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How about an invite only MMO - thinking out loud

2

Comments

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon

    it could work in a few ways.

    Sell an "mmo in a box" or essentially something that is on a grander scale than the old neverwinter nights worlds. Allow players to host their own worlds (or perhaps they pay the developer for the hosting but they are the people who tailor the rules on that particular world.

    Then they invite and kick as they see fit.

    Or make it so that they can't tailor the rules of the world but they pay for hosting and invite who they want.

  • jazz.bejazz.be Sint-NiklaasPosts: 820Member Uncommon

    I'm sure Google used that method because they were not ready yet to offer it to the mass. Why handle invites yourself if you can leave that up to the current users? Kind of a smart way to get through the first stages.

    As for bringing that to games, I'm no sure I understand why any publisher would do that?

  • usuckmmorpgcomusuckmmorpgcom c, KYPosts: 1,348Member
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by H.Coelho

    Thats terrible in so many ways and wouldn't even come close to achieve your goal.

     

    What a sick elitism, id rather play with a spoiled brat.

    You don't protect your investments?

    It's a game, not a stock portfolio.

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jazz.be

    I'm sure Google used that method because they were not ready yet to offer it to the mass. Why handle invites yourself if you can leave that up to the current users? Kind of a smart way to get through the first stages.

    As for bringing that to games, I'm no sure I understand why any publisher would do that?

    It was done but the slow leak was more about allocating resources slowly and seeing demand grow incrementally instead of in a large clump. The scarcity everyone thinks was to gain buzz about the product. Since they gave out the invites to tech people they knew that they would share them with other tech people. Then what they had was an army of tech people saying ditch your hotmail or yahoo mail because gmail won't show your IP address in the headers, they will proxy their own instead. Things like that tech people understand and the general public would require explanation. Of course, that was back when people trusted google and they were much smaller lol.

    I suppose you could sell it on the premise of what happens in lots of games months after release. It's becoming textbook.

    Game releases with lots of servers. Game is open to everyone.

    Everyone who has time comes to look at the game. People that don't like the game leave. People that only sort of like the game play less while they look for another game.

    People see the loss of population and say our server is dead.

    Game starts closing servers.

    People start saying game is dead, see, they are closing servers.

    Why even start that up when you can grow slower. I see secondary advantages to the whole scheme.

     

     

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by grimgryphon
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by H.Coelho

    Thats terrible in so many ways and wouldn't even come close to achieve your goal.

     

    What a sick elitism, id rather play with a spoiled brat.

    You don't protect your investments?

    It's a game, not a stock portfolio.

    It's the developer's baby.

    They make the rules to protect their investment. Though playing the stocks is a game for many.

    Is that more clear?

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,783Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by squalleonaha

    are you trying to go backward? we already had those MMO many years ago under the name of  "LAN".

    the model what you speak is multiplayer on Console, just put a password and give it only to people you want because only people chosen by you isnt be judged as "insects " BY YOU.

    No. It's about protecting an infant community from predators.

    infants shouldnt be playing violent games, no matter how cute the game looks. Much less if it involves money changing hands. Also, what makes you think the infant will get an invite and a possible predator wouldnt? they are both hiding their identities. None of them should be in game IMO.

     

    Back to topic, i find invitation only mmo funny. Like Quizzical said, good for betas, not for releases. If the company wants a specific community playing their game then they already know the proven and best way to do that is by designing the game they want for the specific community they are targetting. Making the same old crappy generic widely mmo that caters to everyone and then limit it to invitations only make the game and the company collapse.

    image
  • usuckmmorpgcomusuckmmorpgcom c, KYPosts: 1,348Member
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by grimgryphon
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by H.Coelho

    Thats terrible in so many ways and wouldn't even come close to achieve your goal.

     

    What a sick elitism, id rather play with a spoiled brat.

    You don't protect your investments?

    It's a game, not a stock portfolio.

    It's the developer's baby.

    They make the rules to protect their investment. Though playing the stocks is a game for many.

    Is that more clear?

    What developer? This is just a discussion about something that doesn't exist.

    If you want to be clear, come back from the land of unicorns and rainbows.

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by grimgryphon
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by grimgryphon
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by H.Coelho

    Thats terrible in so many ways and wouldn't even come close to achieve your goal.

