In ff14 I'm maining a tank for the first time. So I generally look up a guide to get an overview of the mechanics, but nothing more than that. Once I know what's expected, I usually can handle the situation pretty nicely and get through it, but I'm only coming up on lvl 30, so I would think it gets harder before long. Right now my main struggle have been overzealous DPS pugs who love to spam peak DPS the second I pull and then wonder why their face is being smashed.
Back when I was raiding in WoW, videos were second to detailed text for me honestly. I just had a better understanding reading up on a fight's details than trying to make sense of 20 people spamming spells, and it worked better for me.
So ultimately, I think as tank/heals reading up the basics of a dungeon is courtesy, especially once the game is a bit dated. DPS can get away with doing it on raids, but it should be mandatory for everyone there, since generally if you go into a raid blind, you WILL die. Hopefully wildstar is better about that with its telegraphing, allowing people to go into a fight and learn without immediately being flattened because they needed to know something they could not discern from the fight itself.
In ff14 I'm maining a tank for the first time. So I generally look up a guide to get an overview of the mechanics, but nothing more than that. Once I know what's expected, I usually can handle the situation pretty nicely and get through it, but I'm only coming up on lvl 30, so I would think it gets harder before long. Right now my main struggle have been overzealous DPS pugs who love to spam peak DPS the second I pull and then wonder why their face is being smashed.
Back when I was raiding in WoW, videos were second to detailed text for me honestly. I just had a better understanding reading up on a fight's details than trying to make sense of 20 people spamming spells, and it worked better for me.
So ultimately, I think as tank/heals reading up the basics of a dungeon is courtesy, especially once the game is a bit dated. DPS can get away with doing it on raids, but it should be mandatory for everyone there, since generally if you go into a raid blind, you WILL die. Hopefully wildstar is better about that with its telegraphing, allowing people to go into a fight and learn without immediately being flattened because they needed to know something they could not discern from the fight itself.
^ this it is courtesy for the tank or healer to look up mechanics...I play a tank and majority is dpsers that just want to go in and hack and slash away at bosses oblivious of the mechanics...believe it or not you know it's a trinity...I can understand games like gw2 but to go in high level dungeons and raids blind is handicapping and wasting others time to achieve a goal
It depends on how comfortable I am with the game and spec I'm playing and how difficult the content tends to be. Also if it is a new game I probably won't since everyone is pretty new anyway so I'd rather learn as I go.
No cause im old school. And in my days buying a guide (back then we had call centers and guide books) meant the game was to hard for you.
But thanks for the thread... From now on when all of you brag or put down a game for being to easy and not hardcore enough... Im gonna call BS cause you all just follow instructions from some site or video. Im starting to wonder if everyone at mmorpg.com actually beats these games in less than a month or just reads these sites or watches these vids on how to quick level.
I feel like a kid who just found out Santa clause isn't real
Never. Because of that, I hardly ever ran dungeons or raids when I played MMOs.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
When I'm with friends or in guild then no - it's fun figuring stuff out.
If I'm in a pug then yes - people are impatient and ruin it regardless.
The problem is the entire dungeon/raid aspect now is fundamentally broken. The new emphasis seems to be on getting through a dungeon as quickly as possible so that you can go do something else. That aspect needs to change.
Most of the time I enjoy going in blind, and figuring out the mechanics as we go. However, when I do that I go in with the UNDERSTANDING that people in there are new, and as such the run may not go as smoothly as possible.
If I'm running with experienced players, who are trying to do an efficient run, then it is common courtesy to know wtf u are doing before running the dungeon. Otherwise you are being selfish and holding everyone else back for your own enjoyment.
Simply put, if I want to explore a dungeon for the first time, then I make sure I run it w/ people who are of the same mindset. If I want a stress-free run, even one I haven't done before, then I understand that it's expected of everyone to know the fights; and as such that may mean ruining the surprise for people newer to the dungeon.
Ultimately there really isn't an issue either way, as you 100% have the choice yourself to play one way or the other.
It's just common courtesy to learn about the dungeons beforehand because you are playing with total strangers.
