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CRAFTING: It's importance and how to make it useful.
hephestus15
Member Posts: 11
Hello there!
I'm not a poster, but I have lurked for a while on these forums, and I have played MMOs since Ultima Online off and on.
One of the things I like to do most in MMOs though, is to craft things. Making items used by other players, working with said players to get materials, balancing your books to make sure you can produce with the largets margin of profit with the least amount of time invested. All of this excites me just as much as when I'm thwacking a dragon on the head with a hammer, or crawling through caves filled with rats and undead
Recently, and not so recently for that matter, though crafting has been nothing short of a shiny medal. 'Yay I'm a level 513 Enchanter, I hope people check my profile and read this' seems to be about as deep as it gets.
Some games go half-way, allowing you to make some pretty good gear for lower-levels but after a certain point it just falls out of style. Soon, big boss monsters start dropping shinier and shinier gear, and crafted items are forgotten. Only philanthropists really continue to craft.
Why is this necessary? I know it breaks realism to have a dragon just happen to whip-up a hammer as it dies and say, 'Here you go guys, good job, take this!' So why not just incorporate crafters in this step?
At the moment, I am playing FFXIV and don't see why Ifrit can't drop 1-2 horns, 1-2 hooves, some scales, and just have that be it. Afterwards, the players bring loot to a level 50 (current max level) crafter of the appropriate type, and they make said Ifrit weapon / Darklight Armor / etc.
Need/Greed could be linked to the dropped items type, horns for lancers/pugilist/archers, hooves for marauders / gladiators, you get the idea.
One game that DOES do this, is Monster Hunter Freedom Online. Monsters drop monster things: eyes, hearts, skin, and then you have to take that back and make yourself an appropriate piece of gear. It's not a perfect system, but why not throw in crafting for some inter-dependency?
I'll also just mention EVE online, a kinda dark horse I admit of MMOs, as being an economy run nearly 100% based on crafted materials, and that's doing just fine.
I want to know the counter-arguments and why people are scared to do this, when it seems so simple and logical from my point of view.
Before I ramble on too much, I'll leave it at this! What do YOU guys think about crafting and what can be done to improve it? I gave an example of game play interaction, but systems and such are there to consider as well!
Comments
Hiya, heph
I share your frustration. While I am not a huge crafter type, I prefer a system where I am dependent upon them rather than independently able to just go out and farm the right mobs until I get my uber gear. I want this for myriad reasons, but all of them have to do with creating the sense of a living, breathing world and fostering meaningful social interaction beyond combat. Camelot Unchained is one upcoming game that is going to have dedicated crafting classes and the complete lack of gear loot from npcs. All weapons and armor will be crafter-made. As per your desire for dropped materials/ingredients mentioned above, mines/resource nodes and npcs will be sources for said materials/ingredients.
Granted, other games have indeed implemented deep and well-done crafting systems, but the CU approach in particular interests me mostly because its progression system is purely on RVR rather than PVE for combatants, and as crafters are their own CLASSES, then all aspects of RVR will hopefully be designed around this interplay between the two types of player. While there have been open-world/sandbox games that have enabled this kind of stuff, having one BUILT around that dynamic is pretty exciting for crafters and non-crafters alike. It's got a concept that represents much of what I want from crafting:
* Dedicated focus on crafting that is being given as much consideration (at least on paper) as combat.
* Crafted equipment is the only equipment.
* A role for crafters to play in RVR (siege, building, resource nodes, reinforcement, etc) and a point to RVR that involves crafting in general (capturing resource nodes, defending supply trains/roads, protecting crafters in the field, etc.)
* A Darkness Falls-style mega-dungeon with special forges at which special items can be created... if they can be reached. So awesome.
I am really looking forward to what this potentially modular, flexible, and robust crafting dynamic could offer in a three realm RVR game. Now to wait for 2015 with fingers crossed.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
For crafting to remain relevant, it has to be the primary means of acquiring stuff. Eve Online, like so many other things, gets it right.
