There should be no levels in MMORPGs because all the progression you make at level 10 is meaningless when you are level 20, and all progression you make at level 20 is meaningless at level 30 and so on. This means that everything you do with your character before max level is meaningless from a progression point of view and that creates the race-to-max mentality which means that a huge part of the world is just hurried through and all the work that th devs have put into it is just hastely experienced by the players.
No levels, and you can start to enjoy th game right from second 1.
Personally I think instead of max levels of 60-100 they should add all the levels of trades and fighting skills to get an overall combat level like they did in runescape. I think it would add a feeling of accomplishment I remember back in the day seeing a character in runescape that was like 100 or more thinking damn hes put some time in that char. And I always liked the method of leveling str, dex, att, and range and magic skill seperatly I think it adds more possibility of depth class customization and low level fun. There could be quests specific to someoen with level 60 range and 40 str etc. And imagine how fun pvp could be lol a ranger could whip out a 2hander in close combat I think that would add an everlasting low level depth and excitment for the game. Now you see a guy level 60 and check his gear and you alrady know what there about because you know his character plays exacly like yours.
Ya but see what they did there they gave one class that you can barley customize so everyone looks and plays pretty much the same lol how long do you really think that will last. The players rush to max level because of the focus only on endgame content now what would happen if that focus was devided between every 20 levels or so? it would kill the rush to max level or what if instead of needing max level to play the endgame they made the dungeons with a minimum stat requirement that would certainly shake things up a bit lol. If bill wanted to make a pure dps warrior he could go in an endgame dungeon if he was say level 45 and the dungeon was a level 60 but he worked so hard on his main to get his level 45 gear maxed out with +max jewels and trinkets. Mabe he wants to go to get some exp and high crafting materials but there was only 2 spots in the dungeon for lower level scaled characters Its just an idea to add a more lasting experience.
Please do not mistake this for "how long should it take to reach end game"
I took me 1 month to reach max in FFXIV:ARR, which I think is fair. Especially because I didnt have to pay that entire month.
I hear vets saying it took 6+ months in the olden days, which doesnt sound bad but doesnt sound "good" either, it sounds like a journey. And I love journeys, but only if their fun.
So, to you, how long should the journey be?
I do not care how long because my primary joy of playing is not final destination but travel itself. As long as travel is fun I do not care. But I know many rush to end game, missing whole contend, and then playing over and over again same dungeons and wanting more and more.
About 1 month you should clarifiy what you mean with that. 30 days of 6 to 8 hours of gameplay or 30 x 24 hours of gameplay. Etc.
So far only games where I have all possible combinations of alts maxed out are Wow and Swtor, in Rift 2 (but there are essentially 4 in total with many sub variations) .... and hardly can remember any game where I have resisted to have even single maxed out alt. But is true once tooks much more time so is hard to compare.
It depends. I feel that leveling in a game about 'endgame' should be more about giving you time to 'learn your class' then anything else. Depending on the game, this could mean anywhere from 24 hours total game time (which is short to me) to perhaps being a 7 days of play. Likely somewhere in between depending on the game.
I feel though that a game that doesn't have that focus on 'the end' (which I feel would be stronger given that we aren't engrained with 'max level or bust') It should be quite long extenses of time, perhaps weeks if not even months of gameplay time. I know, it sounds crazy but a game that expands on the journey and does it right, I feel it can take that long and still be satisfying. Its all about what the player can do to pass time as they progress that matters the most. Once you do hit that max ( which would feel like an amazing accomplishment) it pretty much would be 'the end' as mostly it would be just activities with a more souped up character.
In short, its all about the game. I feel if a game isn't going to focus on the journey as much as the 'end game' (aka most MMos today for better or worst) the journey should be just long enough to help let the player 'learn' their class and improve themselves, ramping up the difficulty and providing learning and challenge as they progress.
Originally posted by syriinx ...Shorter leveling means lower retention. Makes it much easier to let go of a game.
Exactly correct.
