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I think its over.

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  • macman507macman507 BudapestPosts: 10Member
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by macman507

    Fully agree with OP, even i think im younger than him i feel the same things.

     

    But maybe there is hope on the horizon/out already games worth a look i think:

    (Time will tell if those games worth the time to play)

    -Everquest Next- Time will tell.

    Eldelscrolls Online- More themepark fun.

    -WildStar- Same old themepark.

    -Monster Hunter Online- And again more themepark fun.

    -Blade and Soul-As themepark as it gets, Tera comes to mind.

    -Titan-Who knows

    -Archage Online- Hybrid=good.

    Where is Black Desert..

     

     

     

     

    I wanted to put it there, somehow i forgot to write down.

    Thereisnospoon.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by salaciouscrumbs
    • Easy fast travel with no restrictions (revealed today)
     
    TLDR: Don't count on EQnext but don't lose hope

    Jesus christ. Fuck this game it just keeps getting worse and worse.

     I see this as a good thing.  I don't want restrictions on my travel.  I want the choice to get there fast or to take my time depending on my mood.

    No one is ever in the mood to take their time, that's one lesson past MMOs must teach us. If you allow an easier path it will always be followed.

     

    For some reason when i read that i immediately thought of WoW...

    Sadly i totally agree with you, are players lazy, or just jaded?

    I think its human nature, the only way to stop it is not to have an easy path.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Neo_Viper
    Originally posted by CobraMKIII
    I agree that the MMO(RPG) genre is in a dismal state...
    ... with more players than it ever had. Yep, dismal seems to be the proper word to describe it.

    (/sarcasm)



    With many companies failing to please their audiences I wonder how long it will last. How many companies/studious have shut their doors to their games due to this "more popular than ever" statistics?

    I often find myself wondering... How many of these new, pleased players actually desire RPG in their games. If I look at the impressive numbers, I seem to conclude, not many.

    Well you could also assume they like more than just RPG's, or like a different style of RPG, as there's more than one popular form of roleplaying game.

    I could, but that does not jive with what I read on forums from many of today's happy players.

    "I don't want a virtual world."
    "I don't play to make friends."
    "I want a lobby and instant transport to 'the good stuff'."
    "I want FPS-like twitch combat."
    "Downtime is a waste of my time."

    No, I think my take on it is more accurate. There is not a lot of RPG elements in those kinds of statements.



    RPG do not need virtual worlds, they only need settings in which to play. Even so, every RPG exists within a virtual world, even if that world isn't very dynamic.

    Single player RPGs exist just fine without other people, so other people are not a requirement for RPGs either.

    Ditto for instant transport, FPS combat and an anti-downtime sentiment.

    You are equating "RPG" with a very nebulous "old school" or "sandbox" play style.

    That doesn't mean those players don't enjoy RPGs or MMORPGs. It just means they aren't particularly fond of a particular style of RPG or MMORPG.

    I respectfully disagree :)

    Yes, there are as many ways to define "role playing" as there are people who do so, but some common ground needs to be found in a massively multiplayer online roleplaying game, don't you think? Some common elements?

    Otherwise, Doom, Quake, and Tetris could be called role playing games.




    The minimal definition of RPG is a game where players assume the role of characters in a fictional setting. Doom and Quake are RPGs in the minimal sense.

    However, a more commonly held idea is that RPGs include character development, and the option to act through the character in an ongoing narrative, usually with other people. This only requires a setting, it doesn't require a virtual world. It doesn't require making friends either, since single player games can be RPGs. Even preferring a lobby over a persistent, shared environment doesn't preclude a game from being an RPG. D3 is an RPG, but it doesn't have a persistent, shared environment.

    I hear what you're saying, but these are just not things that decide whether or not games are RPGs or not. They could certainly be things that divide players into "RPG Players" or not.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • picommanderpicommander SolingenPosts: 246Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by snoocky
    Agree to... i gave up on MMO's to.
    But enjoying the hell out of Skyrim :)

    ^This. As long as we still have decent and ambicious single players the world isn't quite lost. Just for me and the MMO market.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    RPG do not need virtual worlds, they only need settings in which to play. Even so, every RPG exists within a virtual world, even if that world isn't very dynamic.

