I actually enjoyed leveling up in games like Everquest. If you are going to have levels, and build zones in order to level through it might as well take time and effort to get through them. Whats the point of building low levels in games like ToR when people just blow through them in a couple of days? How many low level worlds did they make that could have just been skipped over?
I see two choices with levels. Either make it a trip that takes a long time and requires a bit of effort. Or just don't have levels and make your zones end game progression. Imagine if Tor again had used all those worlds for different end game zones instead of mid game filler that people rushed over without looking at.
I actually enjoyed leveling up in games like Everquest. If you are going to have levels, and build zones in order to level through it might as well take time and effort to get through them. Whats the point of building low levels in games like ToR when people just blow through them in a couple of days? How many low level worlds did they make that could have just been skipped over?
I see two choices with levels. Either make it a trip that takes a long time and requires a bit of effort. Or just don't have levels and make your zones end game progression. Imagine if Tor again had used all those worlds for different end game zones instead of mid game filler that people rushed over without looking at.
Levels kind of make content stupid to me. Why is the giant fanged beast now hitting your cloth armored character like its tickling them because your guy has reach magical platforms of progressions. When you have progression based on usage and it's shallower you can have places on planets that are always dangerous to even players who've been playing for a long time. That makes the world more livelier.
You design worlds where say like the Burning Crusades Outland. Due to level progression these places become trivial once you out level it. So all that time and effort placed into these places and the mystique of fighting giant demon is lost because your suddenly too powerful to be touched. To me I would make the Outlands somewhere if you quested or visited it would always be dangerous.
To me that's the difference between focusing on the world vs. focusing on leveling. The world and lore seem to always come at expensive of leveling progression because its easier to just make quest hubs to hand hold leveling.
That isn't a function of the levels though, it is a function of how much a game gives you per level. WoW tends to make levels extremely important. I should be able to walk into a newbie zone and blow it up like it is nothing at max level, that is progression. A black belt can beat unlimited numbers of white belts etc. The problem with most games is they put too much power in levels. A level 10 in WoW can wipe the floor with endless lvl 1 mobs, that is a bit different.
I mean honestly, so many people whine that there is no progression and nothing to do once you hit the cap. Having someone level is a really easy way of keeping people occupied and give them a goal to achieve. Because mostly, at least for me, after I reach the max. level and there isn't a whole lot of content... I just end up quitting. But if there is yet another level to reach... you will keep going. Know what I mean? Lets take a few examples, shall we?
I agree but as to why games are designed this way now it comes down to a combination of money and the way a lot of players are these days. Most of the new generation of players who grew up with things like Diablo and WoW instead of real pen and paper RPGs don't look at these games as an adventure or a journey. It is more like a part time job to them. This is why they "min-max" because when you look at leveling like a job you want to do it the fastest and most efficient way possible to get your pay (skills/loot/bragging rights).
Blizzard figured out how to exploit this and other companies have followed them. Rather than having to make tons of new zones and content for a game in which there is no or a very high level cap which is obviously expensive or have players spend months or years leveling in the same zones, which most people would get bored with, If you have an easily achieved level cap followed by prolonged "endgame" these min-max players will grind the same dungeon over and over just to get one piece of gear. Then when you finally do release an expansion, all their "work" becomes useless and the whole process starts again so it's much more cost effective for the company.
I'd love games to come out with proper RPG slow progression and no level cap but the trend in themepark design seems to be going away from that to even faster leveling experiences. One reason why I don't really get excited about new themepark games anymore, no matter what else they bring to the table they all seem to share this design philosophy.
Originally posted by Quizzical Massive amounts of grinding to level doesn't make most players play the game longer. Rather, it makes most potential players quit quickly or never pick up the game in the first place.
exactly. This is why i keep saying that the generic questing needs to die in mmos and have more dynamic leveling content that doesnt repeat, keeps progressing. It would progress slowly but not repeating over and over the same things. This way people dont get bored of the same static quest grinds with every single character doing the same. And on top of that, the slow pace would give the devs enough time to keep putting content to keep it going.
