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[Column] General: PVE vs PVP

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  • Ender4Ender4 milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,253Member


    Originally posted by goldtoof
    Games like planetside 2 and day z are more successful than these modern pve "story" mmos.

    Those aren't MMORPG though and that is what this is talking about.

  • pioanstefanpioanstefan BucurestiPosts: 11Member

    PVE is the core of MMO genre, but PVE killed the MMO genre. in my opinion if u start to play massive multiplayer online game and u are not a fan for pvp u shouldnt do it at all. u should buy a single player game and start play coop or multy with your friends. online game means competing versus another player

    pong showed us 40 years ago the electronic games have the same rules like any other sport,activities or whatever u wanna call. peoples wants to compete with anoter peoples

    imagine if lineage 2 was more succesful then world of warcraft.

  • Iceman8235Iceman8235 Bordentown, NJPosts: 194Member Uncommon
    I didn't even read the article because there isn't really an argument to be had here.  There's no reason every triple A mmo these days shouldn't be able to have both end game PvE and PvP progression.
  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,478Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iceman8235
    I didn't even read the article because there isn't really an argument to be had here.  There's no reason every triple A mmo these days shouldn't be able to have both end game PvE and PvP progression.

    Fully agree. I really don't understand people who for some reason feel they need to be seperate. But then again perhaps they are not familiar with other genre of games that already offer it seperate.

  • red_cruiserred_cruiser Milwaukee, WIPosts: 472Member Uncommon

    I don't think being able to come up with six months of content by creating three tiny maps, a ranking system and a new set of gear is really a positive for the PvP side of the argument; and treating PvP in such a way sort of reduces it to just an after thought. 

  • FionnFionn Austin, TXPosts: 68Member
    I enjoy both and any game I play will incorperate both.  If I wanted a straight PVP game id play a FPS.  If I wanted a straight pve game id play something like Skyrim.  
  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,279Member Uncommon

    They key is to make a robust game with lots of robust systems, pvp and pve. I have no clue why people say this can't happen. 

     

    Wushu (here we go again. I know but for good reason) robust (atleast 15) pvp systems, with five one hour plus dungeons, with atleast four modes for each, ranging in size from 6 to 38 man. In addition to atleast 10 other pve systems. 

     

    Over the course of one year there has been two minor nerfs and one buff that I know of. Why can't the two coexist? They can, but guess what it takes planning during the development phase. It takes sharp programmers and high level vision. 

     

    Western AAA developers have been given too much money not to be able to have top notch talent. Less and less has been spent on gaining and retaining these talented people, and it shows when the majority of the western mmorpg community cannot conceive how pvp and pve can coexist. It's really a damn shame.

  • GruugGruug Chillicothe, ILPosts: 1,311Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ender4

     


    Originally posted by Gruug
    [

     

    On the other hand, PvE has almost (strong emphasis on ALMOST) been pretty good. Pretty much the reason for that is you didn't have to worry or look over your shoulder so much.


     

    If that is why you think PvE is good you are out of your mind.

     

    You obviously did not read what was said as you only quoted ONE sentence. Even in that sentence, I said "ALMOST" in regards to PvE. But, in my opinion, mixing PvP with PvE has ALWAYS lead to a poor PvE experience regardless.

    Let's party like it is 1863!

  • GruugGruug Chillicothe, ILPosts: 1,311Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DeathWolf2u

    'Star Wars Galaxies' in the first 2 to 4 months of first public retail release had the best PvP hands down, want to know why......

     

    No one had a script program yet made for 'SWG'. That and PvP played out like an FPS game too where your skill with the keyboard and mouse was just as important as the character type and skills you had. Plus I had a Bounty Hunter / Pistoleer with the best weapons a Master Weaponsmith could make, it was pure awesomeness.

     

    That was the best PvP fighting I ever had in any mmorpg type game where no one was cheating with scripting otherwise I prefer to fight other players with pure keyboard and mouse skill in FPS only games.

     

     

    You enjoyed it because YOU were the one that had the upper hand. I am sure that the people that were on the receiving end did not think the same....at least not all of them. But this is where the PvP/PvE debate is so blurred. PvP'ers that can beat up on someone and win think it is great. PvE'ers  that are often beaten down by those same PvP'ers think that it is not fair because PvP is not the reason they play some of those games. They are not looking to have to contend with every PvP'er that thinks "red is dead". Their thinking is "where can I go to find this or do that". In other words, mix PvP'ers with PvP'ers ONLY. Leave PvE'ers alone.

    Let's party like it is 1863!

