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Time and Money: how we are robbed and ruined by MMO companies

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  • NotimeforbsNotimeforbs Memphis, TNPosts: 346Member Common

    So, pretty much every response to this topic has avoided addressing what the OP was actually talking about.  Instead, responders chose to pass judgement on a lifestyle he chooses to live - as if his choice invalidates his opinion on this matter - which it does not.  So, I'm going to address the points the OP actually brought to the table.

    1.  MMO's are no longer about gameplay built around fun and gamer interest.  They are about gameplay built around the business model.  If you notice, in the past 10 years... nothing about the MMO gameplay has changed a single iota.  What has changed, and has had many iterations, is the business model.  Suddenly, a game is considered successful because of the business model - not because it is fun and interesting.

    2.  Notice: we've been playing WoW's MMO gameplay model in every game since it released in 2004.  Not a single AAA MMO has surfaced that has been even remotely different since then.  And, we've seen the trend... these games DO NOT survive on a monthly subscription model.  Why?  Because these copy-cat games do not provide a unique enough experience to warrant such a definitive investment from the consumers.  WE decided that as a consumer base.  WE decided these games weren't worth the subscription.  WE decided that, because WE subconsciously knew we were playing the same game with a different art direction.  And... we weren't going to pay for it.  We made a good decision on this.  We were right to demand change.  Unfortunately, we were taken advantage of in the process.

    3.  So, like any business, the corporations had to adapt according to our demands.  Not by investing money into new and different design technologies, which is costly and time consuming, but by changing the way they charge for access to their product.  So instead of changing the product, they simply changed the way in which they create revenue.  This way, they can continue to create the same product, and still make the same amount of money (if not more.)  And the more they continue to create the same product, the cheaper it costs them to make it.  Why?  Because the design technology already exists from the previous game.  They simply use the pre-existing design, paste it as a base for the new game, and then add one or two more gimmicks.  This is exactly how a game like SWTOR can have so much recorded Voice work in a standard MMO experience for roughly the same amount of money it costs to make any other AAA MMO.  How did they do this?  The game was already built: it was built when they made Warhammer.  All of the money went into the writing, VA's, and art assets - the new gimmicks.

    4.  The current Free-To-Play business model is essentially a slot machine system where the house fixes the odds of the player obtaining their desired outcome.  That's all it is - and it is shoe-horned into every crevice they can shove it.  Where to put this slot-machine mechanic into the game is what most of the time spent designing the game is spent on.  And by this nature, slot machines cater to those who can afford to play them.  And whether you win or lose big, just like any respectable casino, they take care of the big spenders by comping them free meals at the luxury buffet or free nights in the hotel.  This is essentially correlates into the idea that these games are actually "Pay-To-Win" or at least, "Pay-To-Be-More-Awesome-Than-Those-Who-Don't-Pay."  This is also where you, as a poor artist with minimal funds, start to feel left out.  You feel left out... because you ARE left out... by design.

    5.  The problem here isn't that these guys provide the consumer with this service... the problem is that they basically lie about their intentions.  They tell you everything you want to hear, lie about everything, and you end up being tricked into spending money on something you didn't exactly agree to.  And because of overly-ridiculous EULA's... there's nothing you can do about it.  At least in a Casino, you go into it knowing what to expect.  No one calls out MMO's studios on this... and they should.  At least, that is MY personal grief with the system.

    6.  The grind and carrot-on-a-stick is there to increase the probability that you will spend more money on the slot machine.  It has nothing to do with fun.  That's all there is to that.

    7.  My advice is to stop playing MMO's until one comes out that proves to provide a genuinely unique experience.  Start playing some single player games.  Steam puts them on sale every week, and they are fantastic.  I bought both Batman Arkham games for $10 a piece on sale (both GOTY Editions.)  I got Castlevania: Lords of Shadow for $10 on sale.  You can get almost any game released within the past year or two for stupid cheap during the summer and winter sales.  And the best part is, it is beyond stupid  to fathom how far the SP game experience has left the MMO space behind in terms of every aspect of gaming quality, especially when it comes to innovative new experiences on an aging genre.

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    That is advice.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Notimeforbs

    So, pretty much every response to this topic has avoided addressing what the OP was actually talking about.  Instead, responders chose to pass judgement on a lifestyle he chooses to live - as if his choice invalidates his opinion on this matter - which it does not.  So, I'm going to address the points the OP actually brought to the table.

    1.  MMO's are no longer about gameplay built around fun and gamer interest.  They are about gameplay built around the business model.  If you notice, in the past 10 years... nothing about the MMO gameplay has changed a single iota.  What has changed, and has had many iterations, is the business model.  Suddenly, a game is considered successful because of the business model - not because it is fun and interesting.

