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SotA is just another carebear game

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  • DeivosDeivos Mountain View, CAPosts: 1,815Member Uncommon

    In PvE, risk vs reward would be the same as anywhere else. effort and cost can be as much of a factor wherever you go.

     

    For example, you say full loot PvP, and the PvE equivalent already exists in the form of corpse runs to recover your stuff. You can modify that equation by letting NPCs wield your equipment, and that gives the double effect of having to recover your gear while at a loss, and bridge the gap of retaking it from a foe as if a person had taken it.

     

    Your premise is built on the notion that the problems one faces in PvP is functionally any different than that which one would face in PvE, and not realizing that both are bound to the exact same subject of what rules define the overall game.

    "The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners."
    - Thomas B. Macaulay

  • Aragon100Aragon100 OsloPosts: 2,224Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Deivos

    In PvE, risk vs reward would be the same as anywhere else. effort and cost can be as much of a factor wherever you go.

     

    For example, you say full loot PvP, and the PvE equivalent already exists in the form of corpse runs to recover your stuff. You can modify that equation by letting NPCs wield your equipment, and that gives the double effect of having to recover your gear while at a loss, and bridge the gap of retaking it from a foe as if a person had taken it.

     

    Your premise is built on the notion that the problems one faces in PvP is functionally any different than that which one would face in PvE, and not realizing that both are bound to the exact same subject of what rules define the overall game.

    Yes there is effort but there is no risk, just rewards. And there is very little consequences.

    Corpse runs usually mean you run to a body that never decay or you just have your loot on you when ressurect. 

    In the PvE world some games use insurance to lower the risk loosing anything. I can go on alot longer but there is a huge difference.

     

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,222Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Deivos

    In PvE, risk vs reward would be the same as anywhere else. effort and cost can be as much of a factor wherever you go.

     

    For example, you say full loot PvP, and the PvE equivalent already exists in the form of corpse runs to recover your stuff. You can modify that equation by letting NPCs wield your equipment, and that gives the double effect of having to recover your gear while at a loss, and bridge the gap of retaking it from a foe as if a person had taken it.

     

    Your premise is built on the notion that the problems one faces in PvP is functionally any different than that which one would face in PvE, and not realizing that both are bound to the exact same subject of what rules define the overall game.

    This makes sense. In Lineage 1 I would have the same xp penalty whether I died to a mob or a player. Whether I dropped items and how much I dropped to the ground would depend on my personal karma score. Mobs and players gave different types of rewards. You might get lucky and get a good drop from a chaotic player, but smart people had pk gear sets so if they died and dropped it was no big deal. In fact some "red" chaotics went out and got killed to reduce their karma debt so they could put good gear back on and farm the xp loss faster.

    In any event all that still doesn't matter because they obviously learned from UO that pure gankfest pvp wasn't that popular, but more so that sort of open pvp is a nightmare to keep in check if the feedback from Koster is any indication. If people supported sota before they knew exactly how pvp would work then that's their fault. They get to learn a real risk vs reward lesson. Next time maybe they'll be more careful with throwing their support and money after the wind.

     

  • Dwarfman420Dwarfman420 Kazoo, MIPosts: 207Member

    Pvp in UO =

     

    Reds - pvp spec'd/geared

     

    hunting

     

    Blue players -  pve spec'd/geared trying to pve.

    roflmao

     

    w/e 2 hardcore pvp in UO

    what a joke

  • g0m0rrahg0m0rrah indianapolis, INPosts: 269Member
    Originally posted by TiamatRoar
    Originally posted by Zajjar

    We try so hard to incorporate reallife and realism into mmorpgs, yet, the thing the entire earth is evolving around is PVP.

    I praise the day, we get an adventure mmo, where u claim what u kill.

    I dunno, I haven't PVP'd a person in real life in like, 16 years, so I wouldn't say my real life revolves around real PvP. 