These total strangers should not have to lose their valuable time wiping unnecessarily because I want the joy of discovery. That's the "real world" of mmorpgs, I'm afraid. It's just showing respect for the group.
However, if you want that joy of discovery, I believe you should play with RL friends with that agreement. Or, you can look for a group in chat with that understanding. I'm sure there are other first timers out there like you, who want to do the same. Finally, you can create your own little guild with like-minded people for the purpose of playing and exploring together with a relaxed and casual attitude.
Why should i care about your time when im enjoying my time playing a game? If you think it's wasting your precious time then maybe you should not be playing games.
Yeah but he is correct. He gave both options. If you want the whole enjoyment of discovery and learning you can do so with real life friends, linkshells, free company. Your question can simply be turned into an endless cycle. Why should we care about your enjoyment of the game if you end up wasting the time of 7 others (i.e. strangers, duty finder folks, etc.)? Why wipe to a boss or dungeon dozens of times when you can win 99% of FFXIV's content in one try simply by reading up or looking at a video (good referral of course).
"No cause im old school. And in my days buying a guide (back then we had call centers and guide books) meant the game was to hard for you.
But thanks for the thread... From now on when all of you brag or put down a game for being to easy and not hardcore enough... Im gonna call BS cause you all just follow instructions from some site or video. Im starting to wonder if everyone at mmorpg.com actually beats these games in less than a month or just reads these sites or watches these vids on how to quick level.
I feel like a kid who just found out Santa clause isn't real"
^This -
To each their own, I guess - I never have and never will watch a video or read a cheat guide. But now I have something to chuckle about when these people start bragging about "winning".
Being the fact FF14 dungeons are timed its bad form not to have watched a guide or read up on the dungeon so you know your job in each fight. I have /blacklist more then one player who did not care to take time to prepair and because of to many chain wipes we faild to finsh the dungeon. Done!
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Being the fact FF14 dungeons are timed its bad form not to have watched a guide or read up on the dungeon so you know your job in each fight. I have /blacklist more then one player who did not care to take time to prepair and because of to many chain wipes we faild to finsh the dungeon. Done!
I needed to pass the Garuda trial just to even progress my storyline and it literally took me 12 try's of 30 minutes each to only fail because there were always 1 or 2 who just wanted to Experience and Explore the trial...so yes there's a timer to beat the dungeon or trial and even worse need to beat it to progress in story
Originally posted by bronzephishy So I can understand the purist mmo players who want to run dungeons without spoilers but I've ran Garuda trial 20 times and each time there's at least one or 2 pug players that don't youtube and always cause a wipe to fail....I always youtube before dungeons so we can you know ...maybe beat the dungeon? do you youtube or not?
It depends, I watched youtube video for Coil T1~T4, chimera and titan hard mode before I joined /shout party. Everything else is way too easy though.
However your question is a little badly phrased, I do look at some written strategy guide if there's one available. I just think watching those Youtube videos is too time-consuming.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Being the fact FF14 dungeons are timed its bad form not to have watched a guide or read up on the dungeon so you know your job in each fight. I have /blacklist more then one player who did not care to take time to prepair and because of to many chain wipes we faild to finsh the dungeon. Done!
I know right its not like its a game or anything... Its not like your playing with kids or maybe someone who could be playing there first video game.
No not at all cause your not an elitist, because if you were so l33t you would be in a hardcore FC and wouldnt be playing in a public group with varying degrees of skill and mindset toward games.
So What I have learned from this post is...
1. Most of the ones who cry on how short and easy mmos are.... actually infact take a shortcut if you will and read up on how to defeat the hard challenges and search on the quickest way to achieve cap.
2. Most who complain about no community in current MMOs... Are rude and judgemental holding strangers to a standard of professionalism when this is a game not a paid job.
My main 2 jobs are Dragoon and Monk, Lately ive been lvling a Glad and a Mar and running low level dungeons even the lvl 15 fish one (satashahahdha whatever) And im pretty much like a tour guide, I show people the areas and explain why we get this key or read this object and for what reason. Ive noticed most tanks dont talk much just mark a mob and speed run a dungeon with everyone else just following his lead and never learning anything....
