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World of Warcraft: Rumor of the Day: Scaled Dungeons & Experience?

13

Comments

  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,779Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by deniter

    I don't like this..

    MMORPG is a type of game where you (typically) gain levels and improve your gear.

    Now they are suggesting a feature that makes your level and gear meaningless (even more than what it is now)?

    Not only that, but it would also destroy that little bit of an immersion there still is left in WoW (those pirates in Deadmines are the same no matter my level or gear?)

    I'm truly sorry for everyone who thinks this is a good idea. :(

    Well, I'm one of those you must feel truly sorry for then! :)

    As you play the current default mmorpg, you are basically painting yourself into a corner. Once you have completed playing a zone/dungeon, you have no need to go back. I want to play dungeons from previous levels without creating a new character or merely sweeping through it with no reward. IMHO one hitting elites many levels lower than me is not satisfying. /shrug

    As far as your level and gear being meaningless, It would still be scaled to your actual max level and any dungeons, raids, or pvp you are doing at your level would be adjusted to. You can still have fun with others at your max level which is normal. 

    To me this is an awesome idea and opens up hours and hours of gameplay areas that were currently useless. 

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member

    Leave it to Blizzard to miss the mark.

    Instead of scaling the player down, they should be scaling the content UP. By doing so they can make all content viable for everyone.

    One person going in? Scale to the player.

    Group? Scale to the group.

    Raid? Scale to the raid.

    100% of the content viable 100% of the time to everyone.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • RoguewizRoguewiz Lampasas, TXPosts: 614Member Uncommon

    Many games nowadays are opting for a "side-kick" or scaling down feature to allow higher level players to group with lower level players.  I like this feature.  I don't always want to level another character, grind the same boring ass content, just so I can group with my friend that was a little late starting the game.

    It's a good idea, and WoW needs it (even though it won't make me play the game again).

    Raquelis in various games
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  • deniterdeniter LappeenrantaPosts: 806Member Uncommon

    Thank you for your wall of text response, Homitu. :)

    I admit you certainly have a point when it comes to level scaling, and i also have to admit i've never played such a game that has done it.

    I think we all can agree there's something wrong in WoW's leveling game these days, and levels go by way too fast making dungeons and quests on lower levels pointless. Imho, scaled mobs don't help much on this matter.

    However, i do think scaling would help a lot if you could quest in the same zone on low level and again later on a higher level there would be new quests at the same area than before. A current quest design doesn't support this, but applied to vanilla/tbc era questing it would have been great to visit f.ex SFK once again for a higher level quest item and still have a challenging run.

    It's all about game design. Too often people say they want to level up faster because leveling is boring, and never question the design choices and ask why it's boring. Same is true for scaling; it's all about how it's designed.

    What is important to me is that the sense of progression remains in a game, and that i never feel i'm repeating stuff that i've already done. If that means leveling to max level takes 100 years, then so be it. Having a fast-forward to 90 and then doing the same dungeons and dailies for next several months is not fun at all, even if the mobs hit hard all the way to the top.

  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,172Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tekaelon
    I honestly don't think this would work for WoW. Also it got old on GW2. I don't like be scaled down after hitting max level. It makes the entire game world so generic, like you really never accomplish anything at all.

    it would add a challenge, PVE and PVP wise.

    But I guess that's not as fun as running in lowlevel zones as maxed template ganking lowbies at no risk or boosting friends in dungeons in God-mode.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • deniterdeniter LappeenrantaPosts: 806Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Amjoco
    Originally posted by deniter

    I don't like this..

    MMORPG is a type of game where you (typically) gain levels and improve your gear.

    Now they are suggesting a feature that makes your level and gear meaningless (even more than what it is now)?

    Not only that, but it would also destroy that little bit of an immersion there still is left in WoW (those pirates in Deadmines are the same no matter my level or gear?)

    I'm truly sorry for everyone who thinks this is a good idea. :(

    Well, I'm one of those you must feel truly sorry for then! :)

    As you play the current default mmorpg, you are basically painting yourself into a corner. Once you have completed playing a zone/dungeon, you have no need to go back. I want to play dungeons from previous levels without creating a new character or merely sweeping through it with no reward. IMHO one hitting elites many levels lower than me is not satisfying. /shrug

    As far as your level and gear being meaningless, It would still be scaled to your actual max level and any dungeons, raids, or pvp you are doing at your level would be adjusted to. You can still have fun with others at your max level which is normal. 

    To me this is an awesome idea and opens up hours and hours of gameplay areas that were currently useless. 

    That's exactly the problem in WoW nowdays; the content don't last as long as it used to. I gave up playing WoW just before Cataclysm. Before the cataclysmic incident you could happily play your toon for months and months and never run out of content. There was no need to go back to previous dungeons, because you had done them many times already, and you always had a new dungeon to run.

