grow a nutsack and participate, stop being such a crybaby and compete. Christ can you imagine how boring EVE online would be if it were JUST farming ore off rocks and chatting AFK, I mean when will cowards understand that coding a game around you not having any spine is going to be the most boring game ever made. I mean have you played GW2 they couldnt make a more boring POS, I can already tell you what the POS games will be because of the carebear crybaby pvp systems they implemented. Elder Scrolls is going to be carebear questfest with nothing to do.
I think Faelson makes a lot of good points as to why the PvP players are generally better off in their own games. The rest of us certainly would not want to ruin his, or any other PvP players games. I mean cmon guys lets face it!! Without our nutsacks, we are not even worthy to shine their swords!
We all have different expectations of what we want from a game. Many people enjoy different styles of gameplay, and are happy to try different types. Some like a little PvP now and then, some want nothing to do with it. So we need a few games in the middle for those players that like to try different things . But we also need games at both ends of the spectrum too. Unfortunately the spectrum end that Faelson refers to and I believe is a member of, is lacking and also proving to be a hard lot to please. Some attempts have been made but nothing seems to catch hold. Meanwhile the carebear end of the spectrum is doing quite nicely.
Faleson I think you have to ask yourself why that is, and why the games you would like to see are not happening. Maybe if you were a little more constructive about it and not just throwing the blame around, people might start to listen to the hardcores concerns a little more. And I am all for it because, frankly, I do not belong in the same game with you. Respectfully.
Ultima Online, Ashercons Call, EVE online, to a lesser extent AOC, L2, RIFT. PvPers are not asking the PVE wood chopping raid hub camping crowd to go away, frankly I love killing them while they try to avoid me. But the gods honest truth is this without us in your game whatever mmorpg is happens to be it will lack any credibility. But I promise you wont find any top mmorpgs with no PVP in them what you will find is borefest wastelands with mindless herds of people running around looking for things to do, like GW2.
Personally any mmo that does not have PVP in it should be classified as a talker because all you are doing is using an overpriced chat room.
Theres really no catch all for these two things to work together in tandem to make one game everyone will love. I want more challenging general PvE content, and also more diverse PvP content... .... ..... .... ..... and I don't want it to be expensive either.
You should design one then.
I don't design MMOs. That doesn't mean that I do not have the ability or capacity to develop my own games. I am currently working in the mobile development field so who knows.... but no, an MMO would take too much work and way too many people for someone like me to honestly address. A MOG maybe..
Comments
It's simple. People play different games for different reasons and expect different experiences out of them. There is nothing good, bad, superior, inferior, etc about any of those choices. We're all just playing games for our own entertainment, period. Forcing PvP onto people who want only to PvE is a loosing proposition. It's like an amusment park forcing people who only want to go on the rides to smash thier thumbs with a hammer before each ride. It's a nonsense proposition for an entertainment product to force people into a situation they simply do not enjoy.
That's not to say that open world PvP games don't have a place - they do. They just shouldn't expect to draw in too many players who are solely interested in PvE....and players that choose that style of game shouldn't expect to avoid PvP. That's all fine. What's most important is for a game to honestly and clearly set the players expectations up front about what sort of experience they are going to get....and for the player to be clear and honest with themselves about what they want and not complain when a game delivers exactly what it said up front it would.
Unfortunately there is a small category of people who aren't interested in PvP at all, rather they want PvV (Player vs Victem) . They want situations setup where they get to prey on people who aren't interested, equiped or skilled to do PvP....they want easy kills for proffit. Then they get frustrated and complain when, shockingly, very few people sign up in those games to play thier full time victems. Should it really surprise any sane person that few people want to sign up for games to play full-time victems?
The only lesson here is that people have different tastes and expectations in entertainment. That's perfectly great....just don't expect people to do something that don't enjoy for entertainment.