     

    Games that are made on those same 4 or 5 ml budget budgets as they were back in the good old days, are focused more on " fun" than making huge amounts of money. I think it's pretty naive to think a company is going to invest 100+ mil into something just because they love games and want to make you happy. When it's that amount of money, it a business not a game.

    If this is really what you're looking for in an mmo stop looking at the AAA mmos and play those other ones. Of course they're not going to have all the features or graphics but if you're not willing to pay for all that....

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member

    Games are not made with fun in mind. That's the point.

    WTF are you playing them for? Fun isn't subjective in this case.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • NotimeforbsNotimeforbs Memphis, TNPosts: 346Member Common
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Notimeforbs

    So, pretty much every response to this topic has avoided addressing what the OP was actually talking about.  Instead, responders chose to pass judgement on a lifestyle he chooses to live - as if his choice invalidates his opinion on this matter - which it does not.  So, I'm going to address the points the OP actually brought to the table.

    1.  MMO's are no longer about gameplay built around fun and gamer interest.  They are about gameplay built around the business model.  If you notice, in the past 10 years... nothing about the MMO gameplay has changed a single iota.  What has changed, and has had many iterations, is the business model.  Suddenly, a game is considered successful because of the business model - not because it is fun and interesting.

     

    Games that are made on those same 4 or 5 ml budget budgets as they were back in the good old days, are focused more on " fun" than making huge amounts of money. I think it's pretty naive to think a company is going to invest 100+ mil into something just because they love games and want to make you happy. When it's that amount of money, it a business not a game.

    If this is really what you're looking for in an mmo stop looking at the AAA mmos and play those other ones. Of course they're not going to have all the features or graphics but if you're not willing to pay for all that....

    I'm beginning to think no one in this thread besides me is capable of not making assumptions of other people.  Then again... maybe I just did.  At least my assumption has merit.

    At any rate - nothing about what I said even remotely had anything to do with what I am looking for in an MMO,  You're reading into this as if it were my mindset on how things were.  No.  This is not my mindset.  This is the mindset of an industrial machine.

    They aren't looking to design a game based on the subjective notions of what "fun" actually means and iterates into.  They leave that BS propaganda to the Marketing department.  They are designing these games based on how they can profit from every aspect of gameplay.  If there is a conceivable way to profit from an element of gameplay, or design said element in such a way that it at least amplifies the desire for the consumer to spend money on some other aspect.... then that is the soul driving force behind that design.

    And besides that... you're missing the point to everything I wrote.  They aren't even wasting time designing the game.  The game has already been designed.  They only thing they do is create ways to make money off of that existing design.

    This has nothing to do with what I personally like or dislike or what I am looking for.  This is purely an unbiased objective look at how the system works and why it makes the OP feel the way he feels when he plays these games.

    Why are you turning something that has nothing to do with me into an issue about me?

     

  • kkarrabbasskkarrabbass Palm Springs, CAPosts: 152Member
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by Encephalitis

    The mmorpg forum is like one bad movie, stuck on repeat, i mean honestly. The OP's post, albeit slightly different, has gone from "why do people keep negatively reinforcing bad behavior by endorsing it with money" to "jesus OP, quit being poor. get more jobs so you can get more money, so you too can be rich".

    Another thread on here is "SOE will hand select player created content, and sell it to other players". peoples responses? "Boy i sure am happy SOE is making money. We should all be so happy that SOE has found a way to monetize the game so well. Also, quit bitching about only receiving 40% of the money. You're lucky you even get anything, it IS their game after all"

    I'm actually starting to wonder if MMORPG isn't just a website that is a secretly veiled hangout for high-income game companys, with as much fanboying/girling as some things get.

     

    That aside, OP, it is what it is. You either spend a whole bunch to keep up or progress or participate, or you spend a few thousand hours playing it. Like this website's current buzzword phrase, "why would a company be created if not to farm money". I Feel for ya, OP, but it is what it is.

    I think you should note that the "don't be poor" posts are meant to infer that maybe your "free" game isn't exactly "free" after all. Now that you have realized that, find a good 15 a month game because it's what fits your budget and it used to be the norm. You could work multiple jobs to get more stuff or just change games.

    It seems like from their follow-up posts that this isn't about every MMO being greedy, it's this specific game that the OP doesn't want to change from its previous ways. They aren't saying they dislike the overcharging in every game, just the one that affected them personally because it's one they played previously by mentioning the titles. Consider it an awakening.

    I think though that what they are complaining about people have said when free to play became pay to get farther. It is a general complaint, people just aren't viewing it that way. Us general complainers about free games said all this would happen that people would be dug and dug deeper until the satiation point is reached but everyone claimed the games wouldn't do that. We had our awakening without it affecting a game we were playing. We simply saw this as the only possible reason to open the ceiling on payment... to increase it.

