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Why 'Give players tools to create!' doesn't work

jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member

One of the more repeated lines in this forum is to 'give players the tools to create things and all will be well'.

UO / EVE is held up as a shining example with the UO AH system being singled out as a great thing.

The reality is that this doesn't always work and normally to get it to work requires something a lot more effort from players than to make it within the world.

I know people in the car auctioning industry and most of the things are done automatically (check-in/check out/ uploading items onto the internet) so they can do other things that requires a human brain than an electronic one. Why spend time typing  what the car inspection guy wrote on his paper when you can just give him an IPAD and connect that thing to your system?

 

EVE-Vegas had a presentation on logistics of an alliance and what is needed to make that game work.

http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/b/471606839?t=7h20m20s

I've been told that what was shown is more efficient than some companies with 25,000 employees cause good-god is that just insane!

Yeah, 'give players the tools!' is a great mantra and I too wish a slogan like 'YES WE CAN' can solve all of our problems but here's the reality; how many people are willing to do what was shown?

 

And if you are, give me some examples and lets see if some people are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

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Comments

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    There's a huge difference between "doesn't work" and "doesn't always work".

  • goldtoofgoldtoof leedsPosts: 337Member
    Yeah eve, minecraft and terraria were huge flops. Sheeesh.
  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by maplestone

    There's a huge difference between "doesn't work" and "doesn't always work".

    If there is a 99% chance that 'it doesn't work', does it make sense to try for 'make it work'?

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by goldtoof
    Yeah eve, minecraft and terraria were huge flops. Sheeesh.

    By this logic, Visual Studios 2013 is the best thing ever for those people.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by maplestone

    There's a huge difference between "doesn't work" and "doesn't always work".

    If there is a 99% chance that 'it doesn't work', does it make sense to try for 'make it work'?

    Sorry JPNZ going to have to disagree with you on this one.

    80-90% percent of most business fail within the first 5 years.  Does that mean it doesn't make sense to try?

    Most things people do do not work very often, however this does not mean the idea itself doesn't work, just it's implementation. 

    If there is a reward of some kind, that makes it worth the cost, then it does make sense to try.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • cnutempcnutemp Fairfax, VAPosts: 229Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by goldtoof
    Yeah eve, minecraft and terraria were huge flops. Sheeesh.

    By this logic, Visual Studios 2013 is the best thing ever for those people.

    So playing minecraft is similar to writing code in visual studio?

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Boca Raton, FLPosts: 867Member Uncommon
    Well, in my game of choice, I designed a mission tree over the span of 2 years, drawing inspiration from sources like Philip K Dick and Jules Verne, and as a direct result experience a source of accomplishment and greater involvement in the game world.

    "To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
    Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
    Check it out on Steam

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,238Member Uncommon

    City of Heroes had a lot of ways for players to create things:

    1)  The base editor allowed players to create hotels, city blocks, spaceships, lairs, arcane sanctuaries, parks and so on.  I can't tell you how involved some of the designs were.

    2)  The costume creator was a wonderful tool to create robots, soldiers, superheroes, beastmen, ghosts and so many other personalities.

    3)  The Architect Entertainment system was loved by roleplayers and average players alike to create story arcs that the regular lore didn't support.

    In fact, at the end, I'd have to say that City of Heroes was the most "creator friendly" retail MMO from a major publisher.  And it worked, splendidly.

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • SkuallSkuall UnknowPosts: 1,286Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Beatnik59

    City of Heroes had a lot of ways for players to create things:

    1)  The base editor allowed players to create hotels, city blocks, spaceships, lairs, arcane sanctuaries, parks and so on.  I can't tell you how involved some of the designs were.

    2)  The costume creator was a wonderful tool to create robots, soldiers, superheroes, beastmen, ghosts and so many other personalities.

    3)  The Architect Entertainment system was loved by roleplayers and average players alike to create story arcs that the regular lore didn't support.

    In fact, at the end, I'd have to say that City of Heroes was the most "creator friendly" retail MMO from a major publisher.  And it worked, splendidly.

    this

     

    same goes for NWO quests  , i have seem some amazing work from players there.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
     

    Sorry JPNZ going to have to disagree with you on this one.

