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Target based combat ? Really?

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  • SpellforgedSpellforged Belvidere, ILPosts: 458Member
    I think your point is kinda funny.  If anything, having action based combat would make it a clone/copy as that's the mainstream these days.  This especially made me chuckle: " In 2013 copying other MMOs is STILL all game companies know how to do?"  Those real-time combat games are all copies too.  lol

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  • goldtoofgoldtoof leedsPosts: 337Member
    Originally posted by Vidir
    Originally posted by SNAFUdamus

    What is going to make this game different  than every other MMO out there. I mean, we now have classes in a game they promised would be skill based.

    Now I hear that the combat will be target based and not based on AIMING? Really, so this is just another in a VERY long line of MMOs where all you do in combat is spam the TAB KEY, find a target then SPAM skill keys until the target is dead? in 2013 copying other MMOs is STILL all game companies know how to do?

    What happened to aiming?

    What happened to ACTIVE BLOCKING?

     

     

    What is different about ESO now? It looks to me like it is just another WoW, SWToR, or pick what ever garden variety game that requires zero skill to play.

    The more I read about the game the more disheartened with it I become.

    Some people like the old style targetting in mmo's. I cant see how aiming makes mmo's better, it seem more like a fps then.

    Active blocking has allways been ther but in a different form you used a skill to block an attack from a foe.

    I would rather keep the old style than fusing the mmorpg's with fps.

     

    i would rather different developers do both and perhaps some others come up with a brand new system.  Variety is good.

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member
    "If your reticle is clearly on one target but your target-aid is on another target, you will still hit the target your reticle is on."

    Sounds great on paper, but in the case of one enemy targetted directly behind another, this could be confusing. Technically the reticle is in the right spot, so who gets hit? The untargetted one in front or the targetted one in behind?

    "In the case of monsters that are closely stacked on each other, the one you have ‘selected’ is the one your attacks will hit."

    This makes it sound like the one in behind would get hit, which now makes me think enemies might not be solid. Is this true?

    This system sounds a bit... awkward.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • Kayo45Kayo45 Neverland, AKPosts: 293Member
    Oh god get over it! I dont see anyone whining about every single FPS game because its "just another point and click," do you?
  • PreparedPrepared Irvine, CAPosts: 95Member
    Originally posted by SNAFUdamus

    What is going to make this game different  than every other MMO out there. I mean, we now have classes in a game they promised would be skill based.

    Now I hear that the combat will be target based and not based on AIMING? Really, so this is just another in a VERY long line of MMOs where all you do in combat is spam the TAB KEY, find a target then SPAM skill keys until the target is dead? in 2013 copying other MMOs is STILL all game companies know how to do?

    What happened to aiming?

    What happened to ACTIVE BLOCKING?

     

     

    What is different about ESO now? It looks to me like it is just another WoW, SWToR, or pick what ever garden variety game that requires zero skill to play.

    The more I read about the game the more disheartened with it I become.

     

    This is GREAT NEWS!  I hadn't been paying attention to Elder Scrolls Online for awhile given that their targeting system was based on the failed aiming method used in Tera.  But if this is true, there is a better chance Elder Scrolls Online will make it as an MMORPG after all.  Seriously, I had written it off entirely as a game I wasn't in the least bit interested because the development team had failed to understand the market for MMOs.

    The things that will make this game different from other MMOs:

    1. Based on the Elder Scrolls games.  The graphics look great.

    2. Three faction based PvP environment instead of the standard two faction PvP system that most MMOs have.

     

    All the development team has to do is place every possible feature and option in the game and they will make it huge.  If they do what ANet did with GW2 and decide to not include all of the MMOs features and options out there from the game, they will fail.  Say what you want, but GW2 failed in the goals that Anet had for the game.

     

  • wooflikeabearwooflikeabear Boston, MAPosts: 4Member

    I just hope their soft-target system makes some allowance for players with higher ping. If you've tried to PvP in Tera (or other FPS crosshair games) with high pings you know what an exercise in frustration that is. This is an illustration of how bad it is for Aussies vs. a player in North America: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r3v_3X-2ps

    There's a reason most MMOs go with target based rather than crosshair aiming. It's to even the playing field between players with high latency and those with fast ping. If you design your game so that only those with ultra-fast ping will be able to successfully PvP or top the damage/healing meters in raids, you're alienating a rather large player base who may not tolerate being treated as second class players just because of their ping.

     

  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Reading, PAPosts: 1,213Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Prepared
    Originally posted by SNAFUdamus

    What is going to make this game different  than every other MMO out there. I mean, we now have classes in a game they promised would be skill based.

