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Originally posted by Ender4 It did not have that in release that is for sure. It had a handful of dungeons that weren't itemized and not a single raid. The game was dying so they added PvE in the expansion. I beta tested DAOC, I was friends with people that worked on it. Their entire point was to not have a PvE based end game like EQ DAOC was the definition of a PvP focused game when it came out. The 1st expansion started to add dungeons, the 3rd added raids. The 4th revisited RvR and the 5th added dragons. The original game PvE was almost an afterthought. They added more and more to compete with the other games out there.
Whoa dude, former beta player here myself, let me refresh your memory.
First of all the game wasn't dying when Mythic started rolling out expansions. After launch, it quickly plateau at about 250k subs and remained there till around the 4th expansion (Catacombs)...and also WoW's launch.
The 1st expansion (SI) added dungeons AND an entire landmass of pure PvE content. The 2nd one added raids and another huge landmass of pure PvE related content (ToA). The third one gave us even more PvE content including instanced PvE dungeons (Catacombs). The 4th one gave us our epic champion weapon along with a long PvE questline to earn it, as well as an island that connected the frontier zones. (Darkness Rising). And the 5th (Labby) gaves us a hybrid RvR/PvE addition to the frontiers with a relic mini-game, and Dragons as you mentioned came after in patch events. New Frontiers was considered to be a patch, but it's the only major PvP content expansion Mythic really undertook.
In my opinion the PvP is the best part about DAoC, but to say that the PvE was an afterthought is ludicrous.... even concerning the launch version. It took 3 months of PvE just to get to PvP at 50 in those days. The ToA expansion was so controversial because you were forced to PvE (countless hours) if you didn't want to get wiped PvP.
'Star Wars Galaxies' in the first 2 to 4 months of first public retail release had the best PvP hands down, want to know why......
No one had a script program yet made for 'SWG'. That and PvP played out like an FPS game too where your skill with the keyboard and mouse was just as important as the character type and skills you had. Plus I had a Bounty Hunter / Pistoleer with the best weapons a Master Weaponsmith could make, it was pure awesomeness.
That was the best PvP fighting I ever had in any mmorpg type game where no one was cheating with scripting otherwise I prefer to fight other players with pure keyboard and mouse skill in FPS only games.
My primary problem with PvP isn't necessarily the PvP itself, but the reason behind it. PvP without goal is pointless. I don't find PvPing for gear to be enjoyable, at least not if that is the ultimate goal. That is where PvP in WoW fails in my opinion.
Give me something more substantial.
* Season Rankings (but not soley this)
* Something that affects the world, like the ability to levy taxes. Imagine being able to build a castle (like in Shadowbane), and levy taxes for your "region" if you're the bad-ass guild in that area.
* Access to a dungeon or area that the other side can't
I will also like to add that the write doesn't really have the right idea when it comes to PvP. PvP, without goal, will not keep players playing. Much like how you can grind away content quickly and get bored, if the goal of PvP is pointless, or there is no real goal; then people will get bored and quit there as well.
Raquelis in various gamesPlayed: EverythingPlaying: League of Legends, EQ1 (Ragefire Lockjaw), Dark Souls II, HearthstoneWants: The WorldAnticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall!!!
PVP only works when both players are equally equipped... otherwise it just becomes "may the best gear win"
that said, i enjoy PVE more than PVP
What DAOC did best was not make 1 dynamic class for all 3 sides. All 3 realms had a "overpowered" mix in their class spec lines. What a Paladin had for alb, a champ did not as a hib. (Although I still feel a paladin should have had a morph like the other 2 realms.) They also made it so if you wanted the high resist gear, you had to get it from PVE raids or PVE quests with a nice balance as well as camping in an open end dungeon so there was always a possibility of an encounter from the other 2 realms.
Darkness Falls delivered this and the instance in the middle of the frontier.However capture of DF by the PVP players allowed them access to go into that dungeon and kill the PVErs farming. So you learned to get used to pvp somewhat or logout when DF was captured by taking the majority of enemy keeps. While in the dungeons you could be killed by another enemy realm if you didn't pay attention. Sure, it wasn't TRUE PvP meaning you couldn't steal their loot but you were rewarded with RPs that you could use to make ur char hit harder, crit more, have more hits, the possibility was endless on how you wanted to make your char.
Their downfall was TOA making people have to raid up to 80+ people in the beginning and the length that some of the raids took to complete as well as their interrupt code and outdated engines. I would go back in a minute if they made an updated game. I had 3 accounts filled with all realms of chars so I could play and learn their weaknesses while bored.
