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What is PVP? Really

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  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tissmogi
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Tissmogi

    PvP in MMORPGS is a cancer that needs to be removed.

    PVP in MMORPGS will always cause problems and is such a waste of development resources and the constant balancing and class nerf/buffing is just a pain in the ass.

    There is no need for PVP in MMORPGS. We have plenty PVP games for that. From Medieval to realistic warfare to SciFi, there are enough specialized PVP games. No need to bring that into MMORPGS.

    These games already do PVP way better than any MMORPG could. Look at the joke that is Darkfall:UW. It's complete crap compared to even the free PVP games or games like Chivalry. Those are a lot more fun than the tacked on PvP like in GW2 that suffers balance issues and boring zerg gameplay.

    It's obvious you don't care for PVP, and I agree that some MMOs have taken some poor approaches to it, but from my experience so far, I'm going to have to agree with you on the sweeping generalization. There are a lot of examples of PVP being a great part of the MMO in one form or another, often integral to the gameplay itself. Here are a few:

    • WOW's battlegrounds
    • DAoC's keep battles and frontiers
    • EVE Online's piracy and sovereignty
    • Ultima Online's guild wars
    • Guild Wars*
    • Puzzle Pirate's Blockades

    You personally may mot care for some of them or even all of them, but there's no denying that the players to whom that PVP content caters to find it an enjoyable and desirable part of their MMO experience.

    *Yes, yes... it's a CORPG. I just added to see how many morons will ignore the rest of the list and fixate on this one. 

    Oh, i never said they should not enjoy it. By all means, people can enjoy whatever they want.

    I am saying that it is stupid to cater to both. Do one or the other and do it right.

    All your examples are valid but they all could be much better if they left out the PvE or the PvP part.

    One or the other what? Pve or pvp? People who want pvp in an mmorpg don't necessarily just want it because they like fighting other players. It seems like your opinion is based entirely on mmo's that have "tacked on" pvp that isn't central to the game. What a lot of people want is a world that has a lot of simulation and interdependency between systems, including pvp. That can't be done in a "pvp game" like sc2, quake, LoL, etc.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,666Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tissmogi
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Tissmogi

    PvP in MMORPGS is a cancer that needs to be removed.

    PVP in MMORPGS will always cause problems and is such a waste of development resources and the constant balancing and class nerf/buffing is just a pain in the ass.

    There is no need for PVP in MMORPGS. We have plenty PVP games for that. From Medieval to realistic warfare to SciFi, there are enough specialized PVP games. No need to bring that into MMORPGS.

    These games already do PVP way better than any MMORPG could. Look at the joke that is Darkfall:UW. It's complete crap compared to even the free PVP games or games like Chivalry. Those are a lot more fun than the tacked on PvP like in GW2 that suffers balance issues and boring zerg gameplay.

    It's obvious you don't care for PVP, and I agree that some MMOs have taken some poor approaches to it, but from my experience so far, I'm going to have to agree with you on the sweeping generalization. There are a lot of examples of PVP being a great part of the MMO in one form or another, often integral to the gameplay itself. Here are a few:

    • WOW's battlegrounds
    • DAoC's keep battles and frontiers
    • EVE Online's piracy and sovereignty
    • Ultima Online's guild wars
    • Guild Wars*
    • Puzzle Pirate's Blockades

    You personally may mot care for some of them or even all of them, but there's no denying that the players to whom that PVP content caters to find it an enjoyable and desirable part of their MMO experience.

    *Yes, yes... it's a CORPG. I just added to see how many morons will ignore the rest of the list and fixate on this one. 

    Oh, i never said they should not enjoy it. By all means, people can enjoy whatever they want.

    I am saying that it is stupid to cater to both. Do one or the other and do it right.

    All your examples are valid but they all could be much better if they left out the PvE or the PvP part.

    I'm not so sure about that. WOW's battlegrounds seemed to be rather popular, and the fact that they were separate from the game world made them an entertaining diversion for many.

    Conversely, EVE's PvE, much like the PvE in several other sandbox-focused MMOs, fuels the PvP side and is an integral part of the core gameplay of EVE. Without people mining and manufacturing, an entire chunk of vital gameplay disappears. Likewise, without the PvP, the PvE content becomes comparatively meaningless. 

    Puzzle Pirate's Blockades are actually a brilliant approach, because territorial control isn't through conquest but through occupation, allowing PvE players to avoid the PVP if they want to but still retaining a meaningful tie between the two types of content.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • NinjaGazNinjaGaz MacclesfieldPosts: 53Member Common

    PvP and PK(er) are different things.

