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Originally posted by Livnthedream Lol. So much butthurt. Whether he is a douchebag or not is immaterial, he is absolutely right. But hey guys, denigrate him and continue to believe that you magically know more.
Actually he is absolutely wrong.
Gamer's PC preference was not even about controllers.
It is about that fact that PC is an open platform that you can install whatever OS you want on it (or even run both) so that you don't have to own a dozen of consoles instead; and the fact that PC is moddable, whether it be hardware wise of the fact that you can only develop game editors or mods FROM PC.
Controllers doesn't even matter a to 10th of those things above.
That guy actually is very biased. He does realise that his staff develops those games USING PCs right?
Originally posted by Livnthedream Originally posted by ElRenmazuo *snip*
@everyone who keeps focusing on controller vs mouse:
THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE MARKET DOES NOT CARE IF THE MOUSE IS MORE ACCURATE. Clearly if they did then consoles would not be absolutely crushing the pc market. Similarly Tawess argument that pc's are better cause you can upgrade them, the market does not really care. Go take a look at the Steam Survey!
The only reason console gamers ARENT using mice and keyboards in FPS games and the like is because they add in absurd amounts of auto aim into those games. I dont give a shit what you say, controllers are only superior for fighting games.
How many RTS games do you see on consoles? Just about 0, why is that you ask. Because they are basically unplayable with a controller.
MMO's are the same thing, they have to basically ultra simplify the UI and the whole game just because of the ball and chain that is a controller.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
-------------------------"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
So much missinformation.
First off, the guy is wrong. He might be correct that consoles currently hold a larger market (within the gaming world), but his reasons are completely idiotic. It has nothing to do w/ user inputs. NONE.
Secondly, the reason PCs are behind has almost nothing to do w/ hardware. It's a combination of marketting, and PCs being an open platform. So here's the heart of the situation.
- Consoles have forever been the convenient (toy) gaming platform. They have always been meant for 1 thing. Playing games from the comfort of your living room. They are easy to use, cheap (without having to know much about what you're buying), and they are all the same. In a single word, consoles are accessible.
- However, it is no secret that nowadays developers are realizing that there is a downside to how consoles have been made. For one, they are falling so far behind what PCs can do, that their benefit has shrunk dramatically. As such, with this latest generation of consoles, you are seeing developers scrambling to add in all kinds of extra features in an attempt to make consoles more appealing. In short, they are trying to make consoles more like PCs.
- PCs have forever been about freedom. You can build them how you want. Put the hardware you want (including a controller if desired). You can load the software you want, and customize it how you want. This is an advantage consoles do not have. However, such freedom comes with a downside.
- Because PCs have so much flexibility, developers have to factor this in while optimizing their games. They have to optimize for dozens of potential setups, as opposed to only one or two. In other words, it's more expensive to develope for PC, if you want to appeal to a large chunk of the market. Otherwise you run into issues where people cannot run your game, because they do not have the same setup you tested the game under.
Furthermore PCs have a higher base knowledge requirement than consoles. You dont have to know about anything when owning a console. Just how to plug it in. PCs are a bit of a different story. There is a decent amount of knowledge required to fully utilize your PC machine. However, more and more people are meeting those base requirements as PCs are becoming more and more necessary.
*** To sum things up, what's going on is completely different from what 99% of you are saying. Neither PCs or consoles are the 'superior' way. They are merging. PC gaming is starting to become more like console gaming & visa versa. They are becoming one in the same.
*** Another thing to consider, though, is how consoles affect game design. In order to make games work on a console, many of them are forced to be dumbed down. This makes them more accessible, as well as allows them to be played with a controller. While this is nice, this is also a phenomena many gamers are starting to show resistance to. This isn't to say it will dissappear, but rather may not be the status quo ~20-30 years from now.
- All the guy in the video is doing is parroting the status quo, and insulting anyone who doesn't think like he does. The very embodiment of ignorance.
Originally posted by Gardavsshade Originally posted by H.Coelho Mr. Pach is a great guy. You can cry all you want, he is just right. And don't go arround thinking you know more than he does about game sales and the business side of games. He might not understand everything tech related nor our minds( he is a gamer himself, though). But he makes a living telling the big guys how the market will behave and he seems good at it. He understands the business side and the money side. And thats what this shit is about, money. Gaming is a fucking business and PC is a plataform that is not good for business. WE told them that. The reasons why are already explained on this thread. Sooo, you have 2 options. Adapt or keep crying. Consoles are the future for gaming, PC gaming will never die but it'll never be on top again.
