If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.
It could flop, but you dont know that. It could flop for any number of reasons, or not. It could be a lot more popular with less hardcore features too. You dont know that, neither do I. One thing I do know, currently there's not one "hardcore" mmorpg that is popular.
EVE is the closest thing to a "hardcore" mmorpg, but it has vast PvE friendly areas where you are relatively in very safe place.
How many AAA companies have made a "hardcore" mmorpg? Economical and financial backup is essential if you want the high numbers of subscribers.
AAA companies will take pve>pvp any day, because pvp doesn't make money (as much money, that is). i'd be willing to bet that for every 1 "pvp player", there are dozens of others that would rather adventure in a pve world.
that said, full loot pvp just means "i get to piss all over a newbs play time because im bored" because really, how many people are going to 1v1 a person of equal skill with all of their gear on the line. i've played my fair share of pvp-centric games, and it always ends up the same.
the only significant difference between a pvp and a pve-centric game, is that in a pve game, you kill monsters. in pvp, you kill your player base. now, which one is more inclined to leave first.
Originally posted by InsaneDalek Yes, because as everyone knows when UO added Trammel it was such a huge fai- OH WAIT.
It was fail. Trammel pretty much killed UO. This is common knowledge. Worst move in gaming history.
The game is still profiting with a subscription and after Trammel was added.
Heck, I've never lost my subscription to UO. I still play it after all these years. Trammel didn't kill anything. Once there was Trammel, you could flip to Felucca side and see how empty it was, there were only a handful, and still are only a handful of people on Felucca side. Trammel was always bustling with people. There's no where near the people playing UO as there once was, it's an old game, but Trammel did not kill UO, you're wrong there.
On subject though. Times have changed as well as Mmo's. People Do Not want to lose their hard earned gold/items in a game. That's why you don't see games like Darkfall being very successful. It's a niche audience that will play those games these days.
Do I miss the old Fel days UO had, yes I do, but even when I played old UO, I hardly ever looted anyone stuff. I was happy just defeating them. If I looted, I looted my stuff if that person had beaten me, then got my stuff back and left theirs. It was never about looting other people's stuff for me.
Originally posted by InsaneDalek Yes, because as everyone knows when UO added Trammel it was such a huge fai- OH WAIT.
It was fail. Trammel pretty much killed UO. This is common knowledge. Worst move in gaming history.
The game is still profiting with a subscription and after Trammel was added.
Heck, I've never lost my subscription to UO. I still play it after all these years. Trammel didn't kill anything. Once there was Trammel, you could flip to Felucca side and see how empty it was, there were only a handful, and still are only a handful of people on Felucca side. Trammel was always bustling with people. There's no where near the people playing UO as there once was, it's an old game, but Trammel did not kill UO, you're wrong there.
Implementing Trammel boosted subs for about a year. After that the game entered a 6 - 7 year downward spiral that was only temporarily halted after they released AOS, which they probably did because they were bleeding subs after Trammel.
Implemented Trammel boosted subs for about a year. After that the game entered a 6 - 7 year downward spiral that was only temporarily halted after they released AOS, which they probably did because they were bleeding subs after Trammel.
That always happens when a game starts to age, newer Mmo's come out, take subscribers, people move on to the next best thing. Just the way it is.
Implemented Trammel boosted subs for about a year. After that the game entered a 6 - 7 year downward spiral that was only temporarily halted after they released AOS, which they probably did because they were bleeding subs after Trammel.
That always happens when a game starts to age, newer Mmo's come out, take subscribers, people move on to the next best thing. Just the way it is.
No... that's how modern MMOs work because modern MMOs are designed around catering to newer players and giving in to every whim imaginable. That's why Trammel failed and that's why modern themepark MMOs fail. EVE has been steadily growing for years.
The only thing that could really attract the hardcore crowd in this game is some good old, realistic PVP.
If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.
They basically need to make a better Darkfall.
Your way or the highway right? Why aren't all you hardcore players playing Eve? I get a kick out of these kind of post. Game companies want to make money. Your type of game fails at that. But you do have Eve. Although Eve been around for more than 10 years and has never broke 500k subs. Be thankful that CCP is a small company and its one game is still around. I do wish someone would have the guts to make the game you guys want. Then we would see less post like this or maybe not. You guys seem to get bored of the game after 2 or 3 months and start posting again.
There have been games that the "hardcore pvp" crowd claims to want. They crash and burn almost instantly. Also, there have been pvp servers in games that always turn into ghost towns. Hell, even DAoC's pvp servers turned into a laughingstock of idiots camping trainers to kill newly rolled level 20s. Yup, that's pretty damn hardcore.
Its very hard to take these guys seriously. To me it just seems like they want to rape newly rolled, or lesser geared toons. There are a lot of games out there with competitive pvp. There aren't too many that let you roam around knocking off lowbies. When I see this kind of thread all I see is "Please turn this game into a mindless gankfest."
The only thing that could really attract the hardcore crowd in this game is some good old, realistic PVP.
If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.
They basically need to make a better Darkfall.
Your way or the highway right? Why aren't all you hardcore players playing Eve? I get a kick out of these kind of post. Game companies want to make money. Your type of game fails at that. But you do have Eve. Although Eve been around for more than 10 years and has never broke 500k subs. Be thankful that CCP is a small company and its one game is still around. I do wish someone would have the guts to make the game you guys want. Then we would see less post like this or maybe not. You guys seem to get bored of the game after 2 or 3 months and start posting again.
