Agreed, but only for this moment. Just wait and see how Elder Scrolls Online, Everquest Next and Wildstar flop (or maybe they won't, I hope for the best). In something like 5-10 years from now we will see the Indie developers pick up the MMO genre and most of these know what they are doing. Probably our MMO genre will thrive once again when that happens. Only downside is that there will be enough MMO's to choose from and the MMO community is going to be fragmented across all different types of games. But ye, just my thoughts
Perhaps, I only played DAOC for about a week so can't comment on really any part of it.
Do you see what you are saying though?
"The worm was only killed once, don't you think it would havebeen done more if it was just about the numbers?"
Some heroic dungeons in WoW have been done by less than 3% of the population. Don't you think more would have if it was just about the numbers?"
The argument you present to prop up DAOC is the same argument others use for WoW heroic but you are saying it's valid for DAOC but not WoW. If it's the same argument it is either valid or invalid in both.
Time is more a barrier to success in WoW than skill is.
Raiding guilds in WoW have to grind the correct gear for the specific instance, practice the sequence over and over, and keep doing it until everyone has the right gear for the next dungeon.
In DAoC, raids were done for fun, rather than as a grind progression. Instead of time being the major barrier, skill was. You needed the best players of their class, the people best at communicating and working together and knowing how to play their part without a ton of instructions, as a unit fighting raid mobs. And this sometimes included progressing through the massive trap, puzzle, and mob filled dungeons on the way to the raid boss. There was a much higher skill ceiling for classes than in most other games.
Since the raids weren't instanced and the AI was more realistic, tactics had to be adapted on the fly. There was a vague "system" for figuring out mobs and it sometimes took a little trial and error, but player skill was much more important than numbers, time, or gear. This is not the case in WoW.
Really though. Come on. If you havent' done them, you can't comment on how easy they are right?
At best all you can say is that they appear easy.
I've raided in LOTRO back at release. The only hard part about that was getting it organized.
I'm not saying there is no challenge involved in raiding/group PvE. All I'm saying I find it easy compared to PvP.
Also, my argument is that PvE combat hasn't changed much if at all. And no one has cared to explain why these raids in WoW are so much harder than say LOTRO.
Or why the combat from yesteryear was harder than it is now.
Really though. Come on. If you havent' done them, you can't comment on how easy they are right?
At best all you can say is that they appear easy.
I've raided in LOTRO back at release. The only hard part about that was getting it organized.
I'm not saying there is no challenge involved in raiding/group PvE. All I'm saying I find it easy compared to PvP.
Also, my argument is that PvE combat hasn't changed much if at all. And no one has cared to explain why these raids in WoW are so much harder than say LOTRO.
Or why the combat from yesteryear was harder than it is now.
If your reference for raid difficulty is LOTRO, I'm not surprised you think they are "easy". Try games like EQ, WoW, EQ2 or even Rift. LOTRO raids have always been about facerolling your keyboard and have always been boringly easy.
Not having done the heroic mode I can't comment on what makes them harder. However I do expect them to be harder than normal dungeons... or why call them heroic?
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
i take very, very good care of my family but i still have the night. I mostly drink beer, read forums and wonder what the fuck happened.
I find this statement just a little bit hilarious.
How exactly do you take "very, very good care" of them? I know... none of my business, right? Yet still, you posted this here...
This statement brings up so many things, it's probably best just not to go there. I agree with the others who stated it's probably best to step away from MMOs for a while, and figure out what's really important in life.
/2c
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Really though. Come on. If you havent' done them, you can't comment on how easy they are right?
At best all you can say is that they appear easy.
I've raided in LOTRO back at release. The only hard part about that was getting it organized.
I'm not saying there is no challenge involved in raiding/group PvE. All I'm saying I find it easy compared to PvP.
Also, my argument is that PvE combat hasn't changed much if at all. And no one has cared to explain why these raids in WoW are so much harder than say LOTRO.
Or why the combat from yesteryear was harder than it is now.
If your reference for raid difficulty is LOTRO, I'm not surprised you think they are "easy". Try games like EQ, WoW, EQ2 or even Rift. LOTRO raids have always been about facerolling your keyboard and have always been boringly easy.
Why are they so easy? I didn't faceroll, even if I could. Why are the WoW ones harder when people call LOTRO a WoW clone?
