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p2w doesn't exist in AAA mmo's, please stop pretending it does.

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  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by SirFubar

    Anyone who says otherwise clearly never played a P2W game and are just mad that some people can pay to progress faster.

     

    If people dislike something, they are going to search around for a term to apply to it.  If you don't want them using P2W, then offer them an alternative term ... perhaps "pay to accelerate"?   

    The problem I run into with these arguments is that they seem like variations of the same idea to me.  Even if I ignore the various concepts of winning and focus only on gear curves, most MMOs have a soft cap on gear where there are rarer and rarer tiers with no practical way to obtain perfect gear ... so a hard "best gear available through item shop" and a soft "item shop lets you accelerate further up the treadmill" are functionally identical to everyone but the most extreme of hardcore players.  I understand that may make for a qualitiative difference for these players, but I think they need to equally realize that it makes *no* difference to most players.

    I disagree generally with this.  The pay 2 accelerate no problem though :)

    I do think most people mark a difference, a significant difference between best gear available through item shop and item shop lets you accelerate up the treadmill.  I do think to most people it is not about how fast it takes you as they recognize that some do it in weeks and others take it in years. 

    Especially because in most games when you are at max level it still takes time to get the gear.  So accelerating to max level is pointless when you still need to put in the time at max level.  They feel that buying the gear avoids having to run the dungeons, whereas they really don't care about the journey to the end game.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Yup, I regret my use of of the term "most players".  My bad, I don't have stats to back up such a claim ... it's purely subjective perception which is biased by my personal surroundings.
  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,767Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rojo6934
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by tommygunzII
    How many of these games can you win without paying anything? Excluding P2P.

    You expect developers to all line up to give 100% of the game out for free with no restrictions and hope they can get enough money off of selling funny hats to keep the lights on?

    I have heard EQ2 called P2W because you can't equip high level gear without buying items off the cash shop.  That's absurd if you ask me.  It's a business model decision not a game play decision to close off parts of the game to people unless they pay.  Your not buying advantage your buying access.  

    What is pay 2 win is when those costs are not well disclosed up front to consumers.  Random item boxes with unique powerful gear and endless + stat crafting bonuses that require increasingly expensive cash shop items to make are examples of pay 2 win.   if a company wants to give me a free trial to play the lower levels and ask that I either subscribe or take part in the cash shop in order to play higher level parts of the game I have no issue with that as long as it's disclosed up front and the costs are clearly laid out.

    you are confusing 2 different things. Free2Play restrictions in a hybrid model are OK if they are done right. Selling power is not right no matter how restricted or unrestricted your game is.

    You mention EQ2 high level gear restriction. The same happened in Swtor and Vanguard. I am totally OK when that restriction ONLY if i can purchase an account wide cash shop unlock so i can wear that gear. I dont think any of them sell that so i only play (played) those games for a little bit knowing when i need that gear i wont be able to use it so i quit and they missed my money, unfortunately. Cash shop can be done right, they can restrict the free players but they need to know how to do it in a way that they entice people to use the cash shop to lift the restrictions, or encourage them to subscribe with enough perks or content.

    I dont think Random gambling boxes are pay to win because nobody knows what they will get. With that said, they are the most straight forward scam  a game can have.

    Edited a typo...

    All three games you mention offer that in the form of a subscription.  The subscription in all three games completely removes the need for the cash shop other than for fluff.  I subscribe to EQ2 and have not purchased a single item out of the cash shop other than for fluff and even at that they give me way more station cash each month than I speed so I actually end up having a fairly large amount of cash shop currency saved up if there ever is something I want or for other SOE games like PS2.

    Here is what I will saw about EQ2.  My personal opinion is that expansions should be included with the cost of the subscription.  Old expansions are but the most current one never is.  I have always felt it's double dipping to both charge people for expansions and ongoing subscription fees for a MMO.  That might have worked a few years ago but I really think it's a turn off in todays game landscape.  

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Same with mine haha.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • ropeniceropenice Lake Worth, FLPosts: 587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by alkarionlog

    depend on the game xp potions can and can not be a p2w, if a game require you to grind over 5 hours to lvl a certain lvl but with a  xp potion or premium you just need 1 hour or less then its pay to win

     

    pay to win is mostly things will make your char be stronger or forces you hard to spend if not the game can't be enjoyed, the ones I know and I remember right now are DDO(sorry op buying tomes who gives +5 on stats is pay to win, also limiting part of the game is annoying) SWtor, most if not all chinese games (yes paying for higher chance to lvl gear is pay to win).

     

    but the worse problem is the players, they know the game is pay to win but as long he can pay and keep on top echelon of his server he don't care till he find someone more stupid to spend even more then him then he start to cry and quit the game saying its pay to win, would be so easy for the whole genre if plyers just stoped playing or at least paying for this kind of game or at least limit his paying to 15 a month, doing so would show the devs they can't milk players with garbage and would force then to up they games.

