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Everquest Next: Immersion Server Proposed Ruleset Poll

24

Comments

  • quixadhalquixadhal Kalamazoo, MIPosts: 215Member
    Originally posted by Bivin

     

    In an Immersion server:

    1. Travel is firmly curtailed; no flight paths, no flying mounts (unless there are flying monsters as well--or limited to flying-required areas only), long refresh timer on 'gate', low occurrence of portals to promote exploration over convenience.
    Good.  I agree, but I'll propose taking it a step further.  No in-game radar-blip minimap.  Maps are fine, but only general maps of the area.  Players should have to learn the layout and recognize landmarks to navigate, thus allowing them to actually become LOST.
     
    2. There is corpse recovery or other harsh death penalty, so that the world feels dangerous again. Not perma-death, not perma-lose your items. Just harsh in terms of time and difficulty to curtail things like using death to skip content and to restore a fear of death.
    A harsh penalty is fine.  No time sinks, which is what corpse recovery is.  Most people don't have the luxury of sitting on the game for 8 hours at a stretch, and having to waste half an hour getting their corpse back is just not a fun way to play the game.
     
    Instead, I'd rather see equipment take damage from wear-and-tear, and take considerably MORE damage on death.  Further, I'd like that equipment to be permanently destroyed (falling to the ground as scraps) if the durability reached 0%.  Old text MUD's used to do this, and it meant you could keep playing after a death, but it got more and more risky if you didn't repair.
     
     
    3. There is increased over-all difficulty level so that grouping is encouraged even during short play periods.
    Group play is not something that's determined by difficulty.  Group play is determined by each class having known strengths and weaknesses, and having a group lets each member shore up their weaknesses with the strengths of the other group members.
     
    If you're playing a fighter, you should be very afraid trying to solo against archers, or againt magic users.  If you're a mage, melee fighters are deadly to you.  Thus, a fighter and mage in a group would make a team that offsets each others weaknesses.  Continue that idea for however many classes you want to have.
     
     
    4. Group planning is encouraged because there is no 'summon group' type abilities/ stones/ etc.
    Meh, again, this makes the game too annoying for people who can only play for an hour or two at a time.  Nobody wants to spend half their gaming session travelling to meet the rest of the group.
     
    Instead, make group formation something that can only be done in town.  Once you join a group, if you die, wander off, get disconnected, whatever... you can be summoned back... but if you can only form a group in town, it will make it more likely you'll stick with your group.
     
    5. Players may transfer off the server, but characters may not transfer onto the server from standard servers. The only way onto the server is to create a new character. No power leveling a standard character and then dropping into the dangerous world. Progression will be tougher and it would be unbalancing to allow super-advanced characters from other servers.
    Agreed.
     
     

    6. Mounts would have a hitpoint threshold and be vulnerable to attack, thus bringing increased danger levels and a more difficult economy.
    Agreed.  I'd even suggest that mounts not be a permanent item at all.  As with a party, if you want a mount you have to rent one in town, or if you have a stable and own one, you have to retrieve it from your home.
     
     

    7. Items will have weight, and you'll have a limit! This would promote a more conscious decision of what you carry on you and when you return to your home-- especially with low frequency of hearthing type abilities.
    Agreed,  but if you have a mount, allow it to carry an inventory as well.
     
     
     

    8. No rest exp.
    Fine.  I'd prefer to have the equivalent of EQ2's "AA" slider, so I can control the speed of leveling to avoid running off the end of content.
     
     

    9. No auctioneers or auction houses. the economy is player driven and interaction is required for buying, selling, and bartering with other players.
    Nope.  Totally disagree.  Again, this cuts into playing time.  I want to play the game, not sit in one spot spamming the chat channels to sell stuff.  I certainly don't want to have to read chat spam to find someone selling stuff I want to buy.
     