Take you money and hit the road Jack. I as a Gamer do not give one Iota about whether or not someone makes a pile of dollars out of a MMO or not. If the game plays well, if it is fun and rewarding to Players, THAT is what matters to me as a Gamer.
Whether the Guy in the video knows what he talks about is another matter... but the way you tell it all that matters in the Universe is cold hard cash....YOU may believe that crap but as far as I am concerned you can keep your money religion to yourself.
Oh and btw, I am not some young Person who's never had a job... I am over 50 and have worked all my life and now am retired due to the fruit of my labors... but one thing I learned long ago...
We work to live, to pay the bills. We do not live to work.
Read it again, you will get it, maybe.
Im a gamer and i play games i like. The industry gives a shit about it... an individual means shit. In the end the majority opinion is what matters, and thats a fucking fact. The industry goes where the money goes. Thats not religion, thats capitalism. And you are old enough to get that.
Why every MMO is going F2P these days ?! MONEY !!
Why PC is far behind consoles these days ?! MONEY !!
Who gives them money ?! YOU !! (WE !)
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"~Lord George Gordon Byron
Well, I play both PC and console so I don't really care... but the major problem is that he is wrong about some things. For example, piracy being a PC issue only. Am I the only person who knew of people pirating Dreamcast, PSX/PS2 and XBox games? I kinda doubt it. Pirating will happen no matter how many security features you throw into the mix. And if they can't pirate and play on the original system, people will rip it, reverse-engineer it, and emulate it on a PC a year or two later.
Consoles have their own set of hurdles. Everyone knows that when generation 1 consoles get released they will probably break (red ring, overheating, etc.) in 6 months and systems will launch with 15-20 titles, most of which are simply built so that developers can get their feet wet. You probably won't be seeing the next TES installment on any launch days. You will see the crap titles though which will be $14.99 at Wal-Mart 6 months later while still stalking the Bethesda forums hoping for a nibble on a release date for a game that doesn't suck. PC gamers don't really have to deal with this. The PC gaming market doesn't have to wait on next-gen hardware... because it's up to the consumer to go out and get it, not wait on the console manufacturer to add another 4GB of RAM to their next system.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Originally posted by Inf666 Originally posted by Livnthedream Originally posted by Inf666 Since 2010 the revenue from PC games is higher than from consoles. Currently it is 11,6 bil $ vs 8,2 bil $ (I googled it).
Ignoring your conspiracy theory gibberish, got a link? Cause the only way that list makes sense is if you are including mobile apps and the like.
Here are three links I found by googling:
They all have different numbers, but what they have in common is that PC and console gaming revenues are close in value with PC gaming on the rise.
They include social network games......
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
You know whats funny about this. Ive been defending PC's from the "PC is dead, consoles are superior" crowd for a long time on here. Like 5+ years.
And you know what so deliciously ironic? Is consoles are not going to kill the PC, console themselves are becoming more PC-like.
Expect the next gen of consoles to be more modular and have more peripherals like a PC. Which Steam with their SteamBox has kinda already figured out, I just think the jumped the gun by about 5-7 years.
I mean the guy has blatant product placement its sad if anyone takes what he says as unbiased.
And what was up with his fucked up logic on the reason PC games are cheaper than consoles?
Was he really trying to say PC games are cheaper because people pirate them so much? Wouldnt a company want to raise the price to cover lost sales due to piracy...?
You know kinda like consoles do so they can cover the lost sales due to brick and mortar resellers (and to cover the cost of the consoles themselves)...
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
It is not solely about this guy from year 2000, but more about people responses. May be someone already posted similar thoughts. Then just disregard.
I am really confused by some responses here. You do know that all those Xboxes etc. are also PCs, right?
They have CPU, memory, hard drive etc. They are PCs with limited functionality, dedicated GPU and inability to be updated. You know that, you cannot make hardware of your box better. You cannot replace processor by faster one. You cannot increase memory. You cannot at last put a more powerful GPU in it. You just need to wait for next generation box. Every box become outdated in a few month after it is announced. Because whatever technological advantage is implemented in it, better one will be available for computer design (including more powerful GPU) quite soon. Yes, same industry makes parts for computers and say Xboxes. For example, processor for Xbox One was “co-designed” by AMD.