And as a tank if we wipe repeatidly (I had one group omg i was about to pull my head) I calmed the mood down like a leader and got it done. Explain macros to the healer when we finished and also had to explain interactive objects during boss fights to the dps........
Generally speaking I try to do a quick scan of easily available info before I go into a fight for the first time just incase there's some mechanic that is essential to the fight. Otherwise, I like to go into them and experience it. I do try to run as a DPS the first few times into a fight so I can get a feel for it before I go as a tank or healer.
I don't expect people to memorize the entire fight before they even try it, but it's incredibly annoying to get someone who doesn't know anything about the fight and more importantly doesn't put any effort into paying attention to what is going on so they can learn the fight. (I.e. those that die to the same mechanic 4x times in a row because they're not trying to figure out how they died in the first place.)
Nope. Why should one need to read a tactics guide or watch youtube videos of the content ahead?
If you play a game and don't observe NPC behaviour then you might need all guides and help available. If you don't understand how aggro mechanics work in the game you are currently playing then maybe it was not a good idea to skip group content (in favour of fast solo leveling).
Ideally I'd like to experience content without spoilers. And this is possible with the right precautions. But since this is Online Gaming chances are high you'll end up grouping with people that have already visited a certain dungeon. In such a case you don't really need to watch a youtube video. Simply ask your fellow party members. Adapt your tactics to the group setup. Don't put too much on your plate (opponent-wise) because you might not be able to handle it. Don't try to be smart and try to bypass some opponent groups when it's foreseeable that someone might pull a whole lot of opponents. Etc.
The only thing you need is a bit of common sense, observe your surroundings (see what special tricks certain opponents can do) and some playing experience.
An exception is if you joined a "professional" raiding guild/group where people expect you to know the content even if you haven't been there yet. But if they care for their junior members they'd take the time and explain things to you.
Depends on the dungeon for me. If it's something difficult enough that there's a serious risk of me being a liability if I'm not properly prepared, then I will. There's nothing worse than being the person responsible for several failed attempts or being the one who holds the group back.
I'd seriously prefer to not look up fights first though - but that's only relevant if everyone in the group is also new to the fight. It's fun figuring out and progressing through a fight together with a full group for the first time. I've raided since vanilla WoW, so I can remember times when full video guides weren't released while encounters were still in beta. If 8 people in your 10 man group already know the encounter though, you might as well just look the fight up because they're going to spend 15 minutes explaining it to you before the pull anyway.
the only time when i look for youtube gameplay is when i suck so bad i cant go past certain areas in games. I did it a couple times in Dark SOuls with a couple of boss fights to learn some techniques, but that was after i got sick of constantly dying.
I dont see the need to look for youtube dungeon runs before i do the run myself but i wouldnt mind if its a fun video run (not to learn form it). But i think the best thing about video games is to learn stuff the hard way, by yourself. Not going in there for the first time ever and have knowledge of everything after watching many videos. That would kill the purpose of doing it myself IMO if i already know how to do it and what to expect. I play to learn the game and have fun with trial and error, not to copy others in order to achieve my goals. But thats just me.
However your question is a little badly phrased, I do look at some written strategy guide if there's one available. I just think watching those Youtube videos is too time-consuming.
This right here.
95% of the time a video is redundant and a few lines of text explaining some mechanics that might not be immediately obvious is enough.
i do reasearch as i play tank, stil i need experienced players to guide me. I can boss fight, but kill order etc. can be diff then youtube. (as most of em is with 2+ premade)
Stil out of 100 dungeon runs i have only failed once becouse of the time limit. It was a dps that died 8+ time in a row on a boss. I have no problem with people failing as i do it myself. But 5+ time in a row is pushing it.
I must say im quite happy with dungeon overall. I fail maybe 20% of em, but after reading this forum i did expect a higher failure rate on pug runs.
I think if a game requires you to read a guide, then it's a fail game. Unfortunately most mmos don't bother to explain mechanics to people. Every month should have a dungeon/raid journal in game which explains basic boss mechanics like what they did in wow. Not sure how well the journal worked in wow though.