    80-90% percent of most business fail within the first 5 years.  Does that mean it doesn't make sense to try?

    Most things people do do not work very often, however this does not mean the idea itself doesn't work, just it's implementation. 

    If there is a reward of some kind, that makes it worth the cost, then it does make sense to try.

     

    This is to counter the notion that 'player created tools solve all ills'.

    No it doesn't and there is a 99% chance it won't work because the player base will reject it.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHPosts: 2,628Member

    Kind of vague, 'create things'....I mean taken to it's extreme, this means any run of the mill crafting, housing and such.

     

    If you mean dungeons, then yes, I would agree so far, but I would more blame the tools and the managing of them.  The tools are way too primitive, but I guess they gotta start somewhere....Then the finished products are often some buggy xp abuse ride...So the current tools, I agree.  I think everything made should be submitted for approval/quality inspection in those games. 

     

    I am not a fan of the current set up though, the tools need to get much better, with atleast some kind of system of checks and balances to assure people are not abusing the system. 

     

    So yeah, I don't see a lot of great in the current system, when the tools get WAY better, you will probably lose this argument, and by way better I mean people can actually make a dungeon that is player/raid worthy from scratch, and have all the bells and whistles, along with appropriate loot.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Skuall
     

    this

     

    same goes for NWO quests  , i have seem some amazing work from players there.

    I should have been clear, there is a difference in out-of-game quest creation kit NWO / STO  (which works) and giving players 'tools to be like real life'.

    Once again, UO AH wasn't intended by the game designers to be created in that way but it was.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by maplestone

    There's a huge difference between "doesn't work" and "doesn't always work".

    If there is a 99% chance that 'it doesn't work', does it make sense to try for 'make it work'?

    I'm not sure I understand your point though ... isn't your link saying that even through EvE is not exactly a creativity-based game, if give people access to feeds of game data and roles, even it will provoke players to create sprawling toolkits?

     

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member

    Did you actually watch the video linked?

    Can you fathom how big the player-created infrastructure needs to be to support a system like that?

    That is also voluntary?

     

    The slogan 'give player tools' sounds awesome but there is just a huge impact that comes with it and that huge impact = niche playerbase / 99% failure.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Give players tools to create what?  It matters tremendously both what you want players to create and what tools you give them.
  • 5Luck5Luck Shelton, CTPosts: 185Member
    In UO we has active and silent auctions like..all the time. On the Atlantic shard we even had players use $15 transfer tokens just to sit in on some of the auctions we had there. It was amazing! We had a great community and in the active auctions alot of the time items would go for far more then they were worth just in an open bidding war amongst market rivals!

    The only tools we were given... a book that could be written into and copied and of course the housing with a "remove thyself" command to prevent spammers and disruptions.

    Now see some people want to burn time. And thats just fine. Players can play with as little "interference" as possible and make their whole experience completely streamlined down to the smallest detail. I will even do this some times for weeks or even months at a clip as a gamer. It is essential to -any- game.

    But some want to make waves. Now this is where I think there is a big problem. If players want to make waves and watch other players ride them or even "wipe out" there are always channels for them to do so.

    Most times it happens through a -non intended mechanism-

    Now IF a developer made those channels and made them fun and beneficial to the game and community I feel like we would have a lot less disruptive wave making and we might just see the creative side of these players flourish into something great!
  • Neo_ViperNeo_Viper NotyourbusinessPosts: 598Member

    Letting players create most often doesn't work because many are either immature, childish, or just non respectful of the lore and don't care about the integrity of the world they create for, or simply just completely lack talent (but often still think they are great).

    Just look at the cesspool the most simple player created content in any MMORPG is... chat channels.

    I think the approach EQ Next takes with its separated EQN Landmark tool to filter stuff before it's added to the main world is a good approach. They allow players to create whatever they want, but only fitting content will be put in the "main" game after being filtered by the developer team.

    My computer is better than yours.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Did you actually watch the video linked?

    Can you fathom how big the player-created infrastructure needs to be to support a system like that?

    That is also voluntary?

     

    The slogan 'give player tools' sounds awesome but there is just a huge impact that comes with it and that huge impact = niche playerbase / 99% failure.

    Not all of it (it's a huge stream), but a decent block of a few minutes of it.

    I can imagine that scale of infrastructure easily.   Big databases don't scare me.

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member

    Your post comes across like:

     

    "I don't find this stuff fun so it's stupid that anyone else enjoys and spends time on it."

     

    EVE is pretty successful. Even as someone who doesn't play anymore, I can say that the political alliance aspect fascinates me and is one thing that might draw me back into the game. Some people like to spend their evenings raiding against AI bad guys and some people like to plan elaborate fleet ops against real human enemies and maybe some people like to conduct a virtual auction.

     

    Just because you find something a waste of time doesn't mean everyone else is going to agree with you. Why is the simple concept "People enjoy different things." seemingly so  hard for some people on this forum to grasp?

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jpnz

    This is to counter the notion that 'player created tools solve all ills'.

    Do people feel they are good to have, yes.

    Do people feel it solves specific problems, yes.

    Has anyone said it is the solution for everything? No that I've seen.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • jfoytekjfoytek tigard, ORPosts: 150Member
    Originally posted by jpnz

     

    UO / EVE is held up as a shining example with the UO AH system being singled out as a great thing.

     

     

     

     

    ????  UO= Ultima Online  AH = Auction House???  These two things do not jive....  Ultima Online has an awesome economy and community because of Vendors that you stocked, which created a more realistic feel to the economy....

    One shop could be out of stock you go to the next one....

    One shop has a great reputation of having everything you need although its priced a bit higher then the places that seem to always be sold out, etc etc....

     

    This created a very fun dynamic for people who took the time to run Vendor Houses and create a reputation for themselves...

    But UO definitely never had an Auction House so I have no idea what you are referring too....

     

    UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  • HelleriHelleri Felton, CAPosts: 927Member Uncommon

    Player driven content creation takes the right surrounding environment. You can't throw down the tools and open the gates and expect much.

     

    I have seen it work best in venues where the point is creation (Second Life as a major example). Though with second life a lot of the content is never updated and a lot of the users are not really skilled enough to have any call in making and selling products (and it shows). Users have figured out that they can sell junk just as easily as good items. What Second Life does have going for it is strong User-Creator Communication. And, a user can create in-world.

     

    One great example of user made content done right is IMVU. They have a peer review system. Users can earn currency by taking time to rate potential products and bug test them. If a users submission makes it past peer review then their product becomes part of the marketplace (in a similar fashion to that of Second Life's web based market place). Users there are also heavy into revisiting products they had previously made and updating them.

     

    I really have not seen many MMORPG that are heavy into user created content in my own experience. But I would think if an MMORPG wanted this as part of it's core it would have to take some que's from Social MMO's in order to be wildly successful.:

    • There would have to some fashion of quality assurance.
    • There would have to be a clear way for users creating content to profit real world (such as a Market Place).
    • There would have to be a rating of some fashion in which creators can receive praise for their work when it's good.
    • Users would have to retain some sort of proprietary rights and control over their product.
    • Products would have to be limited in  maturity rating, theme, aesthetics, graphical level of quality etc.
     
    I don't think it simply doesn't work...I think it takes the right application. And, doing it for the right reasons. Take Path of Exile for example. They offer to work with players to develop new items....for $1000.00 USD. Then there is Rune Scape which has a strong suggested content forum (for existing content changes and new ideas). And, guaranteed content polls.  But by merely submitting a suggestion Rune Scapes parent company Jagex, assumes proprietary rights (which I am sure path of exile does as well). In both of these examples they are doing it for the wrong reasons. Both games want to make players feel included, without actually including them. And Everything else not so great about how they approach it stems from that.
     
    Now, I do believe that EQ Next in combination with EQ Landmark may very well pull this off in a big way, and show the power of user created content. They seem to be doing much of what it would take (borrowing from existing models and applying it judiciously to the model they want it to work with). But, until some horizon games make there debut. This seems to me like something only dated games do to stay alive. and only Social MMO's do to make money.

    image

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by maplestone

    There's a huge difference between "doesn't work" and "doesn't always work".

    If there is a 99% chance that 'it doesn't work', does it make sense to try for 'make it work'?

