Originally posted by Anavalar One thing most Skyrim players who don't play MMOs are probably forgetting is that ESO will exist in REAL TIME. That means if you are a vampire there will be no clicking on some "wait 12 hours" dialogue box and then immediately heading out into the night to harvest victims. YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO PLAY OUTDOORS FOR HALF OF ALL GAMETIME. Looks like ESO is gonna suck for vampires.
I haven't looked too much into vampirism in Skyrim, but I remember in Oblivion, the more you feed, the weaker your advantages and disadvantages become, e.g., when fully fed you can interact with townspeople and walk in daylight, but you lose the massive bonuses that being a starving vampire grant you.
It works in the single player games, because balance isn't all that important. They can make it super powerful and the only one it affects is the player. Even in the games they have disadvantages but they are disadvantages in other areas of the game. If you look at the disadvantages of being a vampire in Skyrim, most of it has nothing to do with combat and the weakness to fire is offset by a similar resistance applied to frost.
They have a lot more restrictions in a multiplayer game. If they make it too powerful everyone will want to be one, if they make it too weak no one will. What makes being a vampire or werewolf fun isn't because of how you look, it is because you are a badass. If you aren't a total badass what is the point, it becomes nothing more than a midgame race change with very little implications. Also some of the restrictions are kind of hard to implement in an MMORPG. In a solo game I can just rest until it is night time, in a multiplayer game everyone is on a shared clock and having severe penalties for being in sunlight would basically lock people out of whole sections of the game. But a vampire without any penalties for daylight doesn't feel much like a vampire.
I think that if they can't get it right, they should just stay away from it and make werewolves and vampires nothing more than mobs you kill.
I would push for having some sort of rare random spawn to give it out. Only one of each, too. A strange bat and wolf that roam only at night hunting/attacking players to give them this dark gift or curse. Make it something special, something exciting and pretty damn terrifying to get. Just don't cheapen the experience.
I cannot see any practical way of implementing this in an MMO, other than having it as a "race change" with some mild implications with regards to NPC's. If there is any meaningful advantage to be had, it will become almost obligatory, especially if it confers an advantage in PVP.
Even if vampires are forced to sleep for half their game time (to compensate for their power advantage at night), a player will just login to their non-vampire alt during "daytime".
Some single-player game concepts just cannot be ported to MMO's without be changed so much that they become meaningless.
The balance could be easy , Vampires = death in sunlight, you better find a cave or basement to sit out the day. Werewolf, back to tradition , ONLY during Full moons. 1-3 days / game month? or whatever full moon is equal to in game.
This right here + randomly chosen player to get attacked / 'infected' by either, not a choice given. Should be a super rare occurrence (like an RNG that randomly picks few players a month).
Check out http://t.co/GTErET4g7q (ShoddyCast) it has some information about balance with the Vampire and Warewolf classes. ie: Vampires being more vulnerable to fire and some other new information.
Dude, you are addressing a problem that does not exist. There are already limitations and 'consequences' to being a Were or Vamp, in the Elder Scroll series. Vamps get nerfed and damaged by sunlight. Must feed regularly or become obviously a vamp and have to deal with the negative reaction from npcs. Weres have a limited duration for controlled changes and lose all armor buffs. And are vulnerable once they change back, due to having no weapons or armor at hand. Can't loot, and can't pass through instances. Also suffers immediate aggressive attacks from npcs.
Really, not sure why you found the need to address this article to these issues. I would have used this to hypothesize on how one would contract the conditions and how one would cure themselves if they so choose to.
At least that is what I would have done with this article.
I found the werewolf side in Skyrim to be lackluster. Even with the Dawnguard adding abilities, the bonuses weren't enough for the downsides, even though there weren't that many downsides. I don't know how much you need to make Werewolf any more 'rare' than that. It just wasn't that useful (and your skills didn't go up when using it). Very limited duration, no skill ups, npc's hate you, no healing unless you eat someone, etc... bleh. Boring.
Vampire in Skyrim was cooler, but it still ended up being.... annoying. Always needing to feed, sunlight nerfing you, bonuses again, pretty lackluster except when you went against cold-based creatures.
Vampire-Lords, I don't expect in ESO.
I remember the pain in the butt it was to get cured in Oblivion, that was a nightmare quest.
I also remember accidentally becoming a were-boar in one of the earlier elder scrolls, and how annoying THAT was.
I am the compete opposite of you.
I loved how you couldn't be healed unless you fed, I love having the populace hate you. I installed a mod that made the sun very dangerous to my vampire character.
to me, it's this stuff that not only adds flavor but also make you make hard decisions.