    Now I hear that the combat will be target based and not based on AIMING? Really, so this is just another in a VERY long line of MMOs where all you do in combat is spam the TAB KEY, find a target then SPAM skill keys until the target is dead? in 2013 copying other MMOs is STILL all game companies know how to do?

    What happened to aiming?

    What happened to ACTIVE BLOCKING?

     

     

    What is different about ESO now? It looks to me like it is just another WoW, SWToR, or pick what ever garden variety game that requires zero skill to play.

    The more I read about the game the more disheartened with it I become.

     

    This is GREAT NEWS!  I hadn't been paying attention to Elder Scrolls Online for awhile given that their targeting system was based on the failed aiming method used in Tera.  But if this is true, there is a better chance Elder Scrolls Online will make it as an MMORPG after all.  Seriously, I had written it off entirely as a game I wasn't in the least bit interested because the development team had failed to understand the market for MMOs.

    The things that will make this game different from other MMOs:

    1. Based on the Elder Scrolls games.  The graphics look great.

    2. Three faction based PvP environment instead of the standard two faction PvP system that most MMOs have.

     

    All the development team has to do is place every possible feature and option in the game and they will make it huge.  If they do what ANet did with GW2 and decide to not include all of the MMOs features and options out there from the game, they will fail.  Say what you want, but GW2 failed in the goals that Anet had for the game.

     

    You and other people in this thread are insane, or just like being able to eat potato chips and play an MMORPG at the same time.

    The combat in TERA is amazing.  It is so good that I can't play other MMORPGS anymore because they are so incredibly boring.

    TERA has some problems, but the combat is not one of them.

    As for this "aiming reasonably close" thing, it seems little different than the fact that you have to face targets in tab-targeting combat systems.  So really it's tab-target.  And it's another MMORPG I'll have to pass because of it using this archaic targeting system.

    More time for SMITE I guess...

    SMITE: the awesomely addictive 3rd person MOBA

  • Ender4Ender4 milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,253Member


    Originally posted by holdenhamlet
    You and other people in this thread are insane, or just like being able to eat potato chips and play an MMORPG at the same time.

    The combat in TERA is amazing.  It is so good that I can't play other MMORPGS anymore because they are so incredibly boring.

    TERA has some problems, but the combat is not one of them.

    As for this "aiming reasonably close" thing, it seems little different than the fact that you have to face targets in tab-targeting combat systems.  So really it's tab-target.  And it's another MMORPG I'll have to pass because of it using this archaic targeting system.

    More time for SMITE I guess...


    I tend to agree with the others. Tera's combat was a failed experiment. Maybe it is because I played a healer but the targeting system was just awful. The game ended up way to AE focused. The PvP was a hot mess, especially if you got a lot of effects on screen so lag started to hit.

    I think GW2 probably has the right idea. Action based combat with targeting thrown in as well and with hit detection so I can't fire through one mob to hit another etc.

    If the combat is like WoW where everything is just targeted it wouldn't really fit the feel of their other games so I wouldn't think they would go that path. Full tab targeting systems can work but your game has to be top notch to make it work, otherwise you end up with a really boring combat system like a WAR or Rift.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,197Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by holdenhamlet

    You and other people in this thread are insane, or just like being able to eat potato chips and play an MMORPG at the same time.

    The combat in TERA is amazing.  It is so good that I can't play other MMORPGS anymore because they are so incredibly boring.

    TERA has some problems, but the combat is not one of them.

    As for this "aiming reasonably close" thing, it seems little different than the fact that you have to face targets in tab-targeting combat systems.  So really it's tab-target.  And it's another MMORPG I'll have to pass because of it using this archaic targeting system.

    More time for SMITE I guess...

    I agree. The combat in Tera is the standard by which I measure other action combat systems now.

    Soft targeting with a reticule can be down well and I think Neverwinter does a good job at this, but it has a few problems especially as a healer. It also makes some targeting decisions for you which I don't always like.

    My favorite combat systems go in pretty much this order:

    Tera - I love this system because it's not just skill spam, block, move like the other action or hybrids lower on the list

    Firefall - A lot like Tera only more mobile and if you're a squishy definitely relies a lot on kiting. Still a great combat system.

    Neverwinter, Defiance (this one might rate higher if the UI wasn't so hideous on the PC)

    GW2, TSW - Hybrid systems that are much better than the old school, but have less individual tactical thought. Although the group tactics for these games is pretty cool. Still fun systems imo.