     

     This statement is pretty absurd.  Every time you apply for a job, get in an argument, drive your car in traffic, ebay, place an offer on a house, you engage in PvP.  We are constantly competing for resources, land, etc.

     I do not understand why people hate risk vs reward so much when it comes to video games.  If it comes down to choice, then risk vs reward options are a good thing.  NPC content becomes stale and must constantly be evolved to make things interesting and involving.  With PvP, varied character development and varied player skill keeps you guessing and I find this kind of combat much more interesting.

  • HalandirHalandir nnPosts: 758Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aragon100
    ...

    Yes insurance and full loot. You can board and kill the crew and steal there ship and cargo.

    There are no complete safe zones just some that are safer then others.

    Full loot and non-consensual PvP is good enough for me. That is something we will never see in SotA.

     

    Sounds like you have found your dreamgame in the making. Why on earth do you spend so much time/bandwidth attacking something that is (well to most anyway) obviously not your dream game?

    Belittling a game you have no intention to play will NOT make your dream game better/more successful. Actually it may be counterproductive because most of us carebears are smart enough to avoid games that relies on a fresh supply of cannonfodder. You just managed to strike one game off the list of things to try for some of us.

    Anyway: Good luck with your game. I hope it will match your expectations  :-)

     

    We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
    (repeat ad infinitum)

  • g0m0rrahg0m0rrah indianapolis, INPosts: 269Member
    Originally posted by Halandir

    Sounds like you have found your dreamgame in the making. Why on earth do you spend so much time/bandwidth attacking something that is (well to most anyway) obviously not your dream game?

    Belittling a game you have no intention to play will NOT make your dream game better/more successful. Actually it may be counterproductive because most of us carebears are smart enough to avoid games that relies on a fresh supply of cannonfodder. You just managed to strike one game off the list of things to try for some of us.

    Anyway: Good luck with your game. I hope it will match your expectations  :-)

     

     Yes why should we critique any mmorpg when one already caters to our needs.  When a mmo isnt even developed yet and they are still basically in the idea stage, we should never comment on our ideas.  We should go play the game that already exists that fits our needs. 

     Just because Eve exists does not mean we do not want a decent fantasy setting PvP game that is FFA.  Your argument that " since there is one or two games that fits your needs, you should play them and never speak about other MMORPGS " is a pretty weak one.

     We complain about a function or mechanic we do not like.  You complain about us complaining.  We get no constructive ideas.  How about you actually speak on the topic.  Imagine this kind of attitude in the real world, Hey KFC my chicken was under cooked.  Hey man, dont complain about under cooked chicken when you can just go get chicken at Popeye's.

  • Big.Daddy.SamediBig.Daddy.Samedi Edmonton, ABPosts: 148Member Uncommon

    Please explain to me how PVP = Risk vs Reward gameplay? You keep tossing that around but have yet to explain how this is the case.

     

    You take offense at being called a carebear yourself, and then proceed to take offense that some said you "May" have sociopathic idiations. Yet you continue to use a derogitory term for PvE only players. Do you see the hypocrisy in this?

    You like PvP, you think it is the best thing ever, we really do get it. Just move on, stop with the 30 threads for the same bloody topic. Pick one thread and stay there.

    And again before you jump on me calling me a carebear... I do PvP, I enjoy PvP. I do not however believe that it is the ONLY way to play, nor do I see how this is "Risk vs Reward" gameplay. That is a canned statement that you are using to make it mean whatever the hell you want.

    Risk = Risking something in the game, this can be anything, Time, Loot, Exp, Repair costs. There are different levels of Rick

    Reward = The things you gain. XP, Loot, Money

     

    Last I checked all of this can be obtained in PvE as well. So really, your statement does not define what you want it to. However I do understand what you are trying to say.

  • g0m0rrahg0m0rrah indianapolis, INPosts: 269Member
    Originally posted by Arrogant_Wormy

    Please explain to me how PVP = Risk vs Reward gameplay? You keep tossing that around but have yet to explain how this is the case.

      So you are at the track.  A horse named " Mr Obvious " is 1000/1 and a horse named " Bad Analogy " is 10/1 odds.  Obviously, Mr Obvious is less likely to win so there is more risk to offset the chance at greater gain. 

      To translate this to MMORPG PvP terms, If an area has the best loot/exp/money but it is a PvP area, there is much greater risk of death(time/exp wasted) for chance at greater gains.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aragon100
    Originally posted by Deivos
    Have to clarify what one considers 'risk versus reward' here, because that doesn't seem to be a condition that can only be met through player competition.

    I consider that risk vs reward. Add consequences as full loot to it and its pretty much as it should be.

    Explain what in carebear world you would consider risk vs reward, im interested.

    Experience loss, de-leveling, expensive gear repairs....... all can be pve related and definitely make you think twice before engaging.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • HalandirHalandir nnPosts: 758Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by g0m0rrah
    Originally posted by Halandir

    Sounds like you have found your dreamgame in the making. Why on earth do you spend so much time/bandwidth attacking something that is (well to most anyway) obviously not your dream game?

    Belittling a game you have no intention to play will NOT make your dream game better/more successful. Actually it may be counterproductive because most of us carebears are smart enough to avoid games that relies on a fresh supply of cannonfodder. You just managed to strike one game off the list of things to try for some of us.

    Anyway: Good luck with your game. I hope it will match your expectations  :-)

     

     Yes why should we critique any mmorpg when one already caters to our needs.  When a mmo isnt even developed yet and they are still basically in the idea stage, we should never comment on our ideas.  We should go play the game that already exists that fits our needs. 

     Just because Eve exists does not mean we do not want a decent fantasy setting PvP game that is FFA.  Your argument that " since there is one or two games that fits your needs, you should play them and never speak about other MMORPGS " is a pretty weak one.

     We complain about a function or mechanic we do not like.  You complain about us complaining.  We get no constructive ideas.  How about you actually speak on the topic.  Imagine this kind of attitude in the real world, Hey KFC my chicken was under cooked.  Hey man, dont complain about under cooked chicken when you can just go get chicken at Popeye's.

    Oh cry me a (constructive) river...

    I do not complain about constructive criticism. I complain about whiny belittling!

    And no: The OP had all the info at hand. The usual: "Wahwahh. Full loot. FFA. Carebear. etc." is just ranting and belittling a game without adding ideas to move the game forward: Not constructive criticism!

    But hey: Enjoy your chickens - You sound like an expert :)

     

     

    We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
    (repeat ad infinitum)

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dwarfman420

    Pvp in UO =

     

    Reds - pvp spec'd/geared

     

    hunting

     

    Blue players -  pve spec'd/geared trying to pve.

    roflmao

     

    w/e 2 hardcore pvp in UO

    what a joke

    That's what made it good. If I wanted a game where I knew I was going to always be on equal footing, I'd playing something with instanced battlegrounds. But I find it far more interesting to play in an eco system of people engaging in profitable, but risky, professions.

  • g0m0rrahg0m0rrah indianapolis, INPosts: 269Member
    Originally posted by Halandir
    Originally posted by g0m0rrah
    Originally posted by Halandir

    Sounds like you have found your dreamgame in the making. Why on earth do you spend so much time/bandwidth attacking something that is (well to most anyway) obviously not your dream game?

    Belittling a game you have no intention to play will NOT make your dream game better/more successful. Actually it may be counterproductive because most of us carebears are smart enough to avoid games that relies on a fresh supply of cannonfodder. You just managed to strike one game off the list of things to try for some of us.

    Anyway: Good luck with your game. I hope it will match your expectations  :-)

     

     Yes why should we critique any mmorpg when one already caters to our needs.  When a mmo isnt even developed yet and they are still basically in the idea stage, we should never comment on our ideas.  We should go play the game that already exists that fits our needs. 