Games now a days don't have that. They have a standard DPS,Healer,Tank, OT/MDPS for all to play nothing slightly different from the enemy realms just different skins which = boredom.
As the above posted said- you have to have both (imo) to be successful and offer a variety.
Rift is the closest to DAOC as far as their "souls" go but its still just a different skin with the same abilities unlike the true king DAOC.
But that is what Bill and Chris 'agrue' about.
Chris has a valid point saying that if game isnt centered arround PVP ... the PVP sucks.
As much as I agree with Bill most of the times... I need to say that Chris summed up this perfectly with that statement.
If you look in EVE like today: You had a fight with 2k people fighting over a territory like 3-4h ago and I bet it was fun for both sides.
Then you got people in games like themeparks ... who will never remember PVP experience same way those guy will (in EVE).
PVE vs PVP is a hard argument but all in all PVP in sandbox games is ussualy unscripted and is NEVER the same nor even close to it. You will never have same encounter no matter what you do. You got thinking people on both sides that learnt many things over the years (not only in gaming).
So if it goes for PVP (my opinion) sandbox games will give people more statisfaction and rage then themeparks (no matter how focused on e-sports). And vice versa.
Good read anyways !
It's pretty simple. You keep them totally seperate.
You want a PvE-centric game with PvP? Fine, you isolate PvP to a different map, and you make it use stats that have NOTHING to do with PvE. Different gear, different stats, therefore no balance issues that affect the PvE side of the game.
You want a PvP-centric game with PvE? Fine, you isolate PvE to a different map, and you make it use stats that have NOTHING to do with PvP. Different gear, different stats, therefore no balance issues that affect the PvP side of the game.
In other words, what Guild Wars 2 did.
You want to spend all your time ganking people in PvP? Cool, the carebears will be out of your way. You want to spend your time picking flowers and crafting? Cool, the gankers will be busy elsewhere. Whichever side is more important to your game is the one that's a bigger world with more content.
Taking PvP content out of MMO's is just another way for developers to rein in people like sheep.
As if it wasn't already boring enough and a lack of social interaction with everyone soloing, doing dailies or just logging in to sit in their house all day bored from doing the same task daily day in day out, no thanks.
I like sugar in my tea, butter on my bread and PvP in my MMO's. Fix some of the gaping problems with pure PvE gameplay and I may change my mind as these days PvE MMO's are anything but "core" experiences.
General experience for me is that PvP in ANY MMO that I have ever played has been a mixed bag. I really haven't seen the MMO that is really built for PvP or with PvP in mind. Sure, there are those that obviously taut how their game revolves around PvP but in the end they usually fall far short of being enjoyable (to me).
On the other hand, PvE has almost (strong emphasis on ALMOST) been pretty good. Pretty much the reason for that is you didn't have to worry or look over your shoulder so much. Sure, there are exceptions. Usually when PvP and PvE do not mix, the PvE seems just fine. Whereas, when you get those games with "open world" PvP in PvE areas, you sometimes just don't have a chance to really experience the PvE side.
My opinion, just make MMO's with PvE only. Leave PvP to games like Call of Duty and Battlefield.
Let's party like it is 1863!
Originally posted by Dr_Negative Originally posted by Ender4 It did not have that in release that is for sure. It had a handful of dungeons that weren't itemized and not a single raid. The game was dying so they added PvE in the expansion. I beta tested DAOC, I was friends with people that worked on it. Their entire point was to not have a PvE based end game like EQ DAOC was the definition of a PvP focused game when it came out. The 1st expansion started to add dungeons, the 3rd added raids. The 4th revisited RvR and the 5th added dragons. The original game PvE was almost an afterthought. They added more and more to compete with the other games out there.
The 2nd expansion added housing and nothing else. The PvE in DAOC at release was pathetic at best, useless is a better term for it. It just was not an important part of the game at all. They were all about RvR.
Originally posted by Gruug[On the other hand, PvE has almost (strong emphasis on ALMOST) been pretty good. Pretty much the reason for that is you didn't have to worry or look over your shoulder so much.
If that is why you think PvE is good you are out of your mind.
Pvp inside of RPG's is soooooooooooooo far away from quality,i have almost zero interest in it.
I am a pvp'r since way back,well before MMORPG's,so i been there done that,yet i see nothing in rpg's that is encouraging.
First of all RPG's are not designed for pvp to work efficiently,properly or in a fair manner,so ya it is not worth the time of day to me.
