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Your favorite dungeoncrawl mmo ?

24

Comments

  • Neo_ViperNeo_Viper NotyourbusinessPosts: 598Member
    Originally posted by Ender4

     


    Originally posted by Neo_ViperAnd I get the feeling you didn't play many games except EQ, and that you also lie about EQ in order to avoid admitting you're wrong. I've played EQ along with any MMO released in the last 20 years. I know that what you say is just nonsense.

     

    For instance, both DAoC and AO had mobs you just couldn't solo. WoW didn't start anything.

    Oh, and also... EQ had mobs out in the world that you couldn't solo either. No matter what your class was. No matter how "skilled" you were as a player (as if skill ever mattered in an EQ clone, but whatever).


     

    Again completely missing the point of a post. I never said I could solo every single mob in EQ and that WoW was the first game where you couldn't solo every mob. Nothing you just said had anything to do with my post. This seems to be your MO, attack an argument by saying something completely unrelated to it.

    You could walk into a DAOC or AO dungeon and solo the mobs inside just fine. If I was waiting on a group I could just sit by the zone and kill junk and get XP in both of those games. I can do it in Age of Conan as well. All of those games cater to a wide range of players in their dungeons.

    And it is in any way efficient? You will almost die to kill mobs that give you crap XP compared of what you could do elsewhere. But yeah, sure, this makes those dungeons "solo friendly". Whatever you say, pal.

    If I stepped into a GW2 dungeon alone on my Engineer I couldn't kill the first mob by the entrance. If I stepped into a WoW dungeon alone on most classes I couldn't kill the first pack of mobs in the dungeon if they were still giving me XP (Hunter could, Paladin could, most couldn't). If I stepped into a dungeon in EQ alone I could sit there and kill the stuff near the zoneline while I waited. EQ dungeons were the best place to solo in the game because of the XP bonus they gave.

    Ah, you mean you could kill stuff you outleveled by 10+ levels solo? Oh yeah, I mean, man, that's such an accomplishment. I can squat bugs in my garden too, that doesn't make me a mighty warrior.

    I have played almost every MMORPG released at some point and the older games were in general much friendlier in this regard.

    AC1 and UO were both more friendy than either EQ or DAoC, or AO concerning solo players. The EQ clone model (which DAoC, AO but also WoW are part of) is by definition single player unfriendly. Yeah, you can solo stuff, sure, but it's highly inefficient and basically totally useless at the end. WoW actually brought back the single player playstyle as a viable one, unlike EQ, DAoC, AO and other clones before, and that's one of the reasons why it became so popular.

    I can accept that you say EQ is your favorite "dungeon crawl" MMO, hell, to each his own, but to say that EQ dungeons were "solo friendly" is huge bullshit I will not let said without disagreeing with it.

    My computer is better than yours.

  • Ender4Ender4 milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,253Member

    Everything I said was about mobs that gave me XP. None of this has anything to do with the OP's post so this will be my last one. The absolutely fastest way to level solo in EQ before Luclin was to solo in dungeons, period. They were by far the best XP in the game. Luclin changed it up some since they stopped giving the best XP mods in dungeons quite so much or sort of blended what was a zone and what was a dungeon more.

    If I wanted to solo in EQ you'd probably see me do something like closest lowbie dungeon to starting spot and then to Kurn's tower, then upper guk then Sol A or Crystal Caverns which were very solo friendly. Karnor's had a lot of solo spots. YOu could solo parts of Sebilis though not in its heyday when every mob was packed.

    I enjoy'd EQ dungeons for full groups more than most games as well but what I miss from older games is that the mobs in the dungeons were the same as the mobs outside in difficulty which made them much more friendly to non perfect/incomplete groups. If we had a group of 2 or 3 or I was solo I still could get XP quite easily in a dungeon in EQ and yes it was more efficient than however you leveled in EQ. I get the feeling you were a sit in Oasis and level on the same croc over and over type which was pitiful XP in comparison.

    I leveled at least 10 characters in EQ and all of them except the warrior did most of their solo time in a dungeon, usually while waiting for friends to show up.

    And don't bother giving some point by point response to this that talks about a bunch of stuff I didn't even say like you usually do. It has nothing to do with what the OP wanted to hear about and to be honest you are going to be the first person I ever block on a forum because you never seem to add anything useful to a discussion and I feel like i'm always being trolled when you join it.