    EVE did this right.  A full market with both buy and sell orders.  However, like EVE, make the markets regional.  If I'm in Antonica and buy something cheap, maybe I can spend the time to ferry it to Kunark and sell it there for profit.
     
    10. Gear is rare but tradeable. No more "no-trade" drops.
    Agreed.  Again, lke EVE.
     
     

    11. No instancing.
    I can't agree with this either.  Again, it's a time issue.  Nobody enjoys spending 2 hours working their way down through a dungeon, only to find the boss who spawns every 3 days dead, and two other groups already standing in line, camping.
     
     

    12. All, or most, NPCs are able to be attacked.
    HAHAHA, yes.  I remember my first days of EQ1, and hitting 'a' instead of 'h'... oops, not again!
     
  • mcrippinsmcrippins Dallas, TXPosts: 1,070Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by arieste

    I have no interest in such a server, or the poll, but offer one piece of feedback:

     

    The name "immersion" is completely misleading for what you're talking about.  Most of the points have absolutely nothing to do with what's commonly termed "immersion" in an MMO setting.  "Hardcore" or possible "Old School" would be better names.  Although, "old school" only fits if one is coming from a certain type of server in a certain type of game.  

     

    Additionally, given what is known (or not known) about EQN, i think this type of post is better put into "general discussion" forum.  As it stands it doesn't seem to take into consideration ANY EQN-specific mechanics or issues.  It seems to be a list drawn that can be applied to any random game in development and has nothing to do with EQN other than being posted on its board.

     

    I went into this read thinking I would end up with the same verdict, but I don't really agree with you at all in your first paragraph. There a few a couple of items on the list that really have nothing to do with immersion and are more hardcore, but for the most part he hits the nail on the head. 

     

    For example #3. Making the game 'harder' doesn't really have anything to do with immersion unless the original game itself is overly easy.  Yet, I like the idea. #2 is another one. I don't think having a harsh death penalty is a bad thing at all. I started this genre with UO, and that was one of my favorite aspects. It made fights feel very important in regards to survival.  That being said I would love to see this entire ruleset on a server. Not sure if I would enjoy it (not even sure if i'll like the game), but it seems like my kinda thing. So I chose option B on the poll.

     

    Good idea OP.

  • sgtalonsgtalon Lenox, MIPosts: 128Member Uncommon

    I think too many people don't understand the whole issue with harsh death penalties. 

    It makes you really, really, really not want to die. It adds a whole layer to the game that makes it mean a lot more. Pretty much every game out now not only makes death no big deal, they make the game so easy that you never really play the character to the best of your ability because who cares if you die.

    I would love if they made a server with Old School EQ rules. I know me and my friends would definitely play there.

     

    I think that most people who played EQ pre-Luclin would agree too. There is just something immersive missing from MMO's in the last 5 years or so. I think it comes down to how easy they have made everything. Leveling goes by so fast that you miss most of the content, end up maxing out and then get bored with the game. 

    My original character on Vallon Zek was started when Kunark came out. I played for almost 2 years and never made it to max level. The only reason I left was because other cool games came out that i really wanted to spend my money on.

     

    I think that a lot of the people that won't want to play this type of server have never had the level of immersion that the OP is talking about in a game, so they just don't understand why you would want to deal with these issues. I can understand that.

    Why would you want to have to deal with chasing after a corpse? Why would you want to care about inventory management, why would you want to actually travel all the way to your desired fighting location? It is all a waste of time right?

     

    When you know that it is going to take you 15 minutes to go from where you are to the awesome dungeon  with dangers on the path you are really playing the game. The chance that you are going to not only have to fight, but very probably die if you are not paying attention adds immersion to the game. You can't be looking at the TV, or FB while you are playing the game. You have to be there!

    That is what the OP means by immersion.