    I don't get the DDO reference. How does having a stat boost you can buy make it p2w? There isn't any pvp (besides dual-type which mean nothing), so how can someones stats being higher win you anything? Just because they have items that u can't get in-game, doesn't make it p2w if it has no impact on others gameplay (nor xp boosts). And yes it is annoying to freeloaders to have content limited if they don't pay, but how else would this game as f2p make enough to stay open and add content (which they have done much since f2p switch). With unlimited free to all content few would use CS and they would be out of biz. Not being cheap and 10/month solves that problem. I played with sub and never had any problem or even notice of others spending habits in CS, so didn't notice anyone winning or me losing.

    To OP, I agree that too many create silly things as p2w that gives no advantage. Seems like most of them just want everything free. I hate CS and would prefer the sub model, as long as the devs make a good enough game to deserve any money. To me, if a game isn't worth 10-15/month, then it isn't even worth playing.

    Edit: Of course games with pvp, resource control, realistic economics, crafting, etc are different as you are competing against others and not just engaging with content.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    If you don't pay your monthly sub you can't win. So yes they are p2w.

    Yeah.

    And since i don't p2w, i don't play sub-only games.

  • Swids2010Swids2010 plymouthPosts: 244Member

    As I said earlier some of you people have clearly not played a P2W game because if you had you would all be singing a different tune.

    PAY 2 WIN IS WHEN YOU CAN BUY SOMETHING FROM A CASH STORE AS IN REAL MONEY THAT IS UNATAINABLE IN GAME AND GIVES A MASSIVE ADVANTAGE OVER NON CASH SHOP USERS.

    Two best examples of this are APB at one point you could buy upgraded version of weapons armour and cars that were unattainable by actually playing the game. And these were slightly better the were massively more powerful. Another one which I believe has been removed now was a AMMO in World of tanks that was a lot better than anything attainable in game.

    If you can earn something in game that is also in a cash shop it is not pay to win. Some of you people need to get over yourselves.

    image
  • 123443211234123443211234 seattle, WAPosts: 244Member
    Originally posted by Swids2010

    As I said earlier some of you people have clearly not played a P2W game because if you had you would all be singing a different tune.

    PAY 2 WIN IS WHEN YOU CAN BUY SOMETHING FROM A CASH STORE AS IN REAL MONEY THAT IS UNATAINABLE IN GAME AND GIVES A MASSIVE ADVANTAGE OVER NON CASH SHOP USERS.

     

    No it is not it is using cash to obtain ANY advantage plain and simple.  There are many different degrees of just how bad and explicit that advantage is but regardless of the degree an advantage is an advantage and one that you used cash to pay for is the very definition of pay to win.

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Catskills, NYPosts: 1,832Member

    I find it rather ironic that the OP argues that subjectivity should be eliminated from the definition of  "win" in Pay-2-Win and then goes on to present us with his own personal ("subjective") opinion of what constitutes "winning".

    Here is the deal. Since MMO's are persistant games that never actualy end (absent the company closing the doors), there can be no real objectively quantifiable definition of "winning" them....thus the OP could argue that even one which sold users a "I WIN" button wasn't "Pay-2-Win."

    However, that's a circular arguement and nonsense in this context. "Winning" and "Pay-2-Win" are NECCESARLY subjective measures in this context. ABSOLUTELY certain games are and can be considred "Pay-2-Win" by one (or many individuals)..... and that's really all that matters. If I think a games chosen payment model creates an unfair advantage that detracts from my enjoyment and desire to play the game sufficiently that I don't want to play it....then it's "Pay-2-Win" as far as I'm concerened and I'm not going to play it. That doesn't have to be determinative of what YOU might decide....but that's only relavent to you....and as far as the Developer is concerned, if he's got a whole lot of people feeling like me and not so much like you, then he's got a serious potential problem....if not, then he doesn't.

     

     

     

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,273Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by 123443211234
    Originally posted by Swids2010

    As I said earlier some of you people have clearly not played a P2W game because if you had you would all be singing a different tune.

    PAY 2 WIN IS WHEN YOU CAN BUY SOMETHING FROM A CASH STORE AS IN REAL MONEY THAT IS UNATAINABLE IN GAME AND GIVES A MASSIVE ADVANTAGE OVER NON CASH SHOP USERS.

     

    No it is not it is using cash to obtain ANY advantage plain and simple.  There are many different degrees of just how bad and explicit that advantage is but regardless of the degree an advantage is an advantage and one that you used cash to pay for is the very definition of pay to win.

    Very well said. Black and White. People here have been trying to color it with all shades of gray.