I still play Unreal pvp and i still find some fun in it,even up playing field aside from latency is as fair and competitive as you can get.Give me versatility in weapon choices, z axis,cover,escape routes,thinking,guessing/prediction,AOE,splash damage and all is good.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by Ender4 The 2nd expansion added housing and nothing else. The PvE in DAOC at release was pathetic at best, useless is a better term for it. It just was not an important part of the game at all. They were all about RvR.
I never really count Foundations as an expansion even though it has been considered that. It was just a big free patch that turned the cities into ghost towns. But again, another content addition to add to the list that did nothing for the RvR endgame. The multitudes of content Mythic released after launch were clearly catered to the PvE'rs, it's pretty much the elephant in the room at this point. They just failed in execution, after the SI expansion.
And I will agree that the PvE was pathetic when judging by today's standards. In 2001-02 though, it was mediocre or at least "ok" in my opinion. You had to do it, and lots of it to reach level 50 and get good gear for endgame PvP. So it at least had some meaning to it, the player earned it so to speak. Either way pickings were slim back then, couldn't really complain.
Good Topic.. Yes, an old one, but one that hasn't gotten tired of defending, whichever side you stand on.. In any case one's stance is always going to be subjective in nature as to what is successful and good.. Lets look at WoW for example since that is one game that has a "decent" population that supports PvP and PvE.. On a scale of 1-10, I give them both a 5.. They both do well in their respective attempts, but both fall short of the highest goal.. In my opinion this happens because of balance issues.. A true PvE centric game will have a vast selection of classes to play, with roles to be filled.. Lets take a look at EQ1 for example.. Imagine a Necro fear kiting a Warrior from WoW.. or a Druid kiting an Engineer from GW2.. Never going to happen because certain PURE PvE classes would be too OP in the PvP world.. It's why WoW had to install certain "get out of jail" free skills and trinkets for the PvP classes, that was aimed to nullify those PvE skills that were too OP for the PvP world..
The only way a game can accommodate both PvP and PvE players is to homogenize the classes and nerf skills into extinction.. When this happens you'll never achieve the true potential of a PvE world.. Let me know when I can charm another player for 15 minutes and make him my pet in the PvP world, then I might begin to change my mind..
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Originally posted by DMKano One thing I've learned over the years, both from personal experience and talking to actual game designers during game shows - you focus on ONE aspect and do it well - so you either make a PvP game or PvE game essentially, doing both and expecting them both to be equally important and balanced is next to impossible. This may be a hard pill to swallow, but thats the hard reality, each game has either PvE or PvP focus, never both, because at least you can do one well - focusing on both systems, you end up failing at both PvE and PvP.
I dunno dark age of camelot too this day is still considered one of the best pvp games todate, it did pve and pvp extremly well. No dev so far has really been able to match it. I do notice pure pvp games tend to just fail horribly, the pro-pvp crowd is a very small minority compared to the pro-pve crowd, its just how it is, best bet is to focus on Pve first, then have some meaningful (read: not arena shit like wow has) pvp system on the side. This way, you'll probally be able to get enough subs on the pve side to keep it going, but also will have pvp for the pvp lovers.
I myself love both aspects, but there really hasn't been a mmorpg with decent pvp in years, and the pve sides have been getting stagnant since all devs seem to do is copy then paste wow's battle system and mechanics lately.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
I agree to what you say.
Its like mixing oil and water its not a good idea but we need both.
So make a good focused pve game or pvp for those who like.
My first mmo was Everquest - That was really a good blast for my gaming experience with other players. The universe was so big so much to explore either alone or in groups. And difficulty of the game i really liked. You need to be in good groups or you would be loosing Experience - climbing down the ladder instead of up. That i really like seeing in todays Mmo's.
Pve is a game of exploring and conquering as a group which is great fun for me - the thing like working together know your role and get ther "critter down"
Pvp - is not my preferable way of gaming, it can actually feel annoying running in the world getting and getting slayed down like a dog. when you just want to explore - and then the pvp'ers contiounsly taking you down and again and then some more. Well not my way of liking.
I say make a world based Pvp for those who like to compete that way.
And then make a world where Pve its hard levelling, maybe even when you die you lose Experience, so you actually have to think of what you are doing.
Like someone here in this post mentioned - old Everquest you had to be fast in the later endgame to get the keys before the others pve'ers so you could nail the Pve Bosses before the other players. But that system had ofcourse its flaws. that you had to wait for a week or so. before you had another attempt.
Make focused Pve games or pvp its my humble opinion.
- Starwars jump to lightspeed.
- World of warcraft.
- Star wars the old republic.
simply love a good and hard Pve Mmo.
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