I'm currently playing FFXIV like many others, and even though much has went into the crafting system....you're basically only selling stuff to other crafters and gatherers, as the top end stuff is all dungeon-based.
I really don't like the way crafting is done in most games because it's the same old stuff over and over. Oh look, I got these components, I perform these actions, I get this result. Lather, rinse, repeat. And every crafter at the same level with the same components gets the same thing. Everyone makes identical gear. The stats are the same. The look is the same. The name is the same. Then it's just going around buying things and either buying gold or grinding gold for it. I find that whole system pointless and boring.
It would be different if a crafter could randomly make a better-than-average weapon, or a worse-than-average weapon, or a weapon with a flaw that nobody knows about until it breaks in the middle of combat. It would be different if a crafter could make truly unique looking weapons. As long as it remains cookie-cutter crafting where everything is the same for everyone, it doesn't strike me as being truly useful. It doesn't drive an economy, it's just a waste of time.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I think for the large part the industry has clung to D&D roots in making every player an adventurer. An adventurer can harvest raw material for money, refine them for even more, or get what they need from killing stuff, and exploring dungeons. But, being a stay at home crafter seems counter intuitive to the age old formula. While I think many players consider being crafting it's own class/caste. I don't think many developers do. I think to many developers it is job that a person of a class can have.
Of course there are plenty of exceptions. But, on the whole, while making a game I don't think the idea that crafting should be it's own game within the game occurs to many. Or they are too afraid to try it.
To answer your last question - "Before I ramble on too much, I'll leave it at this! What do YOU guys think about crafting and what can be done to improve it? I gave an example of game play interaction, but systems and such are there to consider as well! "
If a Fantasy MMO was created with an intricate crafting system where the possibilities and permutations seemed almost unlimited, and to master took practice,perseverance, experimentation and time, I would be as happy as a pig in mud.
I consider myself to be a MMO gaming entrepreneur. While I don't consider WoW's crafting system to be challenging or complicated, like many other systems in games it offers ways to manipulate to "get rich" if your prepared to learn and put in effort. Now I know, most people aren't interested in that as they would rather spend the majority of their time raiding or PvPing...and that's cool. Others, like me enjoy trying to influence markets, mass produce or offer rare crafted items for sale. In doing things like this in WoW I've made as a guesstimate in excess of 5 million gold (from just before BC release to mid Cata).
For me a crafting system should consist of many skillsets and branches to be learnt over time. Rather than make x amount of items to level without thought, there should be trial and error/experimentation.
The ability to experiment with measured quantities i.e. - What quantity of steel, iron and enchanted ore should you combine? How many times do I fold it? Reheat and cool it? How much magic can it be imbued with without jeopardizing it's physical strength? What angle should the blade be sharpened at for maximum weapon strength, weapon damage or minimum magic decay. You may gain in one attribute but lose in another.
Whats my skill level at with weapon sharpening, smelting/folding/tempering metals, imbuing, balancing the weapon, mixing metals etc. All these will affect the qualities of the previous paragraphs weapon attributes. If you discover an fantastic recipe that creates a powerful weapon (a % of the time, can't always make it perfectly(element of luck also)) do you share it with others?
What about swords, axes, glaives? Will I perfect one before I attempt to master another type of blade?
Maybe I want to be a builder of ships, carts for transporting goods, houses, fortress walls for defenses. An armorer, or a farmer with a patch of land developing crops or breeding animals for in game consumption.
This is just a snippet of what could be developed for the "right game". If other aspects of this game such as economy, politics, god worshipping, PvP, raiding, trade, forming/dissolving alliances, character depth, world immersion, environment, creatures, places, history, etc were just as evolved then I will have found my perfect MMO.
For me, a system incorporating features like this would be massive improvement on crafting.