The combat is very similar isn't it. Think WoWs is quicker, not to sure.
EDIT: We are agreed though that PvE is "harder" to stick at because they just get so repetitive.
Originally posted by cronius77 Its the same kill ten rats or fedex quests in every game that releases followed by either meaningless pvp or end game gear grind raiding.
Life is a Journey, not a destination.
Can't you focus on the journey instead of what gear you might get?
15 million people play League of Legends every month, and its not for the gear
Really though. Come on. If you havent' done them, you can't comment on how easy they are right?
At best all you can say is that they appear easy.
People are just throwing "easymode" around to diss other people and make themselves feel good.
If you look back at Sunwell, it is well known that only 2% did the raid. That is obviously too difficult for the audience as a whole. Either put in a difficulty slider (which is what LFR, normal & hard mode are doing), or make it so that a larger percentage of the audience can have fun. MMORPGs are entertainment products, not applications to elite universities.
Lastly, hard mode (in both dungeon/raids, in WOW) usually means not only a higher hp/damage from the boss, but also additional (or different) mechanics.
Really though. Come on. If you havent' done them, you can't comment on how easy they are right?
At best all you can say is that they appear easy.
People are just throwing "easymode" around to diss other people and make themselves feel good.
If you look back at Sunwell, it is well known that only 2% did the raid. That is obviously too difficult for the audience as a whole. Either put in a difficulty slider (which is what LFR, normal & hard mode are doing), or make it so that a larger percentage of the audience can have fun. MMORPGs are entertainment products, not applications to elite universities.
Lastly, hard mode (in both dungeon/raids, in WOW) usually means not only a higher hp/damage from the boss, but also additional (or different) mechanics.
The 2% who "did the raid" is that people who completed the dungeon who attempted it? Was it really the difficulty of the dungeon that kept players out or was it that you needed to have a dozen other dungeons on farm status to gear up for this new dungeon?
When I left WoW AQ40 was the "dungeon to beat". It wasn't more difficult then the other dungeons. You just needed to get 40 people equipped with BWL drops first. Which in turn meant you needed to have MC on farm and equip 40 people with that gear.
If Blizzard continued with that type of tier system its no wonder only 2% of players play that dungeon. Players get bored long before they ever reach the prerequisites. How many tiers of gear do they have now?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Originally posted by cronius77 Its the same kill ten rats or fedex quests in every game that releases followed by either meaningless pvp or end game gear grind raiding.
Life is a Journey, not a destination.
Can't you focus on the journey instead of what gear you might get?
15 million people play League of Legends every month, and its not for the gear
Such a cliche.
I play games for fun and to be entertained, and not to contemplate whether the journey or the destination is more fun.
Really though. Come on. If you havent' done them, you can't comment on how easy they are right?
At best all you can say is that they appear easy.
People are just throwing "easymode" around to diss other people and make themselves feel good.
If you look back at Sunwell, it is well known that only 2% did the raid. That is obviously too difficult for the audience as a whole. Either put in a difficulty slider (which is what LFR, normal & hard mode are doing), or make it so that a larger percentage of the audience can have fun. MMORPGs are entertainment products, not applications to elite universities.
Lastly, hard mode (in both dungeon/raids, in WOW) usually means not only a higher hp/damage from the boss, but also additional (or different) mechanics.
Really though. Come on. If you havent' done them, you can't comment on how easy they are right?
At best all you can say is that they appear easy.
People are just throwing "easymode" around to diss other people and make themselves feel good.
If you look back at Sunwell, it is well known that only 2% did the raid. That is obviously too difficult for the audience as a whole. Either put in a difficulty slider (which is what LFR, normal & hard mode are doing), or make it so that a larger percentage of the audience can have fun. MMORPGs are entertainment products, not applications to elite universities.
Lastly, hard mode (in both dungeon/raids, in WOW) usually means not only a higher hp/damage from the boss, but also additional (or different) mechanics.
The 2% who "did the raid" is that people who completed the dungeon who attempted it? Was it really the difficulty of the dungeon that kept players out or was it that you needed to have a dozen other dungeons on farm status to gear up for this new dungeon?
When I left WoW AQ40 was the "dungeon to beat". It wasn't more difficult then the other dungeons. You just needed to get 40 people equipped with BWL drops first. Which in turn meant you needed to have MC on farm and equip 40 people with that gear.