     

    What a sick elitism, id rather play with a spoiled brat.

    You don't protect your investments?

    It's a game, not a stock portfolio.

    It's the developer's baby.

    They make the rules to protect their investment. Though playing the stocks is a game for many.

    Is that more clear?

    What developer? This is just a discussion about something that doesn't exist.

    If you want to be clear, come back from the land of unicorns and rainbows.

    I guess I wasn't. Sorry.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • Solar_ProphetSolar_Prophet Columbus, OHPosts: 878Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by grimgryphon
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by H.Coelho

    Thats terrible in so many ways and wouldn't even come close to achieve your goal.

     

    What a sick elitism, id rather play with a spoiled brat.

    You don't protect your investments?

    It's a game, not a stock portfolio.

    No kidding, right?

    It's a video game, people.

    VIDEO. GAME.

    But if you people want to go ahead and play the part of Prospero & his guests and seal yourselves away from the rest of us 'insects' in an MMO somewhere, then so be it. Just remember that things didn't exactly work out for them in the end...

    AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!

  • jazz.bejazz.be Sint-NiklaasPosts: 820Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by jazz.be

    I'm sure Google used that method because they were not ready yet to offer it to the mass. Why handle invites yourself if you can leave that up to the current users? Kind of a smart way to get through the first stages.

    As for bringing that to games, I'm no sure I understand why any publisher would do that?

    It was done but the slow leak was more about allocating resources slowly and seeing demand grow incrementally instead of in a large clump. The scarcity everyone thinks was to gain buzz about the product. Since they gave out the invites to tech people they knew that they would share them with other tech people. Then what they had was an army of tech people saying ditch your hotmail or yahoo mail because gmail won't show your IP address in the headers, they will proxy their own instead. Things like that tech people understand and the general public would require explanation. Of course, that was back when people trusted google and they were much smaller lol.

    I suppose you could sell it on the premise of what happens in lots of games months after release. It's becoming textbook.

    Game releases with lots of servers. Game is open to everyone.

    Everyone who has time comes to look at the game. People that don't like the game leave. People that only sort of like the game play less while they look for another game.

    People see the loss of population and say our server is dead.

    Game starts closing servers.

    People start saying game is dead, see, they are closing servers.

    Why even start that up when you can grow slower. I see secondary advantages to the whole scheme.

     

     

    That makes sense from a marketing point of view.

    How long will you be able to run in invite mode? In your first post you suggested this would be a permanent thing. But that sure would not work.

    I mean it sounds cool, and perhaps you'll get "better" playerbase, but I don't think it's practically possible to do. And that's a huge U turn in today's philosophy of selling as much copies/subs as possible. There are a few steps between how it's done today, and what you suggest. You're calling for a total revolution ;-)

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by rojo6934
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by squalleonaha

    are you trying to go backward? we already had those MMO many years ago under the name of  "LAN".

    the model what you speak is multiplayer on Console, just put a password and give it only to people you want because only people chosen by you isnt be judged as "insects " BY YOU.

    No. It's about protecting an infant community from predators.

    infants shouldnt be playing violent games, no matter how cute the game looks. Much less if it involves money changing hands. Also, what makes you think the infant will get an invite and a possible predator wouldnt? they are both hiding their identities. None of them should be in game IMO.

     

    Back to topic, i find invitation only mmo funny. Like Quizzical said, good for betas, not for releases. If the company wants a specific community playing their game then they already know the proven and best way to do that is by designing the game they want for the specific community they are targetting. Making the same old crappy generic widely mmo that caters to everyone and then limit it to invitations only make the game and the company collapse.

    Depends on the game. Why miss out on money because some people play to make the game fail?

    How do you know you can't make even more money that way? You would have a plan.

     

    You really thought I was talking about infant children? Ok, then. Thanks for the lecture.

     

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    The scheme's actually been done (some guys running a MUD called Inferno thought they could "screen" for roleplayers, allowing for a lengthy application process, requiring a written backstory for evaluation, etc.)

    You'll have to track down one of the ex-players, but I don't believe many considered the experiment a success.

     

    Screen-out-the-hooligans-via-pricing schemes have been tried, many times.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG MelbournePosts: 1,134Member Uncommon

    Firstly, if it is invite only, it is not really an mmo then isn't it? Since it won't be "massively multiplayer" but just a multiplayer game.