There have been games that the "hardcore pvp" crowd claims to want. They crash and burn almost instantly. Also, there have been pvp servers in games that always turn into ghost towns. Hell, even DAoC's pvp servers turned into a laughingstock of idiots camping trainers to kill newly rolled level 20s. Yup, that's pretty damn hardcore.
Its very hard to take these guys seriously. To me it just seems like they want to rape newly rolled, or lesser geared toons. There are a lot of games out there with competitive pvp. There aren't too many that let you roam around knocking off lowbies. When I see this kind of thread all I see is "Please turn this game into a mindless gankfest."
It's hard for you to take us seriously because you don't know what you're talking about. "pvp servers" are a joke. If you can easily turn on/off pvp, then the game wasn't made with pvp in mind. It's tacked on. That's not what "we" want.
Also, please stop generalizing about people who want ow pvp saying we want to "rape new players." There are a lot of us who want that kind of game because it makes it feel more meaningful. I'm one of the most adamant ow pvp advocates and I never pk innocent players.
Implemented Trammel boosted subs for about a year. After that the game entered a 6 - 7 year downward spiral that was only temporarily halted after they released AOS, which they probably did because they were bleeding subs after Trammel.
That always happens when a game starts to age, newer Mmo's come out, take subscribers, people move on to the next best thing. Just the way it is.
No way, making UO into a WoW clone was what really removed players from the game. Just about all that played felucca ended their subscriptions.
So you see, it was actually making UO a themepark game that destroyed it, not full loot or stealing.
Originally posted by HolophonistImplemented Trammel boosted subs for about a year. After that the game entered a 6 - 7 year downward spiral that was only temporarily halted after they released AOS, which they probably did because they were bleeding subs after Trammel.
That always happens when a game starts to age, newer Mmo's come out, take subscribers, people move on to the next best thing. Just the way it is.
May 2000 Trammel releases, UO has just under 150k players. Early 2003, UO has just over 200k players. Mid 2003, UO peaks at 250k players, this is just after the release of AoS. 2003 to Present - UO subscribers decline, private servers are created, etc. This can be attributed to many things, including people just not finding anything new in the game, but SWG is probably the main culprit since it offered an alternative to UO.
Trammel boosted subs steadily for almost three years. AoS boosted subs for a very short period of time, but it wasn't enough. UO could not compete in a market where games had both full 3D graphics, well known IPs and accommodated players who weren't interested in player killing, looting or thievery. Not to mention UO was just getting old.
If the style of PvP is a factor in a game's success, then accommodating players who are interested in PvE and instanced PvP is much more of sales draw over world PvP meaning SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery. If the style of PvP is less of a factor than the game's developer or IP, then SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery; they need a good developer and a decent IP.
The only thing that could really attract the hardcore crowd in this game is some good old, realistic PVP.
If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.
They basically need to make a better Darkfall.
Your way or the highway right? Why aren't all you hardcore players playing Eve? I get a kick out of these kind of post. Game companies want to make money. Your type of game fails at that. But you do have Eve. Although Eve been around for more than 10 years and has never broke 500k subs. Be thankful that CCP is a small company and its one game is still around. I do wish someone would have the guts to make the game you guys want. Then we would see less post like this or maybe not. You guys seem to get bored of the game after 2 or 3 months and start posting again.
There have been games that the "hardcore pvp" crowd claims to want. They crash and burn almost instantly. Also, there have been pvp servers in games that always turn into ghost towns. Hell, even DAoC's pvp servers turned into a laughingstock of idiots camping trainers to kill newly rolled level 20s. Yup, that's pretty damn hardcore.
Its very hard to take these guys seriously. To me it just seems like they want to rape newly rolled, or lesser geared toons. There are a lot of games out there with competitive pvp. There aren't too many that let you roam around knocking off lowbies. When I see this kind of thread all I see is "Please turn this game into a mindless gankfest."
UO PvP was never about ganking new players, PK:ing was, but that is something else. Unexperienced players dont see the difference btw PK:s and PvP players.
PvP is fighting about equally developed characters and full loot is the reward for being the better man.
Skills mattered in UO and were still waiting for a game as skill demanding as UO was. SotA with it card magic system will definetly not be a competitor to that crown.
Originally posted by HolophonistImplemented Trammel boosted subs for about a year. After that the game entered a 6 - 7 year downward spiral that was only temporarily halted after they released AOS, which they probably did because they were bleeding subs after Trammel.
That always happens when a game starts to age, newer Mmo's come out, take subscribers, people move on to the next best thing. Just the way it is.
May 2000 Trammel releases, UO has just under 150k players. Early 2003, UO has just over 200k players. Mid 2003, UO peaks at 250k players, this is just after the release of AoS. 2003 to Present - UO subscribers decline, private servers are created, etc. This can be attributed to many things, including people just not finding anything new in the game, but SWG is probably the main culprit since it offered an alternative to UO.
Trammel boosted subs steadily for almost three years. AoS boosted subs for a very short period of time, but it wasn't enough. UO could not compete in a market where games had both full 3D graphics, well known IPs and accommodated players who weren't interested in player killing, looting or thievery. Not to mention UO was just getting old.
If the style of PvP is a factor in a game's success, then accommodating players who are interested in PvE and instanced PvP is much more of sales draw over world PvP meaning SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery. If the style of PvP is less of a factor than the game's developer or IP, then SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery; they need a good developer and a decent IP.
Players used to the old skillsystem and features tried AoS out for some months, i did, and then we left the game in drowes.