The counter arguments are that the activity itself is rather boring even if it was worthwhile in the end. Not to mention the high you get from finding something shiny is much greater than looting/gathering materials. It has this "lottery feel" to it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I tend to see crafting, fundementally, as an atomic action: anywhere you have a task in a game that asks you to kill a rat, the game could alternatively have asked you to make a widgit.
The marketplace is an alternative version of a quest hub, just organized in a way that is more dynamic. I can imagine a game where the typical roles of crafting and hunting were reversed - where players bought and sold kill contracts to increase the stats of their lands while NPCs had yellow exclamation points over their heads asking players to go off and make 10 red widgits, then 10 green wigits then a bit blue widgit. The difference between economy and ecology is largely a matter of design choice and genre inertia.
And as a game progresses, you have a larger and larger number of skills and abilities that you bring to bear to a fight. I tend to enjoy crafting mechanics that similarly grow more complexity of infrastructure and supply chains. Instead of damage per second rising, think crafting points per day.
Best casual crafting .. Marvel Heroes.
- no need to craft tons of useless stuff to level
- use up all the unwanted stuff
- useful from day 1 (because it upgrades blues)
Perfectly as a distraction for a combat centric game.
FFXIV is a good example of crafting done right. I know a lot of "crafters" who insist that they make the best of everything for everybody. Otherwise its a useless system. I don't think that is fair to people who enjoy doing other things besides craft. I am not a raider, but I can see how crappy that would be to spend your whole time raiding just to get crafting drops. On the other end its just as disheartening when your best crafted efforts are of zero interest to the majority population. Whats even less appealing is some half ass crafting system that really only rewards the crafter. Like some arbitrary stat boost to help out with combat because you are a leatherworker. When it gets that bad, why even have crafting at all.
I think you need to have a balance. Crafters should be wanted for most of the gear in game but not all. You should also be able to craft other things besides gear. Potions, food, furnishings, enchantments, are all good ways to diversify a crafter's portfolio.
FF has done many things but crafting IS NOT one of them
Let me tell you why
There will be a time VERY soon where most of the players will be maxed out across the board, so whats the point in having crafting as a skill some basic economics
High demand > low production = stable / increasing value market
High production > low demand = Valueless market / no profit
As FF14 allow EVERY toon to craft EVERY item and FARM every mat, there is really no point in wasting time doing this. However, there are some easy changes that they could make
1 Allow random pattern Drops
2 Give players a certain pool of levels that cna be used across crafting. lets say 500 you could then either have 10 @ level 50 or 1 at level 100 the rest @ 40ish (you get point)
3 Allow some way of specilisation, So you could maybe get crits that no other crafter can, almost like 'skill points' that you earn depending on what you have crafted before, these can then be used to apply to a 'skill-tree' for crafting that is freeform
But basically I muself will be getting my basic crafting to level 20 and thats it (basicalyl to allow some other basics)
Before you fan boys start, yes i play and yes im a pre-subbed player, and already we are seeing prices come down and they will keep coming
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
Except for the fact that all the best DoL and DoH gear is crafted, all the best consumables are crafted, 85% of all housing items will be crafted, frontlines will have a dedicated crafting aspect, materia is gained through spirit bonded gear which is all crafted....
You can grow your own food, make your own clothes in real life so why arent those economies busted? Just because you can do everything doesn't mean you always will do everything. You are talking about the same gamers who grind fates til their eyes bleed. Not because they like it, but because it is the path of least resistance. You think they are magically going to change that attitude when they want a new pair of boots? You think they are going to travel the map getting all the hq mats, switch to each profession and hq every component then finally crank out thefinal product? Then craft hq gear for each materia slot, equip those, grind spirit bond to 100%, convert and meld into those boots? No. They are most of the time going to hop on the market and throw down the cash. done.
ok simple.