Some of my best times in Skyrim (on my vampire character) was knowing I was doing a quest but also knowing the sun would come up soon.
Heck, one of my best times in Morrowind was flying over the landscape desperately looking for a cave or any shelter because I was trying to beat sunrise.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Dude, you are addressing a problem that does not exist. There are already limitations and 'consequences' to being a Were or Vamp, in the Elder Scroll series. Vamps get nerfed and damaged by sunlight. Must feed regularly or become obviously a vamp and have to deal with the negative reaction from npcs. Weres have a limited duration for controlled changes and lose all armor buffs. And are vulnerable once they change back, due to having no weapons or armor at hand. Can't loot, and can't pass through instances. Also suffers immediate aggressive attacks from npcs.
Really, not sure why you found the need to address this article to these issues. I would have used this to hypothesize on how one would contract the conditions and how one would cure themselves if they so choose to.
At least that is what I would have done with this article.
And are you sure those limitations will be added to ESO?
Because I'm not. Are you saying that it's beyond the pale that the developers might mitigate some of the downsides such as damage by sunlight? I seem to remember in Skyrim that vampires can go out in the sunlight and not be turned to ash.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Why not perks that could decrease the negative effects of sunlight or silver or some that extend the duration of a transformation or increase hunter abilities... I.e. a werewolve perk to track enemies by scent or being able to zoom in their vision to see further as well as in the dark. A vampire could track prey or enemies in the dark by their heartbeats as usual but increase the range, transparency of prey and detection status.
I found the werewolf side in Skyrim to be lackluster. Even with the Dawnguard adding abilities, the bonuses weren't enough for the downsides, even though there weren't that many downsides. I don't know how much you need to make Werewolf any more 'rare' than that. It just wasn't that useful (and your skills didn't go up when using it). Very limited duration, no skill ups, npc's hate you, no healing unless you eat someone, etc... bleh. Boring.
Vampire in Skyrim was cooler, but it still ended up being.... annoying. Always needing to feed, sunlight nerfing you, bonuses again, pretty lackluster except when you went against cold-based creatures.
Vampire-Lords, I don't expect in ESO.
I remember the pain in the butt it was to get cured in Oblivion, that was a nightmare quest.
I also remember accidentally becoming a were-boar in one of the earlier elder scrolls, and how annoying THAT was.
I am the compete opposite of you.
I loved how you couldn't be healed unless you fed, I love having the populace hate you. I installed a mod that made the sun very dangerous to my vampire character.
to me, it's this stuff that not only adds flavor but also make you make hard decisions.
Some of my best times in Skyrim (on my vampire character) was knowing I was doing a quest but also knowing the sun would come up soon.
Heck, one of my best times in Morrowind was flying over the landscape desperately looking for a cave or any shelter because I was trying to beat sunrise.
I had all the vampire-in-the-sun-dies-quick fun in Oblivion, where it wasn't a mod, it was the game itself. It stopped being interesting, and just became annoying. Waiting for night to be able to step outside and fast travel, then either a) hope you got to the location during the night, and you're fine, or b) run into the nearest building and press 'T' to wait till night.
I'd like to see a good challenge. I want to but a lot of effort into becoming a Warewolf or a vampire I want it to be the biggest pain in the ass to do. excuse my french. but this way the satisfaction will be awesome.
I don't want EVERYONE being a vampire or werewolf either; but I also don't want Zenimax making it a headache to be one because every being in the game is against these character types.
I think the challenge to being these classes should just come from being one. Is not having to feed on blood and various other things enough? Is not having a feral instinct that emerges during the night challenging enough?
I think that when playing as a Vampire and a Werewolf, their urges need to be uncontrollable; represented by a (seeing red) vision on screen that makes anybody that is not of the same nature or protected, an enemy and susceptible to attack by the supernatural player. To force this, the vamp played character (for example) should start to emit a drain life aura that shows health being drawn from their team mates and NPC (enemies/friendlies). Such a circumstance would literally make players want you to get away from them; forcing a real life vampire fear/aggressive reaction. And this would be a curse the player (that is the vamp) can't help, therefore they need to maintain their feedings or be forced to eat their friends or be cut down by them. The perk for the vamp is an expanded life bar at the expense of his/her teammates. So a vampire would have to really be careful not to kill his fellow adventurers. Players that purchase warding items i.e. a cross, or wearing blessed silver would be able to keep vamps from feeding on them. This can be beneficial in allowing friends that want to team up but one is human while the other is supernatural.