As an MMO gamer, you should find that point to be both embarrassing and insulting.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It should be virtually impossible to reach max level in mmos, i would prefer a logaritmic progression table and new levels being added before the first player reaches max level...
yes it would be grindy at top levels... But it would mean unlimmited progression.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
It should be virtually impossible to reach max level in mmos, i would prefer a logaritmic progression table and new levels being added before the first player reaches max level...
yes it would be grindy at top levels... But it would mean unlimmited progression.
So ya'll favor going back to MUDs after all, then? I've played that xp curve...in the late 80s.
Back to single-source experience, too? Crittur kills only? Is Lineage I still open?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
As long as it would normally take for you to understand your character/class - how to play it effectively, understand it's abilities etc.
I don't think it should be any longer than a week if its an endgame focused game. I believe you *properly* learn how to play your character/class in Endgame games at the actual Endgame, as nothing compares to the Endgame while grind/leveling.
But if a game has meaningful leveling/grinding and not 'open up at endgame' then it should take a lot longer.
GW1 had it right, in that you could start doing end game PvP right away, or if you preferred you could level 20 levels before doing it, which I believe was a good amount of time to be leveling.
Vanilla WoW also did it right, in that yeah the endgame was where the game was at, but leveling WAS meaningful, and hard, and gave a sense of acomplishment.
There shouldn't be an "end" to your character's advancement. This is a fundamental problem with level-based games, you eventually reach the point where there is nothing more to do for your character. Likewise, there shouldn't be an end-game.
Things such as alternate advancements, a staple of Everquest, have their limitations. If you spend enough time, you can reach the point where you can't get anymore until the next expansion.
How long should it take? It depends on the individual and game. If the devs want you to reach the end-game quickly, then leveling will be pointless and boring. Most PVP games have a rather generic (for me) leveling system. The goal is to reach cap (assuming it is level based) so you can participate in PVP.
TLDR Version
You can't have an arbitrary number to reach cap level without tying it together with the ultimate goal of the game.
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Just based on experience I've found the most enjoyable pacing to be around 3-4 months till max level. When the max level can be reached in 2 weeks to a month I feel a lot more rushed to reach the endgame and the whole leveling experience feels shallow. Surprisingly, when it takes longer I actually take the time to "smell the flowers" so to speak and "waste time" doing things other than grinding to the max level. I don't know why that is, maybe cause if it takes awhile it doesn't feel like a race since players are not likely to hit the max level much faster than me (1 week faster feels like a long time when it only takes a month to get to max level to begin with, whereas when it takes longer a few weeks or a month doesn't feel like a big deal).
The leveling process is an important part of diving into the lore of the gameworld and bonding with your character; make it too quick and the whole experience feels very empty. Longer than 3-4 months however to reach max level (assuming you play frequently) could be too long because after a certain point you want to hit a level playing field with the rest of the playerbase. So from my experience I feel the most enjoyable leveling time is 3-4 months.
It needs to be sufficiently long for the entire community to be able to cool down and spend some time in the world instead of rushing to endgame. I'm not sure what that number is...
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW Currently playing: GW2, EVE Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Vanilla WoW also did it right, in that yeah the endgame was where the game was at, but leveling WAS meaningful, and hard, and gave a sense of acomplishment.
My first WoW character was a balance/resto druid. And I leveled him as balance/resto (if anyone played WoW at release, he knows how awful the druid class was to level).
I started at release day, Nov. 23, 2004, and I was level 60 early January (don't remember the precise date sorry).
That's at best one and half month of casual play to get to 60. That's really hard? Is that really an accomplishment?
WoW's rate is about the minimum time I find acceptable. I'd prefer more of an EQ style pace. In both of those games it was worth farming an item because it wouldn't just go obsolete in 20 minutes time like in GW2 or Rift. To me if you are going to have a leveling system that is the first key to it. You can't make the items feel worthless along the way.
The other big key is obviously having enough content to explore so you aren't just zoning in on your level all the time. Preferably more dynamic content and less static like EQ/WoW had.
