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We got a MMO that tries to make the world living and still people complain It's not alive enough

TorgrimTorgrim Member CommonPosts: 2,088

We are used to static NPC quest hubs, nothing really happends in the zone you quest in your favorite MMO, sure you can read what happend but you really can't see it.

Anet is trying hard with thier living world thing, yes I find some of them boring and grinding but atleast they are trying to make something that few MMO ever dared to try, they try to make the world living and in a flux of change in a minor degree, for me atleast that is a nice kick in the right direction how a MMO world can feel alive and not static, sure Anet have made some blunders but you have to make some errors to learn from your misstakes.

But sadly some people want the whole power for themselves to change the world and that power is a really bad thing, there are so many gamers out there who love and thrives to just fuck things up and that's why I feel Anet is on the right track, they are making the living world not some moronic and sick players.

You can hate or love this living world events but you have to see that this is a first step in something NOT static and I hope more future MMOs takes after Anets bold aproach on how a gaming world evolves and hopefully improves on it.

 

 

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

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Comments

  • xeniarxeniar Member UncommonPosts: 805
    You fail to see that This is just quest hubs in disguise. it makes the world apear living but it does not feel living at all.
  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Member UncommonPosts: 3,713

    I can't agree more. People constantly complain they want something new, and a company actually tries something new and they just complain about it. Love it or hate it you should at least respect a company for steering away from the norm. The trinity, static quests, are all pretty standard these days.

    People just like to hate, I try to be as unbiased and understanding as possible when it comes to judging games. A lot of passion and hard work goes into these things and it's so disrespectful the way some people attempt to summarize a game with "it sucks, just a lame cash grab, another boring themepark."

    Anyone who has actually played GW2 can see it's very different from your standard MMO. I refuse to believe anyone who says otherwise has actually played it or didn't make up their mind before trying it.

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  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Member UncommonPosts: 3,713
    Originally posted by xeniar
    You fail to see that This is just quest hubs in disguise. it makes the world apear living but it does not feel living at all.

    It's still a step in the right direction. There are no "hubs" in fact. You can't just go to one spot and gather up all the quests. You have to traverse the terrain and catch things as they happen. It's not uncommon to start in one spot and end up on the complete opposite side of the map and not realize because you were just catching things as it happens.

    The whole vibe is just different. In a "quest hub" scenario you run through the hub and just grab all the exclamation points and follow the quests. In GW2 in time you certainly can remember where certain events are and go there hoping to catch it happening. But in a normal play through for your first time shit just happens and you don't know when or where it's going to happen.

    I love it when a champion mob spawns and an NPC runs over to me to tell me whats happening. I run over and engage the mob knowing full well I can't defeat it on my own. I manage to hold it off for a while and suddenly other adventurers show up and we tackle the beast together! Success!

    In a quest hub scenario I would have spawned this mob through a quest, killed it on my own as the others were waiting in line for their chance to finish the quest.

    I'm sorry, it's a totally different experience and if you can't see that you're just blind.

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  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Member UncommonPosts: 3,713
    Originally posted by DMKano

    I think many players want a virtual ecosystem, not a fake attempt at making one.

    A true virtual ecosystem would have *finite* resources, that's the one obvious problem with every single major MMORPG, you can mine and cut trees and kill animals for leather and they will keep respawning infinitely. Every item build could always be deconstructed into raw resources to be remade into something else. 

    Overfarming of any resource (be it plant, ore, or even goblins, giants etc..) should send ripples through the entire ecosystem - that's the problem, a virtual ecosystem would be VERY hard to implement in a MMORPG without crazy overhead costs.

    But that is what I'd like to see - a naturally balanced system that responds to players actions - you think killing all the goblins might be a good thing, but you didn't know that goblins also kept the undead in check, and without them now you are engulfed in undead, and they are 5x worse. Also without the goblins - the knowledge and magics they used is almost impossible to find, so entire branches of goblin magic and crafting would not be able to be progressed anymore for example - real impact to players.

    The AI would have to be pretty phenomenal, but the game with finite resources would revolutionize MMORPG genre entirely.