  • JimmacJimmac TXPosts: 1,667Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Neo_Viper
    <>

    I don't know what's more nonsensical in that post.

    - That GW2 started the trend of "non soloable dungeons"... (which is hilarious).

    - That EQ dungeons where solo friendly.

    I actually think the first statement is the most ridiculous. Yeah, sure, MMO developers waited for 2012 to make a game which included dungeons requiring a group to complete. I won't repost the picture I added to my previous post, but you get it.

    He didn't say GW2 started that trend. Can you read?

    Also, you can definitely solo many spots in many EQ1 dungeons through Velious, at least assuming you are good, pick a class that can do it, and have the right gear.

  • Ice-QueenIce-Queen USA, GAPosts: 2,451Member Uncommon

    UO, Asheron's Call, and DAOC (Pre-ToA) had the best dungeons.

    No Mmo today can even compare to them, imo.

    People always coming and going in them, was the best.

    image

    What happens when you log off your characters????.....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
    Dark Age of Camelot

  • Ender4Ender4 milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,253Member

    Anyway back on topic for the OP.

    Games generally have one of two types of dungeons. Open or Instanced.

    Instanced dungeons like Tera the content is built for a full group and you really need at least close to a full group to do it. Usually speaking the mobs are harder than a normal mob so it precludes you from really having a chance to solo. You join a dungeon queue, do the dungeon and then start over again when you finish it. Some games have a harder mode of the basic dungeons for those who outgear the original mode but that is usually only a max level thing. So it sounds like you want one of these types of games that includes a hard mode so you can fit your challenge level properly.

    The open dungeons don't generally exist anymore and that is what i was talking about above. With an open dungeon you can do different parts of the dungeon based on the strength of the group you have, stuff respawns and multiple groups can be in there so you can't always do the part of the dungeon you want. What I liked about them is I could sit by zone solo killing junk while I waited for friends to show up (no dungeon finder). Then maybe one friend joins me and we push in and do the easier bosses, then two more show up and we do whatever we want. The challenge doesn't become finishing the dungeon as much as maximizing how much of it we can do with what we happen to have. You could kill the same boss over and over again though in most of these the boss didn't' always spawn, sometimes a normal mob would and you'd have to wait another 20 minutes or whatever to try again.

    The open dungeons were much more erratic and had more of a sense of danger to me. The instances are too clinical as every time you do the dungeon it is the same experience since most things don't respawn and the bosses are always up.

    I much preferred being able to do the dungeons with just a couple buddies instead of having to have a full group. So if you haven't tried a game with dungeons like that you might want to try it once. Most of the games pre-WoW were like this.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    I liked DDO's dungeons. The narrating DM was a nice touch too. Set the mood etc.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,677Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Neo_Viper
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

     

    Without a doubt, Asheron's Call. The diversity of dungeons, the numbers I can pick and choose from at any level range, the action-packed gameplay of slashing through the enemy and wading knee-deep in the dead... HELLZ YEAH.

    AC1 had great dungeons, I totally agree (200% actually), but what made the dungeons even greater than just farming them for XP (grouped with a bunch of bots...) was the quests linked to them.

    But no AC1 dungeon boss had the mechanics WoW dungeon bosses can have though.

    THANK. GOD.   

    AC was about the hack-n-slash, dungeon crawling experience (flood rooms, respawning, traps, etc) while WOW was modeled after EQ which is to trudge through 'trash mobs' to get to the high-mitigation/regen mountain of hit points in the final room that you whack at for a half hour in order to initiate the loot argument session.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    I prefer real dungeons where you can encounter players and its not all pre scripted. They feel more real and more exciting.

    I never found standing around with 12 other people waiting for the big bad boss that has been terrorizing the surround lands to spawn so we could all jump him and stomp his face in. I don't know how he ever had time to terrorize anything when he's only alive for 30 seconds at a time.

    For me wow was the best dungeon crawl. The encounters where all interesting and challanging. I stopped playing at the end of wrath though so never had to see them go really down hill.

    TERA is also fun. The combat style makes them very different than other mmos. They recycle bosses a bit too much but most of them have some type of unique attack.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,677Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by The1ceQueen

    UO, Asheron's Call, and DAOC (Pre-ToA) had the best dungeons.

    No Mmo today can even compare to them, imo.

    People always coming and going in them, was the best.

