I've played a ton of MMOs in my day, with EQ1 being my first experience with the genre back in 1999 when the game was originally released. When WoW was released, one of the key features that got me interested was the idea of instanced dungeons. ....
One of the best inventions for mmo online playing.
I do get that instances break immersion, but for me having to metagame by joining an uberguild or camping a specific spot for hours on end waiting for a rare spawn also breaks immersion.
Does not break anything and will never understand those that think it does. Guess such people are not happy with anything (not only in games). No game or any1 can solve their problems.
I've played a ton of MMOs in my day, with EQ1 being my first experience with the genre back in 1999 when the game was originally released. When WoW was released, one of the key features that got me interested was the idea of instanced dungeons. ....
One of the best inventions for mmo online playing.
I do get that instances break immersion, but for me having to metagame by joining an uberguild or camping a specific spot for hours on end waiting for a rare spawn also breaks immersion.
Does not break anything and will never understand those that think it does. Guess such people are not happy with anything (not only in games). No game or any1 can solve their problems.
You have an entire thread of people clearly explaining why instancing is bad, but if you actually read any of it then you wouldn't be able to troll. So troll on you crazy diamond.
As you obviously never read explanations why instancing is actually GOOD. At least more good then bad.
Those that say instancing is bad never had to compete for kills. Sucks when your guild needs X mob to advance, and guild Y comes in and kills it for the week. Thus halting your progression.
In addition, how about phone trees for mob spawns. it would be 3 am and people call you to tell you x mob is up and log on and get a raid together.
Now, I loved EQ back in the day. However, there have been advanced in design that makes game today better.
IMHO, non-progression dungeon should be open like old EQ dungeons. However, progression kills should always be instanced.
Those that say instancing is bad never had to compete for kills. Sucks when your guild needs X mob to advance, and guild Y comes in and kills it for the week. Thus halting your progression.
You're right, I never did, because I played a game that implemented dungeons and mobs and raids in a way that wasn't idiotic. Not that I really blame EverQuest, it was the first of its kind. But other games improved that design substantially.
The things people claim instancing is good for can be achieved through good game design instead of instancing. The thing public dungeons are good for cannot every be achieved with instancing.
I've played a ton of MMOs in my day, with EQ1 being my first experience with the genre back in 1999 when the game was originally released. When WoW was released, one of the key features that got me interested was the idea of instanced dungeons. ....
One of the best inventions for mmo online playing.
I do get that instances break immersion, but for me having to metagame by joining an uberguild or camping a specific spot for hours on end waiting for a rare spawn also breaks immersion.
Does not break anything and will never understand those that think it does. Guess such people are not happy with anything (not only in games). No game or any1 can solve their problems.
You have an entire thread of people clearly explaining why instancing is bad, but if you actually read any of it then you wouldn't be able to troll. So troll on you crazy diamond.
As you obviously never read explanations why instancing is actually GOOD. At least more good then bad.
It's not good for MMOs. It directly undermines what MMOs are good at, and that's lots of people playing together. Instances are the antithesis of that ideal. The best thing a instance can do, best case scenario, is make an MMO play more like a singleplayer game. It'll never be as good as a singleplayer game, which kind of automatically makes it a waste of time to try, but instances can get it close.
But singleplayer games are not MMOs. So instances make for bad MMOs.
I've played a ton of MMOs in my day, with EQ1 being my first experience with the genre back in 1999 when the game was originally released. When WoW was released, one of the key features that got me interested was the idea of instanced dungeons. For me, one of the absolute worst things about EQ was the need to camp rare spawns for loot (often for hours if not days) in order to get many items. Clearing to a boss in a dungeon only to find another group sitting there was the worst. I never actually made it to end game raiding in that game, but from what I have read it seems fairly typical for uberguilds to essentially lock down the content on a given server such that a player's only chance to raid would be to join that specific guild.
I do get that instances break immersion, but for me having to metagame by joining an uberguild or camping a specific spot for hours on end waiting for a rare spawn also breaks immersion.