     

    If EQNext manages to do what they say they are doing we might just get that or at least something similar. But people will still call it a quest hub in disguise. There is just no pleasing some people and their opinions of everything are pretty much hateful. They only live for causing grief to others who still genuinely have an interest and passion in gaming/MMOs.

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  • xeniarxeniar Member UncommonPosts: 805
    Originally posted by Fendel84M

    I can't agree more. People constantly complain they want something new, and a company actually tries something new and they just complain about it. Love it or hate it you should at least respect a company for steering away from the norm. The trinity, static quests, are all pretty standard these days.

    People just like to hate, I try to be as unbiased and understanding as possible when it comes to judging games. A lot of passion and hard work goes into these things and it's so disrespectful the way some people attempt to summarize a game with "it sucks, just a lame cash grab, another boring themepark."

    Anyone who has actually played GW2 can see it's very different from your standard MMO. I refuse to believe anyone who says otherwise has actually played it or didn't make up their mind before trying it.

    Oke i have to agree its diffrent their mechanics are diffrent.

    It's nice that the removed the standard quest hubs. but they replaced it with quest hubs in diguise. your still doing the same thing you did in the other themeparks but now its a sort of random. but im still moving from heart to hearth and doing the thing inbetween.

    Also the world of GW2 it doesn't give me any feelings at all its another MMO world.

    The only games wich make me feel anything where EQOA EQ2 and WAR, EQOA my first 3d mmo ive litteraly sat in that game and watched the sunrise in pure aww. WoW comes close to it i do feel a love for each zone when i enter it but after while it feels abit boring again it loses its magic) EQ2 has the exact same world as EQOA its in a diffrent time on a diffrent system with diffrent grapichs but the world feels alike that is hard to accomplish. And warhammer online. when i was cruising aroudn the dwarf and orc zones (my fav races) i felt the ongoing war. a demolisched Tank on the battlefield, i cannot tell you why i cannot explain why its diffrent from other games but it was.

    Now GW2 suposedly has to feel more alive and its a nice touch having those npc's around and all but the zones apart from i geus the human and barbarian starter zones it diddn't feel that awesome for me. They made a setp in the right direction but their not there yet.

  • Ender4Ender4 Member UncommonPosts: 2,247

    I think people are misinterpreting his post a little bit. He isn't talking about the normal events or the hearts, he is talking about the living world events. For those who don't currently play GW2 if you go to Kessex Hills the actual zone has changed and part of the change is supposed to be permanent.

    I would argue that Asheron's Call has been making monthly updates for 10+ years now though, so this isn't something new with GW2. I'd also argue that the GW2 events tend to stink and that is why people complain about them.

    If EQN delivers on half of what they say they will it will change the genre imo even if the game itself doesn't work well. A lot of games coming out in the next few years have great new ideas that could change things, hopefully some of them are good games but even if they aren't the ideas get passed along to the next generation and that is a good thing.

    WAR added public quests which were pretty bad. Rift added them as Rifts in their game, GW2 built on them for the event chains in GW2 etc. Even if the game is bad like WAR, the ideas it brings get put into future games.

    Tortage was mostly a marketing ploy in AOC so people would try it and think it was the entire game but TSW took the same concept and actually made it the full game etc.

  • elockeelocke Member UncommonPosts: 4,335

    That's because every zone feels like a box.  It has nothing to do with quest hubs or hidden quest hubs, those things work fine.  It's the lack of actually changing the world based on your actions as well as the extreme lack of a real progression system to grow your character.  Plus, the story just sucks all around and missing the nuance that GW1 had when it comes to story and style of the game.

    All classes feel very similar in play, even while having different skills it's still the same setup of reactionary skills as opposed to taking action and controlling the playfield/battle in various ways.  This is also attributed to the fact that there is no real set role per class, so they are all quite homogenized.   They took away the Trinity and most people realize that the Trinity wasn't the problem with other MMOs.

    I still hop into GW2 from time to time but I play for about a day and then leave because there is nothing to hold me, no draw to keep me playing.   I log in every month hoping that's changed, but so far, no luck.