Felucca just about ended to exist some months after AoS.
That was the main reason why UO lost so many subscribers after Age of Shadows. Destroying UO by making it a WoW clone wasnt that smart. Felucca oldschool players left the game.
For me the constant ganking on UO was more than enough reason to leave. At the time I was working at a state prison and I felt like I went from dealing with real life psychos to their more sadistic brothers who had not been caught yet playing out their fantasies online.
The only thing that could really attract the hardcore crowd in this game is some good old, realistic PVP.
If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.
They basically need to make a better Darkfall.
Your way or the highway right? Why aren't all you hardcore players playing Eve? I get a kick out of these kind of post. Game companies want to make money. Your type of game fails at that. But you do have Eve. Although Eve been around for more than 10 years and has never broke 500k subs. Be thankful that CCP is a small company and its one game is still around. I do wish someone would have the guts to make the game you guys want. Then we would see less post like this or maybe not. You guys seem to get bored of the game after 2 or 3 months and start posting again.
There have been games that the "hardcore pvp" crowd claims to want. They crash and burn almost instantly. Also, there have been pvp servers in games that always turn into ghost towns. Hell, even DAoC's pvp servers turned into a laughingstock of idiots camping trainers to kill newly rolled level 20s. Yup, that's pretty damn hardcore.
Its very hard to take these guys seriously. To me it just seems like they want to rape newly rolled, or lesser geared toons. There are a lot of games out there with competitive pvp. There aren't too many that let you roam around knocking off lowbies. When I see this kind of thread all I see is "Please turn this game into a mindless gankfest."
UO PvP was never about ganking new players, PK:ing was, but that is something else. Unexperienced players dont see the difference btw PK:s and PvP players.
PvP is fighting about equally developed characters and full loot is the reward for being the better man.
Skills mattered in UO and were still waiting for a game as skill demanding as UO was. SotA with it card magic system will definetly not be a competitor to that crown.
And? I don't see where your going with this. There are a ton of games for competitive PvP players. Not so many for PK/gankers for the mere fact that games that tried to cater to this playstyle failed in terrific and amusing fashion.
Simply put, the OP is way off, and a lot of people hollering for full loot/stealing just want constant fresh meat to gank.
I'm all for a fantasy type EVE game. But we all know that's not what the OP wants. EVE is too tough for him.
Originally posted by HolophonistImplemented Trammel boosted subs for about a year. After that the game entered a 6 - 7 year downward spiral that was only temporarily halted after they released AOS, which they probably did because they were bleeding subs after Trammel.
That always happens when a game starts to age, newer Mmo's come out, take subscribers, people move on to the next best thing. Just the way it is.
May 2000 Trammel releases, UO has just under 150k players. Early 2003, UO has just over 200k players. Mid 2003, UO peaks at 250k players, this is just after the release of AoS. 2003 to Present - UO subscribers decline, private servers are created, etc. This can be attributed to many things, including people just not finding anything new in the game, but SWG is probably the main culprit since it offered an alternative to UO.
Trammel boosted subs steadily for almost three years. AoS boosted subs for a very short period of time, but it wasn't enough. UO could not compete in a market where games had both full 3D graphics, well known IPs and accommodated players who weren't interested in player killing, looting or thievery. Not to mention UO was just getting old.
If the style of PvP is a factor in a game's success, then accommodating players who are interested in PvE and instanced PvP is much more of sales draw over world PvP meaning SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery. If the style of PvP is less of a factor than the game's developer or IP, then SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery; they need a good developer and a decent IP.
No, it didn't. It only seems like that to somebody who is deliberately ignoring the whole data set. http://i.imgur.com/NmjiA.png
I'm not sure what you mean by "boosted stubs steadily for almost three years" but what actually happened is exactly what I said. It boosted subs for about a year, then started to decline. The only thing that stopped that decline was AOS.
The only thing that could really attract the hardcore crowd in this game is some good old, realistic PVP.
If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.
They basically need to make a better Darkfall.
Your way or the highway right? Why aren't all you hardcore players playing Eve? I get a kick out of these kind of post. Game companies want to make money. Your type of game fails at that. But you do have Eve. Although Eve been around for more than 10 years and has never broke 500k subs. Be thankful that CCP is a small company and its one game is still around. I do wish someone would have the guts to make the game you guys want. Then we would see less post like this or maybe not. You guys seem to get bored of the game after 2 or 3 months and start posting again.
There have been games that the "hardcore pvp" crowd claims to want. They crash and burn almost instantly. Also, there have been pvp servers in games that always turn into ghost towns. Hell, even DAoC's pvp servers turned into a laughingstock of idiots camping trainers to kill newly rolled level 20s. Yup, that's pretty damn hardcore.
Its very hard to take these guys seriously. To me it just seems like they want to rape newly rolled, or lesser geared toons. There are a lot of games out there with competitive pvp. There aren't too many that let you roam around knocking off lowbies. When I see this kind of thread all I see is "Please turn this game into a mindless gankfest."
UO PvP was never about ganking new players, PK:ing was, but that is something else. Unexperienced players dont see the difference btw PK:s and PvP players.
PvP is fighting about equally developed characters and full loot is the reward for being the better man.
Skills mattered in UO and were still waiting for a game as skill demanding as UO was. SotA with it card magic system will definetly not be a competitor to that crown.
And? I don't see where your going with this. There are a ton of games for competitive PvP players. Not so many for PK/gankers for the mere fact that games that tried to cater to this playstyle failed in terrific and amusing fashion.