I really don’t like to play games with so-so resolution all the time. Yes, sure you can play with 1080p on TV. But even though it will display 1920×1080 pixels, every one who tried to compare 1080p and 1920x1080 on monitor knows the difference. Because of a few differences in basic idea, 1080p will look blurrish comparing to crisp native 1920×1080. And some of us are playing our games at 2560x1600.
But, forget about resolution. Let’s talk about some people favorite subject, game controller.
Do you know that no, and I am saying NO, important and required fast response job was ever entrusted to one finger! Imagine a car, controlled by finger. Imagine this finger is twitching! Arms spatial coordination enormously more precise than temporal precisions (based on speed of tapping which is ~5taps/sec at max) of fingers. There is no easy way however to show you some proofs in numbers here.
There is no doubt nevertheless that accuracy of mouse-arm control much superior to the one of game pad-finger.
Than why those Xboxes, gamepads etc. even exist? Very simple. The idea was to create a narrowly dedicated CHEAP device, which would satisfy CASUAL player. One good Graphic card cost more than whole Xbox or other console, etc.
Is anything deserves special preference here? As very often happens in similar situation, everything finds it dedicated adorer.
I dont begrudge people getting a console to serve their entertainment needs.
I just know it wont cover mine. They might fit in better in a living room. But basicly they are bargain built computer put in a nice looking shell, with a simple operating system and a basic, ergonomic control interface.
I wouldnt be able to work on a console, a tablet or phone. I'd need a desk top computer for that.. (im not a big fan of "gaming" laptops either.) At the same time, my computer covers all the stuff a console can do.
Like many others, I have used controllers in the past before the PCs were any good for gaming. And when I started playing first person shooters we didnt use the mouse. Also I played with the arrow keys before switching to WASD for moving. So Im not scared of switching controls if it makes sense. Hell I even tried ESDF for a while since F is easier to find without looking, but it was too inconvenient for my pinky and thumb.
I have had various controllers for my PCs, mostly flight sticks. Though I havent found a game that I would want to play with something like an Xbox controller, assuming I would want to play the game in the first place. I do see their uses for sports games and figting games. Possibly they are better for platformers.. I havent played those since the Amiga. But I dont play any of those kinds of games.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I don't know where you guys get your facts, but PC gaming software sales has been more than Console/Handheld software sales since like 2004. You really have to nitpick the numbers to get Console/Handheld sales above PC sales. Such as including hardware purchases on Console/Handheld and not on PC. Excluding subscription based games on the PC. Then you are in the realm of Console/Handheld having higher sales.
When we think in the realm of hardcore gaming than the issue is a bit more even in software sales. This is excluding the facebook games and mobile games that compose a major element of sales. When those are eliminated the majority of revenue is from The Sims, Pokémon, and MMO revenue.
It still baffles me why developers ignore the PC sector and allow a small portion of developers to collect all the revenue like Bethesda, Blizzard, and Nexon. Maybe they listen to this idiot who really likes his controller over a mouse and keyboard in a shooter. Should really talk about using the motion controllers for aiming which is a better experience than on the PC.
Originally posted by azzamasin The day that a Controller is required to play a game is the day I give up gaming as a hobby. Keyboard and Mouse elitist here and unashamed to admit it!
I dont think I'd call myself an elitist.
I do know PC gaming has suffered, in term of pushing the boundries of what it can do because of this cross platforming. Its suffered in terms of being held back because of video graphics limitation, storage limitations, memory limitations, interface limitations, resolution limitations, CPU limitations, lack of dual screen support limitations.
Now to give them credit a lot of developers are bumping up the display resolutions for the PC releases of games, and improved textures and so on.
But in the end we as PC users have had to accept less than what our machines are capable of because of the limitations of consoles. And no matter how the consoliers try to spin it, its bullshit.
Originally posted by Hokie Originally posted by azzamasin The day that a Controller is required to play a game is the day I give up gaming as a hobby. Keyboard and Mouse elitist here and unashamed to admit it!
Totally agree, even now i wonder if we'll see any real advances in games graphics, particularly when you consider that the next generation consoles, the most powerful of which is the upcoming PS4, is still only comparable to a 'current' mid range PC. Barring MMO's i don't see any developers out there that are going to commit to making a game, that can't be run on at least a PS4, for the next decade, if console development cycles are anything to go by, which considering that in the next 2 or 3 years these next generation consoles are going to be museum pieces, their already outdated hardware wise after all, is more than a little disturbing, its almost like, why bother upgrading my GPU or CPU anymore, if can't get a game that will make use of it?