    PvP is a feature of a game - ie, it tells you that you can battle other players in the game.

    PK(er) is a type of a player categorised by his behaviour in game - ie, someone who goes around with the aim of killing other players.

    Someone who kills another player because they were attacked is not a PKer. A PKer actively hunts down people who are often weaker than they are or in a position of vulnerability so that they can kill them. This makes them feel strong and talented. 

    A PvPer is someone who likes to do combat against other players, but he is more likely to do it in an arena or in a group fight situation. They usually enjoy the challenge of the battle and so look for more even battles.

  • free2playfree2play Toronto, ONPosts: 1,868Member Uncommon

    PvP was never an issue until developers started using it as a PvE throttle.

     

    Forcing it on people to prevent them from doing anything but PvP in the game world. At this point it becomes nothing but sanctioned griefing.

     

    When you restrict it to consented, you see how very unpopular it really is. Mostly because it comes down to who has the best Latency or who has the best macro.

  • goldtoofgoldtoof leedsPosts: 337Member
    Hold on, that's how early mmos worked.

    Where do you get this since thing from? If anything the trend in gaming is to segregation pvp & pve.

    Where are these modern, not like the wonderful old games that were pure pve, games that throttle you with pvp? Err darkfall is only one I can think of.
  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOPosts: 1,417Member

    it never ceases to amaze me how many countless hours the human race spends arguing about semantics

    you are over thinking it.

    pvp = two or more players engaged in combat ... imo

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,229Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by free2play

    PvP was never an issue until developers started using it as a PvE throttle.

     

    Forcing it on people to prevent them from doing anything but PvP in the game world. At this point it becomes nothing but sanctioned griefing.

     

    When you restrict it to consented, you see how very unpopular it really is. Mostly because it comes down to who has the best Latency or who has the best macro.

    Or if it's a gear based game, who has the better gear.

    Or who brought more friends.

    Or who is playing the FOTM class.

     

    PvP = Hey, let's go play baseball at the park.

    PK = I throw a baseball at your head while you're busy raking leaves.

    I'll never understand why the open world pvp crowd is so adamant about everyone else playing that way. We don't want to. Go play with each other. We took our toys and went home, now you takes yours and go home, stop following us around.

  • wargfootwargfoot Gramsfoot, MIPosts: 48Member
    Originally posted by Rusque

    I'll never understand why the open world pvp crowd is so adamant about everyone else playing that way. We don't want to. Go play with each other. We took our toys and went home, now you takes yours and go home, stop following us around.

    I respectfully decline the invitation to join your hallucination.

     

    The history of MMOPGS is the opposite of what you suggest here in that games like UO started out as open world PvP and the PvE crowd insisted that the game be change to accommodate their play style.   In every case I can think of the open PvP worlds have suffered to make way for the demands of PvE players.

     

    Now I don't have a comprehensive knowledge of all games out there but if you'd care to name a single game where the PvP crowd have forced a developer to change a game launched as PvE into a PvP game I'd like to see it.  Please - any example of a PvE game where you're forced to PvP.   Just one.

     

    Laughably, I can name a dozen games with PvP where the players are forced to PvE.

     

    Nobody is asking you to play a PvP game.

     

    Please don't - we don't want to listen to the constant whinging.

     

  • Joker1977Joker1977 FlorencePosts: 37Member

    PvP is nothing more than min/maxers, zerging, and FotM class choices.

    Not that I am complaining, there is fun in that for millions of people. It's just true.

  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Long Island, NYPosts: 480Member Uncommon
    PvP is just players competing against each other. Doesn't really matter what the activity is, as long as there are players on either side its player vs player.
  • wargfootwargfoot Gramsfoot, MIPosts: 48Member
    Originally posted by Joker1977

    PvP is nothing more than min/maxers, zerging, and FotM class choices.

    Not that I am complaining, there is fun in that for millions of people. It's just true.

    I could retort by claiming that PvE is just a bunch of people farming memorized instances to gain trinkets because they're afraid of a challenge.

    Wouldn't make it true though.

  • onlinenow25onlinenow25 San Diego, CAPosts: 275Member
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by maplestone

     

    PvP is conflict between players who want to be in conflict.

    PKing is conflict between players when only one side wanted a conflict.