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Gruug

    Originally posted by DeathWolf2u
    'Star Wars Galaxies' in the first 2 to 4 months of first public retail release had the best PvP hands down, want to know why......No one had a script program yet made for 'SWG'. That and PvP played out like an FPS game too where your skill with the keyboard and mouse was just as important as the character type and skills you had. Plus I had a Bounty Hunter / Pistoleer with the best weapons a Master Weaponsmith could make, it was pure awesomeness.That was the best PvP fighting I ever had in any mmorpg type game where no one was cheating with scripting otherwise I prefer to fight other players with pure keyboard and mouse skill in FPS only games.
     
    You enjoyed it because YOU were the one that had the upper hand. I am sure that the people that were on the receiving end did not think the same....at least not all of them. But this is where the PvP/PvE debate is so blurred. PvP'ers that can beat up on someone and win think it is great. PvE'ers  that are often beaten down by those same PvP'ers think that it is not fair because PvP is not the reason they play some of those games. They are not looking to have to contend with every PvP'er that thinks "red is dead". Their thinking is "where can I go to find this or do that". In other words, mix PvP'ers with PvP'ers ONLY. Leave PvE'ers alone.
    ::raises hand::

    That is me :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • wemilmmowemilmmo katrineholmPosts: 3Member

    gw2,eve...

     

    ok all games ive played with my guild this is pve players for us.

     

    eve online. we started our career we enjoyed running alone doing 40vs100.

    we couldn't do that for a very long time because pve players they are casual players they don't care they got nothing to lose so they try to follow the fleet and destroy for us we hated that but after joining a very closed alliance with no pugs(pve players) all we did was killing em in other alliances and didn't let them in.

     

    guild wars 2 is the biggest fail 2013 in this.

     

    the game have created a brilliant mode WvW but they focus PVE and PVP except pvp was fail there all WvW players do PVP to train invidually then they leave for WvW(90% of those players are guild players and I heard most of them are quitting slowly so bye bye pvp and good quality WvW)

     

    this league in guild wars 2 totally showed me how much pve players sucks.

     

    several servers went from average ques in prime time and no que whole day all guilds could man raids the first day of league began and for whole weeks there was 3 hours que to up no guilds could start no core raids.

    pve players are a disgrace lol they don't think about the server just for themselves they don't even now what skills to use in game they don't even get on teamspeak nor are they communicating its just about themselves because they are ''casual '' players.

     

    there is no way to create a game for both PVP pve players except.

     

    you make a server for better players PVP players and a server for PVE players casual players.

     

    problem is how to get them to right server lol.

  • AlomarAlomar Middle Earth, NJPosts: 448Member Uncommon
    All I do is pvp, and in a hardcore capacity. I love it and it will always be a more important reason of why I play mmorpg's, rather than pve. If I want a scripted fight to master I'll give some of you raiders a call. Cya on the field, all of them btw.

    Dozens of MMO's, RTS's, FPS's, etc.

  • Ladrann27Ladrann27 ValkenburgPosts: 43Member

    Chris, I find it highly annoying that you only look at PvP from a perspective of battlegrounds and instances. Also the part of the community's is just not true, I have been part of some very good PvP community's. Times have changed since the old days (UO, DAoC, etc) and luckily, looking at some projects being undertaken now, we are going back to how it was back then.

     

     

  • this was a nice article, good job you guys, and as usual I am posting before reading any comments. 

    I agree with you guys in most of your arguments, I am a pve'er who does some pvp which I suck at, but still enjoying playing anyway.  I think the most ideal thing is to have a morg that is just like real life, sandbox... as well as open world pvp, no classes either, and for christ sake no holy trinity b.s.

    now lets play

  • Originally posted by DeathWolf2u

    'Star Wars Galaxies' in the first 2 to 4 months of first public retail release had the best PvP hands down, want to know why......

     

    No one had a script program yet made for 'SWG'. That and PvP played out like an FPS game too where your skill with the keyboard and mouse was just as important as the character type and skills you had. Plus I had a Bounty Hunter / Pistoleer with the best weapons a Master Weaponsmith could make, it was pure awesomeness.

     

    That was the best PvP fighting I ever had in any mmorpg type game where no one was cheating with scripting otherwise I prefer to fight other players with pure keyboard and mouse skill in FPS only games.

     agree

     

     

     

     
     

     

  • warriorpoet7warriorpoet7 Riverside, CAPosts: 40Member

    I do not agree that PvP players are the best, far from it. PvP these days is nothing more than the same Arena/Battleground grind ... following the same general tactics used 1000x over. I mostly PvE now, but I PvP hours and hours on end back in DAoC when PvP did involve more than a general zerg towards each other like wild barbarians on the battlefield.