  • curacura WarsawPosts: 950Member Uncommon
    I would add gear degradation beyound repair if its not in a game.
  • flizzerflizzer Manchester, NHPosts: 1,550Member Uncommon
    No interest personally, but I have always thought this should be included in every game.  Give  players a chance to play this way   Maybe this would stop the "I want games to be hard"  versus "Just let me play without all these tedious mechanics" threads.  Seems a simple solution to me. Not sure why it hasn't been done before.
  • tawesstawess LkpgPosts: 2,536Member Uncommon

    It all sounds fine and dandy, until the population drops... Then it is not as much fun any more and since it has a special rule-set you can not merge it with other servers.

     

    But i´l support you, if nothing else just to be able to ask a few years down the road "How are you liking your extra hard group-focused ghost town."

     

    Actually i retract that... It is a waste of development time.

  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAPosts: 925Member Uncommon

    This is just another thinly disguised request for a developer to customize a game for a specific niche market.  Just like an RP-only or PvP focused game, the hard-core market is just as much a niche, and ultimately is a very minor segment of the market.  Any company that wants its product to reach a larger market will not be trying to focus on a segment of that market.

    And, while I like the term 'Immersion', using a different term to repackage 'old-school' and request another 'EQ1 with better graphics' just proves that someone knows what a thesaurus is.  Any niche markets could use 'Immersion' to describe their own particular subset of MMORPG features.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • MetrobiusMetrobius cherry valley, CAPosts: 95Member Common
    This is more of a list of hardcore features than immersion. I know immersion has different meanings to different people but there is only one definition of hardcore and this is it.
  • JimmacJimmac TXPosts: 1,667Member Uncommon

    Yeah, I want a server like this. I doubt I'll play EQN if it isn't like this.

    But is this poll being offered by Sony or a third party? If it isn't Sony then unfortunately I can't imagine Sony will care about a poll like this.

  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member
    Originally posted by itchmon

    that's not a server ruleset, that's a whole different game.

     

    you cant expect the devs to up difficulty and completely turn off instancing  if their game is designed around certain parts being instanced.  "up difficulty" might be easy to write but there's a lot more to it than just giving mobs more HP and damage- in fact if this difficulty increase were actually carried out, the big complaint would be "all they did was up the HP and damage  on the enemies".

     

    also Don't mistake "immersion" with "difficulty".  they DO sometimes overlap!  but not always.  and immersion is subjective.  For example I'll use myself.  to me unlimited teleports are immersion breakers, BUT flight paths aren't.  to whoever made the original list, flight paths are indeed immersion breakers.  Personally I imagine my character takes a stagecoach or a caravan to get where she or he wants, then resumes his or her adventures.

     

    I LIKE things such as tough death penalties in an MMO but is that an immersion thing?  or is it a "good play is rewarded" thing?

     

    what immersion means to me is the removal of things that remind me "its a game" and the emphasis on the things that make me invested in my character.

    ^this.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Posts: 2,114Member Uncommon
    I voted in the poll and said I would try it .It would start as my primary. I like the work for what you get mentality.Forced grouping was the only item to give me SIGNIFICANT pause.
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    I know that "Immersion" is usually considered an undefined term, since roleplayers have been using it to start message board fights for three decades now...

    But that ruleset is really, really confused about its goals.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • MorovanatorMorovanator Tucson, AZPosts: 26Member
    "A" all the way. never look back. It sounds like AC rules with next gen graphics. That would be major sexy.

    image
  • donpopukidonpopuki Dearborn, MIPosts: 591Member
    I would play but my friend who tends to like easy mode won't. He never played EQ1 so he wouldn't understand the value of the rule set.

    I think some of these will make it into EQN like restricted travel. They already said you need tokens to use the spires. So it's not just a matter of paying a small price like GW2. Plus there will be only one spire per biome.

