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Is MMORPG longevity a myth?

13

Comments

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,757Member Uncommon
    Another poll to show how the content locusts are right about what MMOs should be like, another fail on their part.
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Scot
    Another poll to show how the content locusts are right about what MMOs should be like, another fail on their part.

    What, if anything, does my post have to do with content locusts? It's about perception. Do MMORPGs have a high retention rate than other types of games, and do they have a longer average play time than other types of games, or is this just a perception on the part of the people who want things to be that way?

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Mors.MagneMors.Magne LondonPosts: 1,420Member

    It depends how you define 'longevity'.

     

    After 8 years of playing MMORPGs, I'd say they are all looking pretty stale and boring now.

     

    I'm waiting for 3D gaming (Oculus Rift etc).

  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,938Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Burntvet

    "Modern MMORPGs" have no longevity, most crash after a few months.

    That was not the case with a good number of the "original" MMORPGs, which actually increased player populations after launch (a radical concept, I know...).

    Careful there; many (all?) of the originals peaked and went into declines before year five.

    In fact, you can count the number of games that increased population steadily for more than five years on just two fingers, can't you? Neither of those two games being considered 'classic era'--not good for the point you're trying to make here.

    It most certainly is: A game holding or increasing its population to year 5 is unheard of these days.

    Forget 5 years, how about 2 years? 1 Year?

    TOR, The Secret World, Rift, even GW2 had big numbers at the beginning and then crashed. None of those had any increase after launch, at all...

    UO, SWG, EvE, DAOC, and others had their numbers go up after launch, as word of mouth got more people to play.

    All world of mouth does these days is tell people how shallow the game is, how short a time it takes to "beat" an MMORPG, and how crappy the cash shop is.

     

    And those are two trends pretty much all the numbers show to be what has really happened.

     

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Burntvet
    All world of mouth does these days is tell people how shallow the game is, how short a time it takes to "beat" an MMORPG, and how crappy the cash shop is.

    So do WoW and EVE prove what a shallow, crappy game EQ was, by the same standard?

    (They both maintained population growth, for considerably longer time frames)

    How 'bout Lineage?

    WoW showed positive growth for longer than SWG even existed, right? So it's 'deeper'?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,938Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Burntvet
    All world of mouth does these days is tell people how shallow the game is, how short a time it takes to "beat" an MMORPG, and how crappy the cash shop is.

    So do WoW and EVE prove what a shallow, crappy game EQ was, by the same standard?

    (They both maintained population growth, for considerably longer time frames)

    How 'bout Lineage?

    They certainly show how SOE failed to innovate with EQ after the first few years, and put most of their new ideas into EQ2, so by comparison, they probably did.

    EvE has expanded all these years, because they continued to improve their game, and listen to fan feedback AND acted on it. That is something SOE is especially known for not doing.

    (And lets leave WoW out of this as the exception to every single MMORPG rule, the success of WoW, on many levels will never be repeated.)

     

    Edit: Never played lineage, but most of its players are in Asia, so can not speak as well to that market. Plus it did have a sequel.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Burntvet

    (And lets leave WoW out of this as the exception to every single MMORPG rule, the success of WoW, on many levels will never be repeated.)

    Oh, so your general rule isn't a rule at all, since we have to allow for exceptions.

    Ok, that's what we thought.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,938Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Burntvet

    (And lets leave WoW out of this as the exception to every single MMORPG rule, the success of WoW, on many levels will never be repeated.)

    Oh, so your general rule isn't a rule at all, since we have to allow for exceptions.

    Ok, that's what we thought.

    I could name 10 things that WoW has been able to do, that no other MMO before or since has done, so there are a whole lot of things you can say about every single MMORPG except WoW.

    And since the WoW phenomenon is almost certainly not to be repeated, ever, it is its own special case, now isn't it?

     

    And who cares? This is about older vs modern (aka launched after WoW) so WoW has nothing to do about it regardless.

    Or did you not read that part?