    Being a new player these days means you'll experience the whole 1-89 in few weeks if not days, then you're stuck with the same few dungeons, scenarios and dailies for several months. I don't envy them.

    This game has a brain tumour and its head aches. Blizzard is planning to give us painkillers to ease the pain, when the right treatment would be to operate and remove the tumour. I welcome the painkillers, but prefer the surgery.

  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,779Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by deniter
    Originally posted by Amjoco
    Originally posted by deniter

    I don't like this..

    MMORPG is a type of game where you (typically) gain levels and improve your gear.

    Now they are suggesting a feature that makes your level and gear meaningless (even more than what it is now)?

    Not only that, but it would also destroy that little bit of an immersion there still is left in WoW (those pirates in Deadmines are the same no matter my level or gear?)

    I'm truly sorry for everyone who thinks this is a good idea. :(

    Well, I'm one of those you must feel truly sorry for then! :)

    As you play the current default mmorpg, you are basically painting yourself into a corner. Once you have completed playing a zone/dungeon, you have no need to go back. I want to play dungeons from previous levels without creating a new character or merely sweeping through it with no reward. IMHO one hitting elites many levels lower than me is not satisfying. /shrug

    As far as your level and gear being meaningless, It would still be scaled to your actual max level and any dungeons, raids, or pvp you are doing at your level would be adjusted to. You can still have fun with others at your max level which is normal. 

    To me this is an awesome idea and opens up hours and hours of gameplay areas that were currently useless. 

    That's exactly the problem in WoW nowdays; the content don't last as long as it used to. I gave up playing WoW just before Cataclysm. Before the cataclysmic incident you could happily play your toon for months and months and never run out of content. There was no need to go back to previous dungeons, because you had done them many times already, and you always had a new dungeon to run.

    Being a new player these days means you'll experience the whole 1-89 in few weeks if not days, then you're stuck with the same few dungeons, scenarios and dailies for several months. I don't envy them.

    This game has a brain tumour and its head aches. Blizzard is planning to give us painkillers to ease the pain, when the right treatment would be to operate and remove the tumour. I welcome the painkillers, but prefer the surgery.

    I will have to agree with you on it becoming way to easy. I have said it before and I will say it again, if they would bring back some Vanilla WoW servers I would gladly pay  $6.99 a month or so to play. That was a game back then! :) But for now, I will play using a bandaid if they incorporate it! 

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • HomituHomitu Hometown, HIPosts: 2,030Member
    Originally posted by deniter

    Thank you for your wall of text response, Homitu. :)

    I admit you certainly have a point when it comes to level scaling, and i also have to admit i've never played such a game that has done it.

    I think we all can agree there's something wrong in WoW's leveling game these days, and levels go by way too fast making dungeons and quests on lower levels pointless. Imho, scaled mobs don't help much on this matter.

    However, i do think scaling would help a lot if you could quest in the same zone on low level and again later on a higher level there would be new quests at the same area than before. A current quest design doesn't support this, but applied to vanilla/tbc era questing it would have been great to visit f.ex SFK once again for a higher level quest item and still have a challenging run.

    It's all about game design. Too often people say they want to level up faster because leveling is boring, and never question the design choices and ask why it's boring. Same is true for scaling; it's all about how it's designed.

    What is important to me is that the sense of progression remains in a game, and that i never feel i'm repeating stuff that i've already done. If that means leveling to max level takes 100 years, then so be it. Having a fast-forward to 90 and then doing the same dungeons and dailies for next several months is not fun at all, even if the mobs hit hard all the way to the top.

    Thanks for reading it :)  I feel like my posts always turn into walls of text, and then they go unread because, well, who wants to read a wall of text?  Such is the nature of forums, I suppose.  Pithy one liner troll comments will get 8 pages of responses, while lengthy, decently thought-out posts don't even get read.  

    On the matter of levels being so fast in WoW that you out-level dungeons and other content, I think scaling dungeons actually does help with this.  If you quickly find yourself at level 28 when you still haven't run VC or SFK yet, you can still do them and they won't be stupid boring - and usually (as in most games with scaling systems) they'll give you exp and random drops according to your actual level.  

    Again, player level scaling isn't proposed for the open world yet (as far as we know), but, as it pertains to the issue of accidentally out-levleing content, it would only help there too.  With down-leveling, you can never 'out-level' content.  You could level as a human and go from Elwynn > Westfall > Redridge > Duskwood > STV and come out as a level 40 character, but then still head over to Ashenvale and play through that zone if you want.  Throughout each part of the zone, you get scaled down to a level slightly above the general level of the mobs in the area.  As far as rewards and exp are concerned, you earn them according to your actual level, with a slight penalty to exp due to the fact that you're going through content that should slightly easier for you.  The result is that you should net EXP at about the same pace.  You get, for example, 10% less exp for kills and quests, but you can kill mobs and complete quests about 10% faster.  (As opposed to killing mobs and completing quests 70% faster, as you would now as a level 40 in Ashenvale, while earning something like 95% less quest exp and zero mob exp.)  

