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1 Weapon Type Per Class?!?!?!?!

seacow1gseacow1g Savannah, GAPosts: 254Member

So I read this new column about Wildstar which states that each individual class will have its own class-specific weapon:

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/632/feature/7904/Choose-Your-Weapon.html/page/1

 

What....the....hell. Ok I can understand the difficulties of creating many quality combat animations for each race+class but how in the world can this possibly be seen as a good thing? Don't insult my intelligence by trying to argue that it's good. This is supposed to be a virtual world and limiting each class to 1 weapon type (especially since each character can only be 1 class) is NOT immersive at all. I like alot of things that Wildstar is going to do but this is not one of them. This decision just reeks of shallowness to me. Yes having awesome combat makes me want to play my character more, but making my character look and play like a copy-pasted template compared to 100000 other players makes me NOT want to play him at all.

 

Where the hell is this kind of backwards thinking coming from? I heard EQnext is also doing something like this but at least 1 character can switch around their classes at will (so they can also switch weapons). FFXIV is doing the same thing too, TERA as well. WHYYYYYYY? In the case of FFXIV although I applaud them for making an overall great game the character uniqueness factor is a huge gripe for me about the game (and why I don't play it). While each individual class has alot of personality, different characters of a given class just look/feel like carbon copies to me.

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Comments

  • apocolusterapocoluster newport news, VAPosts: 1,321Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by seacow1g

    So I read this new column about Wildstar which states that each individual class will have its own class-specific weapon:

     

    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/632/feature/7904/Choose-Your-Weapon.html/page/1

     

    What....the....hell. Ok I can understand the difficulties of creating many quality combat animations for each race+class but how in the world can this possibly be seen as a good thing? Don't insult my intelligence by trying to argue that it's good. This is supposed to be a virtual world and limiting each class to 1 weapon type (especially since each character can only be 1 class) is NOT immersive at all. I like alot of things that Wildstar is going to do but this is not one of them. This decision just reeks of shallowness to me. Yes having awesome combat makes me want to play my character more, but making my character look and play like a copy-pasted template compared to 100000 other players makes me NOT want to play him at all.

     

    Where the hell is this kind of backwards thinking coming from? I heard EQnext is also doing something like this but at least 1 character can switch around their classes at will (so they can also switch weapons). FFXIV is doing the same thing too, TERA as well. WHYYYYYYY? In the case of FFXIV although I applaud them for making an overall great game the character uniqueness factor is a huge gripe for me about the game (and why I don't play it). While each individual class has alot of personality, different characters of a given class just look/feel like carbon copies to me.

    Where did you hear this was a "world".  It always seemed rooted in the "game" category. Would have thought the cartoony graphics would have tipped you off

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,966Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by apocoluster
    Originally posted by seacow1g

    So I read this new column about Wildstar which states that each individual class will have its own class-specific weapon:

     

    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/632/feature/7904/Choose-Your-Weapon.html/page/1

     

    Where did you hear this was a "world".  It always seemed rooted in the "game" category. Would have thought the cartoony graphics would have tipped you off

    Agreed, few developers are making virtual world simulations, most of these titles clearly lean more towards the "game" category and this title is no exception.

    Doesn't mean it won't be fun to play, (most games are) but role players and those who favor uniqueness of their character will not find those qualities here.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
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  • Mr.KujoMr.Kujo SwinoujsciePosts: 383Member

    How is it not immersive?

    What is wrong in giving a class to a person using specific weapon? As far as it goes, you label character based on the type of weapon and job he does and that is called a class.

    Are you saying being a swordsman with axe is immersive? :) If anything it is other way around, immersion is broken if you are stealh unit running around with big weapon that makes a lot of noise, or a half-naked tank etc. etc. It is those restrictions that make the game more believable, because otherwise people will do all kinds of stupid sh*t with their characters that will ruin your immersion.

    What is wrong in giving a name "class" to a person using specific weapon? It restricts your choice, that is true, but to say it breaks immersion.. come on.