     Just because Eve exists does not mean we do not want a decent fantasy setting PvP game that is FFA.  Your argument that " since there is one or two games that fits your needs, you should play them and never speak about other MMORPGS " is a pretty weak one.

     We complain about a function or mechanic we do not like.  You complain about us complaining.  We get no constructive ideas.  How about you actually speak on the topic.  Imagine this kind of attitude in the real world, Hey KFC my chicken was under cooked.  Hey man, dont complain about under cooked chicken when you can just go get chicken at Popeye's.

    Oh cry me a (constructive) river...

    I do not complain about constructive criticism. I complain about whiny belittling!

    And no: The OP had all the info at hand. The usual: "Wahwahh. Full loot. FFA. Carebear. etc." is just ranting and belittling a game without adding ideas to move the game forward: Not constructive criticism!

    But hey: Enjoy your chickens - You sound like an expert :)

     

     

    Its ok.  Someone dislikes the game you do.  Someone is asking for an FFA server as an option, which makes you angry because why should other people get to enjoy themselves.

  • HalandirHalandir nnPosts: 758Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by g0m0rrah
    ..

    Its ok.  Someone dislikes the game you do.  Someone is asking for an FFA server as an option, which makes you angry because why should other people get to enjoy themselves.

    Asking for an FFA server as an option? Where? I did not see that in the OP's posts.

    And option or not - It would never anger me. It's not like I am forced to play the thing, how did you make that one up?

    And, just for clarification: I have no idea whether I will like the game or not...Have not played it yet for some reason :-D

     

     

    We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
    (repeat ad infinitum)

  • g0m0rrahg0m0rrah indianapolis, INPosts: 269Member
    Originally posted by Halandir
    Originally posted by g0m0rrah
    ..

    Its ok.  Someone dislikes the game you do.  Someone is asking for an FFA server as an option, which makes you angry because why should other people get to enjoy themselves.

    Asking for an FFA server as an option? Where? I did not see that in the OP's posts.

    And option or not - It would never anger me. It's not like I am forced to play the thing, how did you make that one up?

    And, just for clarification: I have no idea whether I will like the game or not...Have not played it yet for some reason :-D

     

     

    Then to use your argument " Why on earth are you wasting the time/bandwidth to moan about someone else moaning".  Any amount of critical thinking when reading the OP's post would suggest that he wants FFA PvP.  Adding an FFA PvP server would simply be one option...

  • Aragon100Aragon100 OsloPosts: 2,224Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Halandir
    Originally posted by Aragon100
    ...

    Yes insurance and full loot. You can board and kill the crew and steal there ship and cargo.

    There are no complete safe zones just some that are safer then others.

    Full loot and non-consensual PvP is good enough for me. That is something we will never see in SotA.

     

    Actually it may be counterproductive because most of us carebears are smart enough to avoid games that relies on a fresh supply of cannonfodder. You just managed to strike one game off the list of things to try for some of us.

    Anyway: Good luck with your game. I hope it will match your expectations  :-)

     

    You just dont avoid those kind of games you also try to change the potentially good PvP games out there to suit your own lame PvP playstyle, that is what really upset me.

    You have your own carebear game in SotA but that is not enough you also try to bring down the game the PvP hardcore players are looking forward to and change it into a game that is carebear PvP. No risk vs reward and no consequences.

    [mod edit]
  • Aragon100Aragon100 OsloPosts: 2,224Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Aragon100
    Originally posted by Deivos
    Have to clarify what one considers 'risk versus reward' here, because that doesn't seem to be a condition that can only be met through player competition.

    I consider that risk vs reward. Add consequences as full loot to it and its pretty much as it should be.

    Explain what in carebear world you would consider risk vs reward, im interested.

    Experience loss, de-leveling, expensive gear repairs....... all can be pve related and definitely make you think twice before engaging.