     

    Secondly, why are people in this forum keeps on thinking up ways for mmos to NOT make money, lol? Game development is, afterall, a profession and a business. Game developers needs to eat like the rest of us too.

     

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member

    Free2Play you make a reservation. Pay2play is invitation, Pay to win is highest bidder. Every new invitation given out increases the f2p and p2win invitation.

    Your payment method determined by type of invitation? Devs control the number of invites ultimately. The demand and the supply if people want to play it depends on how good.

    Everyone plays the same game.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,783Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by rojo6934
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by squalleonaha

    Depends on the game. Why miss out on money because some people play to make the game fail?

    How do you know you can't make even more money that way? You would have a plan.

     

    You really thought I was talking about infant children? Ok, then. Thanks for the lecture.

     

    Bingo!. That right there... Why miss out on money because some elitists want to make an mmo invitation only?

     

    Edit: in case you missed it. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/infant

    image
  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by rojo6934
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by rojo6934
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by squalleonaha

    Depends on the game. Why miss out on money because some people play to make the game fail?

    How do you know you can't make even more money that way? You would have a plan.

     

    You really thought I was talking about infant children? Ok, then. Thanks for the lecture.

     

    Bingo!. That right there... Why miss out on money because some elitists want to make an mmo invitation only?

     

    Edit: in case you missed it. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/infant

    Yes, I'm quite the elitist. Ya, I get it. You took me literally. I said I was sorry. Thanks for the definition.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon

    It worked for gmail and it can work in some situations but not as a general practice. Gmail worked because the email landscape at the time was clamoring for something like this. There was not only a real desire for it, but I think a real need.

    Google has subsequently tried a similar approach with other beta or labs programs to much less success. In fact I would say it pissed off a lot of Google users who might have been in previous trials and then were overlooked. I think it showed that a company has to be careful how it treats its existing customers as no one likes to feel excluded, especially early adopters and testers.

    If the mmo landscape had a real need for this approach and a vacuum waiting to be filled then I think it would be successful. I don't think that's the case. In fact I would say once an Indie project gets going it has the opposite problem: attracting enough people to test the game and provide quality feedback.

    We already have "invite only" mmo servers. Those are the illegal private servers. They're only successful because they're riding on the backs of others money and work. There is no way one of these would make it big if they had to put $20 - $80M of their own money in and then restrict access to "invite only".

    Also this isn't what mmos are really about. They're about gaming alongside a lot of other people, good and bad, and forming a community with them. Lineage had a great community filled with cool people and asshats. That's part of what makes the community real.

  • ApollosWillApollosWill -, OHPosts: 65Member Uncommon

    Maybe not let the game (developers) decide the community by invites, but let the players decide their own community.

    Could work like this;

    When you enter the game, it would almost be like having every one else on ignore, and ignore in this specific game, means, not able to see them and/or invite or receive invites for teams/guilds.

    But you could receive friend requests if you have a real life friend, and than you would be able to hook up.

    So, why play a MMORPG? To justify it as a MMORPG, it should still be possible to meet new players.

    So, the days where you would like to increase the circle of friends, you would enable the "find new player".

    You would choose different traits you are looking for such as RPG (heavy, lite), PVPer, powerplayer, mature, casual, speedy play, whatever. Other people could probably come up with a better list.

    Than the game would search for players that was in the same mood, and find a way to make them meet. Perhaps a Quest given that make them meet up at the same location.

    After the quest, you could than decide whatever or not, this could become a more permanent relationship. You could slowly expand your own personal community this way. Problems I can foresee; Need huge servers to hold all those instances and your world could seem a bit empty (actually think this would work better, in a game, where players are over the top character such as Superheroes)

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    It worked for gmail and it can work in some situations but not as a general practice. Gmail worked because the email landscape at the time was clamoring for something like this. There was not only a real desire for it, but I think a real need.

    Google has subsequently tried a similar approach with other beta or labs programs to much less success. In fact I would say it pissed off a lot of Google users who might have been in previous trials and then were overlooked. I think it showed that a company has to be careful how it treats its existing customers as no one likes to feel excluded, especially early adopters and testers.