  • Neo_ViperNeo_Viper NotyourbusinessPosts: 598Member

    Awful design, one of the worse aspects of Tera along with the graphic design and utterly boring quests.

    At least now I'm sure I won't play that crap.

    My computer is better than yours.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon

    Its just plain lazy design.

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  • Dr_ShivinskiDr_Shivinski Seattle, WAPosts: 259Member Uncommon
    Seems pretty damn lazy to me. Even the Father of modern MMO's (WoW) allowed multiple weapon types for classes. It doesn't really matter to me though I have never had any interest in Wildstar since from day one it looked like a carbon copy of WoW right down to the art style, and since I did my 7 years I'm not looking to play the same game again.

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  • marcuslmmarcuslm Louisville, KYPosts: 253Member Uncommon

    I read that WildStar column too and I felt the same way. I am really disappointed that they are going the lazy route with this. It has always been a gripe of mine with TERA and it seems like more and more new games are doing this. Combine this with the fact that most games these days have a limited set of unique models for armor and you do in fact end up with a bunch of carbon-copy characters. Boring.

    I also find it strange that games tout these detailed character creators, like being able to morph the nose exactly how you want etc, but then skimp in the weapons and armor area. You can't see most of those character creations details, like eye color, from any normal distance anyway. It makes no sense.

    If they really needed to cut corners, this was not the place to do it in my opinion. 

  • Dr_ShivinskiDr_Shivinski Seattle, WAPosts: 259Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by marcuslm

    I read that WildStar column too and I felt the same way. I am really disappointed that they are going the lazy route with this. It has always been a gripe of mine with TERA and it seems like more and more new games are doing this. Combine this with the fact that most games these days have a limited set of unique models for armor and you do in fact end up with a bunch of carbon-copy characters. Boring.

    I also find it strange that games tout these detailed character creators, like being able to morph the nose exactly how you want etc, but then skimp in the weapons and armor area. You can't see most of those character creations details, like eye color, from any normal distance anyway. It makes no sense.

    If they really needed to cut corners, this was not the place to do it in my opinion. 

    If they really need to cut corners, they should not have bothered making an MMO to begin with. Besides are people not done with this style of MMO yet? I

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  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    I don't see this as fundementally different than a game having classes in the first place.   It's just a little further out on the spectrum of making templates rigid.

  • seacow1gseacow1g Savannah, GAPosts: 254Member
    Originally posted by maplestone

    I don't see this as fundementally different than a game having classes in the first place.   It's just a little further out on the spectrum of making templates rigid.

    Oh I agree, but different players have different tolerance levels on the spectrum. I feel sorry for the guys that can't even tolerate classes at all because from a design standpoint making a deep,  varied and (most importantly) fun classless game is a very challenging task to undertake. 

     

    Personally I find this design unpalatable. Yes a person's "class" can be decided by their weapon but if you do that then you need alot of classes to make the game feel immersive. And what about different styles of using particular weapon types? I think it looks alot better in a game when different classes use the same kind of weapon differently. Maybe it's just me but I tried this kind of system in Tera and even though the combat was cool I did not grow attached to my character at all and this design had quite a bit to do with it.

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  • FoeHammerJTFoeHammerJT Broken Arrow, OKPosts: 148Member
    Originally posted by seacow1g

    Oh I agree, but different players have different tolerance levels on the spectrum. I feel sorry for the guys that can't even tolerate classes at all because from a design standpoint making a deep,  varied and (most importantly) fun classless game is a very challenging task to undertake. 

    So challenging to undertake that short of Eve, I cant think of a game to pull it off in any successful way in the last 10 years....

     

    We have to speak with dollars and log ins. If you don't like these design decisions don't even try the game. This is 2013, how is possible we aren't being given MORE CHOICES, not fewer. Every design element in a game should be about adding playing choices, NOT LIMITING THEM!

    And to the guys commenting that Swordsmen should not be able to use Axes. Never in the history of man has a warriors training been limited to one weapon. Even Cavemen used Clubs and Throwing Weapons (Rocks), plus their hands and feet.