Simply put, the OP is way off, and a lot of people hollering for full loot/stealing just want constant fresh meat to gank.
I'm all for a fantasy type EVE game. But we all know that's not what the OP wants. EVE is too tough for him.
Really? A ton of competitive MMORPG games out there? And how many of these you know of is in a fantasy world like UO?
How many of them have risk vs reward in them? How many have consequences? How many isnt broken indy games?
See what i did there? I removed them to 0.
PvP is not about ganking, it is about competitive PvP. Having risk vs reward and consequences is what the PvE crowd fear the most and thats why they always take up ganking as a defence to such gameplay. Ganking is used by honorless, unskilled players. Having enough hard consequences for being a murderer is a way to lower griefing. Statloss worked pretty well in old UO. They could have made it even harder but instead they implemented trammel and split the population. A very bad move.
Originally posted by karat76 For me the constant ganking on UO was more than enough reason to leave. At the time I was working at a state prison and I felt like I went from dealing with real life psychos to their more sadistic brothers who had not been caught yet playing out their fantasies online.
There was no constant ganking in UO after statloss was introduced to the game.
PK:s were few and they were playing the game very carefully. Dying in heavy statloss was many, many hundreds of hours waiting to resurect.
Did you even play the real UO or some freeshards with little to no statloss?
The only thing that could really attract the hardcore crowd in this game is some good old, realistic PVP.
If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.
They basically need to make a better Darkfall.
Your way or the highway right? Why aren't all you hardcore players playing Eve? I get a kick out of these kind of post. Game companies want to make money. Your type of game fails at that. But you do have Eve. Although Eve been around for more than 10 years and has never broke 500k subs. Be thankful that CCP is a small company and its one game is still around. I do wish someone would have the guts to make the game you guys want. Then we would see less post like this or maybe not. You guys seem to get bored of the game after 2 or 3 months and start posting again.
There have been games that the "hardcore pvp" crowd claims to want. They crash and burn almost instantly. Also, there have been pvp servers in games that always turn into ghost towns. Hell, even DAoC's pvp servers turned into a laughingstock of idiots camping trainers to kill newly rolled level 20s. Yup, that's pretty damn hardcore.
Its very hard to take these guys seriously. To me it just seems like they want to rape newly rolled, or lesser geared toons. There are a lot of games out there with competitive pvp. There aren't too many that let you roam around knocking off lowbies. When I see this kind of thread all I see is "Please turn this game into a mindless gankfest."
UO PvP was never about ganking new players, PK:ing was, but that is something else. Unexperienced players dont see the difference btw PK:s and PvP players.
PvP is fighting about equally developed characters and full loot is the reward for being the better man.
Skills mattered in UO and were still waiting for a game as skill demanding as UO was. SotA with it card magic system will definetly not be a competitor to that crown.
And? I don't see where your going with this. There are a ton of games for competitive PvP players. Not so many for PK/gankers for the mere fact that games that tried to cater to this playstyle failed in terrific and amusing fashion.
Simply put, the OP is way off, and a lot of people hollering for full loot/stealing just want constant fresh meat to gank.
I'm all for a fantasy type EVE game. But we all know that's not what the OP wants. EVE is too tough for him.
It's not about "competitive pvp." When I want competitive pvp, I'll play sc2 or quake. When I want an immersive virtual world with risk/reward, politics, danger, bounties, etc then I'll play UO or (hopefully) future sandbox titles. It frustrates me to no end when people talk about "competitive pvp" in these discussions.
The only thing that could really attract the hardcore crowd in this game is some good old, realistic PVP.
If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.
They basically need to make a better Darkfall.
Your way or the highway right? Why aren't all you hardcore players playing Eve? I get a kick out of these kind of post. Game companies want to make money. Your type of game fails at that. But you do have Eve. Although Eve been around for more than 10 years and has never broke 500k subs. Be thankful that CCP is a small company and its one game is still around. I do wish someone would have the guts to make the game you guys want. Then we would see less post like this or maybe not. You guys seem to get bored of the game after 2 or 3 months and start posting again.
There have been games that the "hardcore pvp" crowd claims to want. They crash and burn almost instantly. Also, there have been pvp servers in games that always turn into ghost towns. Hell, even DAoC's pvp servers turned into a laughingstock of idiots camping trainers to kill newly rolled level 20s. Yup, that's pretty damn hardcore.
Its very hard to take these guys seriously. To me it just seems like they want to rape newly rolled, or lesser geared toons. There are a lot of games out there with competitive pvp. There aren't too many that let you roam around knocking off lowbies. When I see this kind of thread all I see is "Please turn this game into a mindless gankfest."
UO PvP was never about ganking new players, PK:ing was, but that is something else. Unexperienced players dont see the difference btw PK:s and PvP players.
PvP is fighting about equally developed characters and full loot is the reward for being the better man.
Skills mattered in UO and were still waiting for a game as skill demanding as UO was. SotA with it card magic system will definetly not be a competitor to that crown.
And? I don't see where your going with this. There are a ton of games for competitive PvP players. Not so many for PK/gankers for the mere fact that games that tried to cater to this playstyle failed in terrific and amusing fashion.
Simply put, the OP is way off, and a lot of people hollering for full loot/stealing just want constant fresh meat to gank.
I'm all for a fantasy type EVE game. But we all know that's not what the OP wants. EVE is too tough for him.