    Single player RPGs exist just fine without other people, so other people are not a requirement for RPGs either.

    Ditto for instant transport, FPS combat and an anti-downtime sentiment.

    You are equating "RPG" with a very nebulous "old school" or "sandbox" play style.

    That doesn't mean those players don't enjoy RPGs or MMORPGs. It just means they aren't particularly fond of a particular style of RPG or MMORPG.
    I respectfully disagree :)

    Yes, there are as many ways to define "role playing" as there are people who do so, but some common ground needs to be found in a massively multiplayer online roleplaying game, don't you think? Some common elements?

    Otherwise, Doom, Quake, and Tetris could be called role playing games.

    The minimal definition of RPG is a game where players assume the role of characters in a fictional setting. Doom and Quake are RPGs in the minimal sense.

    However, a more commonly held idea is that RPGs include character development, and the option to act through the character in an ongoing narrative, usually with other people. This only requires a setting, it doesn't require a virtual world. It doesn't require making friends either, since single player games can be RPGs. Even preferring a lobby over a persistent, shared environment doesn't preclude a game from being an RPG. D3 is an RPG, but it doesn't have a persistent, shared environment.

    I hear what you're saying, but these are just not things that decide whether or not games are RPGs or not. They could certainly be things that divide players into "RPG Players" or not.

    I agree with your concept of RPG. I always thought of Doom and Hexxen as RPGs in the minimal sense. The same with the early SSI games and it would be hard to argue that the character progression there was anything but one-dimensional.

    It would be better to try and define different sorts of RPG experiences rather than shoehorn everything into the same box. I think of RPG as the neighborhood with different houses representing the different styles and approaches.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by salaciouscrumbs
    • Easy fast travel with no restrictions (revealed today)
    TLDR: Don't count on EQnext but don't lose hope

    Jesus christ. Fuck this game it just keeps getting worse and worse.

     I see this as a good thing.  I don't want restrictions on my travel.  I want the choice to get there fast or to take my time depending on my mood.

    No one is ever in the mood to take their time, that's one lesson past MMOs must teach us. If you allow an easier path it will always be followed.

    For some reason when i read that i immediately thought of WoW...

    Sadly i totally agree with you, are players lazy, or just jaded?

    I think its human nature, the only to stop it is not to have an easy path.

    Unless paths are identical there is ALWAYS an easier path. I challenge you to define a system with non-identical paths where one cannot be made easier given the environment. The problem I see is that we're looking at the path designs in a vacuum. I think often game designers intend for paths to have a more equivalent difficulty, at least for a given reward, but when placed in the player environment one shows to have a substantial advantage over the other.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Originally posted by Scot

    Originally posted by Phry

    Originally posted by Scot

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    Originally posted by salaciouscrumbs
    • Easy fast travel with no restrictions (revealed today)
    TLDR: Don't count on EQnext but don't lose hope
    Jesus christ. Fuck this game it just keeps getting worse and worse.
     I see this as a good thing.  I don't want restrictions on my travel.  I want the choice to get there fast or to take my time depending on my mood.
    No one is ever in the mood to take their time, that's one lesson past MMOs must teach us. If you allow an easier path it will always be followed.
    For some reason when i read that i immediately thought of WoW... Sadly i totally agree with you, are players lazy, or just jaded?
    I think its human nature, the only to stop it is not to have an easy path.
    Unless paths are identical there is ALWAYS an easier path. I challenge you to define a system with non-identical paths where one cannot be made easier given the environment. The problem I see is that we're looking at the path designs in a vacuum. I think often game designers intend for paths to have a more equivalent difficulty, at least for a given reward, but when placed in the player environment one shows to have a substantial advantage over the other.

    Perhaps its not so much about the path being easy or hard, but making it entertaining in and of itself. Travel time is treated as an inconvenience because there is no content in it. Sort of like how leveling up is treated these days. There are a lot of people who care very little about questing and just use it to get to the raids. There are others that enjoy questing and could care less about raids. These are two different demographics and one is forced through gated content (questing) in order to get to the stuff they like.

    The same can be said for travelling. Right now, most mmos give you the option of bypassing travelling to get to where you want to go easier. That would be the equivalent of letting raiders bypass leveling content so they can get to the raids asap.