     

    PvP isn't the best on MMOs, as it generally causes balancing nightmares and only damages the stability of the game. WoW is a good example of this. Rare exceptions is how DAoC did the original frontiers.

    The PvP I loved dates back to the days of UO and DAoC ... this current PvE vs PvP trend if garbage. 

  • Kuro1nKuro1n GothenburgPosts: 771Member

    Hah, PVP is easily more skillbased than PVE. PVE is just about running instances until you get your shit and everyone else get theirs. Try playing a game with good PVP in top tier and you have a real challenge.

     

    That said, PVP is as others have stated shit these days because the devs just don't give a fuck, "oh lets add an arena so these fuckers will shut up already". Yepp thats about it.

  • BMBenderBMBender Nowhere, NCPosts: 568Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Reklaw
    Originally posted by Iceman8235
    I didn't even read the article because there isn't really an argument to be had here.  There's no reason every triple A mmo these days shouldn't be able to have both end game PvE and PvP progression.

    Fully agree. I really don't understand people who for some reason feel they need to be seperate. But then again perhaps they are not familiar with other genre of games that already offer it seperate.

    Probably because you've never had to sit down and actually get it to function properly across two diametrically different play styles.  To date successful implementation of a balanced pvp balanced pve  hybrid with no uncontrollable crossover consequences is something like 0 / several hundred attempts.

     

    Sooner or later every team that's tried comes to the same conclusion and goes with the default 80-90 / 20-10 split default, where most developmental resources are focused in one or the other.

    image
  • xeraxxerax LondonPosts: 61Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DocBrody

    oh come on, that myth again?

     

    there really is no PvE vs. PvP

    there is "regular people who play everything" vs. PvE-only extremists who are not good at PvP and only shoot easier scripted mobs, running an ideological PvE vs PVP debate for every game.

    I mainly enjoy PVE although I will pvp occasionally for me it gets old fast.

    The reason there is a PVE VS PVP issue is PVP balance changes a game. Many many mmos I have played (wow, swtor, SWG, Rfit, ETC) have adjusted / marginalised abilities (nerfed) because of the impact these abilites can have in PVP. 

    A prime example of this is the impact of Stealth / alpha strike classes, Sneaking past really dangerous guards, hit and run tactics and quick assassinations/ escapes make for fun PVE game play, But in PVP people bitch so bad if they are jumped and dead before they can react (which i suppose is fair enough). Think about how many games which have started with a vaible stealth / assassination style character but had to dial it back to something different after mass PVP related complaints.

    Crowd Control is another issue, 1-2 min sleeps spells 10 sec stuns etc are all plausible in a tough PVE enviroment. Look at only school EQ1 no problem with enchanters, latters games PVP demands shorter and shorter Crowd control because PVP players dont like being long term crowd controlled.

    Good PVE for me is about building a group of specialists each with signifcant abilities in  their own area who can work as a team to beat something hard, Modern mmo wisdom seems to be PVE & PVP, everyone pretty much the same, everyone gets a self heal, an escape ability, a dps cool down. etc To me this is dull.

  • BMBenderBMBender Nowhere, NCPosts: 568Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xerax
    Originally posted by DocBrody

    oh come on, that myth again?

     

    there really is no PvE vs. PvP

    there is "regular people who play everything" vs. PvE-only extremists who are not good at PvP and only shoot easier scripted mobs, running an ideological PvE vs PVP debate for every game.

    I mainly enjoy PVE although I will pvp occasionally for me it gets old fast.

    The reason there is a PVE VS PVP issue is PVP balance changes a game. Many many mmos I have played (wow, swtor, SWG, Rfit, ETC) have adjusted / marginalised abilities (nerfed) because of the impact these abilites can have in PVP. 

    A prime example of this is the impact of Stealth / alpha strike classes, Sneaking past really dangerous guards, hit and run tactics and quick assassinations/ escapes make for fun PVE game play, But in PVP people bitch so bad if they are jumped and dead before they can react (which i suppose is fair enough). Think about how many games which have started with a vaible stealth / assassination style character but had to dial it back to something different after mass PVP related complaints.

    Crowd Control is another issue, 1-2 min sleeps spells 10 sec stuns etc are all plausible in a tough PVE enviroment. Look at only school EQ1 no problem with enchanters, latters games PVP demands shorter and shorter Crowd control because PVP players dont like being long term crowd controlled.