I know that a lot of you feel very differently about this. I'd love to hear some detailed explanations from those that hate instancing as to why you prefer an uninstanced world and how you deal with (or dealt with) the problem of other players hogging content.
When I played EQ it was common upon entering a dungeon to say Camp check in local chat to see what was camped and what wasn't.
I loved doing these camps, met a lot of really cool people. It was great for socializing while playing.
I've played a ton of MMOs in my day, with EQ1 being my first experience with the genre back in 1999 when the game was originally released. When WoW was released, one of the key features that got me interested was the idea of instanced dungeons. For me, one of the absolute worst things about EQ was the need to camp rare spawns for loot (often for hours if not days) in order to get many items. Clearing to a boss in a dungeon only to find another group sitting there was the worst. I never actually made it to end game raiding in that game, but from what I have read it seems fairly typical for uberguilds to essentially lock down the content on a given server such that a player's only chance to raid would be to join that specific guild.
I do get that instances break immersion, but for me having to metagame by joining an uberguild or camping a specific spot for hours on end waiting for a rare spawn also breaks immersion.
I know that a lot of you feel very differently about this. I'd love to hear some detailed explanations from those that hate instancing as to why you prefer an uninstanced world and how you deal with (or dealt with) the problem of other players hogging content.
I think it's more the pvp crowd (owpvp) turned off by it as the more instancing you have, the less owpvp you have. So...just a matter of your choice. I personally am an avid owpvper, therefor I hate instancing. For a pve game, I see no problem with it.
Incognito www.incognito-gaming.us "You're either with us or against us"
PvP is definitely a huge part of why I didn't like instancing. Killing the community is a big part. Making it feel like a game rather than a world. Having all group content tuned for a specific number of players. Putting loot into the game at way too fast of a pace. They make a game where you never have to compete or compromise with others, this is NOT a good thing.
The good parts are mainly needing to create less content to support a server. That is pretty much the only good part and it can be fixed by creating more content, having multiple spawn points for rares and allowing multiple rares to drop the same type of items.
Instances are nothing but a bandaid when it comes to group based content.
Now solo instances to tell a specific story etc, those work ok and they do provide some good.
It isn't that running an instanced dungeon can't be fun, because it certainly can be. The issue most have with it is that it hurts the rest of the game in some way. If they created enough content, spread out bosses enough etc you can have an open world dungeon system and it would be more fun and create a better game.
I think the next thing is probably going to be randomly build dungeons. It seems gaming has hit a point where they can do some nice things with randomness now. Most aRPG are adding it and EQ:N is going to have some procedural developed content.
I've played a ton of MMOs in my day, with EQ1 being my first experience with the genre back in 1999 when the game was originally released. When WoW was released, one of the key features that got me interested was the idea of instanced dungeons. For me, one of the absolute worst things about EQ was the need to camp rare spawns for loot (often for hours if not days) in order to get many items. Clearing to a boss in a dungeon only to find another group sitting there was the worst. I never actually made it to end game raiding in that game, but from what I have read it seems fairly typical for uberguilds to essentially lock down the content on a given server such that a player's only chance to raid would be to join that specific guild.
I do get that instances break immersion, but for me having to metagame by joining an uberguild or camping a specific spot for hours on end waiting for a rare spawn also breaks immersion.
I know that a lot of you feel very differently about this. I'd love to hear some detailed explanations from those that hate instancing as to why you prefer an uninstanced world and how you deal with (or dealt with) the problem of other players hogging content.
I think it's more the pvp crowd (owpvp) turned off by it as the more instancing you have, the less owpvp you have. So...just a matter of your choice. I personally am an avid owpvper, therefor I hate instancing. For a pve game, I see no problem with it.
To see why it ruins PvE, see the first post in this thread.
Originally posted by evilizedinstancing is really just based on hardware limitations so hopefully going forward we will start to see larger worlds with more content and less of a need to instance things.
No it isn't... we've had massive worlds capable of seamless zoning without instances since 1998.