What can you provide me that i can't provide myself?
or how about this
why do people buy MMO games, instead of making themselves, in 99% of cases its because of lack of skills, and yet in FF14 we all the have the same skills so why buy somoene elses when you can make it
in terms of your reasoning and laziness this will be the case in some (im good point in this case {i am lazy and already said i wont be crafting}) but you also forget where are they getting the GIL from, given the lack of serious income , they will do this for one or two items, but then once 75% of population can craft the said expensive items they no longer become expensive and who will craft for a loss.
But also most markets are profitable because of the population requires more than can be crafted from general manufacters but a lot of players (certainly the ones i have spoken too) will get their own guildies / friends to craft the expensive for them.
If your example sits up can you tell me why prices are crumbling in some markets already? and yes i will accept that using only 1months historical data is a low point of proof
edit
apologies for serioisly bad english today been long work day with little sleep
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
Put an unlimited level cap on crafting, so that dedicated crafters will always be a step ahead of the people who only invest 10-30 minutes per day into it. If all the casuals are allowed to easily get to max level in crafting, it will be pointless because there is an infinite supply and no demand.
Remove the absurd nonsense of getting axes, platemail, necklaces and whatnot from dragons and other mobs that don't carry that kind of stuff around.
Crafting has to be a niche thing in the game. If you make it easy for every single player to get into it, they have no reason to go to real crafters for products and help. niche = unappealing to casuals = grindy as hell
I would hate that. That means I'd be tied to only one class and is exactly why FFXIV doesn't do that that I like it.
It doesn't really matter that you can theoretically master every crafting class. The majority will not spend that much time in lv and equipping every crafting class with top gear. Plus a lot of times even though I can make an item I don't bother with it. Instead of equipping the pickaxe, tp to some place, then switch to armorer, make an ingot, switch to LTH, make some hide and on and on. I just instantly buy it because time wasted doing that is better spent on items I can craft at the moment and make profit of thus allowing me to buy whatever else I need.
The problem with crafting in FFXIV mid-game is combat classes lv too fast and mainly through FATEs where you don't really need to be well equipped, just zerg it all with crap gear.
One major reason why prices are dropping is because SE removed about 367 billion gil at the beginning of the month. You cant sell stuff for as much when all that duped gil was flowing through the economy is now gone. It will continue to normalize over the next several months.
Also, you seem to be set on thinking this is a static game. New content, new gear, new recipes, new activities are going to be pumped into this game every three months. Each time will re-stimulate the economy because of spirit bond and materia slots needing to be filled.
And yeah its hard for me to take your points seriously when you yourself admit to not doing everything. Yet you are speaking as if everybody is going to do everything? But not you? lol come on.
also should add that SE already increased the amount of gil you get in dungeons so yes it is feasible now to buy items on a regular basis with money from dungeons.
Wow! I'm surprised at the amount of replies.
From reading everyone's comments, I've gathered as much -
1) Crafting needs to be economically IMPORTANT
2) Crafting needs to have a more-than-bare-bones SYSTEM
3) Crafting should have levels of exclusivity (specialization, overall skillpoints, break it up as you wish)
4) Crafting should be considered equally important as fighting.
Now these are all fair opinions that I agree with, about 80% of the way.
I 100% think that crafting needs to be economically important on ALL levels. Cheesily put, this builds strong relationships and eventually friendships between players (and sometimes less than friendly rivalries).
The crafting system itself should be accessible by anyone, easy enough to be understood so you can make your bronze widget. But at the same time as you progress it needs to become more complex, with deeper interactions so that when you are making your +10 Firelords Codpiece of Demon Bane, you don't just push a button and *ping* it's done. I'll take my previous two example titles -
FFXIV : easy-to-understand system at start, inter-class skill usage and difficult recipes allow for decision making and an interesting crafting experience.
EVE - relatively automatic processing that is instead complicated by processing and material logistics (ALSO another way to go at it, but NOT accessible early on without some guidance)
In this regard FFXIV is really nice. I am a 50 alchemist and 50 goldsmith, and a 46 cook and I can say that choosing which ability to use when is really fun.