    Consider this round 1. If this works for this game... others will see it and repeat it if they have a strong enough IP. If we've learned anything from free games it's that they all follow the ways to make more profit and are watching each other. There is no other reason that they all think cosmetic is acceptable to pay for even with a sub other than players state it along with most games doing it at the least. They want to know how much they can get out of you before you break. They are trying to figure out how much more to charge over 15 a month. They are writing their own paycheck and willing to put as many zeros on it as players allow them to add.

     

     

    I have already left this thread, but…

    Dear greenreen!

    I want to focus only on one of your statements.

    I think it is clear for almost everyone who actually looked at game history, that so-called F2P model of charging players for playing was introduced not spontaneously, or according to grand plan of financial geniuses, but to save some games from financial fiasco, when they start to lose their players base.

    It is much later some new games start to adopt this model from very beginning not even pretending that they might survive with P2P even for short period of time.

    It is all very much forgotten now especially by players who never really were interested in looking in things roots. So, now you are telling me that F2P (or how some people like to call it P2W, and there is no reason to make your own name “pay to get farther” for it) model of charging people is something new and progressive. It is like to say that accepting only donations is better way to do business.

    Lately some games are trying to use hybrid model. I however doubt it will bring significantly more money than P2P.

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 8,063Member
    Originally posted by Notimeforbs

    So, pretty much every response to this topic has avoided addressing what the OP was actually talking about.  Instead, responders chose to pass judgement on a lifestyle he chooses to live - as if his choice invalidates his opinion on this matter - which it does not.  So, I'm going to address the points the OP actually brought to the table.

    1.  MMO's

    SNIP***

     

    Well said, and well thought through post. I had wished MMOs would evolve more as true adventures, someday they would feel almost like a PnP adventure story.

    Alas the reality is cheap gimmicks, token grind which is cheap to create, and then letting people pay for that on every step. I am a bit let down by people here, that so few are critical towards the changes going on; so many customers are manipulated and don't even see that.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Notimeforbs
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Notimeforbs

    So, pretty much every response to this topic has avoided addressing what the OP was actually talking about.  Instead, responders chose to pass judgement on a lifestyle he chooses to live - as if his choice invalidates his opinion on this matter - which it does not.  So, I'm going to address the points the OP actually brought to the table.

    1.  MMO's are no longer about gameplay built around fun and gamer interest.  They are about gameplay built around the business model.  If you notice, in the past 10 years... nothing about the MMO gameplay has changed a single iota.  What has changed, and has had many iterations, is the business model.  Suddenly, a game is considered successful because of the business model - not because it is fun and interesting.

     

    Games that are made on those same 4 or 5 ml budget budgets as they were back in the good old days, are focused more on " fun" than making huge amounts of money. I think it's pretty naive to think a company is going to invest 100+ mil into something just because they love games and want to make you happy. When it's that amount of money, it a business not a game.

    If this is really what you're looking for in an mmo stop looking at the AAA mmos and play those other ones. Of course they're not going to have all the features or graphics but if you're not willing to pay for all that....

    I'm beginning to think no one in this thread besides me is capable of not making assumptions of other people.  Then again... maybe I just did.  At least my assumption has merit.

    At any rate - nothing about what I said even remotely had anything to do with what I am looking for in an MMO,  You're reading into this as if it were my mindset on how things were.  No.  This is not my mindset.  This is the mindset of an industrial machine.

    They aren't looking to design a game based on the subjective notions of what "fun" actually means and iterates into.  They leave that BS propaganda to the Marketing department.  They are designing these games based on how they can profit from every aspect of gameplay.  If there is a conceivable way to profit from an element of gameplay, or design said element in such a way that it at least amplifies the desire for the consumer to spend money on some other aspect.... then that is the soul driving force behind that design.

    And besides that... you're missing the point to everything I wrote.  They aren't even wasting time designing the game.  The game has already been designed.  They only thing they do is create ways to make money off of that existing design.

    This has nothing to do with what I personally like or dislike or what I am looking for.  This is purely an unbiased objective look at how the system works and why it makes the OP feel the way he feels when he plays these games.

    Why are you turning something that has nothing to do with me into an issue about me?

     

    yeah sorry. I was only really talking about your point one and even though I did say you it really wasn't about you. I was poor choices of words. 

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    I completely agree with you Elikal. Unfortunately these games aren't for the gamers anymore. They're only to be cash grabs. Companies have quite literally said fuck the gamers over the past few years and it's only getting worse.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • NotimeforbsNotimeforbs Memphis, TNPosts: 346Member Common
    Originally posted by FinalFikus

    Games are not made with fun in mind. That's the point.

    WTF are you playing them for? Fun isn't subjective in this case.

    Your problem with comprehension is due to the fact that you aren't thinking like a business person; you're thinking like a consumer.  And despite what you want to believe... you, even as a paying customer, control absolutely nothing.

    From a business standpoint - "fun" is an equation; a mystery.  A mystery which has already been solved.  Fun = WoW.  To a business minded person, this is true because WoW = Money, and Money = Success.  Success is the goal.