    Also a non-centralized economy seems to be where they are going. There wa talk of setting up merchants near the spires in EQNL
  • moguy2moguy2 Saint Peters, MOPosts: 337Member
    You are gonna have to fire back up Everquest if you want to get all your asking for. EQNext is going to be just like all the other new games being released these days. Catering to those that get frusterated easily and overall just a normal run of the mill game that you can smash stuff in. Woo hoo .
  • sgtalonsgtalon Lenox, MIPosts: 128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by moguy2
    You are gonna have to fire back up Everquest if you want to get all your asking for. EQNext is going to be just like all the other new games being released these days. Catering to those that get frusterated easily and overall just a normal run of the mill game that you can smash stuff in. Woo hoo .

    Unfortunately EQ is not EQ anymore. It is totally an easy mode game now. I actually did just fire EQ back up and started a new character. There are a couple hundred zones now, yet you only need to visit about a dozen to get to level 60 or so. 

    Travel through the Plane of Knowledge means you can be where ever you want within 2 zones in minutes. Everything you need to buy is right there. Most people spend their time AFK in POK. 

    Leveling is so fast that you can get a character to end game stuff in a week if you work at it. Gear is ridiculous. My friend is level 30 and has most of his stats maxed with the Defiant Gear he got at level 20.

    Add in the new Mercenary healers and tanks and you can solo almost everything. I go in there with my Ranger and a Merc Healer and can solo red mobs or 3 or 4 yellows at a time. XP comes so fast that I usually don't bother to let my merc cleric Rez me so i don't have to re-buff. 

    Most of the awesome gear drops off of random mobs instead of named. Quests are almost pointless since you can get great gear from random grindy mobs.

    It is rather disappointing, yet still better than playing Rift or the Dragon whatever that is out now. I definitely miss the days of old when MMORPG meant some real action and excitement.

    Hopefully, EQN Devs realize this and don't follow the crowd. The fact that they scrapped the game and started over leads me to believe that they are serious about making something better.

  • BivinBivin Atlanta, GAPosts: 4Member
    By the way, for anyone who didn't already catch it, the podcast with MMORPG of some of the devs (including Dave G. ) is very encouraging.

    To jump to the meat concerning EQN, find between 17:40 and 25:00, where Dave G. says basically that the game is going to buck the MMO trend, encourage group play, and be harder overall. I can't find a transcript yet.

    Here's the link:

    http://www.mmorpg.com/gameon.cfm/cast/61 (Note especially Dave G.'s comments between about 17:40 and 24:00. Good stuff.)
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAPosts: 1,344Member Uncommon
     Voted .. A..  and hell yea bring back a challenge to gaming  , instead of the easy-mode junk we have been getting for years..
  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,779Member Uncommon

    i want every single one of these points in my mmorpg. So yes i want this game setup.

     

    Also im not sure why point #6 is in discussion, it should be there!. Mounts break immersion when you are killed and they magically disappear. They break immersion when they are immortal and you arent, etc. Some mmorpgs already have done something similar with mounts where they can die if you dont feed them while others have made them fight on your side and take damage too.

    image
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,464Member Uncommon
    Sad thing is SoE's round table has failed IMO as well. No matter the outcome of their own poll they say why it should be the way they intended. Its clear that EQ fans want a solid trinity game but I think they will put even less stock in this poll when they dont even care about the outcome of their own polls. I hope I am wrong but its the way things seem to be going!


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • Ender4Ender4 milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,253Member


    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Sad thing is SoE's round table has failed IMO as well. No matter the outcome of their own poll they say why it should be the way they intended. Its clear that EQ fans want a solid trinity game but I think they will put even less stock in this poll when they dont even care about the outcome of their own polls. I hope I am wrong but its the way things seem to be going!

    It is a poll not a vote. They care way more about the discussions about the polls than the polls themselves as well. It is sad to me that people keep saying this type of stuff without really trying to understand the process. The round table is working exactly as it should, I hope they keep it up.

    Thanks for the link Bivin. It was really good to hear about the group based stuff and I'm looking forward to the info release that they said was coming in a week.

