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Why aren't crafted items better?

SlukjanSlukjan Burlington, VTPosts: 254Member Uncommon
I never understood this. It seems a no brainer to make crafted items the best items available.  Then people can get really excited about crafting.  But most MMOs seem to have the best gear dropped from raid bosses...which pretty much makes most crafted gear obsolete.  At the very least devs should make crafted gear at least equal to the best raid drops, if not better.  I'm not sure why this idea hasn't caught on yet.
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Comments

  • HomituHomitu Hometown, HIPosts: 2,030Member

    You have to measure what you think the playerbase really wants.  In a game like GW2, which isn't hugely crafting oriented to begin with, they recently made the absolute best weapons only obtainable through the weapon crafting professions - and there was actually quite a lot of community backlash agasint it.  (Although accurately measuring that can be nearly impossible, as we've seen over and over again that as little as 2% of any given game's community posts on any forums anywhere.)  Plain and simple though, there are a lot of players who don't want to craft, and you're liable to make them angry if they feel like they're forced to craft.  

    I think you're just falling into the trap where you think your perspective equals that of the majority, when, in fact, the majority may actually only want crafting to be a small fun thing to do on the side.  

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon

    Short answer: because it would trivialize raiding.


    Little bit longer answer: Making crafted items the absolute best in the game is not a fix to the problem. In order for crafting to thrive it needs diversity. At least two types of consumables (food, drink, potions), some sort of pvp relevance, the ability to craft furnishings and decorations, and also augment slots in top raid gear that only crafters can outfit.

    These are all steps to make crafting needed and diverse without devaluing raid-centric rewards.

  • azarhalazarhal Somewhere, BCPosts: 761Member Uncommon

    I know plenty of games that allow crafters to make the "best gear", the problem is usually that it's not worth it to do so. There are multiple factors at work:

    1. Some games want players to focus on raids, so that's where the carrot is placed.
    2. Economic reasons caused by items not being breakable. This make higher level crafting less important because players change gear left often (and also the existence of bound on character items because they will never disappear from the economy otherwise).
    3. How easy it is to find/get max level gear vs high level mat is a big factor.
    4. It's an "anti-twinking" mechanic (devs want people to consume the content in a certain order, not bypass it by getting good gear out of the AH)
     
     
     

     

     

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Crafting is boring. Rewards don't change that.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • GrixxittGrixxitt New Orleans, LAPosts: 543Member

    But crafted items ARE better.

    You might be playing the wrong game though o.O

    The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

    -The MMO Forum Community

  • syntax42syntax42 Columbus, OHPosts: 1,305Member Uncommon

    Crafting is too much work.  Or at least, that seems to be the attitude of many people who don't like it.  Personally, I think crafting systems in games have become a grind for arbitrary points which determine how good of gear you can make.  I would like to see a game come out which allows people to craft without "leveling up" a crafting skill.  The current system of working with copper until you can work with iron doesn't even make sense from a roleplaying perspective.

     

    I would like to see more games like DAOC.  Their crafted items were worth the effort and generally you mixed them with non-crafted items.  You couldn't just use dropped items and expect to be powerful, just like you couldn't use just crafted items and be as powerful as ToA-geared + crafted players.  Stat caps, bonuses unobtainable on crafted items, and their crafting system math made this possible.

  • VengerVenger York, PAPosts: 1,318Member

    Crafting is not flashy like tossing fireballs so most do not really care for crafting.  Those of us that want a crafting system that is more then just a feature list add on are in the minority.

    I am interested to see what EQN does but it seams to be very world crafting with EQN Landmark instead of gear crafting.  

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Crafting is boring. Rewards don't change that.

    Basically this.

    I don't mind a bit of crafting like in marvel heroes that upgrade the items, or the new mystic in D3 which reroll a stat, but that is just a distraction to the main gameplay.

    Combat is much more interesting to me than crafting.

     

  • NinjaGazNinjaGaz MacclesfieldPosts: 53Member Common

    I think one way forward would be to dramatically reduce the drops during questing. Why buy a sword made from Legolas when a boar will drop a better one.

    One simple move would create a huge demand for crafted items and make the whole crafting experience not a way to dump cash.

    At the highest level, crafting with socketed items or the like would be good. It requires a master craftsmen, but also a visit into a raid.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member

    In a themepark game crafting " the best loot" would defeat the point of it being a themepark in the first place. Why follow a yellow brick road if the loot you really want isn't at the end ?

    The more sandbox your game is, the more important crafting should be. If you're finding the games you're playing have crafting systems that are lacking, look for games that have more focus on player economies.

  • PopplePopple Utica, NYPosts: 167Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Crafting is boring. Rewards don't change that.

    Crafting is fun..Take away the easy way out of getting gears in raids..Replace it with crafting material that you need to finish that gear..Raiding for gear is to easy and it suxs!!!image

    I retired retroactively..Haha

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Popple
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Crafting is boring. Rewards don't change that.

    Crafting is fun..Take away the easy way out of getting gears in raids..Replace it with crafting material that you need to finish that gear..Raiding for gear is to easy and it suxs!!!image

    Fun is subjective.

    It is more fun to me to kill a mob, and receive a loot, then receive some crafting mat, and have to play a mini-game before i get my item.

     

  • XssivXssiv Haskell, NJPosts: 359Member

    If players could buy best in slot items, we'd see even more gold farmers / sellers and people crying about pay to win. 

     

    Making players earn BIS gear through content is really the only way to keep things in check at this point.  

  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member

    i have never thought that crafted gear should be better than gear obtained through raiding.

     

    however, i do not see why it should not be on par with it. all the raiders scream when you suggest that their rewards be taken away by crafting. but the moment you suggest that perhaps the opposite is true, they go silent.