The worlds in all MMORPG today are pretty tiny, even old ones like EQ. Imagine a world where instead of 4 dungeons for a level range you had 40. In a world like that your issue with instancing would no longer exist.
Instances happen because devs don't want to make as much content and because they haven't come up with good ways to create dynamic content yet. It is turning the games into a bunch of tiny boxes that we all play in instead of a real world.
Yes, my issues with instances would still exist. As for what you're describing, Vanguard has more dungeons than you could ever hope to find, much less complete at any given level. All unzoned and uninstanced.
Instances happen because devs don't look at how previous MMOs designed their games without instancing. They don' tlook at DAoC and figure out how there were never any camping issues. They look at WoW and clone it.
I agree.
And yes Vanguard has so many dungeons that it would be impossible to do them all on two or even three characters. On top of that some of them are vast and take days to do, these are just group dungeons i'm talking about as well.
I've played a ton of MMOs in my day, with EQ1 being my first experience with the genre back in 1999 when the game was originally released. When WoW was released, one of the key features that got me interested was the idea of instanced dungeons. For me, one of the absolute worst things about EQ was the need to camp rare spawns for loot (often for hours if not days) in order to get many items. Clearing to a boss in a dungeon only to find another group sitting there was the worst. I never actually made it to end game raiding in that game, but from what I have read it seems fairly typical for uberguilds to essentially lock down the content on a given server such that a player's only chance to raid would be to join that specific guild.
I do get that instances break immersion, but for me having to metagame by joining an uberguild or camping a specific spot for hours on end waiting for a rare spawn also breaks immersion.
I know that a lot of you feel very differently about this. I'd love to hear some detailed explanations from those that hate instancing as to why you prefer an uninstanced world and how you deal with (or dealt with) the problem of other players hogging content.
When I played EQ it was common upon entering a dungeon to say Camp check in local chat to see what was camped and what wasn't.
I loved doing these camps, met a lot of really cool people. It was great for socializing while playing.
Yes and this is what missing, features that build community's.
I do not subscribe to the it's either all bad or all good rationale of people on this forum.Like mostly everything in life it's not that simple and only those with blinders and agendas choose to see it as simple.
I personally like some types of instancing like for group dungeons as setting exact numbers for those fights allows for more creative and exact boss fights and mechanic design than open dungeons.I also don't mind a few key instances for personal story as long as it's for key moments and not being done constantly.
I do however hate the splitting of a games non dungeon world into multiple instances of it's self and splitting the population of a server up into non massive groups.I hated it in AoC and hated in every game since.
I however acknowledge that others feel differently from I and that all these things exist because of player demands.
Dungeon instances exist because players in previous games complained constantly about kill stealing and having to queue for boss spawns.
Personal Story instances exist because people complained about bottlenecks in their story progression.
Highly instanced world exist because players complained about MMO graphics being worse than single player games so the devs said Ok here's better graphics but the cost is we have to create multiple instances of zones because we can now have less people on screen at once with an acceptable amount of graphical lag.
If any dev tries to stylize graphics or use lower quality graphics to accommodate a seamless non instanced world the forums are flooded with complaints about said graphics.
Used a LFG / queue feature to find a group for an instance
Continued playing while the game found other players my level
Chose to join the team when the time came
Went to the instance, had fun, even learned a couple things about the game
Met some cool folks and even made a couple in-game friends
What is the problem with instances?
It is one of several subjects for which gamers have varied opinions. Like throwing a lit match into a gas-filled room, such subjects often turn from a good-natured sharing of opinions into 10-page threads of enraged arguments, where the know-it-alls bicker senselessly about how their definition of games is superior to everyone else's definition of games.
What's next? Go to a fast food place, order a burger and fries...and complain that the business offers you a choice of ketchup or mayo to go with your fries? What is the argument there? That they're breaking the immersion of your eating experience?
Communities in-game are what you make them to be. Instances are like tools you can use at your own discretion.