    ....said the person whose plane didn't fly -  to Orville and Wilbur.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Neo_Viper
    Letting players create most often doesn't work because many are either immature, childish, or just non respectful of the lore and don't care about the integrity of the world they create for, or simply just completely lack talent (but often still think they are great).Just look at the cesspool the most simple player created content in any MMORPG is... chat channels.I think the approach EQ Next takes with its separated EQN Landmark tool to filter stuff before it's added to the main world is a good approach. They allow players to create whatever they want, but only fitting content will be put in the "main" game after being filtered by the developer team.
    I tend to think the same way. I just do not trust everyday game players to use "restraint" when they create in-game content. "Wouldn't it be cool if..." seems to be the foremost thought in many gamers heads. That is not usually a good basis on which to to construct within a game's environment.

    Granted, there are some players that have a great imagination AND a great grasp of a specific game environment, but that is a rare combination, not the norm. Too often, players want to play something (or someone) from a totally different game in this new game world. Just take a look at the TES Nexusmods for an overabundance of examples of this.

    The EQ Landmark is interesting. I just have to wonder how much "professionally designed" aspects could be created with all the time devs will have to take to go through all of the player created content. Come to think of it, I guess since players can be PAID for their submissions, they are, by definition, professional, but it is not the same.

    What I think is the base for a lot of this attitude of "let US create" is the dream almost all gamers have of creating a game. If their work can get into a game, then they feel like they are developers without actually being one. Think of the rush you would have when something you created is used and enjoyed by other players in real live game :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioPosts: 2,430Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jpnz

    One of the more repeated lines in this forum is to 'give players the tools to create things and all will be well'.

    UO / EVE is held up as a shining example with the UO AH system being singled out as a great thing.

    The reality is that this doesn't always work and normally to get it to work requires something a lot more effort from players than to make it within the world.

    I know people in the car auctioning industry and most of the things are done automatically (check-in/check out/ uploading items onto the internet) so they can do other things that requires a human brain than an electronic one. Why spend time typing  what the car inspection guy wrote on his paper when you can just give him an IPAD and connect that thing to your system?

     

    EVE-Vegas had a presentation on logistics of an alliance and what is needed to make that game work.

    http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/b/471606839?t=7h20m20s

    I've been told that what was shown is more efficient than some companies with 25,000 employees cause good-god is that just insane!

    Yeah, 'give players the tools!' is a great mantra and I too wish a slogan like 'YES WE CAN' can solve all of our problems but here's the reality; how many people are willing to do what was shown?

     

    And if you are, give me some examples and lets see if some people are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

    And yet, an example was given in that other thread to show exactly how it not only can, but did work. And in a remarkable way, as has been pointed out already in this thread.

    And it wasn't even much as far as tools. In fact, all of the few tools in that example were major parts of the housing system. Those tools got multi-use by extension... by players.

    How many people are willing to do what was shown? Lots did that thing. Other examples would be:

    • The Fishing Council of Britannia, where players used fishing to create player run events, market fished up loot, and organize a social sphere around fishing and ships.
    • The Mage Tower, where thousands of players on several shards worked together to build towers, organized a code of conduct, and meets and events
    • The Museum of Memories and other museums that followed, where players combined rare loot in actual in-game museums to preserve in-game history and rare items, ran events for players too
    • Kazola's Tavern and many other taverns, where players gathered to just mess around, and ran events like chess matches and dart leagues.
    Economics was a big part of UO. You didn't just get rish automatically by leveling up and running quests. You had to DO something to get rich. Trades, rare items, and smart dealings. Unfortunately, PKing was also a way to "get rich quick". That needed fixed, no doubt. But most players were not PKers, and they did lots of activity geared towards economics.
    In particular, trade fairs. These were very common in the earlier days of UO. They were a different way of doing auction type activity, selling their wares. And they were very active.
     
    So, it wasn't just "who did that". It was who went to them and participated. And all told, most players went to various things. And this was on top of guild activities. And UO was a world alive like no game has been since, in these social ways.
     
    And they didn't even design much in the way of "tools". It was more because of the general philosophy of the game design, a more worldly design that allowed players the freedom to do these things. As well as give them a reason to, that being both economically as well as making a name for themselves, or more often their guilds. But what could a game world be like with just SOME more tools to enhance the social atmosphere and dealings of the player base?

    Once upon a time....

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