If I'm in a leveling game, I expect it to take some time. During that time, I expect to learn how to play my character and to learn the story of the world I'm in. I'm not interested in rushing to endgame and play casually, so I look for leveling to cap to take 2-3 months. And by the end of that time, I will be quite invested in my character.
As long as it would normally take for you to understand your character/class - how to play it effectively, understand it's abilities etc.
So a few hours? Great.
There's a big variable unmentioned here; previous MMO experience.
There are folks who pick up 'understand' very quickly, as fast as it takes to read the skills. Previous experience, similar titles.
There are folks who never 'understand', but naturally perceive themselves as members of the first group. (Generally called noobs.)
I wouldn't take either on a high-end raid, until after they've practiced some raiding skills and demonstrated their competence.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus It should be virtually impossible to reach max level in mmos, i would prefer a logaritmic progression table and new levels being added before the first player reaches max level... yes it would be grindy at top levels... But it would mean unlimmited progression.
That sounds very cool. It should remove the 'get to max level' obsession that current MMO players have.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I think it should take 6-12 months to get to max level and that levels should mean something like they did in Everquest 1 with its famous "hell" levels, it seriously took me forever to grind off level 54 in sebilis.
Casuals should not be able to ding max level in a month, hardcores should not be able to ding max level in 2 or 3 days let alone 1 single day. Crafting should require 6-12 months but be doable while doing the combat leveling and not be tied to it, ie. no artificial required combat leveling quests like Lord of the Rings had, where you had to beg high levels to help you out, or World of Warcrafts required level 80 to increase cap on profession limit.
Obviously the exact hours between casuals and hardcores I don't know, but world events should always cater to everyone level 20 and over, unlike World of Warcrafts level 90 only Headless horseman raids or other games world event raid bosses. There should be something for everyone scalable for world event fun temporary content. Game updates should consist of fun stuff!! Stuff for all levels from soloables, to grouping, to raiding! Every single level should matter and nothing should be fly by! Low level zones shouldn't be outdated, but should scale up to your group's level, or scale down the loot if you enter solo. Lord of the Rings Online skirmishes let you choose solo, 3 man or full party, while WoW's flexible raids let you raid with less than a full raid force.
It is to easy to level in mmos, that is one reason my boyfriend quit playing them, he greatly enjoyed the journey of the leveling process, but finds the end game to be boring meaningless raiding.
Please, someone give us an mmo where it actually takes time to level, and where low level zones are not all deserted! Or taken up by a single max level farming materials for his tradeskill profession.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus It should be virtually impossible to reach max level in mmos, i would prefer a logaritmic progression table and new levels being added before the first player reaches max level...
yes it would be grindy at top levels... But it would mean unlimmited progression.
That sounds very cool. It should remove the 'get to max level' obsession that current MMO players have.
Unlimited is not good if it is not fun.
The question is not whether progression is unlimited, but the way to progress is fun or not. I wouldn't play a 10 level max game if the way to progress is to kill the same mob at the same spot again, again and again.
I may play an unlimited progression game if there are good random dungeons.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Unlimited is not good if it is not fun.
That statement is rather pointless since you can replace 'unlimited' with any other word.
Originally posted by nariusseldon The question is not whether progression is unlimited.
For YOU, the question is not whether progression is unlimited, but you can't speak for others.
Originally posted by nariusseldon I may play an unlimited progression game if there are good random dungeons.
I don't think game makers are interested in the opinion of those who do not buy their products.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Comments
It should take forever to reach max level.
Level cap is the single most stupid invention in MMOs.
Pretty much why I said:
"levels (or skill levels)".
Is there something you didn't understand there?
My computer is better than yours.
There should be no levels in MMORPGs because all the progression you make at level 10 is meaningless when you are level 20, and all progression you make at level 20 is meaningless at level 30 and so on. This means that everything you do with your character before max level is meaningless from a progression point of view and that creates the race-to-max mentality which means that a huge part of the world is just hurried through and all the work that th devs have put into it is just hastely experienced by the players.
No levels, and you can start to enjoy th game right from second 1.
You got it. It is called Diablo 3 Reaper of Souls. Paragon levels will have no limit. You can level forever and ever.