     

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Burntvet
    And since the WoW phenomenon is almost certainly not to be repeated, ever, it is its own special case, now isn't it?

    And the same could be said for EVE, couldn't it?

    You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're going to discount WoW for being 'too unique', you're going to have to discount...every....other title, too.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by Burntvet

    Never played lineage, but most of its players are in Asia, so can not speak as well to that market. Plus it did have a sequel.

    Lineage had a sequel but the sequel never did as well as the original

     

    Lineage is still a sub game and the strongest breadwinner for Ncsoft, 15 years later

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/14/ncsoft-sales-are-up-income-is-down/

  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,938Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Burntvet
    And since the WoW phenomenon is almost certainly not to be repeated, ever, it is its own special case, now isn't it?

    And the same could be said for EVE, couldn't it?

    You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're going to discount WoW for being 'too unique', you're going to have to discount...every....other title, too.

    Ummm... nope.

    With EvE, you had a small developer build a small product in a market space with no competition (space PvP sandbox with strong crafting economics) slowly build up their game over time, by gradually improving the game, reducing bugs, and build in more of the things existing players wanted.  That could, should, and mostly likely will happen again, if the moron MMO executives running the companies stop chasing "the next WoW".

    WoW became something that transcended the traditional MMORPG market and became a social phenomenon, and brought in millions of non-gamers, because of not only what it was, but also the time it happened. In so doing, it became 20x as big as any MMORPG that came before it, and that is something that would be virtually impossible to repeat.

     

    So, no... you are comparing apples to hand grenades and asking why one does not taste good.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Burntvet
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Burntvet
    And since the WoW phenomenon is almost certainly not to be repeated, ever, it is its own special case, now isn't it?

    And the same could be said for EVE, couldn't it?

    You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're going to discount WoW for being 'too unique', you're going to have to discount...every....other title, too.

    Ummm... nope.

    With EvE, you had a small developer build a small product in a market space with no competition (space PvP sandbox with strong crafting economics) slowly build up their game over time, by gradually improving the game, reducing bugs, and build in more of the things existing players wanted.  That could, should, and mostly likely will happen again, if the moron MMO executives running the companies stop chasing "the next WoW".

    WoW became something that transcended the traditional MMORPG market and became a social phenomenon, and brought in millions of non-gamers, because of not only what it was, but also the time it happened. In so doing, it became 20x as big as any MMORPG that came before it, and that is something that would be virtually impossible to repeat.

     

    So, no... you are comparing apples to hand grenades and asking why one does not taste good.

    They're both mmorpg titles, so your rule (if it's a rule at all) needs to apply to both of these, and every other.

    Since we've been pointing out a number of exceptions, and you're backpedaling quite fiercely, perhaps it was too generalized and too flawed?

    ,

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • JaedorJaedor Denver, COPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Ender4
    Rift? really? That is one of the 5 or so worst MMORPG to be released in the past 5 years. How on earth did that one keep your attention.


    Dimensions!

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Boca Raton, FLPosts: 867Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Burntvet
     small product in a market space with no competition (space PvP sandbox with strong crafting economics)

    I discovered Vendetta Online after noticing an advertisement for Eve in a PC gaming magazine in the basement of my student research library, then running a search for space games in Altavista or Webcrawler or something and stumbling on a fan site by one "Roguelazer"... been a part of that community since June 2003, continuously subscribed since November 2004.  True story.

    "To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
    Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
    Check it out on Steam

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,757Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Scot
    Another poll to show how the content locusts are right about what MMOs should be like, another fail on their part.


    What, if anything, does my post have to do with content locusts? It's about perception. Do MMORPGs have a high retention rate than other types of games, and do they have a longer average play time than other types of games, or is this just a perception on the part of the people who want things to be that way?

    If that was not your intention sorry, but we do get polls like that on a regular basis. Yes they do have a higher retention etc, but not anywhere near as long as they had. Still they beat solo games hands down in that regard, I would say though that the multiplayer aspect of many solo games can hold people for a long time as well.