    EQ2, LotRO, and all the other full on tab-target + rng style games.

  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Amherest, MAPosts: 1,198Member
    Originally posted by SNAFUdamus

    What happened to aiming?

    What happened to ACTIVE BLOCKING?

     

    Probably the same thing that happened to public dungeons, virtual social game worlds, meaningful RvR, and all the other good features Matt Frior wanted in the game. It wasn't WoW or Skyrim enough, so they got axed by publishers.

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SNAFUdamus
    Originally posted by vmoped

     What happened to common sense?

    What happened to checking facts?

    What happened to not going beserk on the interwebs everytime someone "hears" something?

    There is no tab targeting, only soft locking.  You still actively aim, you still actively block.

     

    Going berserk? Really you think my post was that of a person going berserk?

     

    Its tab and spam no matter how you try to justify it.

    "What we can tell you right now is that the targeting system is very similar to what you experienced when you visited us for the preview event. Like in Skyrim, your attacks go where your reticle is aimed. So, while we don’t have traditional tab-targeting, we do have a system where if enemies are close together, you can tab to select the one you wish to hit. Think of this more as an aid to aiming, and this can be especially effective for ranged combat.

    All targeting is ultimately based on where your reticle is aimed–when you have your reticle aimed at a monster (or group of monsters) you can lock onto a target and even cycle through a group to select the one you want to attack. In the case of monsters that are closely stacked on each other, the one you have ‘selected’ is the one your attacks will hit. If your reticle is clearly on one target but your target-aid is on another target, you will still hit the target your reticle is on. Also, you must be facing your target to hit them.

    There’s a bit more to the targeting and aiming system than that (and we’ll go into more detail in the Ask Us Anything and upcoming combat-centric community content), but hopefully that gives you a general idea. As with anything in development, just keep in mind that this is subject to change."

     

    Also lets not ignore why they have chosen this:  The ESO Megaserver will handle the entirety of North America (and possibly Europe as well). This geographic scope would undoubtedly create situations where latency is the primary deciding factor in player success, a situation which ZeniMax Online will certainly wish to avoid.

    Taken from: http://tamrielfoundry.com/2012/12/targeting-in-eso/ <Read the full article

    Now OP instead of complaining, please come up with a system that is able to handle that many people on one server with natural targetting. I bet if you can come up with the code to write something like that many gamecompanies will want to hire you.

     

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,574Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by holdenhamlet

    You and other people in this thread are insane, or just like being able to eat potato chips and play an MMORPG at the same time.

    The combat in TERA is amazing.  It is so good that I can't play other MMORPGS anymore because they are so incredibly boring.

    TERA has some problems, but the combat is not one of them.

    As for this "aiming reasonably close" thing, it seems little different than the fact that you have to face targets in tab-targeting combat systems.  So really it's tab-target.  And it's another MMORPG I'll have to pass because of it using this archaic targeting system.

    More time for SMITE I guess...

    I agree. The combat in Tera is the standard by which I measure other action combat systems now.

    Soft targeting with a reticule can be down well and I think Neverwinter does a good job at this, but it has a few problems especially as a healer. It also makes some targeting decisions for you which I don't always like.

    My favorite combat systems go in pretty much this order:

    Tera - I love this system because it's not just skill spam, block, move like the other action or hybrids lower on the list

    Firefall - A lot like Tera only more mobile and if you're a squishy definitely relies a lot on kiting. Still a great combat system.

    Neverwinter, Defiance (this one might rate higher if the UI wasn't so hideous on the PC)

    GW2, TSW - Hybrid systems that are much better than the old school, but have less individual tactical thought. Although the group tactics for these games is pretty cool. Still fun systems imo.

    EQ2, LotRO, and all the other full on tab-target + rng style games.

    What is Teras system if it wasn't skill spamming, block, move?

    I liked Neverwinters combat. Didn't try healer. Guardian was good. Firefall was real buggy when I last tried it. :)

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  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Amherest, MAPosts: 1,198Member

    Eh, I can't stand Tera's half action gameplay, or GW2's.

     

    Not after playing full real time FPS MMOs like Planetside 2 and Darkfall.

  • Sho0terMcgavinSho0terMcgavin Harrisburg, PAPosts: 301Member
    Originally posted by holdenhamlet
    Originally posted by Prepared
    Originally posted by SNAFUdamus

    What is going to make this game different  than every other MMO out there. I mean, we now have classes in a game they promised would be skill based.