     

    edit- And you know, I fine with this, in this day and age. EVE, AoW, GW2, Neverwinter, Swtor, ANY game with a cash to in game currency is p2w. I always has been and always will be.

     

     My game of choice is p2w just like the others I mentioned. I wish it wasn't. image

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by 123443211234
    Originally posted by Swids2010

    As I said earlier some of you people have clearly not played a P2W game because if you had you would all be singing a different tune.

    PAY 2 WIN IS WHEN YOU CAN BUY SOMETHING FROM A CASH STORE AS IN REAL MONEY THAT IS UNATAINABLE IN GAME AND GIVES A MASSIVE ADVANTAGE OVER NON CASH SHOP USERS.

     

    No it is not it is using cash to obtain ANY advantage plain and simple.  There are many different degrees of just how bad and explicit that advantage is but regardless of the degree an advantage is an advantage and one that you used cash to pay for is the very definition of pay to win.

    Very well said. Black and White. People here have been trying to color it with all shades of gray.

     

     

    Now all you have to do is get people at agree on what an advantage really is and it will be black and white.

     

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,273Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by 123443211234
    Originally posted by Swids2010

    As I said earlier some of you people have clearly not played a P2W game because if you had you would all be singing a different tune.

    PAY 2 WIN IS WHEN YOU CAN BUY SOMETHING FROM A CASH STORE AS IN REAL MONEY THAT IS UNATAINABLE IN GAME AND GIVES A MASSIVE ADVANTAGE OVER NON CASH SHOP USERS.

     

    No it is not it is using cash to obtain ANY advantage plain and simple.  There are many different degrees of just how bad and explicit that advantage is but regardless of the degree an advantage is an advantage and one that you used cash to pay for is the very definition of pay to win.

    Very well said. Black and White. People here have been trying to color it with all shades of gray.

     

     

    Now all you have to do is get people at agree on what an advantage really is and it will be black and white.

     

    image

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon

    Thanks for your opinion OP. Mine is as follows. Since the "primary" goal of the game is advancing your character, then advancing in levels is considered winning. If you, personally, can advance faster by spending money; that equates to P2W.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Arclan

    Thanks for your opinion OP. Mine is as follows. Since the "primary" goal of the game is advancing your character, then advancing in levels is considered winning. If you, personally, can advance faster by spending money; that equates to P2W.

    Thanks for your opinion, Arclan. Mine is as follows. Since the "primary" goal of a game is entertaining me, advancing some levels that considered boring is considered skipping, and not winning. If you, personally, can skip content by spending money, that does not equate to p2w.

     

  • kkarrabbasskkarrabbass Palm Springs, CAPosts: 152Member

    It is rather very simple if you agree not to argue right away, but think a little first.

    It is, as people already noted, in a meaning of word “win”.

    It is a market. If you are buying something, it means you want it. Because it is a game, there is nothing you can buy that will not influence your game experience. You are buying to improve your game one way or another, why you would do that in opposite case.

    Because we are talking about RPG (not a shooter) killing is not the only thing that is important in a game.

    P2W means you have an opportunity to buy something that you wouldn’t have otherwise. No matter what it is. Even cosmetics (if you are buying it – so, it is important for you) make you enjoy game better.  You can buy time if you value it. Winning means to have something YOU VALUE, that next guy doesn’t have. Exactly the way as winning in sense of killing someone will give you a feeling of selfimportance and pride.

    It is not about winning PvP encounter however. It is P2W, not P2WPvP. So, wining is used in its general sense. Winning over someone doesn’t necessary means killing that one.

    We do not do killing very often in real life, but it doesn’t prevent us from saying “I won”.

    As I understand it P2W means ability to pay for advantage. Whatever advantage you value. If you want to look better in a game, you can buy this advantage and look better than one who didn’t.

    And if somebody will tell me it is not a winning, just grow up. Winning is not always about killing, ask your wife.

    P2W means you can buy inequality, unfairness, etc. Some will say, but it might not influence actual gameplay.

    Who are you to impose your narrow vision on another person gameplay.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by kkarrabbass

    Who are you to impose your narrow vision on another person gameplay.

    No one can impose their views on others. I doubt any mind is being changed here.

    It boils down to different people don't agree on which game is p2w, and which is not. That is totally fine since i don't play games based on others' preferences anyway. I play games based on mine.

     

  • MuffinStumpMuffinStump Frankfort, KYPosts: 474Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by kkarrabbass Who are you to impose your narrow vision on another person gameplay.
    No one can impose their views on others. I doubt any mind is being changed here.

    It boils down to different people don't agree on which game is p2w, and which is not. That is totally fine since i don't play games based on others' preferences anyway. I play games based on mine.

     


    Ultimately you're correct that this is essentially an argument of semantics.

    The problem, as I see it, is that 'P2W' is basically a curse word in the mmo community and it is wielded like a hammer in the discussion of almost any game. More of an indictment on the state of gaming forums than anything else.