A Werewolf would have similar drawbacks. Because of the intimidation a werewolf is known for instilling in others, by not isolating themselves or feeding on bloody meat before fully changing will force them into a savage rage and put large negatives on the teams stats if the werewolf remains on the team in close proximity. However these negatives become bonuses for the werewolf causing it and get added to his/her stats.
To aid in regulating or fighting these deadly urges, a vampire player should have the perk BURIAL (that has a 2 hour in-game recharge) ability to dig a grave in their current area and bury themselves until the blood thirst calms down, and they can get to other options of blood. Once a player uses this perk, though, they are unable to move or attack their character for a full minute, and should be particular about doing it in public areas since they will be considered in a deep sleep. However, the blood thirst state will not disappear until the player has properly fed. A human team player can volunteer to feed the vampire player if they so choose.
Werewolves that go into a rage around their teammates should have the perk SAVAGE MOON (that has a 2 hour in-game recharge) that places them in a moon seal cage, that will not allow them to move or attack for a full minute. During this time the transformation can be allowed to calm down, but not necessarily revert them to "human form" if the transformation has been extended by previous feedings. Or it can allow players to get away until the transformation has ran it's course.
I just don't think it can work well. If they can't do it right they should stay away.
In a single player game they can balance superior combat abilities with non-combat based penalties, but in an MMORPG you can't have any one player superior in combat, regardless of any non-combat penalties. Of course they could make it so they are just ordinary in combat but I'm not sure that would be very exciting to play, nor would it feel very much like you were playing a vampire or werewolf without that sense of power. Applying a debuff to nearby friendly players that makes them suck at the expense of you becoming more powerfull would not be fun for the other players on your team, it also doesn't compensate for 1 vs. 1, nor does it handle things like a full werewolf group etc... etc... etc...
I have yet to hear any way they could implement this in a way that would work.
This is going to be a real prickly issue, special powers which only some players have always are. How will they fit into class skills, how often can they be used and so on. Presumably vampires won't start to look monstrous and have to stay outside of cities.
They will probably go easymode: Top level class abilities will be better than being a vampire and there will be very limited gameplay effect to you being one. You certainly won't have npc's remembering you turned into a werewolf and so on.
I could be wrong but all MMOs are built one way now. It is all about choice without consequences, if ESO takes another road then well done but I won't be holding my breathe.
This is going to be a real prickly issue, special powers which only some players have always are. How will they fit into class skills, how often can they be used and so on. Presumably vampires won't start to look monstrous and have to stay outside of cities.
They will probably go easymode: Top level class abilities will be better than being a vampire and there will be very limited gameplay effect to you being one. You certainly won't have npc's remembering you turned into a werewolf and so on.
I could be wrong but all MMOs are built one way now. It is all about choice without consequences, if ESO takes another road then well done but I won't be holding my breathe.
I really hope they don't screw it up. I would rather not have them playable than have lame vampires and werewolves.
Don't forget the social drawback! It would be very ahistoric if werewolf packs and vampire troops would fight alongside the heroes of the alliances. I think the beasts must be the enemies of everybody. There could be werewolf clans, vampire clans, and vampire hunter clans. And this could be a profitable job to hunt the werewolf and vampira characters. There could be an other war behind the curtain where the hunters, the wolfs and the vampires fight each other. I would welcome zones in the home provences, where this three 'clans' could fight against each other, but being the member of the same alliance. For example there could be some sacred forests for werewolfs, cemeteries for vampires, abandoned or not abandoned villages, caves, ruins . . . where killing each other would be enabled. At the border of these areas there would be signs to warn the traveller, that in this place she/he could be the prey or the hunter. I can imagine even quests, where this groups must fight each other, and only one (or one group can solve the quest.) For example the vampire can get the quest to kill the druid in the cave, but the hunter get the quest in the village alert and rescue him. . . .
Originally posted by Sinusgamma Don't forget the social drawback! It would be very ahistoric if werewolf packs and vampire troops would fight alongside the heroes of the alliances. I think the beasts must be the enemies of everybody. There could be werewolf clans, vampire clans, and vampire hunter clans. And this could be a profitable job to hunt the werewolf and vampira characters. There could be an other war behind the curtain where the hunters, the wolfs and the vampires fight each other. I would welcome zones in the home provences, where this three 'clans' could fight against each other, but being the member of the same alliance. For example there could be some sacred forests for werewolfs, cemeteries for vampires, abandoned or not abandoned villages, caves, ruins . . . where killing each other would be enabled. At the border of these areas there would be signs to warn the traveller, that in this place she/he could be the prey or the hunter. I can imagine even quests, where this groups must fight each other, and only one (or one group can solve the quest.) For example the vampire can get the quest to kill the druid in the cave, but the hunter get the quest in the village alert and rescue him. . . .