Originally posted by Quizzical Massive amounts of grinding to level doesn't make most players play the game longer. Rather, it makes most potential players quit quickly or never pick up the game in the first place.
exactly. This is why i keep saying that the generic questing needs to die in mmos and have more dynamic leveling content that doesnt repeat, keeps progressing. It would progress slowly but not repeating over and over the same things. This way people dont get bored of the same static quest grinds with every single character doing the same. And on top of that, the slow pace would give the devs enough time to keep putting content to keep it going.
If you mean dynamic like in GW2 or FF14,no thanks.Running around solo in a herd is not my idea of fun.I would rather have the so called 'generic' quests than 'dynamic' that are constantly on a loop every 5 minutes.I think 'dynamic' is less dynamic than generic in MMORPG so far.
exactly. This is why i keep saying that the generic questing needs to die in mmos and have more dynamic leveling content that doesnt repeat, keeps progressing. It would progress slowly but not repeating over and over the same things. This way people dont get bored of the same static quest grinds with every single character doing the same. And on top of that, the slow pace would give the devs enough time to keep putting content to keep it going.
I'm hoping Skyrim hinted at the future of this type of MMO with its procedurally generated quests or you could look at a game like Dwarf Fortress if you prefer. This is potentially a way for MMOs to make infinite amounts of new content without having to pay thousands of human developers to continually churn it out. Of course computer AI needs to get a lot better to make these form of quests any more engaging than the "kill 10 rats" variety but it's the future I think.
Originally posted by Dogblaster I enjoy leveling in mmorpg. One of the most important aspect of rpg I would say. Those ideas about having no leveling, etc. are rather funny
Why is that? Do you really level up in real life or progressively get better at what you do?
uh, yeah you do.
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Originally posted by Torvaldr Originally posted by DamonVileOriginally posted by Skooma2Originally posted by Vermillion_RaventhalOriginally posted by DogblasterI enjoy leveling in mmorpg. One of the most important aspect of rpg I would say. Those ideas about having no leveling, etc. are rather funny
Why is that? Do you really level up in real life or progressively get better at what you do? Yes, you do "level up" in real life. Infant --> child ---> teen-ager ---> adultYes, you do "level up" in real life. Newspaper boy ---> part-timer in a store ----> full-time jobYes, you do "level up" in real life. Kindergarten ---> elementary school ---> high school ---> college ----> post-graduate schoolYes, people get better at what they do. You wouldn't like it if your doctor or lawyer only had whatever skills they had when they graduated med/law school. That's true for ANY profession that pays more than minimum wage.If I was going to see a Dr, I'd rather he be on a skill based system than a level based one. any idiot can get to lvl cap :PLife is more complicated than a one dimensional mmo game. Progression in life has multiple measures. "Levels" have many attributes and aren't so clearly compartmentalized as mmo levels are. They're still sort of there though. Life is also skill based and the levels people attain are often dependent or influence by their skills.
Here's one small example. When I was in the US Navy as a nuclear machinist mate (my class), I had to take an exam to level up, but there were also several other factors I had to meet in order to advance. The test was a measure of skill. There were also a string of personal evaluations, recommendations, and competency checks. I did level, the first time up, then I mustered out and started leveling in other areas of my life, or continued leveling those already started.
Life is more complicated than a video game, this is a surprise? I mean really?
Originally posted by Quizzical Massive amounts of grinding to level doesn't make most players play the game longer. Rather, it makes most potential players quit quickly or never pick up the game in the first place.
exactly. This is why i keep saying that the generic questing needs to die in mmos and have more dynamic leveling content that doesnt repeat, keeps progressing. It would progress slowly but not repeating over and over the same things. This way people dont get bored of the same static quest grinds with every single character doing the same. And on top of that, the slow pace would give the devs enough time to keep putting content to keep it going.
If you mean dynamic like in GW2 or FF14,no thanks.Running around solo in a herd is not my idea of fun.I would rather have the so called 'generic' quests than 'dynamic' that are constantly on a loop every 5 minutes.I think 'dynamic' is less dynamic than generic in MMORPG so far.
i didnt mention those 2 games but yes. Take those ideas and make them bigger and better. The only legit way to stay long term in an mmo anymore is that way. Specially if they want us to keep paying them to put out content. 1-2 years doing the same things every day over and over while the devs sit on their lawrels just releasing hotfixes is not my idea of paying for content. If we have to wait that long at least we should have enough dynamic content to tolerate the process with the less repetition possible, no matter how slow the process is.