Personaly I enjoy lots of different types of PvP - Turn Based and RTS Wargames, FPS, Sports, Boardgames, etc. I mostly don't enjoy PvP in MMO's because I find few do it well (aside from Planetside and WWII Online which play much closer to FPS games)...and it's not generaly what I look for out of an MMO. I also enjoy PvE quite a bit. It depends upon my mood....but I certainly don't want to experience one thing when I'm looking for something else entirely.
Well said....Its actually hard to find a pure PVE game that does not have some form of PVP aded often as an afterthought.....I think too often they try to appeal to too broad of a range of gamer......ALso I still dont think I've ever seen a PVP game done right....Its either too hardcore (eve, Darkfall, Mortal Online) or theres no point to it (wow, eq, lotro)......
You get chest thumping in pve games too. What about all the people in wow sitting in cities showing off their epics.
Anyway I think we need a variety of games
We need some 50/50 games like daoc and gw1 & 2
We need some mostly pve games like wow, tsw & rift (although we have more than enough of these games already)
We need mostly pvp games like eve and DF
We need only pvp games like planetside 2
We need only pve games, sorry can't think of any.
Why fight in PvE then, just for the loot?
If the combat mechanics are pretty stellar gamers will fight for fun. PvP players look for a more challenging type of fight than PvE. Most PvE is designed to be beaten (back in the 80's some of it wasn't
). Against a human, it's nothing like that.
It's why chess players or any sports enthusiast likes to play against humans than machines. PvE is good at training you at the mechanics, PvP is where the challenge is.
PvP players don't play for the carrot.
I'm not that competitive but I do like the challenge PvP gives me in regard to combat. If I enjoy the combat mechanics, I'll stay and be social and engage in PvE too.
A well built bot will triumph in PVP over a player every single day. Their reaction time is quicker. They do not let human emotion affect their play. They are never tired. Outside problems do not influence how they play. This is, assuming, that the game play is fairly static and does not allow for a lot of changing of skills. Most games are this way, except, perhaps GOW and games that do not have carefully selected skill trees with a limited number of possible outcomes that are viable.
One has to look no further than chess to see how computers can rock humans. Or the new robot in Japan that will win every single time in rock paper scissors because it can process what the human hand is doing at such a rapid level that it can figure out what the human is doing and make the correct gesture to win.
But, frankly, humans are a lot more fun to play against.
I think Faelson makes a lot of good points as to why the PvP players are generally better off in their own games. The rest of us certainly would not want to ruin his, or any other PvP players games. I mean cmon guys lets face it!! Without our nutsacks, we are not even worthy to shine their swords!
We all have different expectations of what we want from a game. Many people enjoy different styles of gameplay, and are happy to try different types. Some like a little PvP now and then, some want nothing to do with it. So we need a few games in the middle for those players that like to try different things . But we also need games at both ends of the spectrum too. Unfortunately the spectrum end that Faelson refers to and I believe is a member of, is lacking and also proving to be a hard lot to please. Some attempts have been made but nothing seems to catch hold. Meanwhile the carebear end of the spectrum is doing quite nicely.
Faleson I think you have to ask yourself why that is, and why the games you would like to see are not happening. Maybe if you were a little more constructive about it and not just throwing the blame around, people might start to listen to the hardcores concerns a little more. And I am all for it because, frankly, I do not belong in the same game with you. Respectfully.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Ultima Online, Ashercons Call, EVE online, to a lesser extent AOC, L2, RIFT. PvPers are not asking the PVE wood chopping raid hub camping crowd to go away, frankly I love killing them while they try to avoid me. But the gods honest truth is this without us in your game whatever mmorpg is happens to be it will lack any credibility. But I promise you wont find any top mmorpgs with no PVP in them what you will find is borefest wastelands with mindless herds of people running around looking for things to do, like GW2.
Personally any mmo that does not have PVP in it should be classified as a talker because all you are doing is using an overpriced chat room.
I don't design MMOs. That doesn't mean that I do not have the ability or capacity to develop my own games. I am currently working in the mobile development field so who knows.... but no, an MMO would take too much work and way too many people for someone like me to honestly address. A MOG maybe..