  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967

    I apologize for getting hyped up when ArenaNet used this new buzzword called "Living World" and started the hype train moving for this new fantastical genre changing feature. I apologize for being let down when my introduction to this "Living World" was rummaging dead bodies along a path while lighting some fires.

     

    While I'm at it, I apologize for being sold on a lot of things ArenaNet marketed and being later dissapointed.

     

    On the bright side after experiencing Red5 and Firefall I have learned not to take Guild Wars 2 and ArenaNet for granted and look at the good things.

    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • TatercakeTatercake Member UncommonPosts: 286

    well my opinion is that there a bunch of spoiled kids that exspect everything and  dont reely do anything to help  a online community they just take from it and bitch about it

    if i offend you good i care not 

  • NephelaiNephelai Member UncommonPosts: 185
    Originally posted by Fendel84M
    Originally posted by xeniar
    You fail to see that This is just quest hubs in disguise. it makes the world apear living but it does not feel living at all.

    It's still a step in the right direction. There are no "hubs" in fact. You can't just go to one spot and gather up all the quests. You have to traverse the terrain and catch things as they happen. It's not uncommon to start in one spot and end up on the complete opposite side of the map and not realize because you were just catching things as it happens.

    The whole vibe is just different. In a "quest hub" scenario you run through the hub and just grab all the exclamation points and follow the quests. In GW2 in time you certainly can remember where certain events are and go there hoping to catch it happening. But in a normal play through for your first time shit just happens and you don't know when or where it's going to happen.

    I love it when a champion mob spawns and an NPC runs over to me to tell me whats happening. I run over and engage the mob knowing full well I can't defeat it on my own. I manage to hold it off for a while and suddenly other adventurers show up and we tackle the beast together! Success!

    In a quest hub scenario I would have spawned this mob through a quest, killed it on my own as the others were waiting in line for their chance to finish the quest.

    I'm sorry, it's a totally different experience and if you can't see that you're just blind.

    While I admit something a little different is always good its the same thing in a different wrapper that only excites until you've opened it. Unfortunately people need tasks (quests) in MMO's otherwise they get bored and leave so they have to be part of it and the flip side of the problem is trying to make then unique and non repetitive.

     

    Personally I think its the model - the just cant generate enough new things to do for the low cost model they run. I have no problem paying more money for decent entertainment I do that every week so I'd prefer to pay say $15 per week BUT have something new to experience every week.

     

    I've outgrown (in age and salary) syncing my life into  MMO's cheap form of repetitive entertainment.

     

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,898
    Originally posted by xeniar
    You fail to see that This is just quest hubs in disguise. it makes the world apear living but it does not feel living at all.

    It was an OK first step in making questing more interesting.  But they touted it as something it really wasn't.

     

    Frankly, my favorite leveling experience in an MMO was in SWTOR.  It's clear they spent a fortune on it.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Member UncommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    Originally posted by xeniar
    You fail to see that This is just quest hubs in disguise. it makes the world apear living but it does not feel living at all.

    It was an OK first step in making questing more interesting.  But they touted it as something it really wasn't.

     

    Frankly, my favorite leveling experience in an MMO was in SWTOR.  It's clear they spent a fortune on it.

    I agree on both points. GW2 tried and it worked for some. SWTOR was the best questing I've done but ...considering the cost I can't say it was worth it for them.

  • Ender4Ender4 Member UncommonPosts: 2,247

    I'm not far into it yet so it might change but right now my favorite is TSW. The quests are actually somewhat interesting and the dialog isn't so stilted and goofy. Not to mention the side quests have so much more freedom and variety to them than most games. They also managed to use the quest markers on the map but not always make the actual location of quest items obvious so there is a bit more exploration to things.

  • xeniarxeniar Member UncommonPosts: 805
    Originally posted by Ender4

    I'm not far into it yet so it might change but right now my favorite is TSW. The quests are actually somewhat interesting and the dialog isn't so stilted and goofy. Not to mention the side quests have so much more freedom and variety to them than most games. They also managed to use the quest markers on the map but not always make the actual location of quest items obvious so there is a bit more exploration to things.