    So you really claim the risk vs reward and consequences in carebear games to the same as in hardcore PvP games as oldschool UO (before AoS).

    Just amazing. 

  • Aragon100Aragon100 OsloPosts: 2,224Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by g0m0rrah
    Originally posted by Halandir
    Originally posted by g0m0rrah
    Originally posted by Halandir

    Sounds like you have found your dreamgame in the making. Why on earth do you spend so much time/bandwidth attacking something that is (well to most anyway) obviously not your dream game?

    Belittling a game you have no intention to play will NOT make your dream game better/more successful. Actually it may be counterproductive because most of us carebears are smart enough to avoid games that relies on a fresh supply of cannonfodder. You just managed to strike one game off the list of things to try for some of us.

    Anyway: Good luck with your game. I hope it will match your expectations  :-)

     

     Yes why should we critique any mmorpg when one already caters to our needs.  When a mmo isnt even developed yet and they are still basically in the idea stage, we should never comment on our ideas.  We should go play the game that already exists that fits our needs. 

     Just because Eve exists does not mean we do not want a decent fantasy setting PvP game that is FFA.  Your argument that " since there is one or two games that fits your needs, you should play them and never speak about other MMORPGS " is a pretty weak one.

     We complain about a function or mechanic we do not like.  You complain about us complaining.  We get no constructive ideas.  How about you actually speak on the topic.  Imagine this kind of attitude in the real world, Hey KFC my chicken was under cooked.  Hey man, dont complain about under cooked chicken when you can just go get chicken at Popeye's.

    Oh cry me a (constructive) river...

    I do not complain about constructive criticism. I complain about whiny belittling!

    And no: The OP had all the info at hand. The usual: "Wahwahh. Full loot. FFA. Carebear. etc." is just ranting and belittling a game without adding ideas to move the game forward: Not constructive criticism!

    But hey: Enjoy your chickens - You sound like an expert :)

     

     

    Its ok.  Someone dislikes the game you do.  Someone is asking for an FFA server as an option, which makes you angry because why should other people get to enjoy themselves.

    Yeah that is the problem with SotA. Carebears have their game but that is not enough,  they want to ruin the hardcore players SotA game. Make it carebear PvP cause they dont want to take risks and definetly not have consequences as full loot.

  • Aragon100Aragon100 OsloPosts: 2,224Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by g0m0rrah
    Originally posted by Halandir
    Originally posted by g0m0rrah
    ..

    Its ok.  Someone dislikes the game you do.  Someone is asking for an FFA server as an option, which makes you angry because why should other people get to enjoy themselves.

    Asking for an FFA server as an option? Where? I did not see that in the OP's posts.

    And option or not - It would never anger me. It's not like I am forced to play the thing, how did you make that one up?

    And, just for clarification: I have no idea whether I will like the game or not...Have not played it yet for some reason :-D

     

     

    Then to use your argument " Why on earth are you wasting the time/bandwidth to moan about someone else moaning".  Any amount of critical thinking when reading the OP's post would suggest that he wants FFA PvP.  Adding an FFA PvP server would simply be one option...

    Yeah a FFA server would be alot of fun. Like old UO.

  • HalandirHalandir nnPosts: 758Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aragon100
    Originally posted by Halandir
    Originally posted by Aragon100
    ...

    Yes insurance and full loot. You can board and kill the crew and steal there ship and cargo.

    There are no complete safe zones just some that are safer then others.

    Full loot and non-consensual PvP is good enough for me. That is something we will never see in SotA.

     

    Actually it may be counterproductive because most of us carebears are smart enough to avoid games that relies on a fresh supply of cannonfodder. You just managed to strike one game off the list of things to try for some of us.

    Anyway: Good luck with your game. I hope it will match your expectations  :-)

     

    You just dont avoid those kind of games you also try to change the potentially good PvP games out there to suit your own lame PvP playstyle, that is what really upset me.