It's not about "competitive pvp." When I want competitive pvp, I'll play sc2 or quake. When I want an immersive virtual world with risk/reward, politics, danger, bounties, etc then I'll play UO or (hopefully) future sandbox titles. It frustrates me to no end when people talk about "competitive pvp" in these discussions.
Agree. If i only want competitive PvP i play CoD. If i want the whole experience i play MMORPG games.
Originally posted by Aragon100 Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by The1ceQueenOriginally posted by HolophonistImplemented Trammel boosted subs for about a year. After that the game entered a 6 - 7 year downward spiral that was only temporarily halted after they released AOS, which they probably did because they were bleeding subs after Trammel.
That always happens when a game starts to age, newer Mmo's come out, take subscribers, people move on to the next best thing. Just the way it is. May 2000 Trammel releases, UO has just under 150k players. Early 2003, UO has just over 200k players. Mid 2003, UO peaks at 250k players, this is just after the release of AoS. 2003 to Present - UO subscribers decline, private servers are created, etc. This can be attributed to many things, including people just not finding anything new in the game, but SWG is probably the main culprit since it offered an alternative to UO. Trammel boosted subs steadily for almost three years. AoS boosted subs for a very short period of time, but it wasn't enough. UO could not compete in a market where games had both full 3D graphics, well known IPs and accommodated players who weren't interested in player killing, looting or thievery. Not to mention UO was just getting old. If the style of PvP is a factor in a game's success, then accommodating players who are interested in PvE and instanced PvP is much more of sales draw over world PvP meaning SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery. If the style of PvP is less of a factor than the game's developer or IP, then SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery; they need a good developer and a decent IP. ** Sources: MMODATA.netUltima Online Wikipedia PagePlayers used to the old skillsystem and features tried AoS out for some months, i did, and then we left the game in drowes.
Felucca just about ended to exist some months after AoS.
That was the main reason why UO lost so many subscribers after Age of Shadows. Destroying UO by making it a WoW clone wasnt that smart. Felucca oldschool players left the game.
"Felucca Old School" players were the minority in Ultima Online. Your personal experiences to the contrary, this was remarked upon and complained about by players as far back as 2001/2002. It's also something that's noted as common knowledge. If there was some reason to think this wasn't the case, someone would have made the case for it in the past decade on talking about it. The game didn't diminish because "Felucca Old School" players left the game, UO diminished because everyone started leaving the game.
Originally posted by HolophonistImplemented Trammel boosted subs for about a year. After that the game entered a 6 - 7 year downward spiral that was only temporarily halted after they released AOS, which they probably did because they were bleeding subs after Trammel.
That always happens when a game starts to age, newer Mmo's come out, take subscribers, people move on to the next best thing. Just the way it is.
May 2000 Trammel releases, UO has just under 150k players. Early 2003, UO has just over 200k players. Mid 2003, UO peaks at 250k players, this is just after the release of AoS. 2003 to Present - UO subscribers decline, private servers are created, etc. This can be attributed to many things, including people just not finding anything new in the game, but SWG is probably the main culprit since it offered an alternative to UO. Trammel boosted subs steadily for almost three years. AoS boosted subs for a very short period of time, but it wasn't enough. UO could not compete in a market where games had both full 3D graphics, well known IPs and accommodated players who weren't interested in player killing, looting or thievery. Not to mention UO was just getting old. If the style of PvP is a factor in a game's success, then accommodating players who are interested in PvE and instanced PvP is much more of sales draw over world PvP meaning SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery. If the style of PvP is less of a factor than the game's developer or IP, then SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery; they need a good developer and a decent IP. ** Sources: MMODATA.netUltima Online Wikipedia Page
Players used to the old skillsystem and features tried AoS out for some months, i did, and then we left the game in drowes.
Felucca just about ended to exist some months after AoS.
That was the main reason why UO lost so many subscribers after Age of Shadows. Destroying UO by making it a WoW clone wasnt that smart. Felucca oldschool players left the game.
The game didn't diminish because "Felucca Old School" players left the game, UO diminished because everyone started leaving the game.
Felucca players left the game in drowes and thats why game lost loads subscribers some months after AoS. I was there and i saw just about all old felucca guilds ending their subscriptions. I knew them and thats why i know your dead wrong.
Thats also the reason why oldschool UO freeshards had an incredible boom in players after AoS. Some had +150000 followers. Thats alot of players, more then the original game had some years after AoS.
Making UO to just another themepark WoW game removed more subscribers then any other change to the game.
Originally posted by HolophonistImplemented Trammel boosted subs for about a year. After that the game entered a 6 - 7 year downward spiral that was only temporarily halted after they released AOS, which they probably did because they were bleeding subs after Trammel.
That always happens when a game starts to age, newer Mmo's come out, take subscribers, people move on to the next best thing. Just the way it is.
May 2000 Trammel releases, UO has just under 150k players. Early 2003, UO has just over 200k players. Mid 2003, UO peaks at 250k players, this is just after the release of AoS. 2003 to Present - UO subscribers decline, private servers are created, etc. This can be attributed to many things, including people just not finding anything new in the game, but SWG is probably the main culprit since it offered an alternative to UO. Trammel boosted subs steadily for almost three years. AoS boosted subs for a very short period of time, but it wasn't enough. UO could not compete in a market where games had both full 3D graphics, well known IPs and accommodated players who weren't interested in player killing, looting or thievery. Not to mention UO was just getting old. If the style of PvP is a factor in a game's success, then accommodating players who are interested in PvE and instanced PvP is much more of sales draw over world PvP meaning SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery. If the style of PvP is less of a factor than the game's developer or IP, then SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery; they need a good developer and a decent IP. ** Sources: MMODATA.netUltima Online Wikipedia Page
Players used to the old skillsystem and features tried AoS out for some months, i did, and then we left the game in drowes.