    Perhaps in a perfect world we could have a game which was both a solo game and had a MMO as multiplayer attached. You can but dream.

     

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    [mod edit]

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon

    I voted no.

    But with the current style off MMO's yes its a myth. They will have to become more then just a game for them to hold people for a long time. wich means they need to revert back to what they where instead of what they have become now.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Ender4

    I played MUDs before MMORPG so maybe that makes me the oddball.

    You're not the oddball.  Back in the day, I played a couple of social MU*s for many years, one I played for 16 years straight, and I mean straight, no significant  breaks of more than a couple of days between logging on.  I'm all for longevity but it has to be earned.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by maplestone
    If we had a company handed over a chart of how long accounts remained open, would we need any more information other than the raw retention rates to answer this question?

    Yes, just because an account is open doesn't mean the person is  still playing.  What about people with lifetime accounts?  What if they haven't played in years?  There are people who still pay for accounts even though they never play.  We only need to track accounts that are actively played, say, that have been logged into in the past week.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by maplestone
    If we had a company handed over a chart of how long accounts remained open, would we need any more information other than the raw retention rates to answer this question?

    Yes, just because an account is open doesn't mean the person is  still playing.  What about people with lifetime accounts?  What if they haven't played in years?  There are people who still pay for accounts even though they never play.  We only need to track accounts that are actively played, say, that have been logged into in the past week.

    Oh no, here comes the XFire threads again :cower:

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • ZapzapZapzap Someplace, WYPosts: 224Member Uncommon

    I cannot recall the last time I have played a MMO where I have not played it for years. 

    Rift Alpha August 2009-2013

    Vanguard Beta 2006- 2009

    Wow 2004-2006

    Daoc 2001-2004

    EQ1 1999-2001

    With lots of other MMOs thrown in as side games or 2nd games. 

     

    But I really do not consider that one has actually played a MMO until they have at least 100 days played.  In Rift for example I doubt I know anyone with less than 100 days played.  Most well over 200 days played.

     

    If your playing traditional AAA MMOs there is generally lots of content.  The problem is the modern player.  The modern player has not attention span, wants everything handed to them and spends more time on MMO forums than actually playing MMOs.  They are not MMO players they are just box sale consumers.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by maplestone
    If we had a company handed over a chart of how long accounts remained open, would we need any more information other than the raw retention rates to answer this question?

    Yes, just because an account is open doesn't mean the person is  still playing.  What about people with lifetime accounts?  What if they haven't played in years?  There are people who still pay for accounts even though they never play.  We only need to track accounts that are actively played, say, that have been logged into in the past week.

    Oh no, here comes the XFire threads again :cower:

    I certainly don't care, I'm just saying that if we want an accurate view of what's actually going on, it requires more information than open accounts.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by Scot Another poll to show how the content locusts are right about what MMOs should be like, another fail on their part.
    What, if anything, does my post have to do with content locusts? It's about perception. Do MMORPGs have a high retention rate than other types of games, and do they have a longer average play time than other types of games, or is this just a perception on the part of the people who want things to be that way?
    If that was not your intention sorry, but we do get polls like that on a regular basis. Yes they do have a higher retention etc, but not anywhere near as long as they had. Still they beat solo games hands down in that regard, I would say though that the multiplayer aspect of many solo games can hold people for a long time as well.

    Perhaps in a perfect world we could have a game which was both a solo game and had a MMO as multiplayer attached. You can but dream.

     




    That really wasn't my intention. Other people are more interested in those types of things, and much better at discussing those topics. :-) I'm just thinking about perception versus reality.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    I have not noticed that I play MMORPGs any longer than anything else.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Scot
     

    If that was not your intention sorry, but we do get polls like that on a regular basis. Yes they do have a higher retention etc, but not anywhere near as long as they had. Still they beat solo games hands down in that regard, I would say though that the multiplayer aspect of many solo games can hold people for a long time as well.

    Diablo 2 probably has a much better record of holding players than 99% of MMOs. So is CoD, and may be even battlefield 3.

     

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