In EVE I was a smuggler / supplier of boosters and small arms for faction warfare and 0.0 and while VERY fun, I can see how a new player wouldn't even know of the trade's existence.
I really like the idea that CU has on paper with crafting taking an active role in EVERYTHING, even the RvR battles, not just equipment. I can only hope that FFXIV takes a page or two from that book in upcoming expansions / updates.
As for exclusivity of crafting, I DON'T believe that you should limit crafts. Now Supply and Demand and ease of leveling is an entire discussion in and of itself, but I don't think we should all get gold stars and a hug from mommy either. Crafting needs know-how and dedication to make the highest things, but an average player should be able to make average goods of any kind. If you want to put in the dedication to make ALL of the highest things, why not? Just have it take an appropriate amount of time.
Also, what do you think of centralized marketplaces (AHs) versus decentralized marketplaces (Player Vendors, houses etc.) in terms of crafting goods. I know things are more difficult for buyers when no AHs are present, but for crafters would having many marketplaces (EVE), none at all (Ragnarok Online >.> UO) or something of a mix (FFXI, LotRO?) be the best way to nurture crafting markets and crafting in general.
There are many way to make it useful in design.
Like use it as gold sink tool.
Also crafting created less unwanted random drop if dungeon only drop material and no gears , so player have fair share and no one compete they sets before other do.
If you add player's skill in craft then you can slow down leveling speed of player and add hard mode by keep player's hand off high grade gears.
But i don't think it importance , CRAFTING maybe another way to enjoy game and take break from instance races or mobs grind but game still fine without it.
Crafting won't be meaningful or important in an MMO again until they stop letting everyone level every craft themselves relatively easily. When everyone can be self sufficient then what's the point? Exclusivity would be the word for it i suppose. Crafting should not be something you do on the side.
I say this as someone who hates crafting with a passion. I'm starting to think it's the execution and not the act itself though. Having meaningful crafting which is also rare could sway my opinion greatly in the future.
To make crafting relevant really wouldn't really take a whole lot. But unfortunately most players do not want them.
To start a game must have item destruction. If no items are leaving the economy then no need to replace them with new ones.
Crafted gear must be a better option to dropped gear and quest rewards or there is not reason to bother with crafting.
Nodes and resources need to be available before the gear they create are usable/needed. How often do you enter a new zone with all the new resources but by the time you grind all the materials and skill up your crafting you are already done with this zone and well beyond the level of the gear you can now craft. I though UO had the best resource gathering. X resource only spawning in Y zone because it is Z level zone for that level gear is such a stupid concept IMHO.
I like your post Venger but I do disagree with this part a little bit. The gathering itself should take enough time that you can't simply accomplish it while leveling. Gathering the mats for crafting needs to be a time consuming experience that not everyone wants to do in order to keep crafters as a rare commodity. A huge part of the problem with crafting in most games is that the parts you use in it are handed out like candy and easy to obtain so they become worthless. If the basic mats you use to craft are worthless than what you make is going to be worthless too because too many people will be making the same things.
nah .. just do what Marvel Heroes does. Use crafting to upgrade and make consumables instead of making gear.
That's not really what I meant. I agree resource gathering should take time. The hours upon hours I spent mining, logging, etc. in UO. So I'm with you that gathering shouldn't be quick and easy. I think gathering should be a profession also just like it was in UO. The problem with gathering in level based games is the resources in the level 30 zone are used to create the level 30 gear. So by the time you gather enough to craft your level 30 gear you've already out leveled that gear just with random battles getting to resource.
So that is my point. To help make crafting relevant you need to be able to make gear when you actually need the gear instead of crafting being basically for lower level alts.
If that is what you are into good for you. I wouldn't call that crafting.
You are not the one who decide what is crafting and what is not.
If devs call it crafting, and if industry articles call it crafting, i will use the term.
And yes, that is the best casual crafting system i have seen. No fuss, no spending time crafting unwanted stuff, and always useful.