    SO instead of making travelling mandatory or difficult, what about making it optional but enjoyable? Then you would reach an additional demographic who enjoys exploring and seeing the world. I think vistas, day night cycles, and weather are a good start. But I also think things like seasons, migratory animals, and treacherous terrain could go a long way to making travel a pillar in mmo design.

  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Amherest, MAPosts: 1,198Member
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by salaciouscrumbs
    • Easy fast travel with no restrictions (revealed today)
     
    TLDR: Don't count on EQnext but don't lose hope

    Jesus christ. Fuck this game it just keeps getting worse and worse.

     I see this as a good thing.  I don't want restrictions on my travel.  I want the choice to get there fast or to take my time depending on my mood.

    No one is ever in the mood to take their time, that's one lesson past MMOs must teach us. If you allow an easier path it will always be followed.

     

    For some reason when i read that i immediately thought of WoW...

    Sadly i totally agree with you, are players lazy, or just jaded?

    I think its human nature, the only to stop it is not to have an easy path.

    This is truth. If you give people the options, they go where things are more profitable and easier. That means they use the teleports, they go to the instance dungeons, they grind the quests.

    If I wanted to level via grinding mobs in LotRO, I technically could. But the exp is about 50x slower that way and I was never going to get anyone to group with me to do it.

  • crack_foxcrack_fox WellingtonPosts: 402Member
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Scot

    No one is ever in the mood to take their time, that's one lesson past MMOs must teach us. If you allow an easier path it will always be followed. 

    More often than not when I watch someone play Skyrim it's far more normal to see them running around the world, than it is to see them porting all over it.

    Players run around in Skyrim because they know that there are caves and dungeons hidden away off the main path. But even in Skyrim, once you've discovered a place you can subsequently quick travel to it. From what I understand, EQN is going for a similar approach. I think it's an acceptable compromise. It would be nice though if quick travel could at least be accompanied by some sort of graphic showing the character's progress across the map, if only to maintain the illusion of a large game world. DAO did this and was no less an RPG because of it. 

     

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by tristanryan
    I mostly drink beer, read forums and wonder what the f*** happened.

    Sorry for the rant.


    Great great post, OP. Same here, lol; minus the beer.



    Originally posted by vort3x
    I am curious about Elder Scrolls online, but i think that's just because I wanna see just how much they can f*** the Elder Scrolls PI up by making it even more shallow and straight forward, just to make sure any f***ing ape out there that could buy the game will understand it and know how to play it.After all we wouldn't want stupid illiterate people to feel inferior, now would we? :S


    Nice. New slogan for the industry: "We make you feel like a winner; even when you're not."

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PWN_FACE
    Originally posted by Pala

    Its not really just MMOs, everything is being dumbed down, books, movies, tv. It really seems like

    culture has gone into a retard mode and I am sure it is to do with the ideas of mass market and

    the lovwest common denominator ie the idiot majority.

     

    You are right that you will not find what you want here, I have given up and just dip in here and

    there, enjoy bits and pieces of whats on offer but am aware that ultimately what I am playing at

    the moment is not very good.

     

     

    I'm sure a lot of us have seen this, but it must be entered into the record:

     

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

     

     

    Every time I watch that movie I die a little inside; because it's absolutely true.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by Scot
     

    I think its human nature, the only to stop it is not to have an easy path.

    I don't really agree with this when it comes to games. In games with difficulty levels, certainly not everybody plays on easy even though you would finish the game fastest and with the least stress on easy.  Games like Dark Souls are quite popular. I think it shows that a lot of people want to be challenged by their games. 

     

    Problem with MMOs is because a few people want to play on easy mode that's what they have to default to because they haven't figured out a way to give different levels of challenge to different players (at least in the single player experience of MMOs).

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    Indeed difficulty has defaulted to the lowest common denominator, easy as possible. I am not sure what the other poster meant about challenging me to make two paths, one not easier than the other. What I am saying is lets just have one path. This principle works well right across MMO design. One way to get the best PvP gear, one way to get the best PvE gear and so on.