    But like you said, there are several other aspects of the open world in WoW that would need to change before the world truly becomes playable and enjoyable by higher level characters.

    I also agree that leveling in itself should be a fun and long adventure in any MMO, where players engage in a plethora of game modes, including activities often reserved only for 'end game', throughout the leveling experience - but that's a separate wall of text post in itself :p

    Anyway, all this talk about the open world and the leveling experience is a little beside the point, as I think the target players of this dungeon scaling feature are the long time veterans who have been stuck doing nothing but the end game treadmill for years now because they've all had every class at max level for several expansions.  There's no more leveling to be done in WoW for many players.  It's about freshening classic content back up and giving it a purpose again, rather than just being tossed aside.  Similar things have been done a few times before.  Cataclysm made players want to return to the old world and check out all the zone changes.  There was that patch that added achievements for killing the race leaders of the enemy faction, which reinvigorated raids on enemy cities, which used to happen all the time in vanilla but hadn't for a few years at that point.  Then there's transmogrification, which added incentive to return to old content to collect gear sets for skins, even if redoing old raids was a boring faceroll snoozefest.  

    Lastly, there's the obvious one: all the remakes of classic dungeons.  Onyxia's Lair, ZG, and ZA were all brought back, SFK and Deadmines were given heroic modes.  It's obvious the developers care about all this old content, and lament the fact that it's basically become useless.  With scaling, all of that development time is saved.  In one fell swoop, they instantly re-release new versions of every old dungeon and raid for players to enjoy virtually forever.  Once that's done, they don't have to worry about remaking old dungeons (which surely does take considerable time) and can instead focus on even more new content.  I admittedly have no idea what WoW's update history has been over the past couple years though, so I have no idea whether they're pumping out content at a satisfying rate or if it feels sluggish compared to older days.  

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,145Member Uncommon
    "...ninety player entering a level 40-something dungeon with his item levels and health suddenly dropping to the same level as the dungeon. Are the days of soloing low-level dungeons over?" I realy HOPE so! But even more then this I would LOVE if that 10000hp tank entering normal 5man or scenario loses all that as well! I stopped to play wow end game because being sick of all that overpowered tanks or dps that just run through instances and many times jumping at some boss hoping all the rest will stay out behind closed doors. If there ilvl limit to enter on LOW side so should overpowered jerks be DOWNPOWERED.
  • mysticalunamysticaluna Scotia, NYPosts: 265Member Uncommon

    Well, I've had a lot of fun grinding low level zones on my max level for rare mounts that don't exist, but my idea would be Blizzard should up the drop rate to equal the challenge. It would be lame if mounts continued to be .025% drop rate in a level 90 raid zone.

    Please, if you are adding in scaling make the drop rate increase, max level 90 zones should have a high drop rate, and the lower the level of the zone the lower the drop rate on the companion pets and/or mounts... 

    It only makes sense, more challenge higher reward, so please up the nonsense drop rates on mounts. I'm still trying to get the Reins of the Headless Horseman here... 

  • mysticalunamysticaluna Scotia, NYPosts: 265Member Uncommon

    It better not be mandatory, however if this is a move to make all raids included in LFR I'd be all for it, my worry is you wouldn't be able to find level 90s interested in raiding all of these old zones, and you'd not longer be able to solo them anymore for mounts/hunter pets/companion pets. 

    So, would this be mandatory or optional like Chronomenter is on Everquest 2 (and it works great!).

    Would this allow all raids in the game to be put on LFR instead of only Dragon soul (level 85 Only) and Pandaria? I'm tired of doing pandaria raids, I don' t have a single level 85 character, and I have a lot of alts that would love to do some LFR raids. 

    Please let this be optional and a plan for adding more content to LFR. I wish we could queue for Flexibles, because I'm so bored of LFR, and I don't want to schedule in raid days like you'd have to with a raiding guild. I like the option of raiding when I personally feel like it, not sorry guys I don't feel like it tonight just please keep me in mind next week. 

    I can't believe that it has taken this long and you haven't increased the drop rate on Ashes of Al'ar or Fiery Warhorse yet, or added any new world event content whatsoever in the entire past year since Pandaria released, or really done anything to LFR for players below level 85. Not everyone wants to raid level 85 and 90 forever, I did Dragon Soul and loved it in Cataclysm, I've seen the raids in Pandaria, can you please make all of the older raids level 90 someday instead of scaling us down?? 