    TSW is really good on quests. making you think etc. i like that. altho alot of times i had to jsut search the internet for certain things. stuff like beethoven is not evryones intrest.

    But this questsystem would work brilliantly in a fantasy mmo, Youd have to search for the awnser in the game by exploration

  • iridescenceiridescence Member UncommonPosts: 1,552

    Heh...I remember getting so hyped up when they talked about their dynamic events and how they would have these long chains and the zones would totally change based on what the players did. Turned out it's nothing like that of course. They're just public quests on cooldown timers.  I lost a lot of faith in GW2 the first time the NPC I "saved" in an escort event just respawned again five minutes later in the same place asking to be saved again. "Living World" indeed.  Now I hear EQ:N repeating a lot of the same hype for their game. We shall see...

     

    Not saying GW2 is a bad game, it does a lot of things well.  But ANet is victim of their own hype. It's very much a themepark game, not a living world, right down to the tons of Steam-like achievements that serve as one of your main motivations for playing.  Gotta respect them for at least pumping out way more content than most games though, even if a lot of it isn't very compelling to me.

     

  • Ender4Ender4 Member UncommonPosts: 2,247

    I felt you could read between the lines with the GW2 dynamic events. I was pretty comfortable with the concept that they were just linked event chains from the videos they put out and that nothing would be permanent. The way EQN describes their game I would feel violated if that is what they release because they are selling a lot of these things as one time events and not just repeated events. They are selling a realistic AI where the game itself can auto generate content, dynamic spawn locations etc.

  • GolelornGolelorn Member RarePosts: 1,395
    Originally posted by xeniar
    You fail to see that This is just quest hubs in disguise. it makes the world apear living but it does not feel living at all.

    Exactly.

  • ThupliThupli Member RarePosts: 1,318
    Originally posted by Golelorn
    Originally posted by xeniar
    You fail to see that This is just quest hubs in disguise. it makes the world apear living but it does not feel living at all.

    Exactly.

    If you think you can get a half dozen quests done just by staying in a 50 m radius of a quest giver, you are completely off base and flat out wrong.

     

    ill agree that a quest is still a quest, but I'll take the GW2 format any day over the wow model.

     

  • Ender4Ender4 Member UncommonPosts: 2,247


    Originally posted by Thupli
    Originally posted by Golelorn Originally posted by xeniar You fail to see that This is just quest hubs in disguise. it makes the world apear living but it does not feel living at all.
    Exactly.
    If you think you can get a half dozen quests done just by staying in a 50 m radius of a quest giver, you are completely off base and flat out wrong.

     

    ill agree that a quest is still a quest, but I'll take the GW2 format any day over the wow model.

     


    Most GW2 hearts are 3 or 4 quests in one. You can do any of 3 or 4 actions in one small area which is basically how WoW quests are set up too. They hide it better, it works better, but it is a modified quest system and not something truly new.

  • TheRealDarkeusTheRealDarkeus Member UncommonPosts: 314
    It is a good first step.  I think GW has to work on defining roles better, The Living Story stuff is on a good path.  The lack of roles is what is the problem to this game.
  • KhinRuniteKhinRunite Member Posts: 879
    Originally posted by Ender4

     


    Originally posted by Thupli

    Originally posted by Golelorn

    Originally posted by xeniar You fail to see that This is just quest hubs in disguise. it makes the world apear living but it does not feel living at all.
    Exactly.
    If you think you can get a half dozen quests done just by staying in a 50 m radius of a quest giver, you are completely off base and flat out wrong.

     

     

    ill agree that a quest is still a quest, but I'll take the GW2 format any day over the wow model.

     


     

    Most GW2 hearts are 3 or 4 quests in one. You can do any of 3 or 4 actions in one small area which is basically how WoW quests are set up too. They hide it better, it works better, but it is a modified quest system and not something truly new.

    I can't recall a quest in WoW with an 'OR' condition. I had to do everything they tasked me to do in order to complete a quest, which is different from a Heart, which can be completed by doing any or all of the tasks. Oh and Hearts were never touted as something new. They were in fact placed there to facilitate the transition of existing MMO players.