    I liked the idea of Foomerang who said they could try to make travel into something players would enjoy, to give travel content. How about a mini game? You travel across continents by playing a mini game which racks up travel points and achievements.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by Scot
     

    I think its human nature, the only to stop it is not to have an easy path.

    I don't really agree with this when it comes to games. In games with difficulty levels, certainly not everybody plays on easy even though you would finish the game fastest and with the least stress on easy.  Games like Dark Souls are quite popular. I think it shows that a lot of people want to be challenged by their games. 

     

    Problem with MMOs is because a few people want to play on easy mode that's what they have to default to because they haven't figured out a way to give different levels of challenge to different players (at least in the single player experience of MMOs).

    Games like Dark Souls are fun to be sure; but, there is the "right kind of difficulty" and the "wrong kind of difficulty". Many posters here want the wrong kind of difficulty. Games that have less than ideal UIs, limited or no documentation, no tutorial and filled with trivial inconveniences which the player is required to pay attention to.

    It is the easiest way to make a game "hard", but it is also the worst way to do it.

    The right way to make the game hard, is to make the content hard - challenge the player. Players should be provided with a good UI, well made tutorials and documentation. Make their tools the best they can be to tackle the content, but make that content challenging. Force the players to apply their knowledge and abilities and raise the bar ever so slightly when they advance. Give them new tools and teach them new tricks along the way to keep them interested.

    The classic way of making a game.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Originally posted by lizardbones
    The minimal definition of RPG is a game where players assume the role of characters in a fictional setting. Doom and Quake are RPGs in the minimal sense.However, a more commonly held idea is that RPGs include character development, and the option to act through the character in an ongoing narrative, usually with other people. This only requires a setting, it doesn't require a virtual world. It doesn't require making friends either, since single player games can be RPGs. Even preferring a lobby over a persistent, shared environment doesn't preclude a game from being an RPG. D3 is an RPG, but it doesn't have a persistent, shared environment.I hear what you're saying, but these are just not things that decide whether or not games are RPGs or not. They could certainly be things that divide players into "RPG Players" or not.
    I agree with your concept of RPG. I always thought of Doom and Hexxen as RPGs in the minimal sense. The same with the early SSI games and it would be hard to argue that the character progression there was anything but one-dimensional.It would be better to try and define different sorts of RPG experiences rather than shoehorn everything into the same box. I think of RPG as the neighborhood with different houses representing the different styles and approaches.
    That is a good basis with which to start, bones. Call it "BRPG" - Basic Role Playing Game?

    It would be interesting to see what kinds of subsets of RPG the industry could come up with, Torvaldr. We do kind of have "ARPG" for Action Role Playing Games, very similar to "AAG" - Action Adventure Games.

    I would appreciate knowing beforehand what kind of RPG a game is before taking a look at it, just like I would appreciate knowing what kind of MMO a game is.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • sportsfansportsfan BlankenbergePosts: 431Member

    Most will go back to WoW.

    The rest will never touch a MMORPG again.

     

  • sportsfansportsfan BlankenbergePosts: 431Member
    Originally posted by picommander
    Originally posted by snoocky
    Agree to... i gave up on MMO's to.
    But enjoying the hell out of Skyrim :)

    ^This. As long as we still have decent and ambicious single players the world isn't quite lost. Just for me and the MMO market.

    Skyrim is even more of a dead end for long term play ... the moment you realise you enter a world of NPC's...

    Who wants to show off his stamp collection or dress to ... a puppet ?

     

     

  • ScypherothScypheroth P.A, SKPosts: 264Member

    MMORPG's are they way they are because the new generations are lazy...EVERYONE even 5 year old KIDS have cellphones...EVERYONE has access to the internet...EVERYONE is given a new car when they get there drivers...everything is soo easy and handed to them now a days they expect the same lazy routine gameplay in every mmo....why should the kids leave home if they got it good there?

    This genrea is stuck in a infiniate loop....introducing "new" ideas that really arnt new at all...you cant improve on crap...and you cant change the lazyness of america.

  • TheRealDarkeusTheRealDarkeus Harrisonburg, VAPosts: 305Member Uncommon

    I am late to the MMO crowd as my first game was RIFT.  However, I can say this.  MMO games were different than what I was told back when I was not playing.  I expected one thing coming in and found a more solo-friendly social hub RPGs instead.