I do not care how long because my primary joy of playing is not final destination but travel itself. As long as travel is fun I do not care. But I know many rush to end game, missing whole contend, and then playing over and over again same dungeons and wanting more and more.
About 1 month you should clarifiy what you mean with that. 30 days of 6 to 8 hours of gameplay or 30 x 24 hours of gameplay. Etc.
So far only games where I have all possible combinations of alts maxed out are Wow and Swtor, in Rift 2 (but there are essentially 4 in total with many sub variations) .... and hardly can remember any game where I have resisted to have even single maxed out alt. But is true once tooks much more time so is hard to compare.
It depends. I feel that leveling in a game about 'endgame' should be more about giving you time to 'learn your class' then anything else. Depending on the game, this could mean anywhere from 24 hours total game time (which is short to me) to perhaps being a 7 days of play. Likely somewhere in between depending on the game.
I feel though that a game that doesn't have that focus on 'the end' (which I feel would be stronger given that we aren't engrained with 'max level or bust') It should be quite long extenses of time, perhaps weeks if not even months of gameplay time. I know, it sounds crazy but a game that expands on the journey and does it right, I feel it can take that long and still be satisfying. Its all about what the player can do to pass time as they progress that matters the most. Once you do hit that max ( which would feel like an amazing accomplishment) it pretty much would be 'the end' as mostly it would be just activities with a more souped up character.
In short, its all about the game. I feel if a game isn't going to focus on the journey as much as the 'end game' (aka most MMos today for better or worst) the journey should be just long enough to help let the player 'learn' their class and improve themselves, ramping up the difficulty and providing learning and challenge as they progress.
As an MMO gamer, you should find that point to be both embarrassing and insulting.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It should be virtually impossible to reach max level in mmos, i would prefer a logaritmic progression table and new levels being added before the first player reaches max level...
yes it would be grindy at top levels... But it would mean unlimmited progression.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
So ya'll favor going back to MUDs after all, then? I've played that xp curve...in the late 80s.
Back to single-source experience, too? Crittur kills only? Is Lineage I still open?Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
As long as it would normally take for you to understand your character/class - how to play it effectively, understand it's abilities etc.
I don't think it should be any longer than a week if its an endgame focused game. I believe you *properly* learn how to play your character/class in Endgame games at the actual Endgame, as nothing compares to the Endgame while grind/leveling.
But if a game has meaningful leveling/grinding and not 'open up at endgame' then it should take a lot longer.
GW1 had it right, in that you could start doing end game PvP right away, or if you preferred you could level 20 levels before doing it, which I believe was a good amount of time to be leveling.
Vanilla WoW also did it right, in that yeah the endgame was where the game was at, but leveling WAS meaningful, and hard, and gave a sense of acomplishment.
There shouldn't be an "end" to your character's advancement. This is a fundamental problem with level-based games, you eventually reach the point where there is nothing more to do for your character. Likewise, there shouldn't be an end-game.
Things such as alternate advancements, a staple of Everquest, have their limitations. If you spend enough time, you can reach the point where you can't get anymore until the next expansion.
How long should it take? It depends on the individual and game. If the devs want you to reach the end-game quickly, then leveling will be pointless and boring. Most PVP games have a rather generic (for me) leveling system. The goal is to reach cap (assuming it is level based) so you can participate in PVP.
TLDR Version
You can't have an arbitrary number to reach cap level without tying it together with the ultimate goal of the game.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Just based on experience I've found the most enjoyable pacing to be around 3-4 months till max level. When the max level can be reached in 2 weeks to a month I feel a lot more rushed to reach the endgame and the whole leveling experience feels shallow. Surprisingly, when it takes longer I actually take the time to "smell the flowers" so to speak and "waste time" doing things other than grinding to the max level. I don't know why that is, maybe cause if it takes awhile it doesn't feel like a race since players are not likely to hit the max level much faster than me (1 week faster feels like a long time when it only takes a month to get to max level to begin with, whereas when it takes longer a few weeks or a month doesn't feel like a big deal).