     

    No one wants a conflict they don't think they can win. Conflict is by definition non-consensual. Unless you are talking about real medieval dueling (which was a pretty retarded way to settle disputes).  

    The only thing which shouldn't ever be allowed IMO is griefing (camping spawn  points or killing players vastly inferior to you in power for no real reason). 

     

    No that is not the definition of Conflict.

     

    You have conflicts or are conflicted every day of your life.  When you wake up you can be conflicted on what to wear to school/work.  You can have a conflict involving what you want to eat for breakfast.  So on and so forth.  Conflict is a daily occurrence and to think its only something non-consensual is well not understanding what the word conflict means.

  • wargfootwargfoot Gramsfoot, MIPosts: 48Member

    Non-consensual PVP doesn't exist.

    If you bought a PvP game and log into it you are giving consent.

     

    It's like me standing around in a dragon's lair complaining that a big lizard keeps blowing fire on my 'toon.

     

  • MurdusMurdus bayville, NYPosts: 698Member

    Common in Guild Wars 2. Especially in the Living Story.

    I hate it.

  • RedshamanRedshaman Hartford, CTPosts: 19Member
    Glory!
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,666Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Joker1977

    PvP is nothing more than min/maxers, zerging, and FotM class choices.

    Not that I am complaining, there is fun in that for millions of people. It's just true.

    Do you feel the same way about sports and board games?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Joker1977Joker1977 FlorencePosts: 37Member
    Originally posted by wargfoot
    Originally posted by Joker1977

    PvP is nothing more than min/maxers, zerging, and FotM class choices.

    Not that I am complaining, there is fun in that for millions of people. It's just true.

    I could retort by claiming that PvE is just a bunch of people farming memorized instances to gain trinkets because they're afraid of a challenge.

    Wouldn't make it true though.

    Take out the ridiculous claim that it's because "they're afraid of a challenge" and it IS true.

    Notice that I stated the mechanics and mathematics of how PvP works. I never attached emotion or explanation as to why people like it.

    Take out your emotional bias and simply state the facts.

     

    You're right about one thing though. Someone saying something doesn't make it true. It being true, makes it true. I don't have to say anything for it to be true that PvP is nothing more than repetition and numbers. In fact, everything you do in a computer is nothing but numbers: 0's and 1's.

    If you're crying at my post and trying to discredit it because I offended you, then please stop. You don't have to get hurt feelings because I missed out on other stuff that PvP has involved, such as the skills related to min/maxing. The social aspect of zerging. The number crunching of FotM classes.

    I also left out one huge aspect of PvP that most people don't realize happens very often: Cheating. Whether it's "hackers" using software, exploits in code, or abusing unintended design elements, it's very prevalent. Especially in games like Planetside 2.

  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAPosts: 925Member Uncommon
    Note that this discussion is totally focused on PvP combat.  I'm wondering if that is because the various games have only allowed competition in terms of a combat system.  Where are the other forms of competition that we experience in real life -- debates, a horse race, athletic competitions, a county fair (crafting), or elections?  What about the possibility of one business buying out another, or driving a competitor out of business?  I really think these PvP discussions focus totally on the most undesirable form (combat) simply because it is the only game system the developers have coded.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • GrixxittGrixxitt New Orleans, LAPosts: 543Member
    Originally posted by TalulaRose
    PvP is just players competing against each other. Doesn't really matter what the activity is, as long as there are players on either side its player vs player.

    This is probably the most pure definition there is

     

    Playing chess vs. a computer opponent  = PvE

    Playing chess online vs. another player = PvP

    The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

    -The MMO Forum Community

  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG MelbournePosts: 1,134Member Uncommon
    What is pvp? Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more!
  • zastenzasten nowherePosts: 283Member

    pvp = shit game design.

    Way too many griefers for it to be anything else!

  • disownationdisownation Wadsworth, OHPosts: 243Member

    I think a lot of people today forget what PvP actually is. Or they have a distorted view of it. Many think PvP must involve combat - because that is all they know PvP to be. That's simply not the case.

     

    PvP is simply one Player versus another Player. If one was to create an Online Basketball game where one Player versed another Player in a game, that is essentially PvP. Any online card games where players play against other players  (i.e. Online Poker, etc) is PvP. Anyone competing against another in an Online Market (auction house, broker, etc) for control is PvP. And yes, one player versing another player in combat is PvP.

     

    PvP does not have to involve combat. All PvP boils down to is Player(s) versus Player(s). Combat is not a requirement for PvP.