As for this pachter guy, if he thinks that the only thing holding people back from using a PC on a TV is the controller, then he is totally deluded, or hasnt heard of wireless mouse/keyboards, not to mention that most PC gamers tend to have usb gamepads/flightsticks etc.
Originally posted by Fusion Originally posted by Swedish_Chef Originally posted by Livnthedream Lol. So much butthurt. Whether he is a douchebag or not is immaterial, he is absolutely right. But hey guys, denigrate him and continue to believe that you magically know more.
Furthermore controllers are becoming more precise with every iteration, and they will someday match the speed and precision of a mouse.
Never, A thumb on a knob will never be as precise as a mouse period.
Have you seen the Steambox controller? Touchpad. No knobs anywhere on the thing. Obviously still not as precise as a mouse, but to deny that controller tech will catch up to mice eventually is incredibly short sighted.
Originally posted by goldtoof Pc games arent cheaper than console games due to piracy. They are cheaper because the console manufacturers take a 20% cut on all console games.
i think is the licence fee's, and both Sony and Microsoft charge for releasing a game on their consoles, as nobody can charge a licence fee for the PC, the price is less, although lately there has been a certain amount of 'price creep' in PC games.
Originally posted by Swedish_Chef Originally posted by Fusion Originally posted by Swedish_Chef Originally posted by Livnthedream Lol. So much butthurt. Whether he is a douchebag or not is immaterial, he is absolutely right. But hey guys, denigrate him and continue to believe that you magically know more.
the Steambox controller is still a bit iffy, its still nowhere near as accurate/fast as a mouse/keyboard combo, and it also suffers from the whole 'accuracy' thing when it comes to fine detail, its probably a step in the right direction, but still a long way short of being a replacement.
It also suffers from the 'intuitive' useage factor that you get with gamepads, where you have to 'learn' how to use it effectively, which the mouse/keyboard is far more intuitive/natural to use.
Really don't get the hate going on because from a business standpoint he is correct. PC is a very small amount of the video game market watch any analyst of the market worth anything and he will say the same thing. If it wasn't for dubiously counting social media and casual gamers (ie: hidden object, candy crush etc) it would be less than 10 percent in my opinion. If we ignore my opinion and were to do console comparisons while many are able to play pc games most don't see the need and honestly if it weren't for MMORPGS I honestly would spend so little time on pc gaming and besides those games which are tailored to pc most people I know would too. There is nothing incorrect really about his statements though as said before he said some kind of awkward tech terms for what he meant by a box and also that steam is doing pretty much what he asserts. PC Gaming has the following problems some were suggested by Mr. pachter others are just my own observations:
1. Keyboard and mouse reliance- this isn't such a problem in games that need it though I think you're going to see even those games converting their gameplay to elements which could support reduced number of buttons and play well with controllers. MMORPGs like DC Universe Online (which having a great combat system for the genre but really limited appeal and content) have such a big audience because they can be played with a controller. As an example I honestly think even despite the problems of target audience and such that if say WoW was to streamline their gameplay and tailor the game to a console that it would be right up there with call of duty.
I see everyone saying well duh just use a wireless keyboard and mouse. I'm sorry but that is clunky and doesn't work there is no way that I'm going to be comfortable sitting down on my couch using a keyboard and mouse. The reason I see that most companies really don't put in work to fully integrate the controls so that controllers are responsive is because they realize what it will do. It'll effectively marginalize the pc market. People will stop thinking about pc games and will just stick to consoles because the experience will be too much the same to justify having over priced pc rigs for experiences that are on-par with consoles.
2. Graphics is a minor issue to most gamers - I don't even see why people consider this such a bragging point in an era where the wii was initially outselling the xbox 360 and ps3. Gamers don't sit there and compute how effective their graphics cards are and judge a game based solely on graphical ability. A game is not boiled down to one or two components but how the components mesh together to form a whole. That is why games like super smash brothers are so successful the components come together to form a cohesive unit, if we look at gameplay (I know I'm going to get flack for this) it was limited, it wasn't crysis 3 in the graphics department either.
3. Piracy - Piracy is a huge problem on the pc and there is a few lines of thought that don't make sense.
A) There is piracy on other systems too.