     

    i believe raiders should be amply rewarded for the work they put into raiding. however, so should pvp'rs and crafters.

     

     

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDPosts: 2,581Member Uncommon
    Should change end crafting to refining items found in the game.  Upgrading, changing stats, changing look...etc.  That way one still have to raid or whatever to get the basic item and crafter still feel important.
  • DoomedfoxDoomedfox Elmhurts, NYPosts: 685Member Common

    I think it would be best to have basic gear drop in Raids which you can upgrade to the best gear but you will need some items which are crafted only and a high lvl crafter to put it together for you.

    That way the fans of raiding would get what they want and the  crafters would not have lvled there craft for nothing.

    It could also be that depending on the items you use to finish the gear would change it (for example make a armor more evasive or add STR/VITY etc...) having a color option and maybe some small tweeks in the looks department would be good too.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,666Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Foomerang

    Short answer: because it would trivialize raiding.

    Exactly. Crafted items are better than drops in MMOs where gear isn't the carrot-on-a-stick to get you to repeat a limited content set.

    Examples: UO, EVE, Asheron's Call

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member

    see this is the assumption that bothers me. raiders say, for the most part, that they don't like to craft and that crafters assume too much when suggesting that they should craft.

     

    and i agree with that. not everyone likes harvesting or crafting, let alone having to do both.

     

    but then they turn right back around and state that crafters should obviously raid for mats or gear to improve upon, assuming that crafters clearly must enjoy raiding.

     

    both sides are having trouble hearing each other i think.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDPosts: 2,581Member Uncommon
    Why not allow crafter and raiders to sell mats and upgrades to other players?  Then both can do what they like.
  • alkarionlogalkarionlog SPosts: 1,125Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Homitu

    You have to measure what you think the playerbase really wants.  In a game like GW2, which isn't hugely crafting oriented to begin with, they recently made the absolute best weapons only obtainable through the weapon crafting professions - and there was actually quite a lot of community backlash agasint it.  (Although accurately measuring that can be nearly impossible, as we've seen over and over again that as little as 2% of any given game's community posts on any forums anywhere.)  Plain and simple though, there are a lot of players who don't want to craft, and you're liable to make them angry if they feel like they're forced to craft.  

    I think you're just falling into the trap where you think your perspective equals that of the majority, when, in fact, the majority may actually only want crafting to be a small fun thing to do on the side.  

    wrong in gw2 the best weapons right now ascended weapons, can be obtained by drops crafts and even so if you had legendary that old legendary of yours are now the same power as a ascended, and tell me what si teh new on ahving people complaining? people will always complain about something and I tell you people was with a crafted ascended the next day and I don't doubt they did get some hours after the patch was in, so next time before you say something get your facts right....

     

     

    for the OP.

    the main reason for drops being better then crafted is they need to keep that carrot out there, if far harder you get lucky on a 2% drop rate to get that weapon or armor then is to get mats to carft your weapon, even so they normally would try to push for a craft material  who drops on one of this raid bosses and its bound on acquire to prevent then to sell it.

    they want this design around so people can spend months paying for the game because we know even devs know tehy worlds are shallow and without the gear grind no one would play for more then 2 months

    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
    image

  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member
    Originally posted by Horusra
    Why not allow crafter and raiders to sell mats and upgrades to other players?  Then both can do what they like.

    as long as a balance between the two are kept balanced that might work.

     

    my main issue is with any group having the largest or best rewards in a game that is supposed to cater to several crowds.

     

    (for instance a purely pvp game would not need to worry about these things as they are only appealing to one sort of playstyle.)

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,995Member Uncommon
    Crafting can be designed so it compliments dropped gear making both activities useful and fun. DAOC managed to do it, others have as well I'm sure.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • syntax42syntax42 Columbus, OHPosts: 1,305Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by NinjaGaz

    I think one way forward would be to dramatically reduce the drops during questing. Why buy a sword made from Legolas when a boar will drop a better one.

    One simple move would create a huge demand for crafted items and make the whole crafting experience not a way to dump cash.

    At the highest level, crafting with socketed items or the like would be good. It requires a master craftsmen, but also a visit into a raid.

    The first scenario is something I don't like about RPGs.  A board has no use for a shield, so why does it drop one?  Also, humanoids use armor and weapons, yet most games don't let you take stuff from the enemy you just killed.  At the very least, we should be able to take broken armor and melt it down for crafting again.

     

    I think item wear is a necessary component of economy-based MMOs.  Without it, the demand for new crafted items goes away.  SWG and DAOC showed how to make a crafting system become the focus of the economy, and it worked well.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon

    Because most people want to adventure, and part of adventure is the reward, the loot.  Having crafted be better, trivializes what most want, the adventure.

    Having the loot be a material that can be crafted again trivializes the adventurer by forcing them to wait to adventure again, but forcing them to be dependent on someone else to enjoy the game again. 

    For the adventurer getting a peice of material, is a let down.  Having to contact someone to make it, then dicker about the price, then wait till they can actually make it, then arranging a time to deliver and pay is a pita. 

    I've played games where there was no loot, just dropped materials, they added it because adventuring was boring, which means there was no one to buy the crafters wares.   I say don't make crafted loot be better.  Make crafting items either be as good, or have a way to make either crafted, or the dropped loot better through crafting.

    ie. dropped sword from godly dragon is really good, but you can use a dragon scale to imbue the sword with whatever and the crafter is used for that.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by syntax42
     

    The first scenario is something I don't like about RPGs.  A board has no use for a shield, so why does it drop one?  Also, humanoids use armor and weapons, yet most games don't let you take stuff from the enemy you just killed.  At the very least, we should be able to take broken armor and melt it down for crafting again.

     

    magic?

    If a mage can teleport, and create fire from nothing, why can't a magical bird drop shields and stuff?

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