    So for a business minded person, all they have to do is recreate the WoW experience.  They've done this for 10 years.

    Problem: "They gamers aren't biting.  What gives?"

    To the business minded person, the idea that WoW does not = Money doesn't make sense, because as we've seen... WoW does indeed = Money.  Except WoW has not ='ed Money since the very first time player's experienced it.  What's the problem?

    There is no problem.  WoW still = Money.  They just have to change the way Money is obtained.  So, they look at other successful business models that continue to provide the same experience while continuing to make Money.

    Enter Casinos.  Slot Machines = Money.  Therefore, WoW = Slot Machines.

    Enter Micro-transactions.

     

    Look, I wish I could tell you that these games are designed with your best interest of having "fun" in mind.  But... your reaction to what is fun is purely subjective.  At the base of it all... the design has nothing to do with YOU.  It has to do with the probability of you reacting a certain way to specific patterns of activity in your brain.  You aren't having fun so much as you are being tricked into believing that you are having fun.  Meanwhile, all that is actually happening is you are doing the same thing over and over and over again, expecting a new and different result from the previous trial.  This is not fun... this is insanity.  The trick is to periodically give you certain minor "wins" so that you think you are making progress.  You actually aren't.

    All of this Micro-transaction crap is based on the same science - and it is all psychological.

     

    Here, read this.  it will explain it in a bit more detail.

    http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/09/12/how-microtransactions-are-bad-for-gaming.aspx

    http://www.debugdesign.com/2013/05/19/the-problem-with-free-to-play-games/

     

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kkarrabbass
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by Encephalitis

    The mmorpg forum is like one bad movie, stuck on repeat, i mean honestly. The OP's post, albeit slightly different, has gone from "why do people keep negatively reinforcing bad behavior by endorsing it with money" to "jesus OP, quit being poor. get more jobs so you can get more money, so you too can be rich".

    Another thread on here is "SOE will hand select player created content, and sell it to other players". peoples responses? "Boy i sure am happy SOE is making money. We should all be so happy that SOE has found a way to monetize the game so well. Also, quit bitching about only receiving 40% of the money. You're lucky you even get anything, it IS their game after all"

    I'm actually starting to wonder if MMORPG isn't just a website that is a secretly veiled hangout for high-income game companys, with as much fanboying/girling as some things get.

     

    That aside, OP, it is what it is. You either spend a whole bunch to keep up or progress or participate, or you spend a few thousand hours playing it. Like this website's current buzzword phrase, "why would a company be created if not to farm money". I Feel for ya, OP, but it is what it is.

    I think you should note that the "don't be poor" posts are meant to infer that maybe your "free" game isn't exactly "free" after all. Now that you have realized that, find a good 15 a month game because it's what fits your budget and it used to be the norm. You could work multiple jobs to get more stuff or just change games.

    It seems like from their follow-up posts that this isn't about every MMO being greedy, it's this specific game that the OP doesn't want to change from its previous ways. They aren't saying they dislike the overcharging in every game, just the one that affected them personally because it's one they played previously by mentioning the titles. Consider it an awakening.

    I think though that what they are complaining about people have said when free to play became pay to get farther. It is a general complaint, people just aren't viewing it that way. Us general complainers about free games said all this would happen that people would be dug and dug deeper until the satiation point is reached but everyone claimed the games wouldn't do that. We had our awakening without it affecting a game we were playing. We simply saw this as the only possible reason to open the ceiling on payment... to increase it.

    Consider this round 1. If this works for this game... others will see it and repeat it if they have a strong enough IP. If we've learned anything from free games it's that they all follow the ways to make more profit and are watching each other. There is no other reason that they all think cosmetic is acceptable to pay for even with a sub other than players state it along with most games doing it at the least. They want to know how much they can get out of you before you break. They are trying to figure out how much more to charge over 15 a month. They are writing their own paycheck and willing to put as many zeros on it as players allow them to add.

     

     

    I have already left this thread, but…

    Dear greenreen!

    I want to focus only on one of your statements.

    I think it is clear for almost everyone who actually looked at game history, that so-called F2P model of charging players for playing was introduced not spontaneously, or according to grand plan of financial geniuses, but to save some game from financial fiasco, when they start to lose their players base.

    It is much later some new games start to adopt this model from very beginning not even pretending that they might survive with P2P even for short period of time.

    It is all very much forgotten now especially by players who never really were interested in looking in things roots. So, now you are telling me that F2P (or how some people like to call it P2W, and there is no reason to make your own name “pay to get farther” for it) model of charging people is something new and progressive. It is like to say that accepting only donations is better way to do business.

    Nope, I don't see it that way. I don't recall games failing and using free to play for altruistic reasons.