    If the mmo landscape had a real need for this approach and a vacuum waiting to be filled then I think it would be successful. I don't think that's the case. In fact I would say once an Indie project gets going it has the opposite problem: attracting enough people to test the game and provide quality feedback.

    We already have "invite only" mmo servers. Those are the illegal private servers. They're only successful because they're riding on the backs of others money and work. There is no way one of these would make it big if they had to put $20 - $80M of their own money in and then restrict access to "invite only".

    Also this isn't what mmos are really about. They're about gaming alongside a lot of other people, good and bad, and forming a community with them. Lineage had a great community filled with cool people and asshats. That's part of what makes the community real.

    Well then we'll have all the same restrictions and barriers we have now until its another themepark. What good is an "old school" game just to repeat the same scenarios?

     

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAPosts: 928Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by richarddoyle

    Sure, you could do that.

    If every member of your small community was willing to shell out $150+/mo sub to make up for the tiny population.

    I'm thinking more like $1500 US per account per month, but I think you're on the right track.  If someone's going to build a Lamborghini of an MMORPG, they might as well charge appropriately.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAPosts: 928Member Uncommon

    In addition to the near-catastrophic financial model, what would happen if the developers picked an anti-social type player in their initial invite?   Most of my gaming friends have moved on to other aspects of their lives -- marriage, parenthood, retirement, etc.  I would bring a rather small-scale network of gamers along with me.  The invite-a-friend model works only if the critical first few generations each have a hundred friends to invite.

    Besides, the whole invitation only concept smells suspiciously of a pyramid scheme.  I don't want any miracle shampoo product #71, and I really don't want to become a miracle shampoo product #71 salesman.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • GardavsshadeGardavsshade Cedar Springs, MIPosts: 766Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    It worked for gmail and it can work in some situations but not as a general practice. Gmail worked because the email landscape at the time was clamoring for something like this. There was not only a real desire for it, but I think a real need.

    Google has subsequently tried a similar approach with other beta or labs programs to much less success. In fact I would say it pissed off a lot of Google users who might have been in previous trials and then were overlooked. I think it showed that a company has to be careful how it treats its existing customers as no one likes to feel excluded, especially early adopters and testers.

    If the mmo landscape had a real need for this approach and a vacuum waiting to be filled then I think it would be successful. I don't think that's the case. In fact I would say once an Indie project gets going it has the opposite problem: attracting enough people to test the game and provide quality feedback.

    We already have "invite only" mmo servers. Those are the illegal private servers. They're only successful because they're riding on the backs of others money and work. There is no way one of these would make it big if they had to put $20 - $80M of their own money in and then restrict access to "invite only".

    Also this isn't what mmos are really about. They're about gaming alongside a lot of other people, good and bad, and forming a community with them. Lineage had a great community filled with cool people and asshats. That's part of what makes the community real.

    I would like to comment on the part I highlighted...

    Those "private" servers you refer to ARE illegal, and it will only take a Court Decision or two for Corps like Lucas Arts to release the Legal Hounds for their feast. Anyone having anything to do with those private servers may very well find themselves subpoenaed . Not a good thing to happen just because you missed a MMO that got shut down.

    THAT's a big part of why those private servers are not more populated than what they are. A fair number of MMO Players would not risk a lawsuit just to play a MMO. Some Players won't touch these private servers even with little chance of legal trouble simply because they don't want to do anything illegal... even if no one cares.

    So I think myself that private servers are irrelevant to this discussion all things considered.

    As to the original posters idea.... I see what your intent is but to be honest I am confident that such a plan would NOT weed out the troublemakers, no, they would in fact be compelled to do what ever they could to get an invite, and all you would do is attract the wrong Players.... definition of "wrong" in this particular instance being the Players you would be trying to keep out of your MMO by using the Invite system you propose.

    So imo.... nice intention, potentially bad end result (my guess in this prognostication session.

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by Gardavsshade
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    It worked for gmail and it can work in some situations but not as a general practice. Gmail worked because the email landscape at the time was clamoring for something like this. There was not only a real desire for it, but I think a real need.

    Google has subsequently tried a similar approach with other beta or labs programs to much less success. In fact I would say it pissed off a lot of Google users who might have been in previous trials and then were overlooked. I think it showed that a company has to be careful how it treats its existing customers as no one likes to feel excluded, especially early adopters and testers.