    Now I hear that the combat will be target based and not based on AIMING? Really, so this is just another in a VERY long line of MMOs where all you do in combat is spam the TAB KEY, find a target then SPAM skill keys until the target is dead? in 2013 copying other MMOs is STILL all game companies know how to do?

    What happened to aiming?

    What happened to ACTIVE BLOCKING?

     

     

    What is different about ESO now? It looks to me like it is just another WoW, SWToR, or pick what ever garden variety game that requires zero skill to play.

    The more I read about the game the more disheartened with it I become.

     

    This is GREAT NEWS!  I hadn't been paying attention to Elder Scrolls Online for awhile given that their targeting system was based on the failed aiming method used in Tera.  But if this is true, there is a better chance Elder Scrolls Online will make it as an MMORPG after all.  Seriously, I had written it off entirely as a game I wasn't in the least bit interested because the development team had failed to understand the market for MMOs.

    The things that will make this game different from other MMOs:

    1. Based on the Elder Scrolls games.  The graphics look great.

    2. Three faction based PvP environment instead of the standard two faction PvP system that most MMOs have.

     

    All the development team has to do is place every possible feature and option in the game and they will make it huge.  If they do what ANet did with GW2 and decide to not include all of the MMOs features and options out there from the game, they will fail.  Say what you want, but GW2 failed in the goals that Anet had for the game.

     

    You and other people in this thread are insane, or just like being able to eat potato chips and play an MMORPG at the same time.

    The combat in TERA is amazing.  It is so good that I can't play other MMORPGS anymore because they are so incredibly boring.

    TERA has some problems, but the combat is not one of them.

    As for this "aiming reasonably close" thing, it seems little different than the fact that you have to face targets in tab-targeting combat systems.  So really it's tab-target.  And it's another MMORPG I'll have to pass because of it using this archaic targeting system.

    More time for SMITE I guess...

    Completely agree with you.  Usually those who love tab target and dislike combat like Tera's fall into 2 categories.  The first is the obvious one.  They are really bad at Tera's combat system.  So, they decide to make excuses on why the game or combat system is bad.    Second group, much older players (35+ years old).  These are the players stuck in their ways.  Nothing new will ever excite them.  They just want their tried and true tab target system.  What both groups don't realize though is that tab target combat has its place, but the new mmos being developed (or soon to launch) are going towards the action combat system.  

    image
  • Sho0terMcgavinSho0terMcgavin Harrisburg, PAPosts: 301Member
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    Eh, I can't stand Tera's half action gameplay, or GW2's.

     

    Not after playing full real time FPS MMOs like Planetside 2 and Darkfall.

    You really can't compare a RPG MMO with a FPS MMO.  Its like comparing different sports.  You basically are saying "I love football, but I hate hockey because its on skates".

    image
  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Amherest, MAPosts: 1,198Member
    Originally posted by Sho0terMcgavin
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    Eh, I can't stand Tera's half action gameplay, or GW2's.

     

    Not after playing full real time FPS MMOs like Planetside 2 and Darkfall.

    You really can't compare a RPG MMO with a FPS MMO.  Its like comparing different sports.  You basically are saying "I love football, but I hate hockey because its on skates".

    Both PS2 and Darkfall are RPGs. They just have a first person viewpoint. Darkfall is more RPG than Planetside 2. They are the exactly same kind of MMO as TERA,  they just execute their combat and world in much more impressive ways.

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,556Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by Sho0terMcgavin
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    Eh, I can't stand Tera's half action gameplay, or GW2's.

     

    Not after playing full real time FPS MMOs like Planetside 2 and Darkfall.

    You really can't compare a RPG MMO with a FPS MMO.  Its like comparing different sports.  You basically are saying "I love football, but I hate hockey because its on skates".

    Both PS2 and Darkfall are RPGs. They just have a first person viewpoint. Darkfall is more RPG than Planetside 2. They are the exactly same kind of MMO as TERA,  they just execute their combat and world in much more impressive ways.

    No doubt.  I often wonder why other devs don't copy Darkfall more often...regarding combat system.  Tera's combat system is really odd.  I didn't like it at all.  Slower paced, self rooting and  it was just not my cup o tea.  I like GW2 combat system if for nothing else other than the combo fields...fantastic idea that should be copied in other MMO's.

     

    I still have some hope for ESO.  Hey, at least the graphics aren't over stylized. The glass is half full ha!

  • Sho0terMcgavinSho0terMcgavin Harrisburg, PAPosts: 301Member
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by Sho0terMcgavin
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    Eh, I can't stand Tera's half action gameplay, or GW2's.

     

    Not after playing full real time FPS MMOs like Planetside 2 and Darkfall.