The leveling process is an important part of diving into the lore of the gameworld and bonding with your character; make it too quick and the whole experience feels very empty. Longer than 3-4 months however to reach max level (assuming you play frequently) could be too long because after a certain point you want to hit a level playing field with the rest of the playerbase. So from my experience I feel the most enjoyable leveling time is 3-4 months.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
My first WoW character was a balance/resto druid. And I leveled him as balance/resto (if anyone played WoW at release, he knows how awful the druid class was to level).
I started at release day, Nov. 23, 2004, and I was level 60 early January (don't remember the precise date sorry).
That's at best one and half month of casual play to get to 60. That's really hard? Is that really an accomplishment?
My computer is better than yours.
WoW's rate is about the minimum time I find acceptable. I'd prefer more of an EQ style pace. In both of those games it was worth farming an item because it wouldn't just go obsolete in 20 minutes time like in GW2 or Rift. To me if you are going to have a leveling system that is the first key to it. You can't make the items feel worthless along the way.
The other big key is obviously having enough content to explore so you aren't just zoning in on your level all the time. Preferably more dynamic content and less static like EQ/WoW had.
If I'm in a leveling game, I expect it to take some time. During that time, I expect to learn how to play my character and to learn the story of the world I'm in. I'm not interested in rushing to endgame and play casually, so I look for leveling to cap to take 2-3 months. And by the end of that time, I will be quite invested in my character.
So a few hours? Great.
There's a big variable unmentioned here; previous MMO experience.
There are folks who pick up 'understand' very quickly, as fast as it takes to read the skills. Previous experience, similar titles.
There are folks who never 'understand', but naturally perceive themselves as members of the first group. (Generally called noobs.)
I wouldn't take either on a high-end raid, until after they've practiced some raiding skills and demonstrated their competence.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Oh, i was only talking about general gameplay. High-end raid requires hours of practice. I have been there, not very fun, and too much commitment.
I prefer games to be more like games, and less like jobs.
That sounds very cool. It should remove the 'get to max level' obsession that current MMO players have.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I think it should take 6-12 months to get to max level and that levels should mean something like they did in Everquest 1 with its famous "hell" levels, it seriously took me forever to grind off level 54 in sebilis.
Casuals should not be able to ding max level in a month, hardcores should not be able to ding max level in 2 or 3 days let alone 1 single day. Crafting should require 6-12 months but be doable while doing the combat leveling and not be tied to it, ie. no artificial required combat leveling quests like Lord of the Rings had, where you had to beg high levels to help you out, or World of Warcrafts required level 80 to increase cap on profession limit.
Obviously the exact hours between casuals and hardcores I don't know, but world events should always cater to everyone level 20 and over, unlike World of Warcrafts level 90 only Headless horseman raids or other games world event raid bosses. There should be something for everyone scalable for world event fun temporary content. Game updates should consist of fun stuff!! Stuff for all levels from soloables, to grouping, to raiding! Every single level should matter and nothing should be fly by! Low level zones shouldn't be outdated, but should scale up to your group's level, or scale down the loot if you enter solo. Lord of the Rings Online skirmishes let you choose solo, 3 man or full party, while WoW's flexible raids let you raid with less than a full raid force.
It is to easy to level in mmos, that is one reason my boyfriend quit playing them, he greatly enjoyed the journey of the leveling process, but finds the end game to be boring meaningless raiding.
Please, someone give us an mmo where it actually takes time to level, and where low level zones are not all deserted! Or taken up by a single max level farming materials for his tradeskill profession.
Unlimited is not good if it is not fun.
The question is not whether progression is unlimited, but the way to progress is fun or not. I wouldn't play a 10 level max game if the way to progress is to kill the same mob at the same spot again, again and again.
I may play an unlimited progression game if there are good random dungeons.
That statement is rather pointless since you can replace 'unlimited' with any other word.
For YOU, the question is not whether progression is unlimited, but you can't speak for others.
I don't think game makers are interested in the opinion of those who do not buy their products.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit