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The typical beta process has become increasingly frustrating.

gamesrfungamesrfun Red Deer, ABPosts: 127Member

I know games need to be tested by real players.  I understand that testing solely in-house is an outdated model.

But it is becoming increasingly frustrating that these closed betas, many of which have thousands if not tens of thousands of players, are leading to HUGE advantages for the beta players by the time the game is released.  

Part of the fun of the release of a game is playing with new people who are relatively clueless.  A few beta and alpha testers are obviously okay, but the split is becoming a detraction.

For example:  Hearthstone.  How many people are going to have a 6 month head start with near full collections of cards?  

The increase of Kickstarter projects means that many opportunities to try a game out and to get that preferred advantage require a person to pay a significant sum beyond the cost of the game itself.  

I'm not whining about it.  I just don't like it, and I was curious if I was in the minority or the majority here.

 

 

Comments

  • AtlysAtlys Summerville, SCPosts: 69Member

    I don't really mind so much. When I play a game, I'm not worried about whether or not someone has more experience than me or if someone is better or stronger than me. As long as I'm having fun, none of that matters.

     

    On the eternal quest for that one perfect MMO.

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member

    The same old testers, we get the same old game, played the same old way.  with the same old problems.

    The patterns and community standards are set during this time as well.

     

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • HelleriHelleri Felton, CAPosts: 927Member Uncommon

    OP, I get that you do not realize this (or more likely by the last comment in post #1 are in denial about it)...But, you are whining about it. Your presenting something you don't like, which can have another side to it as an issue, not providing a possible solution, and looking for empathy = Whining/ranting.

     

    Also this is not true of every game. There are plenty of games in development, wherein, with successive betas players must start anew (archeage would be an example). And it's easily arguable that for the games in which beta players do have a leg up on new players when the game goes full release, that they earned that advantage by being there from the start and being a big part of why the game was able to go full release as soon as it did.

     

    It won't help to be sore over not getting in on beta's you wanted to be part of. I have been doing more beta testing then actual playing in the last few years. And, i can say they earn their status' namesake. They are full of issues and that advantage that we 'may' get in the end...We had it harder getting there then any one coming into it at full release will.

    image

  • gamesrfungamesrfun Red Deer, ABPosts: 127Member
    Originally posted by Helleri

    OP, I get that you do not realize this (or more likely by the last comment in post #1 are in denial about it)...But, you are whining about it. Your presenting something you don't like, which can have another side to it as an issue, not providing a possible solution, and looking for empathy = Whining/ranting.

     

    Also this is not true of every game. There are plenty of games in development, wherein, with successive betas players must start anew (archeage would be an example). And it's easily arguable that for the games in which beta players do have a leg up on new players when the game goes full release, that they earned that advantage by being there from the start and being a big part of why the game was able to go full release as soon as it did.

     

    It won't help to be sore over not getting in on beta's you wanted to be part of. I have been doing more beta testing then actual playing in the last few years. And, i can say they earn their status' namesake. They are full of issues and that advantage that we 'may' get in the end...We had it harder getting there then any one coming into it at full release will.

    Well that opens up another can of worms.  

    First point:  You obviously conflate disagreeing with something as whining about something.  Of course, using your specific logic, anyone who disagrees with something is whining.  I have a low tolerance for stupidity, and I would refer to common sense when articulating the difference between whining and stating an objection.

    Second point:  I am not a game developer and I am not involved in the industry.  Of course I don't have a solution for it.  At the most I can voice my opinion with my personal purchases, which in the grand scheme of things means almost nothing.  I didn't know that was the criterion for delineating a whine from something else.

    Third point:  I was speaking of trends, not asking for counterexamples.   

    Fourth point:  Earning the advantage by having the fortune of being in the beta is entirely missing the point.  Comprehension please.

    Fifth point:  I am not sore.   You probably assume that I'm just ranting about Hearthstone.  I didn't even know about the game until it was already in Beta.  But I did find it interesting, until I realized that the game was not going to wipe its beta players who had collected and amassed entire collections.  

    I dislike people like you.  Please don't respond to another one of my posts again unless you can learn to answer the question asked.

    Thanks!

     

  • maxima29maxima29 iowa, IAPosts: 203Member

    The problem is today's gamers don't use betas they way they are ment to be used.  Today's gamers use them as a free trail or a way to get ahead as you say.  Most games erase an progress made in beta.  Betas are supposed to be there to help developers find issues and TEST their game.  I was recently in a beta for an expansion on a current game the entire chat was nothing but people crying and whining that this was broke or this isn't working properly or worse they didn't like a specific change the game was making.  

     

    These are the same ones once a game is released who will bash it and claim they saw this in beta.  We'll instead of writing tickets these people are too worried about crying in chat or getting to the highest level as fast as possible and not participating in a beta the way a beta was ment to be used for.

  • NildenNilden null, NBPosts: 1,284Member Uncommon

    I don't feel like being in beta gives someone that much of an advantage when most MMOs are so shallow and easy anyway. I do have an issue with beta being used as a marketing ploy (paid beta) rather than focusing on actual testing or fixing. If we had 2 week or longer open betas (like WoW) for some of these MMOs you would have testers in full raid gear who "beat the game" unless they lower the level cap for testing.

    There's also the perpetual beta where companies are taking money and have a cash shop and just use beta as a cover excuse when the game for all technical purposes should be considered release.

    Much like the term MMORPG that has become an umbrella term with little meaning encompassing anything with players online beta means very little compared to what it used to.

    How to post links.

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

  • VahraneVahrane Alpharetta, GAPosts: 375Member

        I'm in the HS beta, and would have to agree that, in this instance, there is a definite advantage to be gained by getting into closed beta. Without a doubt, the Hearthstone beta is a marketing beta meant to hype the community at large rather than exhaustively test for legitimate bugs. Even prior to the last HS patch the game was extremely well polished, easily far enough along to be considered a stable, release worthy product. During my play sessions I have yet to encounter, nor have I heard of any, game breaking bugs.

        In the past two days of semi-casual play I was able to earn almost 500 in game gold which can be redeemed for 5 in game packs or arena entry 3+ times. While this small amount of gold earned doesn't give me a staggering advantage, especially since some of it was earned through non repeatable quests that everyone will have access to at launch, the gold gained solely from winning matches or completing daily quests will eventually confer a noticeable advantage over that of a beginning player.

      

  • NildenNilden null, NBPosts: 1,284Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maxima29

    The problem is today's gamers don't use betas they way they are ment to be used. 

    Blaming the players is a copout scapegoat move. The company running the beta has fun control over it. Sometimes with open beta you just want people there to stress test the servers, sometimes you want people to give feedback and do testing. There are many ways (ingame surveys, manditory beta forums, only enabling features you want tested) that the company is completely in control of the beta process.

    How to post links.

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

  • Mr.KujoMr.Kujo SwinoujsciePosts: 383Member
    There is no learning curve or complex strategies in mmorpg's, those games are as basic as it gets. I don't see any HUGE advantages for players that start sooner. They will learn to get faster to the end, which makes no difference for other players.

    If you want to have equal speed, beta players put all their knowledge on wiki's so you can catch up. If you do not care about speed and want to discover every aspect of the game on your own... well, then you shouldn't care about other people getting ahead of you. I don't see how it influences your gameplay. How do those people that have more experience in game make your gameplay worse? Since you dislike it.

    Putting that aside, there is no real solution other than betas to test a game. You have massive multiplayer game, the only way to test it is by allowing massive amount of players to test it. Closed betas are the way to go, since open betas create great confusion from players that don't realize it is not final product yet, and by agreeing to play the game they actually agree to test it, and have no rights to complain.

    Another thing is... I don't see why there shouldn't be any advantage for players who get to play the game earlier. I mean, everyone can be a beta player. If they put little more effort than you, they get into beta and play for many hours in it, why take away advantages from them?

  • maxima29maxima29 iowa, IAPosts: 203Member
    Originally posted by nilden
    Originally posted by maxima29

    The problem is today's gamers don't use betas they way they are ment to be used. 

    Blaming the players is a copout scapegoat move. The company running the beta has fun control over it. Sometimes with open beta you just want people there to stress test the servers, sometimes you want people to give feedback and do testing. There are many ways (ingame surveys, manditory beta forums, only enabling features you want tested) that the company is completely in control of the beta process.

    Yes I agree but the players are the ones who are abusing it (from my personal experience).  The developers put all those tools in their game to help find bugs issues and broken content.  But when players only want to "try" the game and see what's new instead of reporting issues cause that may slow their progress the issue falls on the gamers.  

     

    You can call it what you want but if you have been in any beta lately you can't deny most players are just there for the free trial.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONPosts: 2,499Member Uncommon

    Generally speaking, there is no specific advantage. Based on your definition of "beta" the users data is carried forward to launch. In the case of an "Open Beta" this might be the case. Open Beta is a term that's become synonymous with "We're open, but don't complain if things are wrong." It's the soft launch of a product. They'll take your money, therefore all your data should be carried over to regular launch. Key term here is "Open" These are generally open to all who want to step in, so no distinct advantage. 

     

    The other is "Closed Beta". Closed Betas are typically invite-only. This is where most of the bug bashing takes place and useful user test data is collected. During closed betas your information can be wiped at any time. They will actually have period wipes, as well as a wipe going from closed to open beta. Again, no distinct advantage, other than people getting to know the game before you. However, that's a relatively small crowd of really lucky peeps. 

     

    I don't see where the advantage is, really. If you want to get into an open beta, then just sign up. You'll have the same advantages as anyone else. 

     

    In the case of something like Hearthstone, I'd be much less concerned about someone who had a 3-month primer of the game and much more concerned about the guy who is going to drop $1000 on card packs when the game releases. Which do you think is going to pwn you?

    Crazkanuk

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  • HelleriHelleri Felton, CAPosts: 927Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gamesrfun
    Originally posted by Helleri

    OP, I get that you do not realize this (or more likely by the last comment in post #1 are in denial about it)...But, you are whining about it. Your presenting something you don't like, which can have another side to it as an issue, not providing a possible solution, and looking for empathy = Whining/ranting.

     

    Also this is not true of every game. There are plenty of games in development, wherein, with successive betas players must start anew (archeage would be an example). And it's easily arguable that for the games in which beta players do have a leg up on new players when the game goes full release, that they earned that advantage by being there from the start and being a big part of why the game was able to go full release as soon as it did.

     

    It won't help to be sore over not getting in on beta's you wanted to be part of. I have been doing more beta testing then actual playing in the last few years. And, i can say they earn their status' namesake. They are full of issues and that advantage that we 'may' get in the end...We had it harder getting there then any one coming into it at full release will.

    Well that opens up another can of worms.  

    First point:  You obviously conflate disagreeing with something as whining about something.  Of course, using your specific logic, anyone who disagrees with something is whining.  I have a low tolerance for stupidity, and I would refer to common sense when articulating the difference between whining and stating an objection.

    Second point:  I am not a game developer and I am not involved in the industry.  Of course I don't have a solution for it.  At the most I can voice my opinion with my personal purchases, which in the grand scheme of things means almost nothing.  I didn't know that was the criterion for delineating a whine from something else.

    Third point:  I was speaking of trends, not asking for counterexamples.   

    Fourth point:  Earning the advantage by having the fortune of being in the beta is entirely missing the point.  Comprehension please.

    Fifth point:  I am not sore.   You probably assume that I'm just ranting about Hearthstone.  I didn't even know about the game until it was already in Beta.  But I did find it interesting, until I realized that the game was not going to wipe its beta players who had collected and amassed entire collections.  

    I dislike people like you.  Please don't respond to another one of my posts again unless you can learn to answer the question asked.

    Thanks!

     

    On your first point...You have to make a point for it to be a first point. I did not conflate whining with disagreement. I said you are talking about not whining. And, I think you are. And, I feel my reasons are valid because again, You give an argument that is lecturing not exploring. You give no possible solutions you can see to what you view to be as an issue. You seek for others to empathize with your stance (as apposed to inviting people to discuss it to see if it is a good stance or not).

     

    Also you didn't give an objection. There has to be something previous to your argument that your argument both pertains to and points to for it to qualify as an objection. You gave an argument. A once sided argument that only left room for people to agree with you or be wrong by default.

     

    As for your second point. There are a lot more players then there are developers. And, Crowd funding proves that what we have to say amounts to something. And, I never said that not trying to give a solution was the criterion for whining. Just that it is a part of why your op is a rant.

     

    And in regards to your third point. It doesn't really matter what you are asking for. Just because you didn't post it as something open for discussion does not mean it won't get actually discussed.

     

    With your fourth point...your just back peddling. The bulk of your post conveys that (in your opinion) full releases are hard on people who were not in beta because beta players have an advantage. I didn't miss the point of your OP. Your trying to deny that is what it was about when it is obvious that it was about that.

     

    And as for you're fifth point. I still think you are. Maybe not with hearthstone in specific. And, I didn't say that either. I generalized because it seems like your upset about missing out on betas in general.

     

    And, finally you put it out there. You don't get to pick and choose who responds to what in what manner. I don't care if you like me. And, I don't see how that is even something to bring up. If you post here and I disagree with you I will say so, and I will say why. And, you don't have a say in that because you submit yourself to a public forum in posting. You don't get to show someone the door because they are not the biggest fan of what you have to say.

    image

  • MischiefMischief Salem, ORPosts: 81Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gamesrfun
    Originally posted by Helleri

    OP, I get that you do not realize this (or more likely by the last comment in post #1 are in denial about it)...But, you are whining about it. Your presenting something you don't like, which can have another side to it as an issue, not providing a possible solution, and looking for empathy = Whining/ranting.

    First point:  You obviously conflate disagreeing with something as whining about something.  Of course, using your specific logic, anyone who disagrees with something is whining.  I have a low tolerance for stupidity, and I would refer to common sense when articulating the difference between whining and stating an objection.

     

    You are either intentionally missing his point or you are being stupid yourself...  He said you are whining about it because you were complaining about something without providing a possible solution to the problem in the attempt to gain empathy.  Then you manipulated his statement to say anyone that  disagrees with something is a whiner.  That isn't what he said

  • Yyrkoon_PoMYyrkoon_PoM Reseda, CAPosts: 150Member
    Originally posted by gamesrfun

    I know games need to be tested by real players.  I understand that testing solely in-house is an outdated model.

    But it is becoming increasingly frustrating that these closed betas, many of which have thousands if not tens of thousands of players, are leading to HUGE advantages for the beta players by the time the game is released.  

    Part of the fun of the release of a game is playing with new people who are relatively clueless.  A few beta and alpha testers are obviously okay, but the split is becoming a detraction.

    For example:  Hearthstone.  How many people are going to have a 6 month head start with near full collections of cards?  

    The increase of Kickstarter projects means that many opportunities to try a game out and to get that preferred advantage require a person to pay a significant sum beyond the cost of the game itself.  

    I'm not whining about it.  I just don't like it, and I was curious if I was in the minority or the majority here.

     

     

    I am not so sure about games needing to be tested by "Real Players".  Mostly the closed/open betas are a crapshoot in that the vast majority of people are not actually doing any real testing outside of checking things out for when the game goes live.  One big plus to an open/closed beta is the exposure of the software to a large amount of hardware/software configurations, which is why most places want you to submit a DxDiag either at registration time or when submitting a bug.  Quite a few game companies now require their QA/QC people to be gamers with high end characters in their game or in a competitors game. It is not that In-House testing is an outdated model, but that inviting outsiders into testing is economically more efficient in that you get thousands of times the ad-hoc hours of testing for $0.00 (or in some cases the gamer pays the company).

     

    I do agree with you regarding the advantage that can be gained by being in a beta (a much greater advantage if there is no account purge), but it is the price of business today.

     

    I am not sold yet on Kickstarter MMOs so no idea how these will turn out come beta time.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    On the flip side, the beta testers are the one who is doing all the work learning the game where you can just get by watching their youtube video.

    And no one is preventing you from learning the game yourself if that is what you desire.

    I don't understand this obsession with "advantage". Unless you play a game starting from day 1, others will know more about the game then you do anyway.

     

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    I rarely play an mmorpg within the first year of release so I'm used to being far "behind" the crowd.  It's never made much of a difference to me.  In a PvE game it doesn't matter since it's not a competition.  In a PvP game I'll lose a lot in the beginning and slowly improve.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • ghost047ghost047 montreal, QCPosts: 603Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gamesrfun

     many of which have thousands if not tens of thousands of players, are leading to HUGE advantages for the beta players by the time the game is released. 

    And still, they release games with full of bugs!

    Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ghost047
    Originally posted by gamesrfun

     many of which have thousands if not tens of thousands of players, are leading to HUGE advantages for the beta players by the time the game is released. 

    And still, they release games with full of bugs!

    You are under no obligation to buy/play anything at release.

     

  • isslingissling San Francisco, CAPosts: 157Member Uncommon

    In my view this is what is the problem with mmo's in my opinion. Not that the betas are the way they are, but the very wording you are using, advantage, head start, its not fare. When did rpg's and mmo's get to the point where they where a race:(

    It's just sad I get turned off now a days because everybody just see's and end, and not the journey sorry but that is all I got out of why you don't like Beta's.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by gamesrfun

    For example:  Hearthstone.  How many people are going to have a 6 month head start with near full collections of cards?  

     

    If you cannot handle t he idea tha other people will have better collections than you, it is probably unwise to be playing collectable card games.

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon

     I don't mind the closed beta's. Usually they are a curse to me. With the way today's MMO's are made, the content does not justify me playing it a second time. So when the game launches and more people are playing, I've already lost interest (and I didn't have to pay a dime lol). 

    The only time I dislike a closed beta program is when people get to keep a rather large advantage due to the fact there was no wipe.

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