Originally posted by iJustWant What's next? Go to a fast food place, order a burger and fries...and complain that the business offers you a choice of ketchup or mayo to go with your fries? What is the argument there? That they're breaking the immersion of your eating experience? Communities in-game are what you make them to be. Instances are like tools you can use at your own discretion.
No, go to fast food place and then say that it isn't as good as a sit down restaurant. That is the point here. Nobody is saying instances can't be fun, having a game that isn't' built around them is just a much deeper game and for those who enjoy a deeper game it is more fun.
That is also a very rosy outlook on instances. Usually it is 5 people who never talk, never see each other and bicker over everything that goes wrong. The LFG tool instances are a disaster as often as they are pleasant. Instances without a dungeon finder end up being sitting there LFG for hours sometimes because the instances are tuned for a full balanced group and you aren't allowed to have fun with anything less.
I can walk into an open world dungeon and goof around at zone solo while I wait for friends to show up and we can do earlier parts of the dungeon while we wait on a full group etc. I don't have to live just in a full group to do anything.
Originally posted by iJustWant What's next? Go to a fast food place, order a burger and fries...and complain that the business offers you a choice of ketchup or mayo to go with your fries? What is the argument there? That they're breaking the immersion of your eating experience? Communities in-game are what you make them to be. Instances are like tools you can use at your own discretion.
No, go to fast food place and then say that it isn't as good as a sit down restaurant. That is the point here. Nobody is saying instances can't be fun, having a game that isn't' built around them is just a much deeper game and for those who enjoy a deeper game it is more fun.
That is also a very rosy outlook on instances. Usually it is 5 people who never talk, never see each other and bicker over everything that goes wrong. The LFG tool instances are a disaster as often as they are pleasant. Instances without a dungeon finder end up being sitting there LFG for hours sometimes because the instances are tuned for a full balanced group and you aren't allowed to have fun with anything less.
I can walk into an open world dungeon and goof around at zone solo while I wait for friends to show up and we can do earlier parts of the dungeon while we wait on a full group etc. I don't have to live just in a full group to do anything.
Well said - I totally agree there. I did that often in EQ, kill some junk mobs at the front of Sol A or B and try to get a tiny bit of experience or cash while I waited for my group. I really cant stand instancing. Hope we see MMOs go back away from them.
Put it to you this way , when you walk into a room. Do you have to wait for the room to load in and objects to finish loading. No. It breaks the continuity of the world a game is trying to create or maintain. SWG just or any open world MMO has that continuity. That being said SWG failed in that zoning would break that feeling just a it does in Vanguard or any other game that uses this mechanic, to a degree. Clunking into a zone can be very unpleasant. instancing is useful , but the current over use is just downright annoying nowadays.
Originally posted by iJustWant What's next? Go to a fast food place, order a burger and fries...and complain that the business offers you a choice of ketchup or mayo to go with your fries? What is the argument there? That they're breaking the immersion of your eating experience? Communities in-game are what you make them to be. Instances are like tools you can use at your own discretion.
No, go to fast food place and then say that it isn't as good as a sit down restaurant. That is the point here. Nobody is saying instances can't be fun, having a game that isn't' built around them is just a much deeper game and for those who enjoy a deeper game it is more fun.
That is also a very rosy outlook on instances. Usually it is 5 people who never talk, never see each other and bicker over everything that goes wrong. The LFG tool instances are a disaster as often as they are pleasant. Instances without a dungeon finder end up being sitting there LFG for hours sometimes because the instances are tuned for a full balanced group and you aren't allowed to have fun with anything less.
I can walk into an open world dungeon and goof around at zone solo while I wait for friends to show up and we can do earlier parts of the dungeon while we wait on a full group etc. I don't have to live just in a full group to do anything.
I'd say that the experience I'd shared was a rare rose. Most of the time, there is little to no socialization at all, and the other members of the group may as well be NPCs.
The point of my opinion is choice.
To stay mostly with the analogy, why do people go to a fast food place, if they want the sit-down restaurant experience? They have a choice to go to the restaurant.