Originally posted by Dogblaster I enjoy leveling in mmorpg. One of the most important aspect of rpg I would say. Those ideas about having no leveling, etc. are rather funny
Why is that? Do you really level up in real life or progressively get better at what you do?
uh, yeah you do.
Think his comment was a bit more subtle. Meaning he was giving the alternative of not using levels, but skills that progress individually on practice.
Reason being he also stated this after in another post.
"When you have progression based on usage and it's shallower you can have places on planets that are always dangerous to even players who've been playing for a long time."
It's kinda vaguely described, but it is the distinction that characters aren't becoming globally tougher as they gain experience, but rather that they are learning the specialties in which they are training, and becoming more proficient with that.
It's still a form of leveling, really, but it's the notion that it feels more 'natural', as you are correlating it to practicing in a given academic, work, or experience field (with or without potential crossover to other fields).
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
You need to keep in mind that players level at different speeds. A hardcore player investing 6+ hours/day will level faster than someone playing 2 hours/day. It won't take long at all before you start seeing a chasm being formed between these two groups and therefore an imbalance in their strengths. If there's no cap or wall in place to control players levelling, never allowing others to catch up, all but the top players would probably quit as they can't compete.
It's inbuilt into us humans to have the same opportunities that ALL other players have, especially in a MMO environment where we step out of reality and into our fantasy characters. For this reason, I could not see a game like this working. Even for the hardcore player, it would surely have to feel like being a mouse on a treadmill that never stops. People like to see obtainable goals.
You need to keep in mind that players level at different speeds. A hardcore player investing 6+ hours/day will level faster than someone playing 2 hours/day. It won't take long at all before you start seeing a chasm being formed between these two groups and therefore an imbalance in their strengths. If there's no cap or wall in place to control players levelling, never allowing others to catch up, all but the top players would probably quit as they can't compete.
See, this right here, is exactly the attitude in game design I fundamentally disagree with . Unless you're talking about a heavily PvP based game there's no reason why the casual and hardcore players have to compete with each other (even PvP can be balanced in such a way that a group of low levels can take out a smaller group of high levels). What you're talking about is like "gaming communism": Give everyone the same rewards regardless of the effort they're willing or able to put into the game. It leads to games where everyone is the same and few people really satisfied in the long term.
A lot of people want goals to aspire to that are hard for them to reach and then, when and if they reach, those goals to feel a bit special and distinct from the crowd .It's a cool feeling to see the person who has been playing the game much longer than you and think "maybe someday I can have that." thinking "I will have that in a week of playing with very little effort..." is much less cool and interesting.
I guess the bottom line is that I believe that games are about having fun and doing the best you can within the time amd ability constraints you have. Not worrying about what some other person has, just because they've been playing longer or have more time or can click faster or whatever. Games aren't that different from the rest of life, you should get out of them what you put into them.
Originally posted by Dogblaster I enjoy leveling in mmorpg. One of the most important aspect of rpg I would say. Those ideas about having no leveling, etc. are rather funny
Why is that? Do you really level up in real life or progressively get better at what you do?
uh, yeah you do.
Think his comment was a bit more subtle. Meaning he was giving the alternative of not using levels, but skills that progress individually on practice.
ah HA!
Ok going to bed.
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Leveling under rated? You can't be serious. Leveling exists in 99% of all MMOs. If there was ever a more overdone and over rated MMO mechanic leveling is it. Honestly I would like to play a game that had no levels at all. That way the entire game is just end game and new players can jump in right away without having to grind through meaningless filler content. End game tends to be more group centric which is the type of content I prefer.
You need to keep in mind that players level at different speeds. A hardcore player investing 6+ hours/day will level faster than someone playing 2 hours/day. It won't take long at all before you start seeing a chasm being formed between these two groups and therefore an imbalance in their strengths. If there's no cap or wall in place to control players levelling, never allowing others to catch up, all but the top players would probably quit as they can't compete.
See, this right here, is exactly the attitude in game design I fundamentally disagree with . Unless you're talking about a heavily PvP based game there's no reason why the casual and hardcore players have to compete with each other (even PvP can be balanced in such a way that a group of low levels can take out a smaller group of high levels). What you're talking about is like "gaming communism": Give everyone the same rewards regardless of the effort they're willing or able to put into the game. It leads to games where everyone is the same and few people really satisfied in the long term.