    As the OP stated, no way to adequately justify this type of limitation.

  • ghost047ghost047 montreal, QCPosts: 603Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mr.Kujo

    Are you saying being a swordsman with axe is immersive?

    But, there's no class called swordsman in WS. Also, how many different types of sword is there, two-handed sword, one-handed sword, long sword, short sword, two swords, katana, sabre...I'm ok with the design if they use many types of sword, but if they only use one type, that will be bad. I don't need to use a club, mace, axe...with my warrior, but atleast, different types of that one weapon.

    Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Catskills, NYPosts: 1,832Member
    Yeah, no interest to see this sort of mechanism in games either....just reeks of shallowness....but maybe that's what they are going for.
  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member

    I really don't see why people are totally ok with " you can wear heavy armor but not light or cloth " but not ok with, this class can only use swords...or staffs or what ever.

    It seems like you've been trained to accept one but have always had the choice with the other. It has nothing to do with what is or isn't acceptable game design and everything to do with what's familiar.

  • seacow1gseacow1g Savannah, GAPosts: 254Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile

    I really don't see why people are totally ok with " you can wear heavy armor but not light or cloth " but not ok with, this class can only use swords...or staffs or what ever.

    It seems like you've been trained to accept one but have always had the choice with the other. It has nothing to do with what is or isn't acceptable game design and everything to do with what's familiar.

    I don't think it's merely a matter of what's familiar. Armors don't come in that many "types", or at least in not enough types that can't be included under the basic 4-5 types that we limit classes to. Whereas weapons "types" there's alot of them. 1h swords,axes, maces, and daggers, 2h swords, axes, maces, spears, scythes and staves, bows,guns, crossbows, claws, dualwielding etc etc etc. There's SOOOOOO many weapon "types" and styles (not even mentioning the subtypes within each type) that limiting your game to just 6  types is downright crap.

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  • NovusodNovusod Lakewood, NJPosts: 892Member Uncommon

    Definitely not a fan of one weapon type per class. There should really be at least 2 if not 3 or 4 weapons that give distinct class flavor.

    For example a rouge can use: Two daggers, two short swords, single sword and a dagger, long sword and free hand like a fencer.

    A Warrior could use: Sword + shield, or they could use a great two hander, or an giant Axe

    A mage could use: A staff, or a wand, or a floating orb, or a Scythe

    A monk or barbarian could use: clubs, quarter staffs, tonfas, claws, katars

    A bard could use: lute, drums, flute, harp for support or could switch to daggers or swords for melee

    A priest could use: Mace, hammer, sword, long staff, holy icon

    Then there are flavor classes that use weapons like: whips, long spears, crossbows

     

    Most game developers today seem to only have a one track mind and can only make dumb down games. However, there are a few games out there like Vindictus that offer multiple non standard weapons. These are the type of games that get my time and money.

  • ThupliThupli Spokane, WAPosts: 581Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Novusod

    Definitely not a fan of one weapon type per class. There should really be at least 2 if not 3 or 4 weapons that give distinct class flavor.

    For example a rouge can use: Two daggers, two short swords, single sword and a dagger, long sword and free hand like a fencer.

    A Warrior could use: Sword + shield, or they could use a great two hander, or an giant Axe

    A mage could use: A staff, or a wand, or a floating orb, or a Scythe

    A monk or barbarian could use: clubs, quarter staffs, tonfas, claws, katars

    A bard could use: lute, drums, flute, harp for support or could switch to daggers or swords for melee

    A priest could use: Mace, hammer, sword, long staff, holy icon

    Then there are flavor classes that use weapons like: whips, long spears, crossbows

     

    Most game developers today seem to only have a one track mind and can only make dumb down games. However, there are a few games out there like Vindictus that offer multiple non standard weapons. These are the type of games that get my time and money.

    +1

     

    i was interested in W* until I heard all of this.  This is purely shallow.  Pick your class.  Weapon locked, race locked.  It would be one thing if they had 12+ classes, but this is just bad.