If Blizzard continued with that type of tier system its no wonder only 2% of players play that dungeon. Players get bored long before they ever reach the prerequisites. How many tiers of gear do they have now?
They should work on making early game challenging 20/40 man raids, make that part of the journey.
These forums are by far more toxic and boring than any mmo that is out right now. And most of you seem to put up with it here fairly well. Don't see the big deal really.
When I played EQ1 I wasn't in a hardcore raiding guild (back then they were called über guilds). Most people weren't in one and trying to get into said uber guild was like applying to an elite university. The game rewarded people playing 16 hours a day and the only kind of people able to play at that level were young or unemployed. Everquest was known as a marriage killer too. It was most definitely skewed towards hardcore type of play. Hardcore in the sense it required a massive time commitment on part of the player.
Quite frankly I quit EQ1 because I hit the uber guild wall. No one would take me in because I lacked the gear and I couldn't get the gear because no one would take me in. I'm sorta glad the target demographic has changed to be more in line with average peoples schedules. The numbers bare this shift as lessening the hardcore time sinks allow more people to enjoy the games thus more people are into MMOs today than the "hardcore old school" years.
Hyper elitist games aren't made anymore because no one besides a small minority with loads of time on their hands are willing and able to play them. Devs can push out a AAA MMO with updated graphics that has all the old mechanics but who should be ABLE to play?
Really though. Come on. If you havent' done them, you can't comment on how easy they are right?
At best all you can say is that they appear easy.
People are just throwing "easymode" around to diss other people and make themselves feel good.
If you look back at Sunwell, it is well known that only 2% did the raid. That is obviously too difficult for the audience as a whole. Either put in a difficulty slider (which is what LFR, normal & hard mode are doing), or make it so that a larger percentage of the audience can have fun. MMORPGs are entertainment products, not applications to elite universities.
Lastly, hard mode (in both dungeon/raids, in WOW) usually means not only a higher hp/damage from the boss, but also additional (or different) mechanics.
Some guilds may disagree.
oh i agree. I was in one of those guilds before. Not very fun.
At least the devs decide that is not the only audience they want to cater to, and hence improvements like LFR.
These forums are by far more toxic and boring than any mmo that is out right now. And most of you seem to put up with it here fairly well. Don't see the big deal really.
Yeh you post here. Do you really like boring activities? Is that the reason you like slow travel and down-time in your MMORPGs?
Originally posted by donpopuki I have no problem people voicing their wants and wishes. The line is crossed when "x" isn't in the game then the game is made for "the lowest common denominator" and "these kids want everything handed to them nowadays". Whether someone likes a game or not isn't a true reflection of the value of the person. The toxicity of all this is spilling over into real life when devs get death threats. Call me a hypocrite all you want but just because I see the toxic behavior and call a spade a spade doesn't invalidate the observation.
I agree about the kiddies part but how is it any less toxic to essential tell the whiner to take his ball home if he doesn't like the genre? That attitude is just as much part of the negativity towards differing opinions.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by FoomerangHm well how can I say this properly.... These forums are by far more toxic and boring than any mmo that is out right now. And most of you seem to put up with it here fairly well. Don't see the big deal really.
Yeh you post here. Do you really like boring activities? Is that the reason you like slow travel and down-time in your MMORPGs? If I could play mmos at work I wouldn't be posting here.
Originally posted by FoomerangHm well how can I say this properly.... These forums are by far more toxic and boring than any mmo that is out right now. And most of you seem to put up with it here fairly well. Don't see the big deal really.
Yeh you post here. Do you really like boring activities? Is that the reason you like slow travel and down-time in your MMORPGs?
If I could play mmos at work I wouldn't be posting here.
Are you saying all the activities available to you at work is even more boring that you have to choose to post on a, in your own words, "boring" forum?
These forums are by far more toxic and boring than any mmo that is out right now. And most of you seem to put up with it here fairly well. Don't see the big deal really.
lol Well said. This is one of the few times I have global on.
ER, you know, you two are right here with us.
Guess you enjoy watching train-wrecks as much as the rest of us, even if you don't find any pleasure in it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
These forums are by far more toxic and boring than any mmo that is out right now. And most of you seem to put up with it here fairly well. Don't see the big deal really.
lol Well said. This is one of the few times I have global on.
ER, you know, you two are right here with us.