  • sgtalonsgtalon Lenox, MIPosts: 128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Sad thing is SoE's round table has failed IMO as well. No matter the outcome of their own poll they say why it should be the way they intended. Its clear that EQ fans want a solid trinity game but I think they will put even less stock in this poll when they dont even care about the outcome of their own polls. I hope I am wrong but its the way things seem to be going!

    This is one of the things i always get frustrated about. The votes that everyone is talking about were something like 60%-30% Sure there was a majority, but at least 40% of the people actively DIDN'T want that to happen. 

    Add to it that the round table polls are just a way to get the mood of the people and start a discussion.

    They did the same thing with Planetside 2. They had tons of discussions - pre-round table label - about how the players would like the game to go. But the most important thing about it was it started a discussion. Vets and New people all had input and had talks about the pros and cons of both sides of the argument. Sometimes, something was discussed and fleshed out that actually convinced the devs that there was a better way. 

    The one that i remember specifically was giving Galaxy Air Transport ships the spawn point feature unstead of a ground vehicle. There were arguments on both sides and it didn't take long for the community to convince the devs that even though it was a cool feature, it was not right for the game and they changed it.

    It is going to be the same for EQ:N. They are right now building the game up to an Alpha stage, once they get it all basically working they will give it to us in Beta. Then the real work begins to make sure nothing truly bad ends up in the final product. 

    Patience is key here. If you just get freaked out about it, no one is going to pay attention.

     

  • Ender4Ender4 milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,253Member

    Yep. Throwing a tantrum over the race poll is just bizarre. In effect 54% wanted restrictions and 44% didn't. At that point the discussion outweighs anything the poll could possibly say.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,464Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sgtalon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Sad thing is SoE's round table has failed IMO as well. No matter the outcome of their own poll they say why it should be the way they intended. Its clear that EQ fans want a solid trinity game but I think they will put even less stock in this poll when they dont even care about the outcome of their own polls. I hope I am wrong but its the way things seem to be going!

    This is one of the things i always get frustrated about. The votes that everyone is talking about were something like 60%-30% Sure there was a majority, but at least 40% of the people actively DIDN'T want that to happen. 

    Add to it that the round table polls are just a way to get the mood of the people and start a discussion.

    They did the same thing with Planetside 2. They had tons of discussions - pre-round table label - about how the players would like the game to go. But the most important thing about it was it started a discussion. Vets and New people all had input and had talks about the pros and cons of both sides of the argument. Sometimes, something was discussed and fleshed out that actually convinced the devs that there was a better way. 

    The one that i remember specifically was giving Galaxy Air Transport ships the spawn point feature unstead of a ground vehicle. There were arguments on both sides and it didn't take long for the community to convince the devs that even though it was a cool feature, it was not right for the game and they changed it.

    It is going to be the same for EQ:N. They are right now building the game up to an Alpha stage, once they get it all basically working they will give it to us in Beta. Then the real work begins to make sure nothing truly bad ends up in the final product. 

    Patience is key here. If you just get freaked out about it, no one is going to pay attention.

     

    When a poll shows a majority and the video to follow just talks about why they are not going with the majority vote more the once, you have a problem! The round table is a joke at that points. You can justify it any way you want but when you give your fans a forum to help direct how the game is going and you dont listen. Well you can call it what you will but we know what it means. They have decided what the game will and wont be. At best some polls will go in the direction SoE wants and it will be enough they can point and say "See we listened" If your not really gona listen then dont ask. If you think other wise you have been fooled.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • Ender4Ender4 milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,253Member


    If you think other wise you have been fooled

    Or you are just an intelligent person. A poll where 54% want something is certainly not some big deal when they go against it. Sounds more like you had an agenda going in and you were just looking for something to criticize. This is one of those cases where I feel like I'm in bizarro world because peoples opinions on this seem to be coming out of nowhere. They even said they were siding towards having restrictions and the discussions were so compelling they went the other way. This is more a case for the round table working than anything.

    They polled the community, got a discussion going and the discussion finalized their decision.

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