Felucca just about ended to exist some months after AoS.
That was the main reason why UO lost so many subscribers after Age of Shadows. Destroying UO by making it a WoW clone wasnt that smart. Felucca oldschool players left the game.
The game didn't diminish because "Felucca Old School" players left the game, UO diminished because everyone started leaving the game.
Felucca players left the game in drowes and thats why game lost loads subscribers some months after AoS. I was there and i saw just about all old felucca guilds ending their subscriptions. I knew them and thats why i know your dead wrong.
Thats also the reason why oldschool UO freeshards had an incredible boom in players after AoS. Some had +150000 followers. Thats alot of players, more then the original game had some years after AoS.
Making UO to just another themepark WoW game removed more subscribers then any other change to the game.
You are kidding right?
AoS was released and several things happened, most notable was the increase in the cost of game time! What really broke the immersion in UO after AoS for me was the fact that the entire game was suddenly not about skill any longer, it was all about items. So many stupid items, silly colours, all sorts of junk.
That is what drove players away, not some cranked up false witness PvP junk.
Originally posted by HolophonistImplemented Trammel boosted subs for about a year. After that the game entered a 6 - 7 year downward spiral that was only temporarily halted after they released AOS, which they probably did because they were bleeding subs after Trammel.
That always happens when a game starts to age, newer Mmo's come out, take subscribers, people move on to the next best thing. Just the way it is.
May 2000 Trammel releases, UO has just under 150k players. Early 2003, UO has just over 200k players. Mid 2003, UO peaks at 250k players, this is just after the release of AoS. 2003 to Present - UO subscribers decline, private servers are created, etc. This can be attributed to many things, including people just not finding anything new in the game, but SWG is probably the main culprit since it offered an alternative to UO. Trammel boosted subs steadily for almost three years. AoS boosted subs for a very short period of time, but it wasn't enough. UO could not compete in a market where games had both full 3D graphics, well known IPs and accommodated players who weren't interested in player killing, looting or thievery. Not to mention UO was just getting old. If the style of PvP is a factor in a game's success, then accommodating players who are interested in PvE and instanced PvP is much more of sales draw over world PvP meaning SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery. If the style of PvP is less of a factor than the game's developer or IP, then SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery; they need a good developer and a decent IP. ** Sources: MMODATA.netUltima Online Wikipedia Page
Players used to the old skillsystem and features tried AoS out for some months, i did, and then we left the game in drowes.
Felucca just about ended to exist some months after AoS.
That was the main reason why UO lost so many subscribers after Age of Shadows. Destroying UO by making it a WoW clone wasnt that smart. Felucca oldschool players left the game.
The game didn't diminish because "Felucca Old School" players left the game, UO diminished because everyone started leaving the game.
Felucca players left the game in drowes and thats why game lost loads subscribers some months after AoS. I was there and i saw just about all old felucca guilds ending their subscriptions. I knew them and thats why i know your dead wrong.
Thats also the reason why oldschool UO freeshards had an incredible boom in players after AoS. Some had +150000 followers. Thats alot of players, more then the original game had some years after AoS.
Making UO to just another themepark WoW game removed more subscribers then any other change to the game.
You are kidding right?
AoS was released and several things happened, most notable was the increase in the cost of game time! What really broke the immersion in UO after AoS for me was the fact that the entire game was suddenly not about skill any longer, it was all about items. So many stupid items, silly colours, all sorts of junk.
That is what drove players away, not some cranked up false witness PvP junk.
Yeah that was what i just said. AoS with it's WoW items, the removal of loot and a new skill system - actually a new game- killed UO.
Just about all felucca players left the game and that is why subscribers goes down some months after AoS release.
Originally posted by HolophonistImplemented Trammel boosted subs for about a year. After that the game entered a 6 - 7 year downward spiral that was only temporarily halted after they released AOS, which they probably did because they were bleeding subs after Trammel.
That always happens when a game starts to age, newer Mmo's come out, take subscribers, people move on to the next best thing. Just the way it is.
May 2000 Trammel releases, UO has just under 150k players. Early 2003, UO has just over 200k players. Mid 2003, UO peaks at 250k players, this is just after the release of AoS. 2003 to Present - UO subscribers decline, private servers are created, etc. This can be attributed to many things, including people just not finding anything new in the game, but SWG is probably the main culprit since it offered an alternative to UO. Trammel boosted subs steadily for almost three years. AoS boosted subs for a very short period of time, but it wasn't enough. UO could not compete in a market where games had both full 3D graphics, well known IPs and accommodated players who weren't interested in player killing, looting or thievery. Not to mention UO was just getting old. If the style of PvP is a factor in a game's success, then accommodating players who are interested in PvE and instanced PvP is much more of sales draw over world PvP meaning SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery. If the style of PvP is less of a factor than the game's developer or IP, then SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery; they need a good developer and a decent IP. ** Sources: MMODATA.netUltima Online Wikipedia Page
Players used to the old skillsystem and features tried AoS out for some months, i did, and then we left the game in drowes.
Felucca just about ended to exist some months after AoS.
That was the main reason why UO lost so many subscribers after Age of Shadows. Destroying UO by making it a WoW clone wasnt that smart. Felucca oldschool players left the game.