You should be able to tell what's happening by just playing the game. This doesn't make an mmos shallow.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Absolutely not in the case of dungeons, but definitely in the case of raids.
There has to be some fun left in the game, and that's why I like to discover dungeons and experience all the surprises.
However, raids are a different matter. They are specialised content that generally doesn't form part of "normal" game play.
I accept that raids are a necessary chore that need to be peformed in the most optimal way by large groups of people who are generally repeating the same content for the n-th time. Combine that with the fact that classical raids can take a significant amount of time (by most standards) to complete, and that they're only going to be completed by groups in which most members have a fairly good idea of what needs to be done and when.
It's just common courtesy to learn about the dungeons beforehand because you are playing with total strangers.
These total strangers should not have to lose their valuable time wiping unnecessarily because I want the joy of discovery. That's the "real world" of mmorpgs, I'm afraid. It's just showing respect for the group.
However, if you want that joy of discovery, I believe you should play with RL friends with that agreement. Or, you can look for a group in chat with that understanding. I'm sure there are other first timers out there like you, who want to do the same. Finally, you can create your own little guild with like-minded people for the purpose of playing and exploring together with a relaxed and casual attitude.
Why should i care about your time when im enjoying my time playing a game? If you think it's wasting your precious time then maybe you should not be playing games.
Yeah but he is correct. He gave both options. If you want the whole enjoyment of discovery and learning you can do so with real life friends, linkshells, free company. Your question can simply be turned into an endless cycle. Why should we care about your enjoyment of the game if you end up wasting the time of 7 others (i.e. strangers, duty finder folks, etc.)? Why wipe to a boss or dungeon dozens of times when you can win 99% of FFXIV's content in one try simply by reading up or looking at a video (good referral of course).
I would disagree the games are meant to be explored and the dungeons are supposed to be discovered and learned if they would not be the game companys would give you a complete guide/video for every encounter.
If they would do that than the people wanting to actually experience the game would be the ones doing it wrong and therefore should only do so with friends or LS members.
However since its not like that i believe that people who do not wish to play the games as intended and just want a smooth easy run (where you just copy what someone else before found out for you ) should do so exclusively with friends or ls members.
Comments
I didn't, until this game. Not sure If it's cause I'm getting old or what....
I just hate to be the one guy causing all the wipes.
As far as 'spoiling the surprise'. /Meh.
In ff14 I'm maining a tank for the first time. So I generally look up a guide to get an overview of the mechanics, but nothing more than that. Once I know what's expected, I usually can handle the situation pretty nicely and get through it, but I'm only coming up on lvl 30, so I would think it gets harder before long. Right now my main struggle have been overzealous DPS pugs who love to spam peak DPS the second I pull and then wonder why their face is being smashed.
Back when I was raiding in WoW, videos were second to detailed text for me honestly. I just had a better understanding reading up on a fight's details than trying to make sense of 20 people spamming spells, and it worked better for me.
So ultimately, I think as tank/heals reading up the basics of a dungeon is courtesy, especially once the game is a bit dated. DPS can get away with doing it on raids, but it should be mandatory for everyone there, since generally if you go into a raid blind, you WILL die. Hopefully wildstar is better about that with its telegraphing, allowing people to go into a fight and learn without immediately being flattened because they needed to know something they could not discern from the fight itself.
^ this it is courtesy for the tank or healer to look up mechanics...I play a tank and majority is dpsers that just want to go in and hack and slash away at bosses oblivious of the mechanics...believe it or not you know it's a trinity...I can understand games like gw2 but to go in high level dungeons and raids blind is handicapping and wasting others time to achieve a goal
Sometimes.
It depends on how comfortable I am with the game and spec I'm playing and how difficult the content tends to be. Also if it is a new game I probably won't since everyone is pretty new anyway so I'd rather learn as I go.
No cause im old school. And in my days buying a guide (back then we had call centers and guide books) meant the game was to hard for you.
But thanks for the thread... From now on when all of you brag or put down a game for being to easy and not hardcore enough... Im gonna call BS cause you all just follow instructions from some site or video. Im starting to wonder if everyone at mmorpg.com actually beats these games in less than a month or just reads these sites or watches these vids on how to quick level.