    I really liked that aspect of it. They felt more dynamic than the current dungeons. I mean, I can do Wailing Caverns, Scarlet Monastery and Zul'Farrak over and over again, enjoying each group run through, but the older public dungeons were great in a different way. You went to them for different reasons, you had different expectations of them, and the trade off of not having a scripted experience was that you had more control over your experience.

    In UO, if you wanted to just fight harpies at the entrance to Covetous you could do that endlessly and never need to go any further to enjoy it. If you wanted to hang out at the bottom of Deceit fighting lichlords, PKs and elementals, you could do that and skip the first four(?) levels entirely.

    In AC, some dungeons were a madhouse of mobs, others were just groups leveling in different pockets and some became cool traditions - people loved to aid the newbies through the Focusing Stone quest and several of the Atlan stone quests.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    I prefer real dungeons where you can encounter players and its not all pre scripted. They feel more real and more exciting. For that, there is no better MMO than Vanguard. No other MMO has dungeons as large, immersive, impressive, with so many secrets as Vanguard dungeons. It beats even old EQ.

    You make me regret quitting Vanguard a couple months after launch. I never did get to see any cool dungeons. The quest hubs annoyed me sufficiently to make me quit the game. Are there any good videos or screenshots of vanguard dungeons?

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • hfztthfztt GlostrupPosts: 841Member Uncommon

    DDO. I mean, its got Dungeon in the title... How can you go wrong with that?

    :p

    Seriously though, DDO offer a lot a very well designed dungeons. With all of them being offered in three difficulties and some in 6, there is enough challenge in there to keep you going for quite som time.

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,579Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ender4

    Anyway back on topic for the OP.

    Games generally have one of two types of dungeons. Open or Instanced.

    Instanced dungeons like Tera the content is built for a full group and you really need at least close to a full group to do it. Usually speaking the mobs are harder than a normal mob so it precludes you from really having a chance to solo. You join a dungeon queue, do the dungeon and then start over again when you finish it. Some games have a harder mode of the basic dungeons for those who outgear the original mode but that is usually only a max level thing. So it sounds like you want one of these types of games that includes a hard mode so you can fit your challenge level properly.

    The open dungeons don't generally exist anymore and that is what i was talking about above. With an open dungeon you can do different parts of the dungeon based on the strength of the group you have, stuff respawns and multiple groups can be in there so you can't always do the part of the dungeon you want. What I liked about them is I could sit by zone solo killing junk while I waited for friends to show up (no dungeon finder). Then maybe one friend joins me and we push in and do the easier bosses, then two more show up and we do whatever we want. The challenge doesn't become finishing the dungeon as much as maximizing how much of it we can do with what we happen to have. You could kill the same boss over and over again though in most of these the boss didn't' always spawn, sometimes a normal mob would and you'd have to wait another 20 minutes or whatever to try again.

    The open dungeons were much more erratic and had more of a sense of danger to me. The instances are too clinical as every time you do the dungeon it is the same experience since most things don't respawn and the bosses are always up.

    I much preferred being able to do the dungeons with just a couple buddies instead of having to have a full group. So if you haven't tried a game with dungeons like that you might want to try it once. Most of the games pre-WoW were like this.

    Do people still play these older games? They sound great.
    :)

    image
  • MithrandolirMithrandolir The Deep Woods, NJPosts: 1,698Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

     

    Without a doubt, Asheron's Call. The diversity of dungeons, the numbers I can pick and choose from at any level range, the action-packed gameplay of slashing through the enemy and wading knee-deep in the dead... HELLZ YEAH.

     

     

  • RudedawgCDNRudedawgCDN Vancouver, BCPosts: 485Member Uncommon

    Asherons Call - the best!

    Vanguard

    EQ1

     

     

  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Amherest, MAPosts: 1,198Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    I prefer real dungeons where you can encounter players and its not all pre scripted. They feel more real and more exciting.

    I never found standing around with 12 other people waiting for the big bad boss that has been terrorizing the surround lands to spawn so we could all jump him and stomp his face in. I don't know how he ever had time to terrorize anything when he's only alive for 30 seconds at a time.

    Thankfully none of the dungeons in any MMOs I ever played worked like that. I played good MMOs. Not your ficionalized version of EverQuest.

     

  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Amherest, MAPosts: 1,198Member
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    I prefer real dungeons where you can encounter players and its not all pre scripted. They feel more real and more exciting.