First I wanted to write that the Vampire and Werewolf idea is realy lame and drilled in every corner - In my opinion the worst idea that The Elder Scrolls could came out in Skyrim ! But reading your post it started to sound like a good idea !
- I think that in Skyrim was good idea about gods ! You could do different quest and recive even permanent blessings with good options ! So remebering one old but with unique idea RPG "Loki" ! There was God system - you made sacrifise to specific god and you could learn skills passive and active ! So why couldn't make something like that in ESO as there already are god system why couldn't it be made like that !? For example in "loki" you could sacrifice items but in ESO you could collect souls in soul gems and charge up (like items) god trust (something like leveling every next level harder to charge) and if higher god trust than new skills you can obtain (ofcourse every god got his own skill tree)
Comments
I haven't looked too much into vampirism in Skyrim, but I remember in Oblivion, the more you feed, the weaker your advantages and disadvantages become, e.g., when fully fed you can interact with townspeople and walk in daylight, but you lose the massive bonuses that being a starving vampire grant you.
It works in the single player games, because balance isn't all that important. They can make it super powerful and the only one it affects is the player. Even in the games they have disadvantages but they are disadvantages in other areas of the game. If you look at the disadvantages of being a vampire in Skyrim, most of it has nothing to do with combat and the weakness to fire is offset by a similar resistance applied to frost.
They have a lot more restrictions in a multiplayer game. If they make it too powerful everyone will want to be one, if they make it too weak no one will. What makes being a vampire or werewolf fun isn't because of how you look, it is because you are a badass. If you aren't a total badass what is the point, it becomes nothing more than a midgame race change with very little implications. Also some of the restrictions are kind of hard to implement in an MMORPG. In a solo game I can just rest until it is night time, in a multiplayer game everyone is on a shared clock and having severe penalties for being in sunlight would basically lock people out of whole sections of the game. But a vampire without any penalties for daylight doesn't feel much like a vampire.
I think that if they can't get it right, they should just stay away from it and make werewolves and vampires nothing more than mobs you kill.
people tend to forget there is underworld too
"believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid and i did it anyway!"
Vamps and Werewolves have been a part of Elder Scrolls for a while now. Way before Twilight.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I cannot see any practical way of implementing this in an MMO, other than having it as a "race change" with some mild implications with regards to NPC's. If there is any meaningful advantage to be had, it will become almost obligatory, especially if it confers an advantage in PVP.
Even if vampires are forced to sleep for half their game time (to compensate for their power advantage at night), a player will just login to their non-vampire alt during "daytime".
Some single-player game concepts just cannot be ported to MMO's without be changed so much that they become meaningless.
This right here + randomly chosen player to get attacked / 'infected' by either, not a choice given. Should be a super rare occurrence (like an RNG that randomly picks few players a month).
Really?
Dude, you are addressing a problem that does not exist. There are already limitations and 'consequences' to being a Were or Vamp, in the Elder Scroll series. Vamps get nerfed and damaged by sunlight. Must feed regularly or become obviously a vamp and have to deal with the negative reaction from npcs. Weres have a limited duration for controlled changes and lose all armor buffs. And are vulnerable once they change back, due to having no weapons or armor at hand. Can't loot, and can't pass through instances. Also suffers immediate aggressive attacks from npcs.
Really, not sure why you found the need to address this article to these issues. I would have used this to hypothesize on how one would contract the conditions and how one would cure themselves if they so choose to.
At least that is what I would have done with this article.
I am the compete opposite of you.
I loved how you couldn't be healed unless you fed, I love having the populace hate you. I installed a mod that made the sun very dangerous to my vampire character.
to me, it's this stuff that not only adds flavor but also make you make hard decisions.
Some of my best times in Skyrim (on my vampire character) was knowing I was doing a quest but also knowing the sun would come up soon.
Heck, one of my best times in Morrowind was flying over the landscape desperately looking for a cave or any shelter because I was trying to beat sunrise.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
And are you sure those limitations will be added to ESO?
Because I'm not. Are you saying that it's beyond the pale that the developers might mitigate some of the downsides such as damage by sunlight? I seem to remember in Skyrim that vampires can go out in the sunlight and not be turned to ash.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I had all the vampire-in-the-sun-dies-quick fun in Oblivion, where it wasn't a mod, it was the game itself. It stopped being interesting, and just became annoying. Waiting for night to be able to step outside and fast travel, then either a) hope you got to the location during the night, and you're fine, or b) run into the nearest building and press 'T' to wait till night.