    Good PVE for me is about building a group of specialists each with signifcant abilities in  their own area who can work as a team to beat something hard, Modern mmo wisdom seems to be PVE & PVP, everyone pretty much the same, everyone gets a self heal, an escape ability, a dps cool down. etc To me this is dull.

    And the coin flip of this is that pve changes often have big unforeseen/un-desired impacts on pvp(for reference see STO)  There is not enough time in any development cycle to QA this crap away, it just builds your todo list with every change.

    image
  • HomituHomitu Hometown, HIPosts: 2,030Member
    Originally posted by General-Zod

    I laughed when Bill said that PvE'ers would cry of the A.I was too smart (aka The computer wouldnt let me win Waaaaaaah)

    All jokes aside

    I agree with Bill, pvp content in an open world setting can be washed & repeated. Battlegrounds and arenas get alittle mundane... the only game that did battlegrounds correctly was Daoc. I also want to add that pve is also important to pvp'ers because it allows us to relax from the pressures of pvp.

    Everybody knows being the best at something is stressful...

    That's a very real issue though, and one that has been discussed many times here and by developers on their own games forums many times.  There is a super tricky balance developers must try to reach when programming their boss encounters.  They must make fights difficult enough that there will be a learning curve for almost any group and, therefore, feel very rewarding once they finally defeat the encounter; but they must not make the fights too hard, or you will alienate way too many players (and get all the rest to rage quit).  

    I know some believe that PvE difficulty suffers because developers don't have the technology to make truly challenging AI, but that's not the case at all.  They can make bosses dynamically respond to all sorts of different scenarios, but the results would just be severely frustrating for players.  When players can't accurately anticipate what a boss will do and respond accordingly, when the boss can unpredictably adjust a mechanic on the fly to own someone, it just feels cheap and frustrating.  The computer could just press an 'I win' button at any point (and not just by statistically 1-shotting everyone), but that doesn't feel fun to anyone.  

  • RinnaRinna Las Vegas, NVPosts: 388Member
    I'd be truly happy if they forever separated the two camps.  I'm not a pvper, I won't ever be a pvper... how bout just let me enjoy my game my way and keep pvp over there.  Arenas or instanced areas or separate games are better than open world pvp that alienates non pvpers.  Or give me an option in open world to Never Ever Ever EVER flag up or autoflag.

    No bitchers.

  • silhouettezsilhouettez JakartaPosts: 1Member Uncommon
    MMORPG PVPers are those that are bad at other REAL PVP genres (fighting, FPS, sports, the ones that actually takes skill to win), and decide to look for easier targets that they can handle: those not interested in PVP, or they need something to give them advantage over others. MMORPGs are just too slow for real skill to show, especially when gear matters. Ironic seeing that the only thing these PVPers gloat are their "mad skillz", though in reality they're lacking in them or otherwise they'd go for those other games. Seriously, though, if these guys are so pro, why don't they just play for the real money in real competitions? Those get them more recognition, more reward, and more challenge (hah) than playing MMORPGs.
  • FaelsunFaelsun Brandon, MSPosts: 492Member
    Originally posted by Rinna
    I'd be truly happy if they forever separated the two camps.  I'm not a pvper, I won't ever be a pvper... how bout just let me enjoy my game my way and keep pvp over there.  Arenas or instanced areas or separate games are better than open world pvp that alienates non pvpers.  Or give me an option in open world to Never Ever Ever EVER flag up or autoflag.

     

    People who don't pvp telling the rest of us what pvp is, thats rich. 

    Did you ever consider it was people like you who get emotional over your toon getting fake killed in a multi player game, VS other people and then expect to be left alone like its a single player game might be ruining the game for everyone else? When did this behavior ever become normal. Instanced  and Arena  areas are not pvp thats a mini game and that is why these bubblegum hand holding no bullying games flop. No one who is really serious about pvp world or structured plays GW2 which is probably why most of the people still playing it  just collect cosmetics. 

    I mean to be blunt just because you are a chicken shit doesn't mean they have to code it in the game and ruin the fun of it for everyone else. Maybe grow a nutsack and participate, stop being such a crybaby and compete. Christ can you imagine how boring EVE online would be if it were JUST farming ore off rocks and chatting AFK, I mean when will cowards understand that coding a game around you not having any spine is going to be the most boring game ever made. I mean have you played GW2 they couldnt make a more boring POS, I can already tell you what the POS games will be because of the carebear crybaby pvp systems they implemented. Elder Scrolls is going to be carebear questfest with nothing to do. 

  • JetrpgJetrpg Whitehouse, OHPosts: 2,376Member
    daoc PRE/EARILY toa eough said, just do that.

    "Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

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