  • killion81killion81 A City, MIPosts: 985Member Uncommon

    If this is all it takes for people to completely write off a game, enjoy never playing "your" game.  Making games is a LOT of work for big teams of people.  Making an MMORPG is even more work than making a single or multi-player game.  The people they hire to make these games know a whole hell of a lot more about game design than any of the armchair game designers here.  If you believe the designers are doing their best to make a great game in a reasonable amount of time at a reasonable cost, trust their decisions.  If not, don't play.  Don't whine and cry about it, but don't play it. 

     

    P.S.  If you really think these game devs are lazy, you don't know what lazy means and you don't know what game developers jobs are like.  Game developers are almost always overworked and underpaid.  If they applied their talents to the world of business, they would make FAR more money for the same amount of work.

  • pkpkpkpkpkpk amherst, MAPosts: 85Member
    This is already standard in a lot of MMOs as I'm sure has been mentioned. It is easier to tailor special effects to a single weapon, and less work to create and balance different weapon types. Item progression in most MMOs is by and large just a normalized mathematical function according to a template. This has been done since at least EQ2 and WoW, with their Common Yet Magical Items. Although item creation is one of the most exciting aspects of role-playing game design, it is now left to a computer to do.
  • djazzydjazzy louisville, COPosts: 3,578Member
    Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski
    Seems pretty damn lazy to me. Even the Father of modern MMO's (WoW) allowed multiple weapon types for classes. It doesn't really matter to me though I have never had any interest in Wildstar since from day one it looked like a carbon copy of WoW right down to the art style, and since I did my 7 years I'm not looking to play the same game again.

    although in WoW the weapon type is pretty much irrelevant to the skills and abilities, all they are is a stat stick.

  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIPosts: 2,601Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by killion81
    If this is all it takes for people to completely write off a game, enjoy never playing "your" game.  Making games is a LOT of work for big teams of people.  Making an MMORPG is even more work than making a single or multi-player game.  The people they hire to make these games know a whole hell of a lot more about game design than any of the armchair game designers here.  If you believe the designers are doing their best to make a great game in a reasonable amount of time at a reasonable cost, trust their decisions.  If not, don't play.  Don't whine and cry about it, but don't play it.  P.S.  If you really think these game devs are lazy, you don't know what lazy means and you don't know what game developers jobs are like.  Game developers are almost always overworked and underpaid.  If they applied their talents to the world of business, they would make FAR more money for the same amount of work.
    Talking to a brick wall man.


    I highly doubt anyone saying this is "lazy" has any idea whatsoever about video game development and the difficulties involved.


    In the article the OP is referencing it was explained why they chose this route but obviously the OP didnt read that part and only saw "1 weapon per class" and flew into a nerd rage fit.

  • seacow1gseacow1g Savannah, GAPosts: 254Member
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

     


    Originally posted by killion81
    If this is all it takes for people to completely write off a game, enjoy never playing "your" game.  Making games is a LOT of work for big teams of people.  Making an MMORPG is even more work than making a single or multi-player game.  The people they hire to make these games know a whole hell of a lot more about game design than any of the armchair game designers here.  If you believe the designers are doing their best to make a great game in a reasonable amount of time at a reasonable cost, trust their decisions.  If not, don't play.  Don't whine and cry about it, but don't play it. 

     

     

    P.S.  If you really think these game devs are lazy, you don't know what lazy means and you don't know what game developers jobs are like.  Game developers are almost always overworked and underpaid.  If they applied their talents to the world of business, they would make FAR more money for the same amount of work.


    Talking to a brick wall man.

     


    I highly doubt anyone saying this is "lazy" has any idea whatsoever about video game development and the difficulties involved.


    In the article the OP is referencing it was explained why they chose this route but obviously the OP didnt read that part and only saw "1 weapon per class" and flew into a nerd rage fit.