    You really can't compare a RPG MMO with a FPS MMO.  Its like comparing different sports.  You basically are saying "I love football, but I hate hockey because its on skates".

    Both PS2 and Darkfall are RPGs. They just have a first person viewpoint. Darkfall is more RPG than Planetside 2. They are the exactly same kind of MMO as TERA,  they just execute their combat and world in much more impressive ways.

    Darkfall maybe.  But to say PS2 is the same as Tera just makes me laugh.  Last time I checked, PS2 doesn't have quests or dungeons etc.  I guess you think BF3-4 is the same MMO as Tera as well lol.

    image
  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Amherest, MAPosts: 1,198Member
    Originally posted by Sho0terMcgavin
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by Sho0terMcgavin
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    Eh, I can't stand Tera's half action gameplay, or GW2's.

     

    Not after playing full real time FPS MMOs like Planetside 2 and Darkfall.

    You really can't compare a RPG MMO with a FPS MMO.  Its like comparing different sports.  You basically are saying "I love football, but I hate hockey because its on skates".

    Both PS2 and Darkfall are RPGs. They just have a first person viewpoint. Darkfall is more RPG than Planetside 2. They are the exactly same kind of MMO as TERA,  they just execute their combat and world in much more impressive ways.

    Darkfall maybe.  But to say PS2 is the same as Tera just makes me laugh.  Last time I checked, PS2 doesn't have quests or dungeons etc. 

    Neither of which are needed for an RPG... the most common component of an RPG is a growing character that you customize, and Planetside 2 has that in spades.

  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Amherest, MAPosts: 1,198Member
    Originally posted by Mardukk
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by Sho0terMcgavin
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    Eh, I can't stand Tera's half action gameplay, or GW2's.

     

    Not after playing full real time FPS MMOs like Planetside 2 and Darkfall.

    You really can't compare a RPG MMO with a FPS MMO.  Its like comparing different sports.  You basically are saying "I love football, but I hate hockey because its on skates".

    Both PS2 and Darkfall are RPGs. They just have a first person viewpoint. Darkfall is more RPG than Planetside 2. They are the exactly same kind of MMO as TERA,  they just execute their combat and world in much more impressive ways.

    No doubt.  I often wonder why other devs don't copy Darkfall more often...regarding combat system.

    I still have some hope for ESO.  Hey, at least the graphics aren't over stylized. The glass is half full ha!

    The graphics are just about the only thing that I like about TESO. And AoC has shown me that graphics and art alone cannot sustain me in a game, sadly.

    As for why more don't copy Darkfall. Well, most publishers wanted Darkfall to change their combat system because it wasn't enough like WoW. They went for 3 years shopping around and many publishers wanted to snap the game up, but on their own terms. Terms that said "Get rid of full loot, action combat, and FFA PvP".

    Also, because it is incredibly difficult to do. Aventurine, for all its bad qualities, has coding geniuses. The people who made Darkfall's engine did it from the ground up. They were mostly not video game programmers. They worked in other engineering fields, but they were friends with the CEO of Aventurine, so they came aboard. Darkfall has amazing net code.

    Planetside 2, I imagine, is the only other comparable game because they're the only company that dumped a ton of money into making a custom engine just for real time combat, with a big publisher behind them.

  • richarddoylericharddoyle Tyrone, PAPosts: 82Member
    Originally posted by Sho0terMcgavin

    Darkfall maybe.  But to say PS2 is the same as Tera just makes me laugh.  Last time I checked, PS2 doesn't have quests or dungeons etc.  I guess you think BF3-4 is the same MMO as Tera as well lol.

    I think you're nitpicking a bit here.

    Whether or not the game has different features, it's still an MMO.

    The point being that saying that technical limitations prevent you from making an MMO with true action combat is just an excuse.  There are MMOs with action combat that do not feature aim-assist, not to mention there are plenty of online games where latency is a factor yet they still don't use aim-assist.

    I believe the reality of it is that they're going with assisted aiming rather than free aiming is so they don't alienate those MMO players who either don't like or aren't good at more action-oriented combat.  But then they're trying to find a happy median by not making it completely tab-targeted.  Personally I think hybrid systems typically are rubbish and they don't feel action-like anyway, so why bother?  But, who knows?

    Played: DAoC, AC2, WoW, CoH, GW, GW2, WAR, AoC, Champions Online, Rift, Dragon Nest, Vindictus, Warframe, Neverwinter, Dungeon Fighter Online

    Currently Playing: None

    Waiting for: Landmark, Dungeon Fighter Global

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