    Games that come to mind were these:

    Everquest was free to play if you purchased expansions, that's what the guy at Best Buy said to me lol I researched once to get the game but didn't like that idea of constantly purchasing.

    Guild Wars was free to play I was told but didn't play it.

    The only one that I recall saying they had money problems was Dungeons and Dragons but you hear two stories to it.

    When I played LOTRO they were asking for 200 for lifetime subs and that money could have been used to support D&D because they had that IP too. Now, D&D did make their finances improve once going free but I believe that they were given a boost from the LOTRO lifetime subs until they could hold out for people to give in and pay once the right items were put into shops. They had many iterations of their goods for sale. I was reading about it while I was playing LOTRO.

    Because both LOTRO and D&D are just about the strongest intellectual properties in the genre, they had constant supporters no matter their cost of entry. They were never going to lose some core fans because of their IP so they had the ability to futz around with the numbers until they got something working. Buuuuut not being publicly traded they didn't have to release financial reports quarterly so instead they released articles about the success they gained from going Free to Play with no mention of the box sales for LOTRO or the lifetime subs. That could be swept under the carpet and all the money could be claimed to be from the free game.  We all saw tons of articles about the success of LOTRO going free after seeing it work for D&D, after of course they had suckered all those lifetime sub fees off their players to fund their testing. Once they were comfortable that the hype was in place and the people would accept the change and prosthelytize that there were free games to play from worthwhile IPs then the other games started following. After all, they had seen all the reports saying that the game was ever so worth the payment model switch .

    You tell me... why did a company that was not publicly traded release information about the money they had made. Why would they tell their competitors how to get that money unless there was a hope and plan for the entire scene to change. And why would a company that held onto the two strongest IPs in the industry tell you how to do it. Simple, they wanted you to do exactly what they were doing because they know that your IP would always be less value than theirs with the same product. They wanted to keep themselves at the top by showing you the rainbow and the pot of gold at the end of it that you were overlooking. I'm not talking about conspiracy behind the scenes, just something that hit at the right time. People were out of work and were ecstatic to not have to give up their hobby and were happy to convert to free gameplay. Go back and read the Indeed forums about when people started losing jobs heavily and when we had some of the worse unemployment rates, it just all fit together like a puzzle. People got excited about free games without thinking of the future and how those games would have to make money. Either they took it from someone else to give it to you and you were subsidized or they tool more and more away from you until you found it too much of a burden to not pay or they guilted you about their cost of development and told you that paying was supporting the entire nation of gaming as a whole (flag waving in it's truest form, be patriotic, support your game and give more, we need it to give you more content).

    That's what I remember. After that all you saw were free games with a few sub games straggling in then going free if they couldn't get enough bodies in the door. See, they were only offering the same grind as the last game without innovation (as the other poster mentioned) and they didn't have those strong IPs so why should someone join those games when WOW still had all its population and polish that it was known for. Their product was sub-par but they wanted to charge the same. Games that started out sub since are now changing because they think there is money to be made that they are missing out on. That's the pay to get farther group or the ones that release free only to put the real game worthy of playing behind the sub price and they call themselves a hybrid but market themselves as free. It absolutely is paying to remove the shackles or pain and they program that in intentionally.

    Too bad a sub to a hybrid doesn't dissolve the cash shop... it's still willing to take any extra cash you have. In fact, I think personally that selling cosmetic items is the best thing they can sell and people expect it. They can spend time making things extra pretty for textures and while people claim women are obsessed with clothing, plenty of men seem to be teased into buying pretty things too. You've then got a core set of gamers who say forget cosmetics, I can control myself and won't buy them, leave them in. All that happens though is that others are tempted. We wouldn't have as many clothing stores as we have on the planet if clothes didn't sell to both men and women. There are few women only retailers. Let's not even ponder the men who want to be women and the reverse. Transgendered people seem to be all the rage, they may find their only outlet and release by being another gender in a video game if they can't afford the expensive surgery or don't want to out themselves publicly.

    How is your memory different of what happened?

  • EncephalitisEncephalitis anchorage, AKPosts: 75Member
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    I completely agree with you Elikal. Unfortunately these games aren't for the gamers anymore. They're only to be cash grabs. Companies have quite literally said fuck the gamers over the past few years and it's only getting worse.

    The sad truth ends up being, who is at fault for things becoming like this. The companys that kept pushing the boundaries to this level of absurdity? Or the customers who kept on chasing the carrot stick until things got this far.

    It's the chicken and the egg dillema, but for gamers.

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Encephalitis
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    I completely agree with you Elikal. Unfortunately these games aren't for the gamers anymore. They're only to be cash grabs. Companies have quite literally said fuck the gamers over the past few years and it's only getting worse.

    The sad truth ends up being, who is at fault for things becoming like this. The companys that kept pushing the boundaries to this level of absurdity? Or the customers who kept on chasing the carrot stick until things got this far.