To stay somewhat on topic of this thread, why do gamers play games that are instance-based, then complain about instances? They have the choice to play another game.
I think the issue is most people for some odd reason assume that challenge can be kept without having stuff instanced. Instances weren't set up for limitations as much as to provide a challenge for a group to accomplish (atleast the type most people associate instances with being dungeons). Having them as 'outdoor' occurances would make it very difficult to create content taht is challenging for players to overcome. Its IMPOSSIBLE to do this and do it right. Theres a reason dynamic events are typically very easy, since you have both a mixture of good and bad players, needing something simple for both players not quite as 'hardcore' players as well as supporting the fact large groups even with the greatest of computers would be near impossible to support the numbers without some lag even with well optimized code.
Dont get me wrong, there are cases I feel instances are over-used and I do want it to be less pushed off, but I feel the concept of taking them away completely is stupid unless perhaps your going for a pure pvp focused game.
Originally posted by iJustWant I'd say that the experience I'd shared was a rare rose. Most of the time, there is little to no socialization at all, and the other members of the group may as well be NPCs.
The point of my opinion is choice.
To stay mostly with the analogy, why do people go to a fast food place, if they want the sit-down restaurant experience? They have a choice to go to the restaurant.
To stay somewhat on topic of this thread, why do gamers play games that are instance-based, then complain about instances? They have the choice to play another game.
But they don't have that choice. In this era of the WoW clone they are all instanced. The choice is to play a dead game if you don't want instances. We just want a few new games to come out that aren't.
Originally posted by iJustWant I'd say that the experience I'd shared was a rare rose. Most of the time, there is little to no socialization at all, and the other members of the group may as well be NPCs.
The point of my opinion is choice.
To stay mostly with the analogy, why do people go to a fast food place, if they want the sit-down restaurant experience? They have a choice to go to the restaurant.
To stay somewhat on topic of this thread, why do gamers play games that are instance-based, then complain about instances? They have the choice to play another game.
But they don't have that choice. In this era of the WoW clone they are all instanced. The choice is to play a dead game if you don't want instances. We just want a few new games to come out that aren't.
You want an AAA budget game. There are lots of mmos that have what you're looking for...they just don't look like they were created by micheal bay.
Originally posted by iJustWant I'd say that the experience I'd shared was a rare rose. Most of the time, there is little to no socialization at all, and the other members of the group may as well be NPCs.
The point of my opinion is choice.
To stay mostly with the analogy, why do people go to a fast food place, if they want the sit-down restaurant experience? They have a choice to go to the restaurant.
To stay somewhat on topic of this thread, why do gamers play games that are instance-based, then complain about instances? They have the choice to play another game.
But they don't have that choice. In this era of the WoW clone they are all instanced. The choice is to play a dead game if you don't want instances. We just want a few new games to come out that aren't.
You want an AAA budget game. There are lots of mmos that have what you're looking for...they just don't look like they were created by micheal bay.
These are forums, and people are not wrong to post and say they would like a new AAA mmo that isn't over instanced. That aside, will it happen? Who knows, but people aren't villains for asking. Before f2p became the popular model, people posted left and right saying they wanted everything to go this route, and people would jump on them and tell them to go away, quit dreaming and such...
If you don't ask, you will never get it (may not anyway). Their is a vacuum for this model, the question is, are their enough people to make a well executed, not over instanced AAA mmo successful? I doubt anyone knows, and the unknown doesn't attract money. I personally think their is, but it still has to be well done, not just, "Hey it is open world, come pay". Would it be the next WoW? Highly doubt it, a lot of people started mmos with WoW, so that's what they know and want. You don't have to be the next WoW to be successful though.
Like I said earlier, it would be nice if they came out with something that was just 50% open dungeons, heck that would be a big change for a AAA mmo.
Without misery, how good can things feel? What do I mean? If you never experience grief, frustration, failure, pain, discomfort, etc, how do you measure just how good an accomplishment is. This is only one aspect to my anti-instancing opinion, but it's a good one for me. It helped me understand why it was that I liked games like EQ where you had to spawn camp, or try to steal that kill to get credit.