    If the mmo landscape had a real need for this approach and a vacuum waiting to be filled then I think it would be successful. I don't think that's the case. In fact I would say once an Indie project gets going it has the opposite problem: attracting enough people to test the game and provide quality feedback.

    We already have "invite only" mmo servers. Those are the illegal private servers. They're only successful because they're riding on the backs of others money and work. There is no way one of these would make it big if they had to put $20 - $80M of their own money in and then restrict access to "invite only".

    Also this isn't what mmos are really about. They're about gaming alongside a lot of other people, good and bad, and forming a community with them. Lineage had a great community filled with cool people and asshats. That's part of what makes the community real.

    I would like to comment on the part I highlighted...

    Those "private" servers you refer to ARE illegal, and it will only take a Court Decision or two for Corps like Lucas Arts to release the Legal Hounds for their feast. Anyone having anything to do with those private servers may very well find themselves subpoenaed . Not a good thing to happen just because you missed a MMO that got shut down.

    THAT's a big part of why those private servers are not more populated than what they are. A fair number of MMO Players would not risk a lawsuit just to play a MMO.

    So I think myself that private servers are irrelevant to this discussion all things considered.

    As to the original posters idea.... I see what your intent is but to be honest I am confident that such a plan would NOT weed out the troublemakers, no, they would in fact be compelled to do what ever they could to get an invite, and all you would do is attract the wrong Players.... definition of "wrong" in this particular instance being the Players you would be trying to keep out of your MMO by using the Invite system you propose.

    So imo.... nice intention, potentially bad end result (my guess in this prognostication session.

    It's not about keeping people out.

    So if you see a potential downside, then the idea must be scrapped? No solution considered.

     Maybe this will actually work.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gardavsshade

    As to the original posters idea.... I see what your intent is but to be honest I am confident that such a plan would NOT weed out the troublemakers, no, they would in fact be compelled to do what ever they could to get an invite, and all you would do is attract the wrong Players.... definition of "wrong" in this particular instance being the Players you would be trying to keep out of your MMO by using the Invite system you propose.

    So imo.... nice intention, potentially bad end result (my guess in this prognostication session.

     I disagree.

    If there is a method of inviting there can also be a method of uninviting.

    Like I said above, if it worked like the Neverwinter private worlds it could be possible. They might not be able to have the functonality of a full mmo but given better technology today I imagine they would be better than those Neverwinter Nights maps.

     

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Gardavsshade

    ...snip

     I disagree.

    If there is a method of inviting there can also be a method of uninviting.

    Like I said above, if it worked like the Neverwinter private worlds it could be possible. They might not be able to have the functonality of a full mmo but given better technology today I imagine they would be better than those Neverwinter Nights maps.

     

    Oooo now that's a path I'd like to see taken.

    People say they want their actions to be meaningful in the world.

    Reminds me of ostra from the Athenians. Too bad theirs was a no defense outcome but more about forced recycling. Most votes is a judgement made.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracise

    You could operate a zero sum where as many go out as come in but that might make the game too few people because you can't get much higher than your original invite list. Just the fear though of being booted for being a citizen others despise might be a way to keep people acting civil. By definition though, some of the powerful would be candidates because of jealousy.

    http://www.answers.com/topic/ostracism#ixzz2kIQggf85

    ostracism

    n.

      1. The act of banishing or excluding.
      2. Banishment or exclusion from a group; disgrace.
    1. In Athens and other cities of ancient Greece, the temporary banishment by popular vote of a citizen considered dangerous to the state.

     

    Otherwise I would think people need to be able to defend why they should be able to stay except those extreme cases where proof is known of intentional manipulation like selling invitations. Name and shame with evidence though can be tough in a photo-shopped world. Then it becomes a justice system somewhere where decisions have to be made on who wins each case. The overhead grows... must be a way to automate it, good old voting system would work if the game were small enough where you had an opinion of every player and had interacted with them. That sounds to me like it needs to be revolving about players having something unique for you to care about or have heard of their name when a poll came out if the players control who stays and who goes. Technically they are doing that anyway by having the power of invitations instead of it only being developer sent invitations beyond the initial batch.

     

     

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