Yes but its ten times easier on a pc. Hell I have a friend who told me of a program he has that can bypass the chip in cd drives that stop you from ripping commercial cds, cracks, and makes the game function as a legit copy. That is not available without significant knowledge and technical expertise on consoles so the barrier of entry is much less. If we look at pc pirating vs console I think you'll find the percentage of console pirating to be insanely small.
if they want us to purchase their games they should make them worthy of being purchased. Other explanations: Corporate Greed, etc
I'll use a personal example and then I'll get into some more fact driven commentary. So I've done alot of game developing on the side doing small parts of projects and some things happened in my life so I figured well there is an idea that I have that is cost effective to make and I'd just really like to do. So I'm creating a game from scratch just as a programmer. I've found ways to make a game and I'm really surprised as to the quality of the game considering I'm a one man team and my lack of budget. I did some number crushing for the business side of the project and found some startling things using resources from all around the web.
I stand to lose more than I could gain from releasing on the pc. Now if I had the funding I'd turn around and just release it on ps3 and possibly xbox 360 but its an upfront vs total cost type of thing. Every game that I looked that have talked about pirating in the realm of pc that had other releases on systems are saying the same thing. So I'm releasing on pc hopefully there will be enough interest that I can down the road release it on consoles. Furthermore alot of the games actually being pirated are considered high quality games.
But to put this habit in proper perspective lets look at it how the people who commonly pirate look at it (though there is alot of examples where people will freely admit them being one in the same ) I recently went to the grocery store and got some food. I was looking at a steak I would love to get great sale on ribeye steak but I didn't have the money so I walked by it. The pirate's answer is to put it in their coat and steal it. Ribeye is a great cut of steak but such a small amount of steak for the price. Now lets take it and make it a common bottom round London broil if I saw the price tag I would not buy it I wouldn't even think about it. In effect the point is if you're thinking bout getting it shows it holds some value to you so wait for it to go on sale or just buy it the excuse doesn't fly about price point. So as to avoid the ethical debate I'll clarify the point pirating is extremely detrimental to independents and considering how corporations are they will just avoid the platform. Good example being unreal 4 engine which was designed primarily for consoles. So I can hear the question now "why does it matter?" Well let me explain what it'll do to the two groups that will keep pc alive.
So to give you a sense of scope of how these appears to other players I'll use a personal example. I don't get people who fly model airplanes I don't get it and I'm sure those people who enjoy the hobby don't understand my love for pen and paper rpgs. Now a guy at my job used to love them he pretty much lived and breathed this hobby so when a new employee came in that also loved the hobby he was in heaven. The problem that they ran into is how the small sliver of the pc market is with the regular video game market.
Scott who as I said before lived and breathed that hobby would go up to Dwayne and talk about the hobby instantly just pumping out facts and numbers that were inconsequential to Dwayne. Dwayne loved flying them around but doesn't really care about the mechanical specifications, he enjoys flying them for the experience. Scott did it for the experience but other reasons which extended Dwayne's belief that he pursued it as a hobby and Scott's investment to be more along the terms of an obsession. Scott would put in thousands of dollars into these toy model planes and would hurriedly dash over to Dwayne to tell him all about it and it alienated the two parties more and more from each other because of these differences. Now whether you mean to or not or whether you fit the obsessive stereotype that I detailed above all the other gamers are Dwayne and you are Scott.
Which brings us to a realization that I think I could best display by going back to my love of pen and paper rpgs. I love pen and paper rpgs (mostly white wolf which made me excited for WoD online but I digress) but I understand that I am in a minority and that companies will cater to the tastes of the masses.So while I personally think D&D kind of sucks I understand that it is what sells so most companies will provide similar products to tap into that audience. in effect those dismissing the arguments made on that show are just putting their fingers in their ears screaming la-la-la pach whether you think hes right or wrong is expressing the sentiments that people at the big name companies and those from a business point of view feel about pc. Whether you want to admit it or not you're simply not ready for big business to leave this platform.
Originally posted by Phry Originally posted by Swedish_Chef Originally posted by Fusion Originally posted by Swedish_Chef Originally posted by Livnthedream Lol. So much butthurt. Whether he is a douchebag or not is immaterial, he is absolutely right. But hey guys, denigrate him and continue to believe that you magically know more.
Someone should try to make a trackball controller. Very few people use track balls for PC gaming, but they are as accurate as a mouse for most things.. Though for big moves it might lose a little.. I havent used one in years. Since there is so little choice when looking for what to buy.