A lot of people want goals to aspire to that are hard for them to reach and then, when and if they reach, those goals to feel a bit special and distinct from the crowd .It's a cool feeling to see the person who has been playing the game much longer than you and think "maybe someday I can have that." thinking "I will have that in a week of playing with very little effort..." is much less cool and interesting.
I guess the bottom line is that I believe that games are about having fun and doing the best you can within the time amd ability constraints you have. Not worrying about what some other person has, just because they've been playing longer or have more time or can click faster or whatever. Games aren't that different from the rest of life, you should get out of them what you put into them.
I don't have any issue with what you are saying at all. In fact, I wouldn't mind a game where the greater effort you put in the more you get from it.
For example, I'd love to see a game where the more effort you placed into crafting the more proficcient you became. Making it take years to perfect with numerous subskillls to be learn't, having few restrictions on what you could learn first etc etc could potentially be my dream game.
My comment was my perspective on how people psycologically and generally seem to be wired.
For a AAA gaming company to spend 100+ million on a game that targets a niche type of player would be a risk.
None of us really know what types of games the majority would like. We may know what they buy now but maybe the next big idea is a more challenging "hardcore" RPG that just hasn't been marketed correctly yet. I mean the original D&D sold pretty well back in the day for being a very small game made by a couple of guys obsessed with wargames and Tolkien.
I also suspect that the "blockbuster MMO" that tries to be all things to all people is dying out, none of them other than WoW have really been that successful, especially lately. I think we will see more niche and focused MMOs with much leaner production budgets. (I personally would be very glad for this change.)
-almost everyone is already at max level so you see empty leveling zones
-leveling content is poor
-devs nerf leveling to get everyone asap to end level to join THE GRIND.
-players who are higher in levels gain a major advantage (pvp ganking lowbies etc) so everyone is more looking into gaining as much levels as possible, resulting in a race.
There are some games that break with this tradition, though this is my experience though with themeparks.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Originally posted by Dogblaster I enjoy leveling in mmorpg. One of the most important aspect of rpg I would say. Those ideas about having no leveling, etc. are rather funny
Why is that? Do you really level up in real life or progressively get better at what you do?
uh, yeah you do.
Think his comment was a bit more subtle. Meaning he was giving the alternative of not using levels, but skills that progress individually on practice.
Reason being he also stated this after in another post.
"When you have progression based on usage and it's shallower you can have places on planets that are always dangerous to even players who've been playing for a long time."
It's kinda vaguely described, but it is the distinction that characters aren't becoming globally tougher as they gain experience, but rather that they are learning the specialties in which they are training, and becoming more proficient with that.
It's still a form of leveling, really, but it's the notion that it feels more 'natural', as you are correlating it to practicing in a given academic, work, or experience field (with or without potential crossover to other fields).
Yes to a degree. Usage based systems are not really a form of leveling unless its a hybrid system like say Oblivion. in a level game there are power platforms. Gaining a level makes you character better in every way. For example a mage that hit max level only using a staff will be better casting spells than a mage who only used magic but 20 levels lower. Many times there are modifiers which make level differences more pronounced like resisting spells from lower level spells and having no magic resist.
With leveling games progression as with the DnD roots comes from defeating opponents and quest. Grinding mobs for no reason has been deemed tedious. Now we have a focus questing. What tends to happen is that you have an escalating content 1 through max and level specific zones. This means you need enough quest to level up a character. Problem is that there are only 7 real quest types and player segmenting by level specific content and zones. Players now want to be to end game asap and now you're dumbing down your whole character development and throwing away leveling areas. Next expansion comes out and offers more levels/progression and now the depths of hell tickle.
Usage based games generally don't have vast power progress since you are developing what you like. If you create an area designed to be difficult it will remain hard unless gear changes that. Players usually have less steep grinding to be incorporated into the content because there are no magical power platforms.
I also suspect that the "blockbuster MMO" that tries to be all things to all people is dying out, none of them other than WoW have really been that successful, especially lately. I think we will see more niche and focused MMOs with much leaner production budgets. (I personally would be very glad for this change.)