I feel like a kid who just found out Santa clause isn't real
Never. Because of that, I hardly ever ran dungeons or raids when I played MMOs.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Yes and no.
When I'm with friends or in guild then no - it's fun figuring stuff out.
If I'm in a pug then yes - people are impatient and ruin it regardless.
The problem is the entire dungeon/raid aspect now is fundamentally broken. The new emphasis seems to be on getting through a dungeon as quickly as possible so that you can go do something else. That aspect needs to change.
As with most things, it depends.
Most of the time I enjoy going in blind, and figuring out the mechanics as we go. However, when I do that I go in with the UNDERSTANDING that people in there are new, and as such the run may not go as smoothly as possible.
If I'm running with experienced players, who are trying to do an efficient run, then it is common courtesy to know wtf u are doing before running the dungeon. Otherwise you are being selfish and holding everyone else back for your own enjoyment.
Simply put, if I want to explore a dungeon for the first time, then I make sure I run it w/ people who are of the same mindset. If I want a stress-free run, even one I haven't done before, then I understand that it's expected of everyone to know the fights; and as such that may mean ruining the surprise for people newer to the dungeon.
Ultimately there really isn't an issue either way, as you 100% have the choice yourself to play one way or the other.
Yeah but he is correct. He gave both options. If you want the whole enjoyment of discovery and learning you can do so with real life friends, linkshells, free company. Your question can simply be turned into an endless cycle. Why should we care about your enjoyment of the game if you end up wasting the time of 7 others (i.e. strangers, duty finder folks, etc.)? Why wipe to a boss or dungeon dozens of times when you can win 99% of FFXIV's content in one try simply by reading up or looking at a video (good referral of course).
Usually I just read a quick text guide.
If it's something I've heard is actually difficult, I'll go ahead and watch a video.
^This -
To each their own, I guess - I never have and never will watch a video or read a cheat guide. But now I have something to chuckle about when these people start bragging about "winning".
I needed to pass the Garuda trial just to even progress my storyline and it literally took me 12 try's of 30 minutes each to only fail because there were always 1 or 2 who just wanted to Experience and Explore the trial...so yes there's a timer to beat the dungeon or trial and even worse need to beat it to progress in story
It depends, I watched youtube video for Coil T1~T4, chimera and titan hard mode before I joined /shout party. Everything else is way too easy though.
I never Youtube a dungeon.
However your question is a little badly phrased, I do look at some written strategy guide if there's one available. I just think watching those Youtube videos is too time-consuming.
I know right its not like its a game or anything... Its not like your playing with kids or maybe someone who could be playing there first video game.
No not at all cause your not an elitist, because if you were so l33t you would be in a hardcore FC and wouldnt be playing in a public group with varying degrees of skill and mindset toward games.
So What I have learned from this post is...
1. Most of the ones who cry on how short and easy mmos are.... actually infact take a shortcut if you will and read up on how to defeat the hard challenges and search on the quickest way to achieve cap.
2. Most who complain about no community in current MMOs... Are rude and judgemental holding strangers to a standard of professionalism when this is a game not a paid job.
My main 2 jobs are Dragoon and Monk, Lately ive been lvling a Glad and a Mar and running low level dungeons even the lvl 15 fish one (satashahahdha whatever) And im pretty much like a tour guide, I show people the areas and explain why we get this key or read this object and for what reason. Ive noticed most tanks dont talk much just mark a mob and speed run a dungeon with everyone else just following his lead and never learning anything....
And as a tank if we wipe repeatidly (I had one group omg i was about to pull my head) I calmed the mood down like a leader and got it done. Explain macros to the healer when we finished and also had to explain interactive objects during boss fights to the dps........
Generally speaking I try to do a quick scan of easily available info before I go into a fight for the first time just incase there's some mechanic that is essential to the fight. Otherwise, I like to go into them and experience it. I do try to run as a DPS the first few times into a fight so I can get a feel for it before I go as a tank or healer.