    It's the chicken and the egg dillema, but for gamers.

    Quite true, it has degraded so much. It'll have to be the death of gaming for the major issues to leave the industry. People say, "speak with your wallets." unfortunately it's too late for that. Gaming has blown up too large for companies to care about the customer(s) who refuse to buy their product.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Encephalitis
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    I completely agree with you Elikal. Unfortunately these games aren't for the gamers anymore. They're only to be cash grabs. Companies have quite literally said fuck the gamers over the past few years and it's only getting worse.

    The sad truth ends up being, who is at fault for things becoming like this. The companys that kept pushing the boundaries to this level of absurdity? Or the customers who kept on chasing the carrot stick until things got this far.

    It's the chicken and the egg dillema, but for gamers.

    Quite true, it has degraded so much. It'll have to be the death of gaming for the major issues to leave the industry. People say, "speak with your wallets." unfortunately it's too late for that. Gaming has blown up too large for companies to care about the customer(s) who refuse to buy their product.

    Why would they care ? Not being sarcastic but you guys like to say the industry is failing and all games suck but if it's so large and has so many ppl that they don't listen to the ones quitting, that doesn't really add up does it ?

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Encephalitis
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    I completely agree with you Elikal. Unfortunately these games aren't for the gamers anymore. They're only to be cash grabs. Companies have quite literally said fuck the gamers over the past few years and it's only getting worse.

    The sad truth ends up being, who is at fault for things becoming like this. The companys that kept pushing the boundaries to this level of absurdity? Or the customers who kept on chasing the carrot stick until things got this far.

    It's the chicken and the egg dillema, but for gamers.

    Quite true, it has degraded so much. It'll have to be the death of gaming for the major issues to leave the industry. People say, "speak with your wallets." unfortunately it's too late for that. Gaming has blown up too large for companies to care about the customer(s) who refuse to buy their product.

    Why would they care ? Not being sarcastic but you guys like to say the industry is failing and all games suck but if it's so large and has so many ppl that they don't listen to the ones quitting, that doesn't really add up does it ?

     The industry isn't failing now. You're right it's booming, but how much crap will they release until it does fail? Are you saying that these games are actually that great? Does no one remember the gaming crash of the 80's? Really? 

      Just because you have millions of sheep for the slaughter (saps/suckers willing enough to pay for crap) doesn't mean it's good. 

     It's quite funny, every thread you post in it's always, "you all don't know what you're talking about these games are great!". Yeah, no they're not it's the same shit spray painted a different color. Go buy and play Call of Duty 33. Go pay for battlefield 24 they're such awesome games I heard they've repainted the models and added a new gun with a couple new maps!  You have nothing new to add to the table other than, "nuh uh".

    edit: sorry I counted wrong there's 33 Call of Duty titles... How do people buy so much of the same shit?

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • RinnaRinna Las Vegas, NVPosts: 388Member

    Developers are in it for the money.  Money makes the world go round.

    The indie developers are doing it for love of the game.

    I always end up spending more money in buy to win games like Neverwinter than I do in box + sub games like FFXIV.  I think free to play is a complete farce and I still /boggle at all the $200 pixel spider mounts I saw hopping around in Neverwinter the first couple weeks. 

    SOE has already built a reputation in their games as nickel and diming people.  Constantly holding out their hands for more money for the fun content.  Free Realms is anything but free.  EQ2 and Planetside let me sub fortunately rather than just cash shop alone and that's the only thing that kept me playing.  I agree that MMO's were a better place where everyone paid one price and started on the same equal playing ground and built their legacy from there.

    Companies should return to that, but they will follow the money trail.

    No bitchers.

  • EncephalitisEncephalitis anchorage, AKPosts: 75Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Encephalitis
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    I completely agree with you Elikal. Unfortunately these games aren't for the gamers anymore. They're only to be cash grabs. Companies have quite literally said fuck the gamers over the past few years and it's only getting worse.

    The sad truth ends up being, who is at fault for things becoming like this. The companys that kept pushing the boundaries to this level of absurdity? Or the customers who kept on chasing the carrot stick until things got this far.

    It's the chicken and the egg dillema, but for gamers.

    Quite true, it has degraded so much. It'll have to be the death of gaming for the major issues to leave the industry. People say, "speak with your wallets." unfortunately it's too late for that. Gaming has blown up too large for companies to care about the customer(s) who refuse to buy their product.

    Why would they care ? Not being sarcastic but you guys like to say the industry is failing and all games suck but if it's so large and has so many ppl that they don't listen to the ones quitting, that doesn't really add up does it ?

    As other posts in other threads (and entire threads themselves) have said, the industry isn't failing. The issue is casual players with larger incomes. A casual, by nature, works for a living and only gets a few hours a night/week to play a game. There are now more of them than hardcores/softcores, and their spending habits delegate how a game is designed. I'm not trying to solely blame one demographic of player, but if a single demographic controls an easy 2/3's of the genre's spending, then their ideals are going to be catered to a little more than anybody elses since...well...cash is king.