    I did read the reasons, I just don't accept them. The design reeks of shallowness to me, plain and simple. I'm not making this an argument about laziness or development times or w/e, This is a core, likely unchangeable design decision that they have made and I don't like it. I know how much work goes into videogame design, but that doesn't stop SOME companies from making good products (maybe not so much in the MMORPG genre anymore). I've played a game with only 6 weapon types (locked to each class) and even though the combat was awesome it ruined my immersion and sense of attachment to MY character. It may seem like I'm nitpicking but when the devs are making design decisions like this that are likely gonna be permanent it ruins my hopes for that game. Why? Because it shows me the intent they have with how their game FEELS. If they make the gameworld shallow in places like this, they are likely to do it in other places as well.

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  • GwapoJoshGwapoJosh Auburn, INPosts: 989Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski
    Seems pretty damn lazy to me. Even the Father of modern MMO's (WoW) allowed multiple weapon types for classes. It doesn't really matter to me though I have never had any interest in Wildstar since from day one it looked like a carbon copy of WoW right down to the art style, and since I did my 7 years I'm not looking to play the same game again.

    WoW is the father of MMOs? LOL

    "You are all going to poop yourselves." BillMurphy
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  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIPosts: 2,601Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by seacow1g
    Originally posted by Xiaoki   Originally posted by killion81 If this is all it takes for people to completely write off a game, enjoy never playing "your" game.  Making games is a LOT of work for big teams of people.  Making an MMORPG is even more work than making a single or multi-player game.  The people they hire to make these games know a whole hell of a lot more about game design than any of the armchair game designers here.  If you believe the designers are doing their best to make a great game in a reasonable amount of time at a reasonable cost, trust their decisions.  If not, don't play.  Don't whine and cry about it, but don't play it.      P.S.  If you really think these game devs are lazy, you don't know what lazy means and you don't know what game developers jobs are like.  Game developers are almost always overworked and underpaid.  If they applied their talents to the world of business, they would make FAR more money for the same amount of work.
    Talking to a brick wall man.   I highly doubt anyone saying this is "lazy" has any idea whatsoever about video game development and the difficulties involved. In the article the OP is referencing it was explained why they chose this route but obviously the OP didnt read that part and only saw "1 weapon per class" and flew into a nerd rage fit.
    I did read the reasons, I just don't accept them. The design reeks of shallowness to me, plain and simple. I'm not making this an argument about laziness or development times or w/e, This is a core, likely unchangeable design decision that they have made and I don't like it. I know how much work goes into videogame design, but that doesn't stop SOME companies from making good products (maybe not so much in the MMORPG genre anymore). I've played a game with only 6 weapon types (locked to each class) and even though the combat was awesome it ruined my immersion and sense of attachment to MY character. It may seem like I'm nitpicking but when the devs are making design decisions like this that are likely gonna be permanent it ruins my hopes for that game. Why? Because it shows me the intent they have with how their game FEELS. If they make the gameworld shallow in places like this, they are likely to do it in other places as well.

    So, basically your whole argument is that 1 weapon per class is immersion breaking and you back it up with a lame "slippery slope" scenario.

    "Well, if they're lazy with the weapons then they will be lazy elsewhere as well."
    Which will further break your immersion into YOUR character.

    So, even though adding high quality animation for additional weapons per class would be very expensive and very time consuming you just dont care. Because, after all, you dont want your immersion broken when you are playing YOUR character.


    So, its not really an issue of 1 weapon per class its entirely what YOU want. Carbine's real crime was not designing this $100 million game exactly to YOUR tastes.


  • Inf666Inf666 DarmstadtPosts: 508Member

    I do not mind only using one weapon if it is well designed and I still have options for specialization.

    Honestly people should not put so much meaning into game descriptions pre-launch. It is irrelevant if the game has 234 races, 234 weapons and 42342 skills but is absolutly boring to play. The number of choices you have are irrelevant if the game is crap.

    On the other hand everyone will overlook a low amount of choices if the game is very entertaining.

    Wait for the game to release, check out the 'lets play' videos or give the game a try and THEN decide.

    ---
    Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

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