I just did a quest line last night in Pirate 101 with a couple other players where the main battles were all instanced. The number of mobs and their difficulty level was tailored to the size and level of our group members. Lots of fun travel together with plenty of challenging battles.
Oddly, despite the complete absence of anyone killstealing, ninja looting, PKing, blocking, griefing, tagging, training or creating any other sources of frustration or failure for our group, we all had a great time.
It didn't just feel good. It felt great.
I look forward to logging in tonight, meeting up with a couple people and having a similar experience. I am quite sure it will feel great tonight, too.
I hope that someday you can eventually experience the feeling of a good gaming session without needing misery to do so, so that such an experience is no longer a mystifying concept to you.
I was out RVRing with my guildmates on my DAOC freeshard and I managed to steal the killspam for about 6 kills, PK'd the heck out of some high realm rank Albs that ran up on our zerg, and did it again when they came back. Afterwards I ran over to the Alb frontiers and gray ganked some lowbies who suddenly had a very bad evening.
Sometimes I'm on the receiving end of the same, and it's exactly the sort of game play I look for. Hopefully one day you'll come to experience such and the concept will no longer be mystifying to you either.
We game for different reasons....
The issue here, I think, is that devs have determined the open world, camping, ninja looting, PKing, ganking lifestyle drives off a significant percentage of players. It did so in the 'old days', it does so now. When you didn't have lots of alternatives, it was a tougher choice. Nowadays, you can tailor your experiance a bit more. Until the old school fans can convince the money people that they'll make a profit catering to them, you're not going to see high dollar games made in that image.
Instancing solved problems. Maybe not the best overall solution - perhaps. But folks who deny that there were problems in the first place are delusional. You may have liked those problems, but unless you can support games that cater to your particular demographic, you won't see a lot of major development.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Personally turned off by instancing because I play MMORPG,'s not MSORPG's (Masivly singleplayer online) games. Instancing is just another developer tool used to further segregate an already dwindling social audience. I play MMO's for the interaction & socialization with my fellow gamers. The more games I play with instancing the more I notice that the entire instance goes by without one player saying a single word to another player. Where as games I play that don't utilize much instancing (Vanguard is a prime example) , I'm noticing I talk with a LOT more folks.
I see so many people say that they play MMO's solo because they like playing alone, but still want to know that there are other people out there that they can talk with and connect with. I respond to those people by saying, "Go play a singleplayer game and run facebook in the background or on your tablet at the same time." You will get a better game and the same socialization that way.
As you obviously never read explanations why instancing is actually GOOD. At least more good then bad.
It's not good for MMOs. It directly undermines what MMOs are good at, and that's lots of people playing together. Instances are the antithesis of that ideal. The best thing a instance can do, best case scenario, is make an MMO play more like a singleplayer game. It'll never be as good as a singleplayer game, which kind of automatically makes it a waste of time to try, but instances can get it close.
Do you feel the same way about having multiple servers for an MMO?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
One of the best inventions for mmo online playing.
Does not break anything and will never understand those that think it does. Guess such people are not happy with anything (not only in games). No game or any1 can solve their problems.
As you obviously never read explanations why instancing is actually GOOD. At least more good then bad.
Those that say instancing is bad never had to compete for kills. Sucks when your guild needs X mob to advance, and guild Y comes in and kills it for the week. Thus halting your progression.
In addition, how about phone trees for mob spawns. it would be 3 am and people call you to tell you x mob is up and log on and get a raid together.
Now, I loved EQ back in the day. However, there have been advanced in design that makes game today better.
IMHO, non-progression dungeon should be open like old EQ dungeons. However, progression kills should always be instanced.
You're right, I never did, because I played a game that implemented dungeons and mobs and raids in a way that wasn't idiotic. Not that I really blame EverQuest, it was the first of its kind. But other games improved that design substantially.