    You have your own carebear game in SotA but that is not enough you also try to bring down the game the PvP hardcore players are looking forward to and change it into a game that is carebear PvP. No risk vs reward and no consequences.

    [mod edit]

    You quite obviously do not know me. Much less my usual pattern of thought. I am not going to try and change some game to conform to my idea of having fun.

    I'll give you this one though: Every time someone pulls the "carebear" card my smiling thoughts drift towards the "idiot cloud"...

    And yes, I hope this game will be successful, just as I hope your preferred game will be. Chances are I won't be playing either but why should I wish for failures?

     

     

    We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
    (repeat ad infinitum)

  • Aragon100Aragon100 OsloPosts: 2,224Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Halandir
    Originally posted by Aragon100
    Originally posted by Halandir
    Originally posted by Aragon100
    ...

    Yes insurance and full loot. You can board and kill the crew and steal there ship and cargo.

    There are no complete safe zones just some that are safer then others.

    Full loot and non-consensual PvP is good enough for me. That is something we will never see in SotA.

     

    Actually it may be counterproductive because most of us carebears are smart enough to avoid games that relies on a fresh supply of cannonfodder. You just managed to strike one game off the list of things to try for some of us.

    Anyway: Good luck with your game. I hope it will match your expectations  :-)

     

    You just dont avoid those kind of games you also try to change the potentially good PvP games out there to suit your own lame PvP playstyle, that is what really upset me.

    You have your own carebear game in SotA but that is not enough you also try to bring down the game the PvP hardcore players are looking forward to and change it into a game that is carebear PvP. No risk vs reward and no consequences.

    [mod edit]

    You quite obviously do not know me. Much less my usual pattern of thought. I am not going to try and change some game to conform to my idea of having fun.

    I'll give you this one though: Every time someone pulls the "carebear" card my smiling thoughts drift towards the "idiot cloud"...

    And yes, I hope this game will be successful, just as I hope your preferred game will be. Chances are I won't be playing either but why should I wish for failures?

     

     

    I were describing the carebears over at SotA forums. Was that so hard to understand?

  • NevulusNevulus Miami Beach, FLPosts: 1,288Member Uncommon

    To me a carebear stems to even griefers. You know the ones too scared to pick on people ready to fight back but rather pick on people that can't fight back.

     

    As per the eve meaning: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Care%20Bear

    4. In the MMORPG Eve-Online (www.eve-online.com) a Carebear is a character who stays in Concord (police) controlled space and never ventures into unsecured "0.0" space. 

    Unlike previous MMORPG related definitions, an Eve carebear doesn't necessarily eschew Player-vs-Player activity - a carebear may actually be a pirate or griefer who specifically stays in Concord controlled space to prey on new players (noobs). 

    Carebear pirates are commonly considered a cowardly form of pirate.

     

    Is that what the op wants?  To pick on people that cant fight back? 

  • PsychoticHamsterPsychoticHamster Brooklyn, NYPosts: 97Member Common
    While I respect that you and many others yearn for a full loot MMO, most players would find that unacceptable. Hell, any player that started MMO gaming after 2000 would be scratching their heads as to why such a system would ever have been considered a good idea. You can chalk it up to the evolution of MMO's, there's just not a huge crowd out their clamoring for full loot. Off the top of my head, Pathfinder would be a game to watch as there is corpse looting in it. Im not 100% sure that you can loot equipment(I think there's an insurance system or something in place) but its a non consensual pvp, player driven game. 

    image
  • KilrainKilrain Prineville, ORPosts: 684Member Uncommon
    non carebear or hardcore != pvp

    professional web programming and design.

  • xxtriadxxxxtriadxx TherePosts: 134Member Uncommon

    I suppose it can be said then that thievery is dead as well?

    IMO the two best "classes" in UO where Thieves and Detectives...both dead in EA UO now.

    I was hoping to see a rebirth of both....oh well..

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