Yes. The most recent big success in online games are LoL and WoT which are focused pvp games. Virtual worlds are not even needed.
I also suspect that the "blockbuster MMO" that tries to be all things to all people is dying out, none of them other than WoW have really been that successful, especially lately. I think we will see more niche and focused MMOs with much leaner production budgets. (I personally would be very glad for this change.)
Yes. The most recent big success in online games are LoL and WoT which are focused pvp games. Virtual worlds are not even needed.
LoL has nothing to do with MMORPGs. You could say the same thing about Call of Duty but there is no correlation exceot they're online games.
I mean honestly, so many people whine that there is no progression and nothing to do once you hit the cap. Having someone level is a really easy way of keeping people occupied and give them a goal to achieve. Because mostly, at least for me, after I reach the max. level and there isn't a whole lot of content... I just end up quitting. But if there is yet another level to reach... you will keep going. Know what I mean? Lets take a few examples, shall we?
How about Lineage II. It is a real grinder and leveling is (at least it used to be) awfully slow. That is a GOOD thing! Through the grind and slow leveling, you are forced to interact more, engage more in the community. Back then, you'd start grinding in a spot and while you did so you had time to chat and get to know new people. You would eventually party up and travel around together, grind together, become friends and stuff like that. And nowadays? What do we have nowadays? The quest grind, leading you from spot A to spot B and then to spot C etc. etc. and eventually maybe back to spot C again because guy at spot D is too lazy to go there himself, etc. etc. What the result of this is? You end up going where NPC's want you to go, not where you would like to go. I have no problems with quests, but nowadays quests tend to be the biggest source of gaining experience so why would anyone grind if there's a faster way, where you just have to run and kill a few mobs etc?
But anyways, the point is that leveling is a really easy way to make you feel like you progress. Maybe even the biggest? I mean, why else do people get so awfully bored after they reach the level cap? Because there isn't much else that would keep them going I guess. Now, if they had yet another level to reach, I believe they would keep going. Levels are like carrots that someone wiggles in front of your face. Look at Lineage II again, for example. It had equipment grades (<20 No-Grade, 20-39 D Grade, 30-51 C Grade, 52-61 B Grade... etc) so it was like "I need to keep going, reach the next level so I can reach the next equipment grade and get myself some better gear" you see where I'm going, don't you?
Another game, Cabal, for example. It had a lot of grinding there, right? Well, that was a good thing, once again! Because of the reason I mentioned above.
What is your opinion on this? Do you think leveling is good for a game, or bad? Do you think it is good for an MMO if everyone levels up fast, or do you think it is better if it was slow?
I understand your point but I really believe that is a bad way to look at it all. Leveling should never be more then a tutorial of how the game is played and how your character is played, nothing more. The filler levels are a waste of time and resources, end game should bring more to it other then do this raid dungeon and get this gear. MMOs fail the give the player a sense of investment into the game its self, MMOs should really feel like a second hobby. I am a former boxer, with boxing your build your self up in many ways and it becomes a way of life and you feel and see the investment, there is NO ROI in today's MMOs. In shadowbane you are invested in several ways, one you own are a part of a fortress that you or your guild design. Secondly you level your character ( takes about 1 week tops) then you allocate several different stat points to your liking. The heart of the game is acquire more land through siege warfare or just defend your land, you can also just raid farming/leveling grounds to acquire more cash.
All those things listed above really make the player feel as if they are invested and a sense of accomplishment, SWTOR almost had it right, they just need to get rid of 80% of their filler quest.
Originally posted by Quizzical Massive amounts of grinding to level doesn't make most players play the game longer. Rather, it makes most potential players quit quickly or never pick up the game in the first place.
The first sentence I agree with but the second I don't. Maybe it's just me but when you start playing a new game is the first question you ask, "How long until I'm done?"
There's no obligation to hit max level nor any time table to do so. As long as the game continues to be fun why not continue playing even if max level is almost impossible to reach.
Maybe players have become so conditioned to achieving this "milestone" that the thought of not being able to do so in the near future is discouraging?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
In some way I can agree with you OP. Playing a game there should be levels for players to learn how to play the game without those learnings it will be even more caos in the gaming.
Same as if your kids had no childehood,but at 3 month age went out having sex with your nabors vife and using drugs and stuff.