The game didn't diminish because "Felucca Old School" players left the game, UO diminished because everyone started leaving the game.
Felucca players left the game in drowes and thats why game lost loads subscribers some months after AoS. I was there and i saw just about all old felucca guilds ending their subscriptions. I knew them and thats why i know your dead wrong.
Thats also the reason why oldschool UO freeshards had an incredible boom in players after AoS. Some had +150000 followers. Thats alot of players, more then the original game had some years after AoS.
Making UO to just another themepark WoW game removed more subscribers then any other change to the game.
You are kidding right?
AoS was released and several things happened, most notable was the increase in the cost of game time! What really broke the immersion in UO after AoS for me was the fact that the entire game was suddenly not about skill any longer, it was all about items. So many stupid items, silly colours, all sorts of junk.
That is what drove players away, not some cranked up false witness PvP junk.
Yeah that was what i just said. AoS with it's WoW items, the removal of loot and a new skill system - actually a new game- killed UO.
Just about all felucca players left the game and that is why subscribers goes down some months after AoS release.
Ok, as long as you were not implying it was splitting up the players for Tram/Fel which caused the problems. It was the core changes to the game which were the issues. Not the Tram/Fel thing.
Comments
AAA companies will take pve>pvp any day, because pvp doesn't make money (as much money, that is). i'd be willing to bet that for every 1 "pvp player", there are dozens of others that would rather adventure in a pve world.
that said, full loot pvp just means "i get to piss all over a newbs play time because im bored" because really, how many people are going to 1v1 a person of equal skill with all of their gear on the line. i've played my fair share of pvp-centric games, and it always ends up the same.
the only significant difference between a pvp and a pve-centric game, is that in a pve game, you kill monsters. in pvp, you kill your player base. now, which one is more inclined to leave first.
The game is still profiting with a subscription and after Trammel was added.
Heck, I've never lost my subscription to UO. I still play it after all these years. Trammel didn't kill anything. Once there was Trammel, you could flip to Felucca side and see how empty it was, there were only a handful, and still are only a handful of people on Felucca side. Trammel was always bustling with people. There's no where near the people playing UO as there once was, it's an old game, but Trammel did not kill UO, you're wrong there.
On subject though. Times have changed as well as Mmo's. People Do Not want to lose their hard earned gold/items in a game. That's why you don't see games like Darkfall being very successful. It's a niche audience that will play those games these days.
Do I miss the old Fel days UO had, yes I do, but even when I played old UO, I hardly ever looted anyone stuff. I was happy just defeating them. If I looted, I looted my stuff if that person had beaten me, then got my stuff back and left theirs. It was never about looting other people's stuff for me.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
Implementing Trammel boosted subs for about a year. After that the game entered a 6 - 7 year downward spiral that was only temporarily halted after they released AOS, which they probably did because they were bleeding subs after Trammel.
That always happens when a game starts to age, newer Mmo's come out, take subscribers, people move on to the next best thing. Just the way it is.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
No... that's how modern MMOs work because modern MMOs are designed around catering to newer players and giving in to every whim imaginable. That's why Trammel failed and that's why modern themepark MMOs fail. EVE has been steadily growing for years.
There have been games that the "hardcore pvp" crowd claims to want. They crash and burn almost instantly. Also, there have been pvp servers in games that always turn into ghost towns. Hell, even DAoC's pvp servers turned into a laughingstock of idiots camping trainers to kill newly rolled level 20s. Yup, that's pretty damn hardcore.
Its very hard to take these guys seriously. To me it just seems like they want to rape newly rolled, or lesser geared toons. There are a lot of games out there with competitive pvp. There aren't too many that let you roam around knocking off lowbies. When I see this kind of thread all I see is "Please turn this game into a mindless gankfest."
It's hard for you to take us seriously because you don't know what you're talking about. "pvp servers" are a joke. If you can easily turn on/off pvp, then the game wasn't made with pvp in mind. It's tacked on. That's not what "we" want.
Also, please stop generalizing about people who want ow pvp saying we want to "rape new players." There are a lot of us who want that kind of game because it makes it feel more meaningful. I'm one of the most adamant ow pvp advocates and I never pk innocent players.
No way, making UO into a WoW clone was what really removed players from the game. Just about all that played felucca ended their subscriptions.
So you see, it was actually making UO a themepark game that destroyed it, not full loot or stealing.
May 2000 Trammel releases, UO has just under 150k players.
Early 2003, UO has just over 200k players.
Mid 2003, UO peaks at 250k players, this is just after the release of AoS.
2003 to Present - UO subscribers decline, private servers are created, etc. This can be attributed to many things, including people just not finding anything new in the game, but SWG is probably the main culprit since it offered an alternative to UO.
Trammel boosted subs steadily for almost three years. AoS boosted subs for a very short period of time, but it wasn't enough. UO could not compete in a market where games had both full 3D graphics, well known IPs and accommodated players who weren't interested in player killing, looting or thievery. Not to mention UO was just getting old.
If the style of PvP is a factor in a game's success, then accommodating players who are interested in PvE and instanced PvP is much more of sales draw over world PvP meaning SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery. If the style of PvP is less of a factor than the game's developer or IP, then SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery; they need a good developer and a decent IP.
**
Sources:
MMODATA.net
Ultima Online Wikipedia Page
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
UO PvP was never about ganking new players, PK:ing was, but that is something else. Unexperienced players dont see the difference btw PK:s and PvP players.