     

    PK or Player Kill is simply that - being killed by another Player.

  • Joker1977Joker1977 FlorencePosts: 37Member

    I am reposting this, as a severely biased moderator unjustly deleted the post and banned me without reason. MikeB reversed this decision and agreed that it was 100% moderator bias.

    Since this post is not trolling in any way according to MikeB, I am posting it as it should have never been deleted by the biased moderator. (This is a notice to the moderators, that this post cannot be deleted, as the administrator MikeB has approved it and reversed your decision as wrong. Please refrain from causing MikeB any future headaches, as he is your boss.)

     

     

    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Joker1977

    PvP is nothing more than min/maxers, zerging, and FotM class choices.

    Not that I am complaining, there is fun in that for millions of people. It's just true.

    Do you feel the same way about sports and board games?

    I don't "feel" facts. I just state them.

    Sports in general, is more about natural athleticism and training, than math. You cannot choose your abilities in real life, just as how you cannot train to get better at MMO PvP by practicing how fast you press "1" then "2", then "1" again.

    The difference, is that video games (especially MMORPG's) are nothing more than numbers. As true as it is that your computer usage is nothing more than 1's and 0's, so is video game PvP, and PvE. All combat formulas rely on integers and formulas. Formulas that use math. The time it takes to refresh an ability? Math. The speed at which you can move in a game? Default Move Speed +-/* Bonus.

    If you don't believe me, then I could show you. I'm experienced enough in PvP to simply log into any video game, take a look at how builds are setup, and then do some basic math to figure out a build that will most likely crush you in seconds.

    I'm the type of PvPer who would sit out all day, trying to piss people by making arrogant statements, just so I could try to find someone who could actually beat me in a duel. I did this in Guild Wars 2 all day, every day, for 3 weeks. I was never beaten by another Warrior, and only beaten by 2 guardians. Two times the entire time I held my build. In a game where the community did not consider Warriors to be overpowered at the time. In fact, I heard many people say they were a bit gimp, which they actually were (at least in non-duel PvP).

    When I was still bronze in LoL, I regularly beat Platinum players who my friend (who was platinum at the time) would brag about. Although I certainly lost a lot in LoL, it was quite easy to rise in the ranks.

    I get bored with most game's PvP, because it's usually too easy. Once you discover how these games work, you can easily do basic math after skimming the abilities. You naturally know which ones are OP, which ones are worthless, and which ones need to be checked. A few calculations later, and you can have a build far greater than any poorly conceived FotM build.

    My builds are always custom built, to the point of people often making fun of my ability choices. After the match, it is actually quite common for those who laughed at me to turn around and beg me to share my tricks. Sometimes I share (which won't help them, as there is no real trick to it. Common sense really.) and sometimes I laugh at them for being so mean and then flip-flopping to Mr.Friendly when they realize they were wrong.

    No real tricks. Basic math. Granted I am good because I have a decade of experience in min/maxing, but that's all it is. Min/Maxing. In fact, I am not the only one who knows MMORPG PvP is just math. I did not come up with the term "min/max" or "numbercrunching" or "Munchkin". Those terms have been around for as long as it has been possible to exploit the system to achieve overpowered characters.

    I do not "feel" like people are Munchkins in PnP Roleplaying. It's a fact. I find it humorous for people to try to disagree with me, because I can almost immediately conclude they are most likely horrible at PvP. If they were good at PvP, they'd know it's all in the math. Even LoL is mostly about the math of item builds. Pro Players do not have a large consideration of which champion they play in normal matches. Most champions can fulfill most roles, based on items alone. Well, LoL requires a bit more "Player Skill" than most MMORPG PvP. However, this "Player Skill" is nothing more than experience. Lots and lots of games played and guides (about math) read.

    Player Skill = Min/Maxing Math

    Team Skill = Zerg + Proper Targeting, and obviously someone to lead the zerg. This is all common basics under the term Zerging.

    Throw in FotM braggarts and Cheaters, and you've got yourself MMORPG PvP!

    If you want to disagree, you are entirely welcome to. Just know that you will be entirely wrong. As much as you want to FEEL like I am wrong to say PvP is mostly just min/maxing and zerging, it doesn't change the fact it is true. I am sorry if I don't believe your feelings when you disagree. It's just that I am living proof it is nothing more than min/maxing. It's not just me either, I can hand a crappy player a build I make, and then will dominate. Hence the inclusion of "FotM builds" in addition to min/maxing and zerging.

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by Joker1977

    I am reposting this, as a severely biased moderator unjustly deleted the post and banned me without reason. MikeB reversed this decision and agreed that it was 100% moderator bias.

    Since this post is not trolling in any way according to MikeB, I am posting it as it should have never been deleted by the biased moderator. (This is a notice to the moderators, that this post cannot be deleted, as the administrator MikeB has approved it and reversed your decision as wrong. Please refrain from causing MikeB any future headaches, as he is your boss.)

     

     

    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Joker1977

    PvP is nothing more than min/maxers, zerging, and FotM class choices.

    Not that I am complaining, there is fun in that for millions of people. It's just true.

    Do you feel the same way about sports and board games?

    I don't "feel" facts. I just state them.

    Sports in general, is more about natural athleticism and training, than math. You cannot choose your abilities in real life, just as how you cannot train to get better at MMO PvP by practicing how fast you press "1" then "2", then "1" again.

    The difference, is that video games (especially MMORPG's) are nothing more than numbers. As true as it is that your computer usage is nothing more than 1's and 0's, so is video game PvP, and PvE. All combat formulas rely on integers and formulas. Formulas that use math. The time it takes to refresh an ability? Math. The speed at which you can move in a game? Default Move Speed +-/* Bonus.

    If you don't believe me, then I could show you. I'm experienced enough in PvP to simply log into any video game, take a look at how builds are setup, and then do some basic math to figure out a build that will most likely crush you in seconds.

    I'm the type of PvPer who would sit out all day, trying to piss people by making arrogant statements, just so I could try to find someone who could actually beat me in a duel. I did this in Guild Wars 2 all day, every day, for 3 weeks. I was never beaten by another Warrior, and only beaten by 2 guardians. Two times the entire time I held my build. In a game where the community did not consider Warriors to be overpowered at the time. In fact, I heard many people say they were a bit gimp, which they actually were (at least in non-duel PvP).

    When I was still bronze in LoL, I regularly beat Platinum players who my friend (who was platinum at the time) would brag about. Although I certainly lost a lot in LoL, it was quite easy to rise in the ranks.

    I get bored with most game's PvP, because it's usually too easy. Once you discover how these games work, you can easily do basic math after skimming the abilities. You naturally know which ones are OP, which ones are worthless, and which ones need to be checked. A few calculations later, and you can have a build far greater than any poorly conceived FotM build.

    My builds are always custom built, to the point of people often making fun of my ability choices. After the match, it is actually quite common for those who laughed at me to turn around and beg me to share my tricks. Sometimes I share (which won't help them, as there is no real trick to it. Common sense really.) and sometimes I laugh at them for being so mean and then flip-flopping to Mr.Friendly when they realize they were wrong.

    No real tricks. Basic math. Granted I am good because I have a decade of experience in min/maxing, but that's all it is. Min/Maxing. In fact, I am not the only one who knows MMORPG PvP is just math. I did not come up with the term "min/max" or "numbercrunching" or "Munchkin". Those terms have been around for as long as it has been possible to exploit the system to achieve overpowered characters.

    I do not "feel" like people are Munchkins in PnP Roleplaying. It's a fact. I find it humorous for people to try to disagree with me, because I can almost immediately conclude they are most likely horrible at PvP. If they were good at PvP, they'd know it's all in the math. Even LoL is mostly about the math of item builds. Pro Players do not have a large consideration of which champion they play in normal matches. Most champions can fulfill most roles, based on items alone. Well, LoL requires a bit more "Player Skill" than most MMORPG PvP. However, this "Player Skill" is nothing more than experience. Lots and lots of games played and guides (about math) read.

    Player Skill = Min/Maxing Math

    Team Skill = Zerg + Proper Targeting, and obviously someone to lead the zerg. This is all common basics under the term Zerging.

    Throw in FotM braggarts and Cheaters, and you've got yourself MMORPG PvP!

    If you want to disagree, you are entirely welcome to. Just know that you will be entirely wrong. As much as you want to FEEL like I am wrong to say PvP is mostly just min/maxing and zerging, it doesn't change the fact it is true. I am sorry if I don't believe your feelings when you disagree. It's just that I am living proof it is nothing more than min/maxing. It's not just me either, I can hand a crappy player a build I make, and then will dominate. Hence the inclusion of "FotM builds" in addition to min/maxing and zerging.

    Have you tried M&B warband crpg? If so what did you think of the pvp?

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

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