     

     

    For that, there is no better MMO than Vanguard. No other MMO has dungeons as large, immersive, impressive, with so many secrets as Vanguard dungeons. It beats even old EQ.


     

    You make me regret quitting Vanguard a couple months after launch. I never did get to see any cool dungeons. The quest hubs annoyed me sufficiently to make me quit the game. Are there any good videos or screenshots of vanguard dungeons?

    I doubt it. The game changed a lot from launch, performance wise for the better, gameplay wise for the worse. (more quest hubs, less death penalty, less complexity). But the dungeons are still there, and still the best in the industry.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,677Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    I prefer real dungeons where you can encounter players and its not all pre scripted. They feel more real and more exciting.

    I never found standing around with 12 other people waiting for the big bad boss that has been terrorizing the surround lands to spawn so we could all jump him and stomp his face in. I don't know how he ever had time to terrorize anything when he's only alive for 30 seconds at a time.

    Thankfully none of the dungeons in any MMOs I ever played worked like that. I played good MMOs. Not your ficionalized version of EverQuest.

    Which are the MMOs that you played where the boss mob was anywhere other than his spawn room inside his dungeon/instance?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • GaeluianGaeluian Dousman, WIPosts: 83Member Uncommon

    We'll never get the feeling that back that was EQ1. Dungeons were life. 2 to 3 hour corpse runs, contested bosses  with other guilds and fighting about it, 15 hour Halls of Testing, 4 or 5 hour old Sleepers' Tomb farming for primal weapons, Veeshan's Peak with 2 minute respawns and no  safe place to just 'whew, that was close!' and no camping. 

    There is absolutely no comparison with EQ1.  Everything now is just too easy.

  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Amherest, MAPosts: 1,198Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    I prefer real dungeons where you can encounter players and its not all pre scripted. They feel more real and more exciting.

    I never found standing around with 12 other people waiting for the big bad boss that has been terrorizing the surround lands to spawn so we could all jump him and stomp his face in. I don't know how he ever had time to terrorize anything when he's only alive for 30 seconds at a time.

    Thankfully none of the dungeons in any MMOs I ever played worked like that. I played good MMOs. Not your ficionalized version of EverQuest.

    Which are the MMOs that you played where the boss mob was anywhere other than his spawn room inside his dungeon/instance?

    Dark Age of Camelot had wandering multiple boss mobs, but that's not what I was speaking against. DAoC never had spawn camping because it wasn't a poorly designed game. Damon was painting an incorrect picture of things. In his version of reality, all non instanced MMOs had boss camping, and in all instanced MMOs, the bosses apparently wandered around causing damage and attacking things (this is entirely delusional)

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    I prefer real dungeons where you can encounter players and its not all pre scripted. They feel more real and more exciting.

    I never found standing around with 12 other people waiting for the big bad boss that has been terrorizing the surround lands to spawn so we could all jump him and stomp his face in. I don't know how he ever had time to terrorize anything when he's only alive for 30 seconds at a time.

    Thankfully none of the dungeons in any MMOs I ever played worked like that. I played good MMOs. Not your ficionalized version of EverQuest.

    Which are the MMOs that you played where the boss mob was anywhere other than his spawn room inside his dungeon/instance?

    Dark Age of Camelot had wandering multiple boss mobs, but that's not what I was speaking against. DAoC never had spawn camping because it wasn't a poorly designed game. Damon was painting an incorrect picture of things. In his version of reality, all non instanced MMOs had boss camping, and in all instanced MMOs, the bosses apparently wandered around causing damage and attacking things (this is entirely delusional)

    Is that what I said ?

    The story to go kill a boss is normally he's been doing something bad. Not that he actually ever did.  EQ 2 was terrible for boss camping ( when I played it ) SWG had caves that always had groups sitting around waiting for a nightsister or whatever to spawn. The raider fort while fun was always full of ppl waiting for respawns. But I guess non of that ever happened because you say it didn't ?

    It does sound like you're trying to say that in all the open world dungeons you've played, you have never had to wait for a boss to spawn because it was being camped....and that I'm delusional for things this happens.....funny.

    Where did I say anything about instance dungeons spilling out into the real world...trying a bit too hard there ?