PvP is fighting about equally developed characters and full loot is the reward for being the better man.
Skills mattered in UO and were still waiting for a game as skill demanding as UO was. SotA with it card magic system will definetly not be a competitor to that crown.
Players used to the old skillsystem and features tried AoS out for some months, i did, and then we left the game in drowes.
Felucca just about ended to exist some months after AoS.
That was the main reason why UO lost so many subscribers after Age of Shadows. Destroying UO by making it a WoW clone wasnt that smart. Felucca oldschool players left the game.
And? I don't see where your going with this. There are a ton of games for competitive PvP players. Not so many for PK/gankers for the mere fact that games that tried to cater to this playstyle failed in terrific and amusing fashion.
Simply put, the OP is way off, and a lot of people hollering for full loot/stealing just want constant fresh meat to gank.
I'm all for a fantasy type EVE game. But we all know that's not what the OP wants. EVE is too tough for him.
No, it didn't. It only seems like that to somebody who is deliberately ignoring the whole data set. http://i.imgur.com/NmjiA.png
I'm not sure what you mean by "boosted stubs steadily for almost three years" but what actually happened is exactly what I said. It boosted subs for about a year, then started to decline. The only thing that stopped that decline was AOS.
Really? A ton of competitive MMORPG games out there? And how many of these you know of is in a fantasy world like UO?
How many of them have risk vs reward in them? How many have consequences? How many isnt broken indy games?
See what i did there? I removed them to 0.
PvP is not about ganking, it is about competitive PvP. Having risk vs reward and consequences is what the PvE crowd fear the most and thats why they always take up ganking as a defence to such gameplay. Ganking is used by honorless, unskilled players. Having enough hard consequences for being a murderer is a way to lower griefing. Statloss worked pretty well in old UO. They could have made it even harder but instead they implemented trammel and split the population. A very bad move.
There was no constant ganking in UO after statloss was introduced to the game.
PK:s were few and they were playing the game very carefully. Dying in heavy statloss was many, many hundreds of hours waiting to resurect.
Did you even play the real UO or some freeshards with little to no statloss?
It's not about "competitive pvp." When I want competitive pvp, I'll play sc2 or quake. When I want an immersive virtual world with risk/reward, politics, danger, bounties, etc then I'll play UO or (hopefully) future sandbox titles. It frustrates me to no end when people talk about "competitive pvp" in these discussions.
Agree. If i only want competitive PvP i play CoD. If i want the whole experience i play MMORPG games.
May 2000 Trammel releases, UO has just under 150k players. Early 2003, UO has just over 200k players. Mid 2003, UO peaks at 250k players, this is just after the release of AoS. 2003 to Present - UO subscribers decline, private servers are created, etc. This can be attributed to many things, including people just not finding anything new in the game, but SWG is probably the main culprit since it offered an alternative to UO. Trammel boosted subs steadily for almost three years. AoS boosted subs for a very short period of time, but it wasn't enough. UO could not compete in a market where games had both full 3D graphics, well known IPs and accommodated players who weren't interested in player killing, looting or thievery. Not to mention UO was just getting old. If the style of PvP is a factor in a game's success, then accommodating players who are interested in PvE and instanced PvP is much more of sales draw over world PvP meaning SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery. If the style of PvP is less of a factor than the game's developer or IP, then SotA doesn't need player killing, looting and thievery; they need a good developer and a decent IP. ** Sources: MMODATA.net Ultima Online Wikipedia Page
Players used to the old skillsystem and features tried AoS out for some months, i did, and then we left the game in drowes.
Felucca just about ended to exist some months after AoS.
That was the main reason why UO lost so many subscribers after Age of Shadows. Destroying UO by making it a WoW clone wasnt that smart. Felucca oldschool players left the game.
"Felucca Old School" players were the minority in Ultima Online. Your personal experiences to the contrary, this was remarked upon and complained about by players as far back as 2001/2002. It's also something that's noted as common knowledge. If there was some reason to think this wasn't the case, someone would have made the case for it in the past decade on talking about it. The game didn't diminish because "Felucca Old School" players left the game, UO diminished because everyone started leaving the game.
**
Sources:
1UP Article on UO
Someone complaining in the SotA forums about Trammel release
More or less the same conversation from 2005 on these forums
Blog from 2005 noting that the population moved to Trammel
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Your wrong.
Felucca players left the game in drowes and thats why game lost loads subscribers some months after AoS. I was there and i saw just about all old felucca guilds ending their subscriptions. I knew them and thats why i know your dead wrong.
Thats also the reason why oldschool UO freeshards had an incredible boom in players after AoS. Some had +150000 followers. Thats alot of players, more then the original game had some years after AoS.
Making UO to just another themepark WoW game removed more subscribers then any other change to the game.
You are kidding right?
AoS was released and several things happened, most notable was the increase in the cost of game time! What really broke the immersion in UO after AoS for me was the fact that the entire game was suddenly not about skill any longer, it was all about items. So many stupid items, silly colours, all sorts of junk.
That is what drove players away, not some cranked up false witness PvP junk.
http://insanemembrain.wordpress.com/
Yeah that was what i just said. AoS with it's WoW items, the removal of loot and a new skill system - actually a new game- killed UO.
Just about all felucca players left the game and that is why subscribers goes down some months after AoS release.
Ok, as long as you were not implying it was splitting up the players for Tram/Fel which caused the problems. It was the core changes to the game which were the issues. Not the Tram/Fel thing.
http://insanemembrain.wordpress.com/