Guess you enjoy watching train-wrecks as much as the rest of us, even if you don't find any pleasure in it.
It's so much easier to see when you sit on a high horse I suppose. Icewhite is the king of those that look down upon us and throw out better than though comments without adding any input into a discussion so I won't bag on Foomerang and Torv for it although the comments do seem hypocritical.
To the OP, I can agree with you to some extent, although I agree with others in that maybe you just need a break. I am on one and it is for the same reasons you speak of so I am taking my own advise.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by nariusseldonOriginally posted by FoomerangHm well how can I say this properly.... These forums are by far more toxic and boring than any mmo that is out right now. And most of you seem to put up with it here fairly well. Don't see the big deal really.
Yeh you post here. Do you really like boring activities? Is that the reason you like slow travel and down-time in your MMORPGs?If I could play mmos at work I wouldn't be posting here.Are you saying all the activities available to you at work is even more boring that you have to choose to post on a, in your own words, "boring" forum?
you should relax a little. its not always boring. it is right now though.
Originally posted by FlawSGI Originally posted by KyleranOriginally posted by TorvaldrOriginally posted by FoomerangHm well how can I say this properly....These forums are by far more toxic and boring than any mmo that is out right now. And most of you seem to put up with it here fairly well. Don't see the big deal really.
lol Well said. This is one of the few times I have global on. ER, you know, you two are right here with us. Guess you enjoy watching train-wrecks as much as the rest of us, even if you don't find any pleasure in it. It's so much easier to see when you sit on a high horse I suppose. Icewhite is the king of those that look down upon us and throw out better than though comments without adding any input into a discussion so I won't bag on Foomerang and Torv for it although the comments do seem hypocritical.
To the OP, I can agree with you to some extent, although I agree with others in that maybe you just need a break. I am on one and it is for the same reasons you speak of so I am taking my own advise.
All I'm saying is that some people put a lot of effort into being unhappy on these forums. And in the perspective of the topic at hand, even some super lame WoW clone is more enjoyable than this.
But don't mind me anyway. I'm just some schmuck with downtime at work who would rather talk about mmos even if its on a hate filled forum.
Its weird sometimes I feel like I play mmos despite this place if that makes any sense lol
Comments
Time is more a barrier to success in WoW than skill is.
Raiding guilds in WoW have to grind the correct gear for the specific instance, practice the sequence over and over, and keep doing it until everyone has the right gear for the next dungeon.
In DAoC, raids were done for fun, rather than as a grind progression. Instead of time being the major barrier, skill was. You needed the best players of their class, the people best at communicating and working together and knowing how to play their part without a ton of instructions, as a unit fighting raid mobs. And this sometimes included progressing through the massive trap, puzzle, and mob filled dungeons on the way to the raid boss. There was a much higher skill ceiling for classes than in most other games.
Since the raids weren't instanced and the AI was more realistic, tactics had to be adapted on the fly. There was a vague "system" for figuring out mobs and it sometimes took a little trial and error, but player skill was much more important than numbers, time, or gear. This is not the case in WoW.
I've raided in LOTRO back at release. The only hard part about that was getting it organized.
I'm not saying there is no challenge involved in raiding/group PvE. All I'm saying I find it easy compared to PvP.
Also, my argument is that PvE combat hasn't changed much if at all. And no one has cared to explain why these raids in WoW are so much harder than say LOTRO.
Or why the combat from yesteryear was harder than it is now.
It's all subjective.
If your reference for raid difficulty is LOTRO, I'm not surprised you think they are "easy". Try games like EQ, WoW, EQ2 or even Rift. LOTRO raids have always been about facerolling your keyboard and have always been boringly easy.
My computer is better than yours.
I find this statement just a little bit hilarious.
How exactly do you take "very, very good care" of them? I know... none of my business, right? Yet still, you posted this here...
This statement brings up so many things, it's probably best just not to go there. I agree with the others who stated it's probably best to step away from MMOs for a while, and figure out what's really important in life.
/2c
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Why are they so easy? I didn't faceroll, even if I could. Why are the WoW ones harder when people call LOTRO a WoW clone?
The combat is very similar isn't it. Think WoWs is quicker, not to sure.
EDIT: We are agreed though that PvE is "harder" to stick at because they just get so repetitive.
Life is a Journey, not a destination.
Can't you focus on the journey instead of what gear you might get?