I also suspect that the "blockbuster MMO" that tries to be all things to all people is dying out, none of them other than WoW have really been that successful, especially lately. I think we will see more niche and focused MMOs with much leaner production budgets. (I personally would be very glad for this change.)
Yes. The most recent big success in online games are LoL and WoT which are focused pvp games. Virtual worlds are not even needed.
LoL has nothing to do with MMORPGs. You could say the same thing about Call of Duty but there is no correlation exceot they're online games.
Not if these games take audience away from MMORPGs.
D3 is not a MMO but lots of MMO players play D3 (in fact, at least 1.2M uses Wow annual pass to get D3). A minute playing D3 is a minute not playing a MMO.
Comments
I actually enjoyed leveling up in games like Everquest. If you are going to have levels, and build zones in order to level through it might as well take time and effort to get through them. Whats the point of building low levels in games like ToR when people just blow through them in a couple of days? How many low level worlds did they make that could have just been skipped over?
I see two choices with levels. Either make it a trip that takes a long time and requires a bit of effort. Or just don't have levels and make your zones end game progression. Imagine if Tor again had used all those worlds for different end game zones instead of mid game filler that people rushed over without looking at.
Levels kind of make content stupid to me. Why is the giant fanged beast now hitting your cloth armored character like its tickling them because your guy has reach magical platforms of progressions. When you have progression based on usage and it's shallower you can have places on planets that are always dangerous to even players who've been playing for a long time. That makes the world more livelier.
You design worlds where say like the Burning Crusades Outland. Due to level progression these places become trivial once you out level it. So all that time and effort placed into these places and the mystique of fighting giant demon is lost because your suddenly too powerful to be touched. To me I would make the Outlands somewhere if you quested or visited it would always be dangerous.
To me that's the difference between focusing on the world vs. focusing on leveling. The world and lore seem to always come at expensive of leveling progression because its easier to just make quest hubs to hand hold leveling.
That isn't a function of the levels though, it is a function of how much a game gives you per level. WoW tends to make levels extremely important. I should be able to walk into a newbie zone and blow it up like it is nothing at max level, that is progression. A black belt can beat unlimited numbers of white belts etc. The problem with most games is they put too much power in levels. A level 10 in WoW can wipe the floor with endless lvl 1 mobs, that is a bit different.
I agree but as to why games are designed this way now it comes down to a combination of money and the way a lot of players are these days. Most of the new generation of players who grew up with things like Diablo and WoW instead of real pen and paper RPGs don't look at these games as an adventure or a journey. It is more like a part time job to them. This is why they "min-max" because when you look at leveling like a job you want to do it the fastest and most efficient way possible to get your pay (skills/loot/bragging rights).
Blizzard figured out how to exploit this and other companies have followed them. Rather than having to make tons of new zones and content for a game in which there is no or a very high level cap which is obviously expensive or have players spend months or years leveling in the same zones, which most people would get bored with, If you have an easily achieved level cap followed by prolonged "endgame" these min-max players will grind the same dungeon over and over just to get one piece of gear. Then when you finally do release an expansion, all their "work" becomes useless and the whole process starts again so it's much more cost effective for the company.
I'd love games to come out with proper RPG slow progression and no level cap but the trend in themepark design seems to be going away from that to even faster leveling experiences. One reason why I don't really get excited about new themepark games anymore, no matter what else they bring to the table they all seem to share this design philosophy.
exactly. This is why i keep saying that the generic questing needs to die in mmos and have more dynamic leveling content that doesnt repeat, keeps progressing. It would progress slowly but not repeating over and over the same things. This way people dont get bored of the same static quest grinds with every single character doing the same. And on top of that, the slow pace would give the devs enough time to keep putting content to keep it going.
If you mean dynamic like in GW2 or FF14,no thanks.Running around solo in a herd is not my idea of fun.I would rather have the so called 'generic' quests than 'dynamic' that are constantly on a loop every 5 minutes.I think 'dynamic' is less dynamic than generic in MMORPG so far.