     

    I don't think the genre is dead though.  As Kickstarter has taught us, there is demand for games that people think are 'niche'.  A demand that will make much money.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by Scot
     

    I think its human nature, the only to stop it is not to have an easy path.

    I don't really agree with this when it comes to games. In games with difficulty levels, certainly not everybody plays on easy even though you would finish the game fastest and with the least stress on easy.  Games like Dark Souls are quite popular. I think it shows that a lot of people want to be challenged by their games. 

     

    Problem with MMOs is because a few people want to play on easy mode that's what they have to default to because they haven't figured out a way to give different levels of challenge to different players (at least in the single player experience of MMOs).

    Games like Dark Souls are fun to be sure; but, there is the "right kind of difficulty" and the "wrong kind of difficulty". Many posters here want the wrong kind of difficulty. Games that have less than ideal UIs, limited or no documentation, no tutorial and filled with trivial inconveniences which the player is required to pay attention to.

    It is the easiest way to make a game "hard", but it is also the worst way to do it.

    The right way to make the game hard, is to make the content hard - challenge the player. Players should be provided with a good UI, well made tutorials and documentation. Make their tools the best they can be to tackle the content, but make that content challenging. Force the players to apply their knowledge and abilities and raise the bar ever so slightly when they advance. Give them new tools and teach them new tricks along the way to keep them interested.

    The classic way of making a game.

    I totally agree, my one difficulty path does not mean you have to have a crap UI and no tutorials. I was thinking more along the lines of too much instant travel for example. The path would have variable difficulty at different stages, but stick with one method. For example there were two ways of getting PvP gear in SWTOR, and yes you guessed it, everyone took the easy route.

     

  • AshstomperAshstomper Quincy, MIPosts: 7Member
    Originally posted by BloodyViking

    Agree with OP.

    I look back at Asheron's Call 1 and realize that it had so much that pretty much no current game has. And that was back in 1999/2000.

    I miss running around in a huge seamless world exploring.

    I miss the danger of dying out there in the wilds and having to run back to my corpse to recover my valuables.

    I miss  the feeling of what we do as players having any impact on an ongoing storyline.

    I miss an evolving world where from month to month the landscape changes, cities disappear and appear.

    I miss twitch combat where your movement has an impact on wether your enemy hits you with his attacks and where you can effectively use terrain to your advantage.

    I miss random loot that feels relevant and broadscoped.

    I miss having my own cottage out there in the wilds where I can hang my trophies.

    I miss killing monsters for trophies that I can give to a collector of such instead of the stupid and inane "Kill XX mobs quests".

    I miss designing my own character with his own skills and attributes.

    I miss being able to choose my weapons from my own taste and not because someone said that "that class cant use XXX!"

    I miss researching spells on my own.

    I am -SO- tired of the cookiecutter corridor-world bullshit thrown at us as Grade AAA MMO games.

    And what I am the MOST tired of of is the young gamers of today which seems so INCREDIBLY entitled to everything. This and that MUST be made EASIER!

    Personaly, I am hoping for a new world war so we can weed out all the DNA trash sitting around in front of the consoles and their WoW-style games. Thats how disgusted I am at the state of the MMO world. You destroyed my games you dingholes!

    ^^^  Exactly this!

  • TakooTakoo dallas, TXPosts: 149Member

    What do you expect.. You have all these new players who have only played wow and any features that make the game hard they dismiss. Corpse runs, full pvp, exp loss, longer grind, no Duty Finder all make these people vomit. The worst part is they have never played a game with any of t hese things in it. Yet they say it sounds awful and they want nothing to do with it.

     

    So we keep getting these face roll solo all the way to 50 games..

     

    I have been playing PSo2 which isn't even really an MMO and it has a better community than any of the current mmos. Mostly because half of the stuff is in japanese and is kinda confusing. Its different so you have to learn some new things. It has a pretty long grind 3-4 months to max level. It has missions that can't be done if you don't have a decent team. So you have community.

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    ike Dark Souls are fun to be sure; but, there is the "right kind of difficulty" and the "wrong kind of difficulty". Many posters here want the wrong kind of difficulty. Games that have less than ideal UIs, limited or no documentation, no tutorial and filled with trivial inconveniences which the player is required to pay attention to.