I don't expect people to memorize the entire fight before they even try it, but it's incredibly annoying to get someone who doesn't know anything about the fight and more importantly doesn't put any effort into paying attention to what is going on so they can learn the fight. (I.e. those that die to the same mechanic 4x times in a row because they're not trying to figure out how they died in the first place.)
Nope. Why should one need to read a tactics guide or watch youtube videos of the content ahead?
If you play a game and don't observe NPC behaviour then you might need all guides and help available. If you don't understand how aggro mechanics work in the game you are currently playing then maybe it was not a good idea to skip group content (in favour of fast solo leveling).
Ideally I'd like to experience content without spoilers. And this is possible with the right precautions. But since this is Online Gaming chances are high you'll end up grouping with people that have already visited a certain dungeon. In such a case you don't really need to watch a youtube video. Simply ask your fellow party members. Adapt your tactics to the group setup. Don't put too much on your plate (opponent-wise) because you might not be able to handle it. Don't try to be smart and try to bypass some opponent groups when it's foreseeable that someone might pull a whole lot of opponents. Etc.
The only thing you need is a bit of common sense, observe your surroundings (see what special tricks certain opponents can do) and some playing experience.
An exception is if you joined a "professional" raiding guild/group where people expect you to know the content even if you haven't been there yet. But if they care for their junior members they'd take the time and explain things to you.
Depends on the dungeon for me. If it's something difficult enough that there's a serious risk of me being a liability if I'm not properly prepared, then I will. There's nothing worse than being the person responsible for several failed attempts or being the one who holds the group back.
I'd seriously prefer to not look up fights first though - but that's only relevant if everyone in the group is also new to the fight. It's fun figuring out and progressing through a fight together with a full group for the first time. I've raided since vanilla WoW, so I can remember times when full video guides weren't released while encounters were still in beta. If 8 people in your 10 man group already know the encounter though, you might as well just look the fight up because they're going to spend 15 minutes explaining it to you before the pull anyway.
the only time when i look for youtube gameplay is when i suck so bad i cant go past certain areas in games. I did it a couple times in Dark SOuls with a couple of boss fights to learn some techniques, but that was after i got sick of constantly dying.
I dont see the need to look for youtube dungeon runs before i do the run myself but i wouldnt mind if its a fun video run (not to learn form it). But i think the best thing about video games is to learn stuff the hard way, by yourself. Not going in there for the first time ever and have knowledge of everything after watching many videos. That would kill the purpose of doing it myself IMO if i already know how to do it and what to expect. I play to learn the game and have fun with trial and error, not to copy others in order to achieve my goals. But thats just me.
This right here.
95% of the time a video is redundant and a few lines of text explaining some mechanics that might not be immediately obvious is enough.
i do reasearch as i play tank, stil i need experienced players to guide me. I can boss fight, but kill order etc. can be diff then youtube. (as most of em is with 2+ premade)
Stil out of 100 dungeon runs i have only failed once becouse of the time limit. It was a dps that died 8+ time in a row on a boss. I have no problem with people failing as i do it myself. But 5+ time in a row is pushing it.
I must say im quite happy with dungeon overall. I fail maybe 20% of em, but after reading this forum i did expect a higher failure rate on pug runs.
You should be able to tell what's happening by just playing the game. This doesn't make an mmos shallow.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Absolutely not in the case of dungeons, but definitely in the case of raids.
There has to be some fun left in the game, and that's why I like to discover dungeons and experience all the surprises.
However, raids are a different matter. They are specialised content that generally doesn't form part of "normal" game play.
I accept that raids are a necessary chore that need to be peformed in the most optimal way by large groups of people who are generally repeating the same content for the n-th time. Combine that with the fact that classical raids can take a significant amount of time (by most standards) to complete, and that they're only going to be completed by groups in which most members have a fairly good idea of what needs to be done and when.
I would disagree the games are meant to be explored and the dungeons are supposed to be discovered and learned if they would not be the game companys would give you a complete guide/video for every encounter.
If they would do that than the people wanting to actually experience the game would be the ones doing it wrong and therefore should only do so with friends or LS members.
However since its not like that i believe that people who do not wish to play the games as intended and just want a smooth easy run (where you just copy what someone else before found out for you ) should do so exclusively with friends or ls members.