I'm hoping Skyrim hinted at the future of this type of MMO with its procedurally generated quests or you could look at a game like Dwarf Fortress if you prefer. This is potentially a way for MMOs to make infinite amounts of new content without having to pay thousands of human developers to continually churn it out. Of course computer AI needs to get a lot better to make these form of quests any more engaging than the "kill 10 rats" variety but it's the future I think.
uh, yeah you do.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yes, you do "level up" in real life. Infant --> child ---> teen-ager ---> adult Yes, you do "level up" in real life. Newspaper boy ---> part-timer in a store ----> full-time job Yes, you do "level up" in real life. Kindergarten ---> elementary school ---> high school ---> college ----> post-graduate school Yes, people get better at what they do. You wouldn't like it if your doctor or lawyer only had whatever skills they had when they graduated med/law school. That's true for ANY profession that pays more than minimum wage.
If I was going to see a Dr, I'd rather he be on a skill based system than a level based one. any idiot can get to lvl cap :P
Life is more complicated than a one dimensional mmo game. Progression in life has multiple measures. "Levels" have many attributes and aren't so clearly compartmentalized as mmo levels are. They're still sort of there though. Life is also skill based and the levels people attain are often dependent or influence by their skills.
Here's one small example. When I was in the US Navy as a nuclear machinist mate (my class), I had to take an exam to level up, but there were also several other factors I had to meet in order to advance. The test was a measure of skill. There were also a string of personal evaluations, recommendations, and competency checks. I did level, the first time up, then I mustered out and started leveling in other areas of my life, or continued leveling those already started.
Life is more complicated than a video game, this is a surprise? I mean really?
i didnt mention those 2 games but yes. Take those ideas and make them bigger and better. The only legit way to stay long term in an mmo anymore is that way. Specially if they want us to keep paying them to put out content. 1-2 years doing the same things every day over and over while the devs sit on their lawrels just releasing hotfixes is not my idea of paying for content. If we have to wait that long at least we should have enough dynamic content to tolerate the process with the less repetition possible, no matter how slow the process is.
Think his comment was a bit more subtle. Meaning he was giving the alternative of not using levels, but skills that progress individually on practice.
Reason being he also stated this after in another post.
"When you have progression based on usage and it's shallower you can have places on planets that are always dangerous to even players who've been playing for a long time."
It's kinda vaguely described, but it is the distinction that characters aren't becoming globally tougher as they gain experience, but rather that they are learning the specialties in which they are training, and becoming more proficient with that.
It's still a form of leveling, really, but it's the notion that it feels more 'natural', as you are correlating it to practicing in a given academic, work, or experience field (with or without potential crossover to other fields).
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
A questions for the OP.
1. How would you control players levelling?
You need to keep in mind that players level at different speeds. A hardcore player investing 6+ hours/day will level faster than someone playing 2 hours/day. It won't take long at all before you start seeing a chasm being formed between these two groups and therefore an imbalance in their strengths. If there's no cap or wall in place to control players levelling, never allowing others to catch up, all but the top players would probably quit as they can't compete.
It's inbuilt into us humans to have the same opportunities that ALL other players have, especially in a MMO environment where we step out of reality and into our fantasy characters. For this reason, I could not see a game like this working. Even for the hardcore player, it would surely have to feel like being a mouse on a treadmill that never stops. People like to see obtainable goals.
See, this right here, is exactly the attitude in game design I fundamentally disagree with . Unless you're talking about a heavily PvP based game there's no reason why the casual and hardcore players have to compete with each other (even PvP can be balanced in such a way that a group of low levels can take out a smaller group of high levels). What you're talking about is like "gaming communism": Give everyone the same rewards regardless of the effort they're willing or able to put into the game. It leads to games where everyone is the same and few people really satisfied in the long term.
A lot of people want goals to aspire to that are hard for them to reach and then, when and if they reach, those goals to feel a bit special and distinct from the crowd .It's a cool feeling to see the person who has been playing the game much longer than you and think "maybe someday I can have that." thinking "I will have that in a week of playing with very little effort..." is much less cool and interesting.
I guess the bottom line is that I believe that games are about having fun and doing the best you can within the time amd ability constraints you have. Not worrying about what some other person has, just because they've been playing longer or have more time or can click faster or whatever. Games aren't that different from the rest of life, you should get out of them what you put into them.
ah HA!
Ok going to bed.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I don't have any issue with what you are saying at all. In fact, I wouldn't mind a game where the greater effort you put in the more you get from it.