    I Spent some time trying to come up with a solid metaphor, but all it really boils down to is "speak with your wallet"....The only question is, how can your wallet get any attention if other peoples wallets have megaphones.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by DamonVile
     

    Why would they care ? Not being sarcastic but you guys like to say the industry is failing and all games suck but if it's so large and has so many ppl that they don't listen to the ones quitting, that doesn't really add up does it ?

     The industry isn't failing now. You're right it's booming, but how much crap will they release until it does fail? Are you saying that these games are actually that great? Does no one remember the gaming crash of the 80's? Really? 

      Just because you have millions of sheep for the slaughter (saps/suckers willing enough to pay for crap) doesn't mean it's good. 

     It's quite funny, every thread you post is, "you all don't know what you're talking about these games are great!". Yeah, no they're not it's the same shit spray painted a different color. Go buy and play Call of Duty 20. Go pay for battlefield 24 they're such awesome games I heard they've repainted the models and added a new gun with a couple new maps!  You have nothing new to add to the table other than, "nuh uh".

    I've never played call of duty or battlefield. Not sure where they even came from ? But...speaking of nothing new, oh look you're nerd raging about games again.

    Good chat.

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by DamonVile
     

    Why would they care ? Not being sarcastic but you guys like to say the industry is failing and all games suck but if it's so large and has so many ppl that they don't listen to the ones quitting, that doesn't really add up does it ?

     The industry isn't failing now. You're right it's booming, but how much crap will they release until it does fail? Are you saying that these games are actually that great? Does no one remember the gaming crash of the 80's? Really? 

      Just because you have millions of sheep for the slaughter (saps/suckers willing enough to pay for crap) doesn't mean it's good. 

     It's quite funny, every thread you post is, "you all don't know what you're talking about these games are great!". Yeah, no they're not it's the same shit spray painted a different color. Go buy and play Call of Duty 20. Go pay for battlefield 24 they're such awesome games I heard they've repainted the models and added a new gun with a couple new maps!  You have nothing new to add to the table other than, "nuh uh".

    I've never played call of duty or battlefield. Not sure where they even came from ? But...speaking of nothing new, oh look you're nerd raging about games again.

    Good chat.

     Would explain why you have nothing to say still lol. Add nothing constructive or informative to the conversation? Hit the back key and see  yourself out.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • spizzspizz BlackForrestPosts: 2,587Member
    Originally posted by Elikal

     

    You know I think we are just getting MADE addicted by companies. No, I am dead serioues.

     

    Of course companies try to find a way that you stick for longer with the game. Either paying a monthly sub, paying for ingame items from the ingame shop or whatever solution  is possible to monetize the game content. Grind is just a filler if they cant offer any other game content or good quests, they slow you down and prevent that you dont reach the maximum in a too short time or implement new content to grind your way to new ingame items. All planned that you buy stuff from the ingame shop i.e. XP potions or prolong your monthly subscription. Mmorpgs business model has a lot to do with psychology and subtle marketing techniques,  it is true that the business models are getting more and more naughty and underhand.

    I wonder that you recognize this so late......

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Encephalitis
    Originally posted by DamonVile
     

    Why would they care ? Not being sarcastic but you guys like to say the industry is failing and all games suck but if it's so large and has so many ppl that they don't listen to the ones quitting, that doesn't really add up does it ?

    As other posts in other threads (and entire threads themselves) have said, the industry isn't failing. The issue is casual players with larger incomes. A casual, by nature, works for a living and only gets a few hours a night/week to play a game. There are now more of them than hardcores/softcores, and their spending habits delegate how a game is designed. I'm not trying to solely blame one demographic of player, but if a single demographic controls an easy 2/3's of the genre's spending, then their ideals are going to be catered to a little more than anybody elses since...well...cash is king.

    I Spent some time trying to come up with a solid metaphor, but all it really boils down to is "speak with your wallet"....The only question is, how can your wallet get any attention if other peoples wallets have megaphones.

    ( first, thanks for the intelligent reply )

    That sort of comes down to what people where talking about earlier in the thread though doesn't it ? The huge budget games are going to go for the big money. You invest 100 million + you're not going to aim for 50k sub range ? But the same people ask for things like sandbox and open world pvp but refuse to give games like worm or other indi games a try because they aren't AAA titles with AAA features...even though you didn't have any of those things in EQ or SWG and they were still somehow great.

    That's not a failure in the industry to appeal to the right people, that's a failure of the player to be realistic about how much his interest group can really support. 

    Anyone that expects them to build it first and then you'll come play it...doesn't know how a business works.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by rnor6084
    If you let a game ruin you and bankrupt you then it is your fault. Period.