The things people claim instancing is good for can be achieved through good game design instead of instancing. The thing public dungeons are good for cannot every be achieved with instancing.
It's not good for MMOs. It directly undermines what MMOs are good at, and that's lots of people playing together. Instances are the antithesis of that ideal. The best thing a instance can do, best case scenario, is make an MMO play more like a singleplayer game. It'll never be as good as a singleplayer game, which kind of automatically makes it a waste of time to try, but instances can get it close.
But singleplayer games are not MMOs. So instances make for bad MMOs.
When I played EQ it was common upon entering a dungeon to say Camp check in local chat to see what was camped and what wasn't.
I loved doing these camps, met a lot of really cool people. It was great for socializing while playing.
I think it's more the pvp crowd (owpvp) turned off by it as the more instancing you have, the less owpvp you have. So...just a matter of your choice. I personally am an avid owpvper, therefor I hate instancing. For a pve game, I see no problem with it.
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
PvP is definitely a huge part of why I didn't like instancing. Killing the community is a big part. Making it feel like a game rather than a world. Having all group content tuned for a specific number of players. Putting loot into the game at way too fast of a pace. They make a game where you never have to compete or compromise with others, this is NOT a good thing.
The good parts are mainly needing to create less content to support a server. That is pretty much the only good part and it can be fixed by creating more content, having multiple spawn points for rares and allowing multiple rares to drop the same type of items.
Instances are nothing but a bandaid when it comes to group based content.
Now solo instances to tell a specific story etc, those work ok and they do provide some good.
It isn't that running an instanced dungeon can't be fun, because it certainly can be. The issue most have with it is that it hurts the rest of the game in some way. If they created enough content, spread out bosses enough etc you can have an open world dungeon system and it would be more fun and create a better game.
I think the next thing is probably going to be randomly build dungeons. It seems gaming has hit a point where they can do some nice things with randomness now. Most aRPG are adding it and EQ:N is going to have some procedural developed content.
To see why it ruins PvE, see the first post in this thread.
I agree.
And yes Vanguard has so many dungeons that it would be impossible to do them all on two or even three characters. On top of that some of them are vast and take days to do, these are just group dungeons i'm talking about as well.
Yes and this is what missing, features that build community's.
I do not subscribe to the it's either all bad or all good rationale of people on this forum.Like mostly everything in life it's not that simple and only those with blinders and agendas choose to see it as simple.
I personally like some types of instancing like for group dungeons as setting exact numbers for those fights allows for more creative and exact boss fights and mechanic design than open dungeons.I also don't mind a few key instances for personal story as long as it's for key moments and not being done constantly.
I do however hate the splitting of a games non dungeon world into multiple instances of it's self and splitting the population of a server up into non massive groups.I hated it in AoC and hated in every game since.
I however acknowledge that others feel differently from I and that all these things exist because of player demands.
Dungeon instances exist because players in previous games complained constantly about kill stealing and having to queue for boss spawns.
Personal Story instances exist because people complained about bottlenecks in their story progression.
Highly instanced world exist because players complained about MMO graphics being worse than single player games so the devs said Ok here's better graphics but the cost is we have to create multiple instances of zones because we can now have less people on screen at once with an acceptable amount of graphical lag.
If any dev tries to stylize graphics or use lower quality graphics to accommodate a seamless non instanced world the forums are flooded with complaints about said graphics.
So Players are jsut as much to blame as devs.
Just last night, I:
No, go to fast food place and then say that it isn't as good as a sit down restaurant. That is the point here. Nobody is saying instances can't be fun, having a game that isn't' built around them is just a much deeper game and for those who enjoy a deeper game it is more fun.
That is also a very rosy outlook on instances. Usually it is 5 people who never talk, never see each other and bicker over everything that goes wrong. The LFG tool instances are a disaster as often as they are pleasant. Instances without a dungeon finder end up being sitting there LFG for hours sometimes because the instances are tuned for a full balanced group and you aren't allowed to have fun with anything less.