Got old real quick.
I don't want EVERYONE being a vampire or werewolf either; but I also don't want Zenimax making it a headache to be one because every being in the game is against these character types.
I think the challenge to being these classes should just come from being one. Is not having to feed on blood and various other things enough? Is not having a feral instinct that emerges during the night challenging enough?
I think that when playing as a Vampire and a Werewolf, their urges need to be uncontrollable; represented by a (seeing red) vision on screen that makes anybody that is not of the same nature or protected, an enemy and susceptible to attack by the supernatural player. To force this, the vamp played character (for example) should start to emit a drain life aura that shows health being drawn from their team mates and NPC (enemies/friendlies). Such a circumstance would literally make players want you to get away from them; forcing a real life vampire fear/aggressive reaction. And this would be a curse the player (that is the vamp) can't help, therefore they need to maintain their feedings or be forced to eat their friends or be cut down by them. The perk for the vamp is an expanded life bar at the expense of his/her teammates. So a vampire would have to really be careful not to kill his fellow adventurers. Players that purchase warding items i.e. a cross, or wearing blessed silver would be able to keep vamps from feeding on them. This can be beneficial in allowing friends that want to team up but one is human while the other is supernatural.
A Werewolf would have similar drawbacks. Because of the intimidation a werewolf is known for instilling in others, by not isolating themselves or feeding on bloody meat before fully changing will force them into a savage rage and put large negatives on the teams stats if the werewolf remains on the team in close proximity. However these negatives become bonuses for the werewolf causing it and get added to his/her stats.
To aid in regulating or fighting these deadly urges, a vampire player should have the perk BURIAL (that has a 2 hour in-game recharge) ability to dig a grave in their current area and bury themselves until the blood thirst calms down, and they can get to other options of blood. Once a player uses this perk, though, they are unable to move or attack their character for a full minute, and should be particular about doing it in public areas since they will be considered in a deep sleep. However, the blood thirst state will not disappear until the player has properly fed. A human team player can volunteer to feed the vampire player if they so choose.
Werewolves that go into a rage around their teammates should have the perk SAVAGE MOON (that has a 2 hour in-game recharge) that places them in a moon seal cage, that will not allow them to move or attack for a full minute. During this time the transformation can be allowed to calm down, but not necessarily revert them to "human form" if the transformation has been extended by previous feedings. Or it can allow players to get away until the transformation has ran it's course.
I just don't think it can work well. If they can't do it right they should stay away.
In a single player game they can balance superior combat abilities with non-combat based penalties, but in an MMORPG you can't have any one player superior in combat, regardless of any non-combat penalties. Of course they could make it so they are just ordinary in combat but I'm not sure that would be very exciting to play, nor would it feel very much like you were playing a vampire or werewolf without that sense of power. Applying a debuff to nearby friendly players that makes them suck at the expense of you becoming more powerfull would not be fun for the other players on your team, it also doesn't compensate for 1 vs. 1, nor does it handle things like a full werewolf group etc... etc... etc...
I have yet to hear any way they could implement this in a way that would work.
Don't laugh too soon, that may turn into a reality.
This is going to be a real prickly issue, special powers which only some players have always are. How will they fit into class skills, how often can they be used and so on. Presumably vampires won't start to look monstrous and have to stay outside of cities.
They will probably go easymode: Top level class abilities will be better than being a vampire and there will be very limited gameplay effect to you being one. You certainly won't have npc's remembering you turned into a werewolf and so on.
I could be wrong but all MMOs are built one way now. It is all about choice without consequences, if ESO takes another road then well done but I won't be holding my breathe.
I really hope they don't screw it up. I would rather not have them playable than have lame vampires and werewolves.
First I wanted to write that the Vampire and Werewolf idea is realy lame and drilled in every corner - In my opinion the worst idea that The Elder Scrolls could came out in Skyrim ! But reading your post it started to sound like a good idea !
- I think that in Skyrim was good idea about gods ! You could do different quest and recive even permanent blessings with good options ! So remebering one old but with unique idea RPG "Loki" ! There was God system - you made sacrifise to specific god and you could learn skills passive and active ! So why couldn't make something like that in ESO as there already are god system why couldn't it be made like that !? For example in "loki" you could sacrifice items but in ESO you could collect souls in soul gems and charge up (like items) god trust (something like leveling every next level harder to charge) and if higher god trust than new skills you can obtain (ofcourse every god got his own skill tree)
Hmm, this is a three faction system... Zombies anyone?!?
Who wants to be a zombie?!?