    I wonder how many gamers are beginning to experience health issues from years of sedentary and bad chair posture and carpal tunnel.

    And yep, those injuries are self-inflicted too.

    But I suppose if you can get a legal team working on spec, you could try to file a class-action on the same order as Fat vs McDonalds or LungRot vs Big Tobacco.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Encephalitis
    Originally posted by DamonVile
     

    Why would they care ? Not being sarcastic but you guys like to say the industry is failing and all games suck but if it's so large and has so many ppl that they don't listen to the ones quitting, that doesn't really add up does it ?

    As other posts in other threads (and entire threads themselves) have said, the industry isn't failing. The issue is casual players with larger incomes. A casual, by nature, works for a living and only gets a few hours a night/week to play a game. There are now more of them than hardcores/softcores, and their spending habits delegate how a game is designed. I'm not trying to solely blame one demographic of player, but if a single demographic controls an easy 2/3's of the genre's spending, then their ideals are going to be catered to a little more than anybody elses since...well...cash is king.

    I Spent some time trying to come up with a solid metaphor, but all it really boils down to is "speak with your wallet"....The only question is, how can your wallet get any attention if other peoples wallets have megaphones.

    ( first, thanks for the intelligent reply )

    That sort of comes down to what people where talking about earlier in the thread though doesn't it ? The huge budget games are going to go for the big money. You invest 100 million + you're not going to aim for 50k sub range ? But the same people ask for things like sandbox and open world pvp but refuse to give games like worm or other indi games a try because they aren't AAA titles with AAA features...even though you didn't have any of those things in EQ or SWG and they were still somehow great.

    That's not a failure in the industry to appeal to the right people, that's a failure of the player to be realistic about how much his interest group can really support. 

    Anyone that expects them to build it first and then you'll come play it...doesn't know how a business works.

     It's like a broken record, read up on the past DamonVile all this crap has been done before and it all leads to the same thing. 

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • MightykingMightyking CapellePosts: 233Member Uncommon

    @OP:

    I have read your original post and watched your video as well. Even though I'm one of those suckers who paid 100 bucks to get into Alpha, and therefore am somewhat responsible for encouraging the industry to keep on doing this (I'm sorry!), I do agree with what you said. I always liked my games to be P2P, and I have been a strong opponent of the F2P model. The arguments I have are somewhat comparable to the arguments you use, although I personally couldn't give a rat's tail about what I look in game.

    Developers should care enough about their games to provide a level playing field for all their players, and I acknowledge "looks" is one aspect of MMORPG's for players to stand out. A game to me stops being a game when players are no longer equal. (Ever tried going to a casino with an extra deck of cards up your sleeve? In F2P we have come to accept that you can buy extra decks).

    In defence of Landmark, I say the perks for paying are rather small, after closed beta there will be a full wipe of the data, after which open beta will probably allow you to play for free. The perks players currently get do not include castles, though :) I hope my money will be seen as an encouragement for SoE to make more games like landmark in the future (or other companies pick up on it), but I also hope they change their business model.

  • EncephalitisEncephalitis anchorage, AKPosts: 75Member

    Originally posted by DamonVile

    ( first, thanks for the intelligent reply )

    That sort of comes down to what people where talking about earlier in the thread though doesn't it ? The huge budget games are going to go for the big money. You invest 100 million + you're not going to aim for 50k sub range ? But the same people ask for things like sandbox and open world pvp but refuse to give games like worm or other indi games a try because they aren't AAA titles with AAA features...even though you didn't have any of those things in EQ or SWG and they were still somehow great.

    That's not a failure in the industry to appeal to the right people, that's a failure of the player to be realistic about how much his interest group can really support. 

    Anyone that expects them to build it first and then you'll come play it...doesn't know how a business works.

    Personally, i blame sandboxers and OWpvp'ers for their own pile of issues. Sandboxers want giant open worlds where they can do whatever they want, whenever they want, but get pissed off and leave at random. They remind me of a person who commissions a painting, and when its finished and delivered, they freak out about 1 color the artist used wherein they refuse to pay the artist for the work and proceed to badmouth said artist.

    OWpvp'ers kill off their own games. They usually aren't looking for extravagant worlds with beautiful scenery or anything majestic, but they ALWAYS perma-hunt newbs until nobody wants to play the game anymore. They then take to their respective forums, trying to figure out why the game is empty and how things could have gotten to that point.

    As for the AAA titles...I Feel ya. I would most likely be a piss poor game company CEO, because my idea for a game would be that "If you design a game that took 100m to create and did it correctly, it wouldn't be an issue to recoup the money spent"...But what do i know, I'm just a hopeless gamer. =/

    Originally posted by Icewhite

    I wonder how many gamers are beginning to experience health issues from years of sedentary and bad chair posture and carpal tunnel.

    *holds up hand*

     

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