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by Arclan   Originally posted by Tibernicuspa I prefer real dungeons where you can encounter players and its not all pre scripted. They feel more real and more exciting.     For that, there is no better MMO than Vanguard. No other MMO has dungeons as large, immersive, impressive, with so many secrets as Vanguard dungeons. It beats even old EQ.
      You make me regret quitting Vanguard a couple months after launch. I never did get to see any cool dungeons. The quest hubs annoyed me sufficiently to make me quit the game. Are there any good videos or screenshots of vanguard dungeons?
    I doubt it. The game changed a lot from launch, performance wise for the better, gameplay wise for the worse. (more quest hubs, less death penalty, less complexity). But the dungeons are still there, and still the best in the industry.


    Thanks for the link! :)

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,572Member Uncommon

    Bards Tale 1 - I remember mapping out the entire game on squared graph paper back in the day (Amiga 500 days)

    I know not an MMO - but that it was my favorite :)

    EQ1 and AC both come to mind. 

    Open world dungeons had HUGE issues once they became crowded - but feeling the rush when they were fresh, unknown (no online guides or maps) - that was just pure joy!

    The mystery of not knowing what lies around the corner - or how to handle the pulls, yeah - that was so awesome.

     

  • RedcorRedcor Austin, TXPosts: 426Member
    Originally posted by furbans

    Hnads down, AoC.  I can't say anything about TSW though.  Funcom tend to develop their dungeons very well.  There is a challenge where fresh new content is not something that people can plow through and actually takes time to figure out to complete.  I especially like how you needed an OT or 2nd tank and 2 diff type of healers unlike every other MMO where 3/5-2/3 was all DPS.

    Don't know if they changed or not when I played years ago back around Godslayer release.  The combat combo stuff drove me nuts, was aggrivating playing a tank n trying to position to control the situation and having to put in the combo keys to get your abilities off.

    +1  The most challenging and therefor fun. And yeas its hard on the tanks but only because people still have not learned how to dps in the trinity. Rather than go ball out right off to bat you go by the DDD rule.  D debuff 1st - D then dots (bleeds, tics) - D lastly big DPS.

    Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can
    be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
    -Robert E. Howard

  • LauraFrostLauraFrost New York, NYPosts: 95Member
    Originally posted by Neo_Viper

    And I get the feeling you didn't play many games except EQ (or you are conveniently ignoring those games to fuel your "argumentation"), and that you also lie about EQ in order to avoid admitting you're wrong. I've played EQ along with any MMO released in the last 20 years. I know that what you say is just nonsense. EQ dungeons, solo friendly? Please, man, give me a break. A big break.

    About WoW changing the dynamic... you're wrong again. For instance, both DAoC and AO had mobs (and not even bosses!) you just couldn't solo. WoW didn't start anything.

    Oh, and also... EQ had mobs out in the world (aka not in dungeons) that you couldn't solo either. No matter what your class was. No matter how "skilled" you were as a player (as if skill ever mattered in an EQ clone, but whatever).

    So yes, I call nonsense.

     

    Would you call it nonsense when I tell you that both you and him are correct?

    In essence many classes can solo parts of EQ's dungeons (except maybe the most recent expansion's top tier raid dungeons; but not always). I know you both know that in almost every single dungeon on EQ some class(s) can solo somewhere.

     

    I remember when PoP first was introduced and hearing that our top Wizard was soloing in Plane of Fire.... I didn't believe it but it's true!

    I soloed in many dungeons (at their own level) with my SK mostly "aggro kiting" and "fear kiting" if I can. I know it's retarded and slow but I did it because I just wanted to. So, honestly you can't say that soloing somewhere in part of a dungeon is "nonesense" because we did it. But also if I say EQ dungeons were "solo friendly" it can be misunderstood because even for groups EQ dungeons were never "friendly".

    I think what he wast trying to say is "several parts of EQ dungeons were soloable".

     

    Cheers.

     

     

  • LauraFrostLauraFrost New York, NYPosts: 95Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    I prefer real dungeons where you can encounter players and its not all pre scripted. They feel more real and more exciting.

    I never found standing around with 12 other people waiting for the big bad boss that has been terrorizing the surround lands to spawn so we could all jump him and stomp his face in. I don't know how he ever had time to terrorize anything when he's only alive for 30 seconds at a time.

    Yet you're fine with spawning a virtual reality of your own McDungeon where a copy of your favorite boss is conveniently cloned for you and your group's satisfaction. Thousands of the same "Mr. TerroizeYourAss" boss spawned for every Timmy and Jimmy, hurray!

     

    *facepalm*

     

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