    "This game sucks! P2W!" - says almost every game detractor ever

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by MuffinStump

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by kkarrabbass Who are you to impose your narrow vision on another person gameplay.
    No one can impose their views on others. I doubt any mind is being changed here.

     

    It boils down to different people don't agree on which game is p2w, and which is not. That is totally fine since i don't play games based on others' preferences anyway. I play games based on mine.

     


     

    Ultimately you're correct that this is essentially an argument of semantics.

    The problem, as I see it, is that 'P2W' is basically a curse word in the mmo community and it is wielded like a hammer in the discussion of almost any game. More of an indictment on the state of gaming forums than anything else.

    "This game sucks! P2W!" - says almost every game detractor ever

    If pay 2 win arguments must define what "win" is.  then free 2 play needs to define what "play" is, and it better be free.

     

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member

    The reason people have so much trouble defining what "win" is...is because just about everyone uses the term wrong. Pay to win is a pvp term. It comes from when microtransactions first started to show up. Some of the first items that got tried where...... stat boosts, because.....why wouldn't you want to buy those ?

    The argument quickly came up that pvp is about skill and those items give an advantage to people who pay....hence the words.....pay....to....win.

    Now that free to play is wide spread and other things are getting put onto the cash shops that people don't like to see on there, well the term p2w was already popular so they started to call it that as well.

    It doesn't make sense when you argue it for pve because there is obviously no real " win" in pve compared to other people. It makes total sense in it's original usage. The guy left alive, won.

    What's going on now, is people are trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole and wondering why it doesn't work.

     

    So there is some history on the term for people who are really struggling with the word win.

  • KonfessKonfess Dallas, TXPosts: 949Member Uncommon
    The truth is, it was never about winning.  It was always about paying.  That is what troubled the penniless unwashed masses.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile

    The reason people have so much trouble defining what "win" is...is because just about everyone uses the term wrong. Pay to win is a pvp term. It comes from when microtransactions first started to show up. Some of the first items that got tried where...... stat boosts, because.....why wouldn't you want to buy those ?

    The argument quickly came up that pvp is about skill and those items give an advantage to people who pay....hence the words.....pay....to....win.

    Now that free to play is wide spread and other things are getting put onto the cash shops that people don't like to see on there, well the term p2w was already popular so they started to call it that as well.

    It doesn't make sense when you argue it for pve because there is obviously no real " win" in pve compared to other people. It makes total sense in it's original usage. The guy left alive, won.

    What's going on now, is people are trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole and wondering why it doesn't work.

     

    So there is some history on the term for people who are really struggling with the word win.

    Players made a game of getting  to endgame fastest. I think it's weird, but it is reality. I doubt they care if that wasn't supposed to be the game. Pve progression isn't a game unless you beat it. So there is some History for people who are struggling to accept it.

    Gamers play games.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • goboygogoboygo Posts: 790Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by trancefate

     

    In my opinion, for a game to be considered PAY TO WIN, the MAXIMUM potential of your character must be allowed to be raised in a way that is NOT obtainable through in-game means.  This is almost never the case (I'm sure someone is gonna come in with some one-off convoluted instance we don't remember, or an indie game 600 people play).

     

    Soooooo in your opinion if I can reach the MAXIMUM potential of my character without using the cash shop but it takes me grinding 24 hours a day for 6 years to achieve what can be bought in the cash shop in one week the game is NOT pay to win.

    Sure, okay.

    "Fighting Internet stupidity one post at at time"
  • RebelScum99RebelScum99 Mesa, AZPosts: 1,090Member
    Originally posted by Superman0X

    If you want to see a P2W game, check out WoW.

     

    Take two players, have one buy the game, and monthly sub. Have the other play for free... and compare the results. There will be a drastic difference in the player experience based on the money paid. This is P2W.

    Not sure if serious....

  • Superman0XSuperman0X San Jose, CAPosts: 1,577Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by RebelScum99
    Originally posted by Superman0X

    If you want to see a P2W game, check out WoW.

     

    Take two players, have one buy the game, and monthly sub. Have the other play for free... and compare the results. There will be a drastic difference in the player experience based on the money paid. This is P2W.

    Not sure if serious....

    I agree that it might be a stretch to call WoW a AAA game, but humor me...

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by RebelScum99
    Originally posted by Superman0X

    If you want to see a P2W game, check out WoW.

     

    Take two players, have one buy the game, and monthly sub. Have the other play for free... and compare the results. There will be a drastic difference in the player experience based on the money paid. This is P2W.

    Not sure if serious....

    Of course it is.

    The free version of WoW let you level up to 20.

    You have to pay to level to L90.

    Last time i check, L90 has more power than L20. So it is p2w by the definition of many here.

     

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