For example, I'd love to see a game where the more effort you placed into crafting the more proficcient you became. Making it take years to perfect with numerous subskillls to be learn't, having few restrictions on what you could learn first etc etc could potentially be my dream game.
My comment was my perspective on how people psycologically and generally seem to be wired.
For a AAA gaming company to spend 100+ million on a game that targets a niche type of player would be a risk.
None of us really know what types of games the majority would like. We may know what they buy now but maybe the next big idea is a more challenging "hardcore" RPG that just hasn't been marketed correctly yet. I mean the original D&D sold pretty well back in the day for being a very small game made by a couple of guys obsessed with wargames and Tolkien.
I also suspect that the "blockbuster MMO" that tries to be all things to all people is dying out, none of them other than WoW have really been that successful, especially lately. I think we will see more niche and focused MMOs with much leaner production budgets. (I personally would be very glad for this change.)
The problem is;
-almost everyone is already at max level so you see empty leveling zones
-leveling content is poor
-devs nerf leveling to get everyone asap to end level to join THE GRIND.
-players who are higher in levels gain a major advantage (pvp ganking lowbies etc) so everyone is more looking into gaining as much levels as possible, resulting in a race.
There are some games that break with this tradition, though this is my experience though with themeparks.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Yes to a degree. Usage based systems are not really a form of leveling unless its a hybrid system like say Oblivion. in a level game there are power platforms. Gaining a level makes you character better in every way. For example a mage that hit max level only using a staff will be better casting spells than a mage who only used magic but 20 levels lower. Many times there are modifiers which make level differences more pronounced like resisting spells from lower level spells and having no magic resist.
With leveling games progression as with the DnD roots comes from defeating opponents and quest. Grinding mobs for no reason has been deemed tedious. Now we have a focus questing. What tends to happen is that you have an escalating content 1 through max and level specific zones. This means you need enough quest to level up a character. Problem is that there are only 7 real quest types and player segmenting by level specific content and zones. Players now want to be to end game asap and now you're dumbing down your whole character development and throwing away leveling areas. Next expansion comes out and offers more levels/progression and now the depths of hell tickle.
Usage based games generally don't have vast power progress since you are developing what you like. If you create an area designed to be difficult it will remain hard unless gear changes that. Players usually have less steep grinding to be incorporated into the content because there are no magical power platforms.
Yes. The most recent big success in online games are LoL and WoT which are focused pvp games. Virtual worlds are not even needed.
Yes. The most recent big success in online games are LoL and WoT which are focused pvp games. Virtual worlds are not even needed.
LoL has nothing to do with MMORPGs. You could say the same thing about Call of Duty but there is no correlation exceot they're online games.I understand your point but I really believe that is a bad way to look at it all. Leveling should never be more then a tutorial of how the game is played and how your character is played, nothing more. The filler levels are a waste of time and resources, end game should bring more to it other then do this raid dungeon and get this gear. MMOs fail the give the player a sense of investment into the game its self, MMOs should really feel like a second hobby. I am a former boxer, with boxing your build your self up in many ways and it becomes a way of life and you feel and see the investment, there is NO ROI in today's MMOs. In shadowbane you are invested in several ways, one you own are a part of a fortress that you or your guild design. Secondly you level your character ( takes about 1 week tops) then you allocate several different stat points to your liking. The heart of the game is acquire more land through siege warfare or just defend your land, you can also just raid farming/leveling grounds to acquire more cash.
All those things listed above really make the player feel as if they are invested and a sense of accomplishment, SWTOR almost had it right, they just need to get rid of 80% of their filler quest.
The first sentence I agree with but the second I don't. Maybe it's just me but when you start playing a new game is the first question you ask, "How long until I'm done?"
There's no obligation to hit max level nor any time table to do so. As long as the game continues to be fun why not continue playing even if max level is almost impossible to reach.
Maybe players have become so conditioned to achieving this "milestone" that the thought of not being able to do so in the near future is discouraging?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
^Best post in thread by far.
Not if these games take audience away from MMORPGs.
D3 is not a MMO but lots of MMO players play D3 (in fact, at least 1.2M uses Wow annual pass to get D3). A minute playing D3 is a minute not playing a MMO.