15 million people play League of Legends every month, and its not for the gear
People are just throwing "easymode" around to diss other people and make themselves feel good.
If you look back at Sunwell, it is well known that only 2% did the raid. That is obviously too difficult for the audience as a whole. Either put in a difficulty slider (which is what LFR, normal & hard mode are doing), or make it so that a larger percentage of the audience can have fun. MMORPGs are entertainment products, not applications to elite universities.
Lastly, hard mode (in both dungeon/raids, in WOW) usually means not only a higher hp/damage from the boss, but also additional (or different) mechanics.
The 2% who "did the raid" is that people who completed the dungeon who attempted it? Was it really the difficulty of the dungeon that kept players out or was it that you needed to have a dozen other dungeons on farm status to gear up for this new dungeon?
When I left WoW AQ40 was the "dungeon to beat". It wasn't more difficult then the other dungeons. You just needed to get 40 people equipped with BWL drops first. Which in turn meant you needed to have MC on farm and equip 40 people with that gear.
If Blizzard continued with that type of tier system its no wonder only 2% of players play that dungeon. Players get bored long before they ever reach the prerequisites. How many tiers of gear do they have now?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Such a cliche.
I play games for fun and to be entertained, and not to contemplate whether the journey or the destination is more fun.
Some guilds may disagree.
Totally agree 100%
Enough said.
Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.
Thomas Jefferson
They should work on making early game challenging 20/40 man raids, make that part of the journey.
Hm well how can I say this properly....
These forums are by far more toxic and boring than any mmo that is out right now. And most of you seem to put up with it here fairly well. Don't see the big deal really.
Quite frankly I quit EQ1 because I hit the uber guild wall. No one would take me in because I lacked the gear and I couldn't get the gear because no one would take me in. I'm sorta glad the target demographic has changed to be more in line with average peoples schedules. The numbers bare this shift as lessening the hardcore time sinks allow more people to enjoy the games thus more people are into MMOs today than the "hardcore old school" years.
Hyper elitist games aren't made anymore because no one besides a small minority with loads of time on their hands are willing and able to play them. Devs can push out a AAA MMO with updated graphics that has all the old mechanics but who should be ABLE to play?
oh i agree. I was in one of those guilds before. Not very fun.
At least the devs decide that is not the only audience they want to cater to, and hence improvements like LFR.
Yeh you post here. Do you really like boring activities? Is that the reason you like slow travel and down-time in your MMORPGs?
I agree about the kiddies part but how is it any less toxic to essential tell the whiner to take his ball home if he doesn't like the genre? That attitude is just as much part of the negativity towards differing opinions.
If I could play mmos at work I wouldn't be posting here.
Are you saying all the activities available to you at work is even more boring that you have to choose to post on a, in your own words, "boring" forum?
ER, you know, you two are right here with us.
Guess you enjoy watching train-wrecks as much as the rest of us, even if you don't find any pleasure in it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's so much easier to see when you sit on a high horse I suppose. Icewhite is the king of those that look down upon us and throw out better than though comments without adding any input into a discussion so I won't bag on Foomerang and Torv for it although the comments do seem hypocritical.
To the OP, I can agree with you to some extent, although I agree with others in that maybe you just need a break. I am on one and it is for the same reasons you speak of so I am taking my own advise.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
If I could play mmos at work I wouldn't be posting here.
Are you saying all the activities available to you at work is even more boring that you have to choose to post on a, in your own words, "boring" forum?
you should relax a little. its not always boring. it is right now though.
ER, you know, you two are right here with us. Guess you enjoy watching train-wrecks as much as the rest of us, even if you don't find any pleasure in it.
It's so much easier to see when you sit on a high horse I suppose. Icewhite is the king of those that look down upon us and throw out better than though comments without adding any input into a discussion so I won't bag on Foomerang and Torv for it although the comments do seem hypocritical.
To the OP, I can agree with you to some extent, although I agree with others in that maybe you just need a break. I am on one and it is for the same reasons you speak of so I am taking my own advise.
All I'm saying is that some people put a lot of effort into being unhappy on these forums. And in the perspective of the topic at hand, even some super lame WoW clone is more enjoyable than this.
But don't mind me anyway. I'm just some schmuck with downtime at work who would rather talk about mmos even if its on a hate filled forum.
Its weird sometimes I feel like I play mmos despite this place if that makes any sense lol