    To OP: This living world is great and I'm still enjoying the game, but as it stands it's still the same content update as other MMOs that add new land masses, or change existing ones. I'm still waiting for that update where effects of our actions are more long lasting, has bigger scope (rather than confined within an area in a zone), and does not require another patch to change the scenery.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,898
    Originally posted by FlyByKnight

    I apologize for getting hyped up when ArenaNet used this new buzzword called "Living World" and started the hype train moving for this new fantastical genre changing feature. I apologize for being let down when my introduction to this "Living World" was rummaging dead bodies along a path while lighting some fires.

     

    While I'm at it, I apologize for being sold on a lot of things ArenaNet marketed and being later dissapointed.

     

    On the bright side after experiencing Red5 and Firefall I have learned not to take Guild Wars 2 and ArenaNet for granted and look at the good things.

    Stop polluting this thread with FACTS.  That video totally mislead the public on what dynamic events were like.

     

    In that clip he states there aren't static questgivers.  Well technically that's true, but guess where you get your quest rewards.  You guessed it, static NPCs.

     

    It simply wasn't that great a change from what existed before and it wasn't more fun to level in GW2 than in some other MMOs.

  • Ender4Ender4 Member UncommonPosts: 2,247


    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Ender4 I felt you could read between the lines with the GW2 dynamic events. I was pretty comfortable with the concept that they were just linked event chains from the videos they put out and that nothing would be permanent. The way EQN describes their game I would feel violated if that is what they release because they are selling a lot of these things as one time events and not just repeated events. They are selling a realistic AI where the game itself can auto generate content, dynamic spawn locations etc.
    In one of the EQN ask the devs they asked them about the whole "raising of halas" that could go on for weeks - guess what, you can't fail, I mean if one server fails to do it, they can just start again later, so eventually no matter what - every server will raise Halas and complete the event eventually.

    That's my whole point, you CANNOT FAIL in any MMORPG, you cannot fail in EQN either - it's a script that just restarts and you can have a do-over.

    MMORPGs only harbor success, and success without a possibility of failure is utterly meaningless.

    I'd love to play a game where player actions if careless and severe enough *collectively* could have sever consequences on the virtual world, with players losing their power in game - yes actual real cause and effect, real loss, none of this slap you on the wrist stuff.

    If we are able to build powerful and great heroes, there needs to be a possibility of equally great failure.

     


    Do you recall which one? I thought I had seen them all and I don't recall seeing this?

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722
    Originally posted by xeniar
    You fail to see that This is just quest hubs in disguise. it makes the world apear living but it does not feel living at all.

    it succeeded where everyone else failed. It took the exact same old questing system and made it even better, less static, more mixed so anything you do in an area contributes to the questing. Overall more alive. e.g. if a heart quest sends you to kill 10 rats, you actually dont need to kill a single rat to complete the quest! you can just go about your business and do other stuff, and it counts.

     

    So yes. It is more alive than the rest of mmos that didnt want to improve their generic questing one way or another.

    It still needs a lot of improvements (more DE evolution and less recyling / restarting them), but still is far better than the old method.





  • iridescenceiridescence Member UncommonPosts: 1,552
    Originally posted by DMKano
     

    That's my whole point, you CANNOT FAIL in any MMORPG, you cannot fail in EQN either - it's a script that just restarts and you can have a do-over.

    MMORPGs only harbor success, and success without a possibility of failure is utterly meaningless.

    I'd love to play a game where player actions if careless and severe enough *collectively* could have sever consequences on the virtual world, with players losing their power in game - yes actual real cause and effect, real loss, none of this slap you on the wrist stuff.

    If we are able to build powerful and great heroes, there needs to be a possibility of equally great failure.

     

     

    I remember when they tried to do this type of thing  in Rift where you had  to get a group together to get rid of the invasions or they would just take over the whole zone. It was a cool step in the right direction but it fell victim to "entitled gamer syndrome": "But I don't care about this stuff! Why can't I just play the game *my* way? Waaaah!"

     

    I hate the way these kind of overly selfish players end up just making  MMOs less interesting for everyone else. I really wish they'd just stay in single player games since that's what they seem to want anyway.

     

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