    It is the easiest way to make a game "hard", but it is also the worst way to do it.

    The right way to make the game hard, is to make the content hard - challenge the player. Players should be provided with a good UI, well made tutorials and documentation. Make their tools the best they can be to tackle the content, but make that content challenging. Force the players to apply their knowledge and abilities and raise the bar ever so slightly when they advance. Give them new tools and teach them new tricks along the way to keep them interested.

     

    +1 to this although I doubt any devs really seek to make games hard through bad UI or tutorial, those things are usually just bad design (or the game being so complex that it requires a convoluted UI and can't be summarized well in a tutorial - I think this only applies to strategy games though.) .

     

    Things like having no fast travel or levelling slowly are not tedious if the game is designed as you describe. If there's constant danger of dying while running back to town and dying actually matters than it becomes part of the challenging gameplay. If it's just like Guild Wars II  with a huge but pretty empty world where there's never any real danger then it's just tedious. Same with leveling - Does every fight force you to know your class and pose a real risk of dying if you do it wrong, or is it just a repetitive face roll  grindfest?

     

  • TakooTakoo dallas, TXPosts: 149Member
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    ike Dark Souls are fun to be sure; but, there is the "right kind of difficulty" and the "wrong kind of difficulty". Many posters here want the wrong kind of difficulty. Games that have less than ideal UIs, limited or no documentation, no tutorial and filled with trivial inconveniences which the player is required to pay attention to.

    It is the easiest way to make a game "hard", but it is also the worst way to do it.

    The right way to make the game hard, is to make the content hard - challenge the player. Players should be provided with a good UI, well made tutorials and documentation. Make their tools the best they can be to tackle the content, but make that content challenging. Force the players to apply their knowledge and abilities and raise the bar ever so slightly when they advance. Give them new tools and teach them new tricks along the way to keep them interested.

     

    +1 to this although I doubt any devs really seek to make games hard through bad UI or tutorial, those things are usually just bad design (or the game being so complex that it requires a convoluted UI and can't be summarized well in a tutorial - I think this only applies to strategy games though.) .

     

    Things like having no fast travel or levelling slowly are not tedious if the game is designed as you describe. If there's constant danger of dying while running back to town and dying actually matters than it becomes part of the challenging gameplay. If it's just like Guild Wars II  with a huge but pretty empty world where there's never any real danger then it's just tedious. Same with leveling - Does every fight force you to know your class and pose a real risk of dying if you do it wrong, or is it just a repetitive face roll  grindfest?

     

    Good luck getting the WoW crew to accept any game where you can get killed running around in open World.

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Ashstomper
    Originally posted by BloodyViking Agree with OP. I look back at Asheron's Call 1 and realize that it had so much that pretty much no current game has. And that was back in 1999/2000. I miss running around in a huge seamless world exploring. I miss the danger of dying out there in the wilds and having to run back to my corpse to recover my valuables. I miss the feeling of what we do as players having any impact on an ongoing storyline. I miss an evolving world where from month to month the landscape changes, cities disappear and appear. I miss twitch combat where your movement has an impact on wether your enemy hits you with his attacks and where you can effectively use terrain to your advantage. I miss random loot that feels relevant and broadscoped. I miss having my own cottage out there in the wilds where I can hang my trophies. I miss killing monsters for trophies that I can give to a collector of such instead of the stupid and inane "Kill XX mobs quests". I miss designing my own character with his own skills and attributes. I miss being able to choose my weapons from my own taste and not because someone said that "that class cant use XXX!" I miss researching spells on my own. I am -SO- tired of the cookiecutter corridor-world bullshit thrown at us as Grade AAA MMO games. And what I am the MOST tired of of is the young gamers of today which seems so INCREDIBLY entitled to everything. This and that MUST be made EASIER! Personaly, I am hoping for a new world war so we can weed out all the DNA trash sitting around in front of the consoles and their WoW-style games. Thats how disgusted I am at the state of the MMO world. You destroyed my games you dingholes!
    ^^^ Exactly this!

    Yes, this is good. Last paragraph is the best.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

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