    It's free raid content if you simply scaled content up instead of down, give us cool mounts, cosmetics, and companion pets, give us content to do. Timeless isle wasn't enough content, and when I log in so much of the game looks dead, players don't even do the world bosses in Pandaria anymore, now that they all have equipment from Timeless Isle. 

    Nalak, Oondasta, Galleon, and Sha, can these world bosses get revamped and drop higher level equipment so that they are viable and keep the same mounts that almost no one has anyway on their loot table? It's so impossible to get these mounts, can we be allowed to spend extra coins instead of only 1 bonus roll? Either up the drop rate, or please let us just waste multiple bonus rolls for mounts... As in can mounts get a seperate bonus roll currency coin, that I can trade 300 lesser tokens of the elder for? 

    Why do you make mount so rare and unattainable that players don't even bother to try anymore? With the equipment being a joke and outdated, all anyone does is Timeless Isle, raids, and Ordos the new world boss with their legendary cloak friends. 

  • mysticalunamysticaluna Scotia, NYPosts: 265Member Uncommon

    Oh, please give us more complexity and talent trees for the 6 titans, back in Wrath I was so excited and disappointed on launch. 

    I hate the dumbed down Mists of Pandaria talent trees, I want more options, please give us a 2 handed shaman option and give us self enchants for 2 handers. 

    Can we get 6 new talent trees? That would be cool... I always loved Alexstrasza though, and would love Dragon Aspects like Ysera and her, but Everquest 2 is already doing Dragon AA's in Tears of Veeshan... 

    As far as Titans go, I guess it would be cool being like that healing nature titan in ulduar... 

  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon
    as long as we an still go solo low level dungeons I like the idea.  it would add a ton of content to do at max level.

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    This is what they should have done instead if trasmorg, let's face it one shot soloing instances and avoiding all boss features and events is hardly fun.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    As long as it is optional.

    Some folks love powering through old stuff, farming for transmog sets, mounts, etc. in old dungeons/raids.

     

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    This goes beyond all content as well, the days of 5 and recent becoming meaningless in 3 months are fixed. Crowd control back in, single target switching back in, tactics back in, no more 'charge and aoe' tactics that makes any other type of gameplay emotive and redundant. Skill remains a requirement, people get out of bad habits 'aoe everything, run through fire etc'

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    Bloody predictive text ^^ this affects all content including new stuff.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member

    Thinking Optional would work the best. there are times when you level a bunch for the sake of going back to solo a instance if your looking for a specific item or gear. if they force scale everything then it defeats the purpose and you are forced to get in a group with people when all you want is X pet or X Mount.

     

    Hell i used to run dungeons for the sake of getting gear to sell. usually made me a nice chunk of money.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    That's the point of mmorgs and rpg's for that matter- rewards should require effort and content tjat is badly out levelled is no longer meaningful content. Example : cthun, really fun encounter, great atmosphere and fight mechanics, satisfaction when you kill- however currently it's a broken mess as a result of scaling (apply to any fun fav boss of your choice).

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • RedMachine72RedMachine72 Turney, MOPosts: 86Member
    As long as the scaling is voluntary, such as going and turning off XP to stay at level, I'm all for it. Allows people to run with guildies that are leveling and need someone or just q-up for their favorite old world dungeon and raid runs.
  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Making it so that higher level players can't come back and see content they may have missed, seems counter productive.  But then this IS Ghostcrawler, so it wouldn't surprise me in the least. 
  • illutianillutian There, OHPosts: 217Member Uncommon

    So...I may not be able to run my lowbie alts through dungeons?

    ...yet another reason not to return.

     

    Unless it's optional, then I'm fine with it.

    But...why would they even bother. How many people are going to say "Ya, know that dungeon I couldn't get a group for back when I was lvl 40. Instead of running it solo at 90. I'm going to sit in the LFG queue [AGAIN] and look for a achievement group."

     

    "Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising everytime we fall." - Confucius

  • saurus123saurus123 nonePosts: 570Member Uncommon
    its perfect in GW2 but it will not work in WoW :)
  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,145Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by The1ceQueen
    I don't see what's wrong with how it is now. It's been like this for years where you could take a higher level in a dungeon with you to help run through for gear/gold/xp/achievements...why change it now? Makes no sense.

    Agree fully you. But I see as a big problem allowing hypergeared tank in normal instance ruining experience to all others.

  • DogblasterDogblaster PraguePosts: 491Member
    Originally posted by daltanious
    Originally posted by The1ceQueen
    I don't see what's wrong with how it is now. It's been like this for years where you could take a higher level in a dungeon with you to help run through for gear/gold/xp/achievements...why change it now? Makes no sense.

    Agree fully you. But I see as a big problem allowing hypergeared tank in normal instance ruining experience to all others.

    Because why should wow have 8 M players when it can have 3 M :) Same thing happend with talent trees, raids, etc. They do love to change things and usually to worse ;)

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