I can walk into an open world dungeon and goof around at zone solo while I wait for friends to show up and we can do earlier parts of the dungeon while we wait on a full group etc. I don't have to live just in a full group to do anything.
Well said - I totally agree there. I did that often in EQ, kill some junk mobs at the front of Sol A or B and try to get a tiny bit of experience or cash while I waited for my group. I really cant stand instancing. Hope we see MMOs go back away from them.
I'd say that the experience I'd shared was a rare rose. Most of the time, there is little to no socialization at all, and the other members of the group may as well be NPCs.
The point of my opinion is choice.
To stay mostly with the analogy, why do people go to a fast food place, if they want the sit-down restaurant experience? They have a choice to go to the restaurant.
To stay somewhat on topic of this thread, why do gamers play games that are instance-based, then complain about instances? They have the choice to play another game.
I think the issue is most people for some odd reason assume that challenge can be kept without having stuff instanced. Instances weren't set up for limitations as much as to provide a challenge for a group to accomplish (atleast the type most people associate instances with being dungeons). Having them as 'outdoor' occurances would make it very difficult to create content taht is challenging for players to overcome. Its IMPOSSIBLE to do this and do it right. Theres a reason dynamic events are typically very easy, since you have both a mixture of good and bad players, needing something simple for both players not quite as 'hardcore' players as well as supporting the fact large groups even with the greatest of computers would be near impossible to support the numbers without some lag even with well optimized code.
Dont get me wrong, there are cases I feel instances are over-used and I do want it to be less pushed off, but I feel the concept of taking them away completely is stupid unless perhaps your going for a pure pvp focused game.
You want an AAA budget game. There are lots of mmos that have what you're looking for...they just don't look like they were created by micheal bay.
These are forums, and people are not wrong to post and say they would like a new AAA mmo that isn't over instanced. That aside, will it happen? Who knows, but people aren't villains for asking. Before f2p became the popular model, people posted left and right saying they wanted everything to go this route, and people would jump on them and tell them to go away, quit dreaming and such...
If you don't ask, you will never get it (may not anyway). Their is a vacuum for this model, the question is, are their enough people to make a well executed, not over instanced AAA mmo successful? I doubt anyone knows, and the unknown doesn't attract money. I personally think their is, but it still has to be well done, not just, "Hey it is open world, come pay". Would it be the next WoW? Highly doubt it, a lot of people started mmos with WoW, so that's what they know and want. You don't have to be the next WoW to be successful though.
Like I said earlier, it would be nice if they came out with something that was just 50% open dungeons, heck that would be a big change for a AAA mmo.
The issue here, I think, is that devs have determined the open world, camping, ninja looting, PKing, ganking lifestyle drives off a significant percentage of players. It did so in the 'old days', it does so now. When you didn't have lots of alternatives, it was a tougher choice. Nowadays, you can tailor your experiance a bit more. Until the old school fans can convince the money people that they'll make a profit catering to them, you're not going to see high dollar games made in that image.
Instancing solved problems. Maybe not the best overall solution - perhaps. But folks who deny that there were problems in the first place are delusional. You may have liked those problems, but unless you can support games that cater to your particular demographic, you won't see a lot of major development.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Personally turned off by instancing because I play MMORPG,'s not MSORPG's (Masivly singleplayer online) games. Instancing is just another developer tool used to further segregate an already dwindling social audience. I play MMO's for the interaction & socialization with my fellow gamers. The more games I play with instancing the more I notice that the entire instance goes by without one player saying a single word to another player. Where as games I play that don't utilize much instancing (Vanguard is a prime example) , I'm noticing I talk with a LOT more folks.
I see so many people say that they play MMO's solo because they like playing alone, but still want to know that there are other people out there that they can talk with and connect with. I respond to those people by saying, "Go play a singleplayer game and run facebook in the background or on your tablet at the same time." You will get a better game and the same socialization that way.
You spend a hell of a lot of time queueing and waiting to do stuff
Do you feel the same way about having multiple servers for an MMO?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre