Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

It's the little things

2»

Comments

  • SavijSavij NottPosts: 341Member
    Originally posted by wghtopside

    Also let us not forget that Eldar are aliens, they have no connections to any kind of elves whatsoever.

    maybe the very first eldar were elves and just evolved to what they are now? but well dont want to disturb your discussion :D

    be always up to date about Eternal Crusade
    WH40k:EC dev Tracker

    Other EC Sites i'm in:
    Dakkadakka Savij
    Reddit EC Savij1337
    EternalCrusader.com Savij

  • grigdushergrigdusher arezzo, AKPosts: 136Member Uncommon

    -WARNING head canon not war 40k canon-

     

    eldar (before fall eldar ) come in the ancient time and visiting earth and human make legend about "elf" and the warp become "magic" for the ancient human (remember human have psyker in the past the emperor is born form the reincarnation of many shaman/psyker), all the fantasy the demon, orc etc etc it's only an ancentral memory of meeting with alien race.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

     

    in the past a theory say that warhammer fantasy it's a planet in the 40k galaxy stuck in a warp storm, but this teory was retconned.

    the "terra" of war 40k it's our earth in the future (terra is the italian/latin world for earth). But the war fantasy world it's not earth. 

     

     

     

    war 40K Eternal Crusade: refferal 4$ bonus: EC-9Y7IAZJ8UZN6I http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-9Y7IAZJ8UZN6I

  • quotheravingquotheraving WorthingPosts: 279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by wghtopside

    I personally don't get how do you say that official book does wrong on portraying the fighting style of eldar, and you base your point on your vision on the sources from which it was inspired.

    Are you saying that Eldar (or every fiction race) should behavelook exactly like some mix of real human cultures and not bring something by themselves? If so, that is wrong.

     

    Of course I'm not saying that and if you carefully read the OP you may notice this part.

     

    "Now I realise that this game is set in the 41st millennium and some anachronistic martial style would be distracting and a bit daft, but it would be great to see different units fighting in very different ways, more in keeping with their natures and lore."

     

    That doesn't mean that inspiration can't be drawn from a range of different martial styles brought together around the concept of a style inspired in part by scorpions.

    In imagining how this may be achieved I have employed illustrations from Chinese martial arts since they best exemplify a wide range of different sword techniques and so it was easy to find one that came close enough for my purposes.

    The same (or very similar) postures can also be found in western sword fighting, though getting good pictures to illustrate what I mean using only western sources would be very difficult.

     

     

    The book the path of the warrior really concentrates more on the character and tends to gloss over the fighting... in short there is no way to extract a definite martial style for the scorpions from the book since so little is actually explicit. Therefore I'm not arguing that the style portrayed therein is wrong as there is very little in the way of a definite style portrayed to take offence at.

     

    There is however some information about the Striking scorpions fighting form worth noting especially since you consider this book "official".

     

    1. There is a heavy emphasis on standing meditations just like the chinese internal martial arts (zhan zhuang).

    2. They use breath control as part of training just like the chinese internal martial arts (Qi Gung).

    3. They have an open hand martial form composed of 27 basic postures with descriptive names such as falling storm, sting from shadows, the whisper of death, surging wave and rising claw, something that is common in the eastern martial arts, but bears particular comparison to the yang short form of tai chi which has 37 basic moves, maybe coincidence, maybe homage. You will also note the scorpion inspiration showing through again in sting from shadows and rising claw further adding reinforcement to my thesis that the fighting form is supposed to be scorpion inspired.

    4. The martial form is performed slowly with an emphasis on balance and power just like the chinese internal arts.

    5. The martial form includes blade hand strikes (strikes with the fingertips).

     

    Here is a description of this form from the training of Korlandril, the main character in the book..

     

    "Korlandril shifted position with controlled slowness, bending almost double while he eased his left foot forward yet kept his weight on his back leg, left arm raised above his head, right arm crooked by his side.

    Taking a pace forward, he shifted his balance, thrusting forward with his right arm, sweeping outwards with the left hand. To finish, he straightened, left arm curving up infront of him, right arm held back."

     

    I've had a bash at recreating this and come up with something which looks suspiciously like shaolin kung fu, especially the low bent almost double section though the fact that it is described as being performed with deliberate slowness makes it sound like Gav was drawing inspiration from tai chi. The large number of other parallels only add to this conclusion.

    The problem is that while it looks martial artsy it is impossible to root it in a practical application, it could be practically anything.

     

    My criticism of Gav's martial understanding is simply the critique of a martial artist reading a piece of fiction which does a poor job of describing practical combat, it's just the same as if you were interested in the politics of a situation but all that was reported was "and then the conflict was resolved".. you would be left unsatisfied and wondering how it had taken place.

    image

  • quotheravingquotheraving WorthingPosts: 279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by windbringer

    From what I have read and what people have said after talking to gamesworkshop people the eldar fighting style is based on European sword fighting of the middle ages, fencing, and a small amount of Japanese sword fighting.

     

    I'd be interested in hearing where you read that if that is the case.

     

    Alas i have no link as i was talking to someone who went to gamesday through an in game chat.

     

    So just some random guy you met? 

     

    According to him he was told that they based(or at least pictured) the Eldar fighting style on three main sources: European sword fighting. professional fencing, and Japanese sword fighting.

     

    Hmm I would say that he doesn't have a clue - for a number of reasons.

    Firstly Professional fencing is designed around piercing weapons, and features long lunges designed to pierce the opponents vital organs (or score points by touching body areas relating to these).

    This style is completely unsuited to the fictional chainsword since the foil, epee, rapier and sabre are all ideally suited to stabbing (as you can see here)  whereas the chainsword is totally incapable of stabbing effectively since the teeth would 'walk' the point across the opponent causing the sword to skitter across armor without properly cutting.

    Just ask any tree surgeon what happens when you get the point of a chainsaw hitting a tree... it's the first thing they learn not to do if they want to keep from chainsawing themselves up.

     

    The chainsword really demands a sweeping style of attack more like a scimitar, cavalry sabre or dao as it is clearly designed for cutting.

     

    As for Japanese sword fighting (kenjutsu or the sport kendo) this typically relies upon a two handed grip, though it occasionally is employed in a single hand, usually in conjunction with the companion sword (wakizashi). However in both these cases the fighter adopts a very distinct upright stance with the weight almost 100% in the rear leg, most often with the katana held over the head pointing backwards (though there are 4 other basic stances, none of which are seen in the scorpion figures).

     

     

    Most fighting styles are meant to be used against someone using the same techniques so in the end the way Eldar fight would look a lot different then most fighting styles we have today so the devs have a lot of freedom to make it unique even if they base it on a set fighting style.

    Most true martial fighting styles are intended to be used against an enemy and you can guarantee that they won't have gone to the same school as you.

    You will however practise against other people using the same style as yourself, but they aren't generally trying to kill you.

    But I agree, and as I said it would be weird if they just used an anachronistic eastern style. But again that doesn't mean that inspiration can't be drawn from a whole range of different sources, I just happen to think that it would be great if in recognition of the Aspect shrines having been inspired by the Chinese animal styles of kung-fu there was some attention paid to making the fictional fighting style of each aspect similarly draw inspiration from the animal or myth it is based on.

     

    Some of you seem to be trying to twist what I'm saying to use as convenient straw men and are misrepresenting my saying "Hey the aspect shrines are inspired by the chinese kung fu styles in general so wouldn't it be cool if they did a similar thing and seemed to be based on how that animal fights or other qualities of that animal or myth!" as me saying "Let's make the aspect shrines do kung-fu!", which I most certainly am not.

    So just to make it perfectly clear.

     

    My point is that it would be great if the developers put some thought into how the different units fought and tried to make each unique, distinct and characterful in a manner that is in keeping with their role, description in lore and weapons.

    In the case of the Aspect shrines I think it would be great if they seemed to recognizably draw their inspiration from the animals and myths of the Eldar that they get their names from.

     

    I'd say that on the whole the western elements - the runes, mythical creatures and some gods tend to have been used to furnish the cultural parts of the Eldar background while the eastern elements are mainly used as inspiration for the spiritual, cultural and martial parts of the Eldar.

     

    The term Eldar or things similar is used in some very early German myths of elves,

    No it really isn't.

    As I pointed out the word 'Eldar' has completely different roots to anything connected with elves. It really only picked up this association when Tolkien used it.

     

     

     

    the modern German word for old is alt older would be alter: the first telling of tales to do with elves called them the older race or the old ones so its not to far fetched.

    And an english word for old is Elder --- but the fact that a modern word sounds a bit like a word used in fantasy literature means exactly nothing if one cannot show a clear connection.

     

     

     

    As to the name Eldar the elves were known for red hair hmm that's interesting.

    No It has nothing to do with elves!

    The Elves weren't known for having red hair since the old norse name "Eldar" is neither connected to elves, and only indirectly to the colour red since the word Eld specifically means burning or fire. I suspect that this is why Eldar was not an Anglosaxon name, after all who wants to be called burning hair! Now the Norse Eldar, that's a cool name- Warrior of Fire! Hell yeah!

    But I repeat, the name "Eldar" has nothing to do with elves in either the norse or anglo-saxon languages or myths.

     

    However the A/S word Aeld is where we get the name of the tree "Elder" from, possibly as the hollow stems from this tree were good for making fires.

     

     

     

    It is true they do have some Asian influence in some but not all of there runes and in the way aspect shrines are set up it is not 100% but they do have some eastern in them, i would say that they have a lot more Japanese influence in them then Chinese.

    There is clearly a lot of Japanese influence in the 40k Eldar, for instance the backpack mounted banner poles which some characters (Asurmen) have are directly ripped from the Japanese, but one thing the Japanese do not have are styles of martial arts inspired by animals or mythical beasts - that's definitely Chinese. 

     

    But again that is only tangentially connected to my basic point and reflects a recognition that this is where the creators of the Eldar in 40k drew their inspiration from in making the aspect shrines.

     

    So my question really is "Do you think that the Aspect shrines have distinct fighting styles inspired in part by their namesake creatures or myths and if not why not?" Afterall they seem to draw an awful lot of other inspiration from their namesakes, wings, mandibles, howling e.t.c.

     

     

    As to cultural arrogance: the Celts were called arrogant by the Romans, England had for a long time the same view the Eldar have for other races, and there are some connections to Nazi Germany and what they thought of the Slavic people in the whole thing so...

    Maybe you should take this up with the Warhammer wiki, they were just pointing out the near word for word similarity between an attitude voiced by a Chinese scholar and a sentiment often expressed by the Eldar in the fluff.

     

    I would be very interested in seeing some references for all this stuff you are claiming, especially the Celt's reactions to the Romans and the use of the word Eldar in germanic myths to denote elves.

     

     

     

    All in all they draw from a lot of different sources and it would be wrong to deny it. 

    Good, we are in agreement then :)

     

     

    It is true not a lot of authors have any grasp on martial arts of any kind he did not do to bad though and it could have been a lot worse.

    Well like I said I thought it was pretty good, I just wanted the fighting style of the aspect temple to be more coherent and well fleshed out  :)

     

     

    The scorpions are highly acrobatic all Eldar are, they may have heaver armour then banshees but they are still fast and highly agile.

     

    Yeah but not THAT acrobatic. 

    Acrobatic wire-fu fighting seems to be embedded in the popular consciousness now and is used as a kind of lazy short hand to depict any highly skilled combatant.

    The problem is that if you try and amp up the perceived skill in a combat to drive home the point that the fighters are really damn good by having the opponents flipping over this and that while landing strikes in mid air you will have nowhere to go when you actually need to depict the truly acrobatic combatants.

    Now to be fair Gav is guilty of this, but I can forgive him because the rest of the book is pretty good. But compare that to C.S.Goto who has a Terminator armored marine and a Dark reaper duelling in a flippy tumbly wire-fu style :(

    See what I mean?

     

    And that's kinda my point in a nutshell.. Seeing each unit fight in a manner in keeping with their battlefield role, armor and weapons can make a big difference.

    image

  • windbringerwindbringer midland, MIPosts: 16Member

    I personally don't get how do you say that official book does wrong on portraying the fighting style of eldar, and you base your point on your vision on the sources from which it was inspired.

    Are you saying that Eldar (or every fiction race) should behavelook exactly like some mix of real human cultures and not bring something by themselves? If so, that is wrong.

    Also let us not forget that Eldar are aliens, they have no connections to any kind of elves whatsoever.

    You cannot really argue with official Black Library book, because it gets reviewed and edited by officials, and this comes from a man who is not really fond of GW and does not like what they sometimes do to the lore. Yes, there are some really shitty books, but I don't have any issues with eldar ones so far.

     

    They are an alien race and they are unique so they are something that is different then any culture on earth.
    As to no connections to any elves at all as far as i know they are an alien race of elves or elf like beings so does that not make them elves of a kind or at least based on elves??
     
    Also i did not say the official rule books were wrong or that i had any issues with them in fact i like there image and am quite happy with it the way it is, i was merely trying to add to what quotheraving posted.
     
     
    Originally
    posted by quotheraving
    Originally posted by windbringer

    From what I have read and what people have said after talking to gamesworkshop people the eldar fighting style is based on European sword fighting of the middle ages, fencing, and a small amount of Japanese sword fighting.

     

    I'd be interested in hearing where you read that if that is the case.

     

    Alas i have no link as i was talking to someone who went to gamesday through an in game chat.

     

    So just some random guy you met? 

     

    I know the guy and he also had a few pics he took from the event, he said he talked to one of the the gamesworkshop designers for a few minutes(mostly about spacemarines)but he asked one or two questions about the Eldar.

    According to him he was told that they based(or at least pictured) the Eldar fighting style on three main sources: European sword fighting. professional fencing, and Japanese sword fighting.

     

    Hmm I would say that he doesn't have a clue - for a number of reasons.

    Firstly Professional fencing is designed around piercing weapons, and features long lunges designed to pierce the opponents vital organs (or score points by touching body areas relating to these).

    This style is completely unsuited to the fictional chainsword since the foil, epee, rapier and sabre are all ideally suited to stabbing (as you can see here)  whereas the chainsword is totally incapable of stabbing effectively since the teeth would 'walk' the point across the opponent causing the sword to skitter across armor without properly cutting.

    Just ask any tree surgeon what happens when you get the point of a chainsaw hitting a tree... it's the first thing they learn not to do if they want to keep from chainsawing themselves up.

     

    The chainsword really demands a sweeping style of attack more like a scimitar, cavalry sabre or dao as it is clearly designed for cutting.

     

    It was not just for striking scorpions but for the Eldar race as a whole also remember that at gamesworkshop logic is not the same for them as it is for others:-). You do make a good point here though stabbing someone with a chainsword would not end well.

     

    As for Japanese sword fighting (kenjutsu or the sport kendo) this typically relies upon a two handed grip, though it occasionally is employed in a single hand, usually in conjunction with the companion sword (wakizashi). However in both these cases the fighter adopts a very distinct upright stance with the weight almost 100% in the rear leg, most often with the katana held over the head pointing backwards (though there are 4 other basic stances, none of which are seen in the scorpion figures).

     

     

    I to don't see a lot similarities to the way the modals are posed or the lore and the Japanese style of sword fighting, but it is what he said so i guess the only way to know for sure would be to ask jes goodwin.

    Most fighting styles are meant to be used against someone using the same techniques so in the end the way Eldar fight would look a lot different then most fighting styles we have today so the devs have a lot of freedom to make it unique even if they base it on a set fighting style.

    Most true martial fighting styles are intended to be used against an enemy and you can guarantee that they won't have gone to the same school as you.

    You will however practise against other people using the same style as yourself, but they aren't generally trying to kill you.

    I meant more of a European swords man would not come up against a Japanese swords man, as well as in warhammer 40k there are a lot of different weapons and races that work and fight in completely different ways.

    But I agree, and as I said it would be weird if they just used an anachronistic eastern style. But again that doesn't mean that inspiration can't be drawn from a whole range of different sources, I just happen to think that it would be great if in recognition of the Aspect shrines having been inspired by the Chinese animal styles of kung-fu there was some attention paid to making the fictional fighting style of each aspect similarly draw inspiration from the animal or myth it is based on.

     

    I agree with you here in that they have some Chinese in the aspect shrines and animal influence in there fighting styles.

     

    I was merely trying to add that that there are some other styles of fighting that they draw from as well.

     

    Some of you seem to be trying to twist what I'm saying to use as convenient straw men and are misrepresenting my saying "Hey the aspect shrines are inspired by the chinese kung fu styles in general so wouldn't it be cool if they did a similar thing and seemed to be based on how that animal fights or other qualities of that animal or myth!" as me saying "Let's make the aspect shrines do kung-fu!", which I most certainly am not.

    So just to make it perfectly clear.

     

    My point is that it would be great if the developers put some thought into how the different units fought and tried to make each unique, distinct and characterful in a manner that is in keeping with their role, description in lore and weapons.

    In the case of the Aspect shrines I think it would be great if they seemed to recognizably draw their inspiration from the animals and myths of the Eldar that they get their names from.

     

    I agree with you here :-).

    I'd say that on the whole the western elements - the runes, mythical creatures and some gods tend to have been used to furnish the cultural parts of the Eldar background while the eastern elements are mainly used as inspiration for the spiritual, cultural and martial parts of the Eldar.

     

    The term Eldar or things similar is used in some very early German myths of elves,

    No it really isn't.

    As I pointed out the word 'Eldar' has completely different roots to anything connected with elves. It really only picked up this association when Tolkien used it.

     

    Well i put the the first part in as a joke of sorts and the few times i have seen the word eldar use were in books on folklore that i don't have right now so i will yield to you on this.

     

     

     

    As to the name Eldar the elves were known for red hair hmm that's interesting.

    No It has nothing to do with elves!

    The Elves weren't known for having red hair since the old norse name "Eldar" is neither connected to elves, and only indirectly to the colour red since the word Eld specifically means burning or fire. I suspect that this is why Eldar was not an Anglosaxon name, after all who wants to be called burning hair! Now the Norse Eldar, that's a cool name- Warrior of Fire! Hell yeah!

    But I repeat, the name "Eldar" has nothing to do with elves in either the norse or anglo-saxon languages or myths.

     

    However the A/S word Aeld is where we get the name of the tree "Elder" from, possibly as the hollow stems from this tree were good for making fires.

     

    I should have put one of these :-) or something else i pointed that out because i thought it was a amusing coincidence.

     

     

    It is true they do have some Asian influence in some but not all of there runes and in the way aspect shrines are set up it is not 100% but they do have some eastern in them, i would say that they have a lot more Japanese influence in them then Chinese.

    There is clearly a lot of Japanese influence in the 40k Eldar, for instance the backpack mounted banner poles which some characters (Asurmen) have are directly ripped from the Japanese, but one thing the Japanese do not have are styles of martial arts inspired by animals or mythical beasts - that's definitely Chinese. 

     

    I did not say they did not have some Chinese influence i just said that in some parts they had more Japanese influence, as well as the shrines them selves are more like Dojos then the monk temples of China as there are lots of little shrines that teach different things instead of one large one that teaches more then one thing.

    But again that is only tangentially connected to my basic point and reflects a recognition that this is where the creators of the Eldar in 40k drew their inspiration from in making the aspect shrines.

     

    So my question really is "Do you think that the Aspect shrines have distinct fighting styles inspired in part by their namesake creatures or myths and if not why not?" Afterall they seem to draw an awful lot of other inspiration from their namesakes, wings, mandibles, howling e.t.c.

     

    I would think so after all the aspect warriors are the embodiment of one aspect of war and so the striking scorpions are just that they fight like there namesake a small fast animal that strikes from the shadows with a deadly sting.

     

    As to cultural arrogance: the Celts were called arrogant by the Romans, England had for a long time the same view the Eldar have for other races, and there are some connections to Nazi Germany and what they thought of the Slavic people in the whole thing so...

    Maybe you should take this up with the Warhammer wiki, they were just pointing out the near word for word similarity between an attitude voiced by a Chinese scholar and a sentiment often expressed by the Eldar in the fluff.

     

    I would be very interested in seeing some references for all this stuff you are claiming, especially the Celt's reactions to the Romans and the use of the word Eldar in germanic myths to denote elves.

     

    I pointed that out to state that that part of the Wiki was mostly speculation.

     

    Other way around the Romans reactions to the Celts :-) i read this in a book on the history of the Celts from the local library i tried to find the quote on Google but i couldn't find it nor is it on Wikipedia so i would have to track down the book. 

     

    As for England its mostly in how the British empire treated the Asian cultures and how the rest of the world views Britain.

     

    And for the Nazi part i will not link to any sites as it tends to be against forum rules but if you want to learn more on that looking up Nazi Germanys views on the Slavic race and the term Untermensch would be the place to start.

     

    What do you mean the use of eldar to denote elves??

     

     

    All in all they draw from a lot of different sources and it would be wrong to deny it. 

    Good, we are in agreement then :)

     

    :-)

     

    It is true not a lot of authors have any grasp on martial arts of any kind he did not do to bad though and it could have been a lot worse.

    Well like I said I thought it was pretty good, I just wanted the fighting style of the aspect temple to be more coherent and well fleshed out  :)

     

    Same here :-).

     

    The scorpions are highly acrobatic all Eldar are, they may have heaver armour then banshees but they are still fast and highly agile.

     

    Yeah but not THAT acrobatic. 

    Acrobatic wire-fu fighting seems to be embedded in the popular consciousness now and is used as a kind of lazy short hand to depict any highly skilled combatant.

    The problem is that if you try and amp up the perceived skill in a combat to drive home the point that the fighters are really damn good by having the opponents flipping over this and that while landing strikes in mid air you will have nowhere to go when you actually need to depict the truly acrobatic combatants.

    Now to be fair Gav is guilty of this, but I can forgive him because the rest of the book is pretty good. But compare that to C.S.Goto who has a Terminator armored marine and a Dark reaper duelling in a flippy tumbly wire-fu style :(

    See what I mean?

     

    And that's kinda my point in a nutshell.. Seeing each unit fight in a manner in keeping with their battlefield role, armor and weapons can make a big difference.

    Again i agree with you. Wire-fu i have never heard of that before i assume you mean over the top movie Kung-fu? if so wire-fu fits it quite well.

    The mind of the Farseer is utterly inhuman in its depth and complexity. Without mercy or moral feeling, his consciousness stands upon the edge of spiritual destruction. That he does not fall must be a result of constraints and balances that only an Eldar could understand. To a mere Human it is yet another reminder that we are but children in comparison to that ancient and powerful race.

  • quotheravingquotheraving WorthingPosts: 279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by windbringer

    I should have put one of these :-) or something else i pointed that out because i thought it was a amusing coincidence.

    Yeah sorry I've probably spent too much time chatting on the internet and generally expect people to come out with some pretty daft things from time to time, though I try to use it as an opportunity to practise patience (often unsuccessfully) ... no offence meant and I'm happy to be wrong in your case.

     

     Yeah but not THAT acrobatic. 

    Acrobatic wire-fu fighting seems to be embedded in the popular consciousness now and is used as a kind of lazy short hand to depict any highly skilled combatant.

    The problem is that if you try and amp up the perceived skill in a combat to drive home the point that the fighters are really damn good by having the opponents flipping over this and that while landing strikes in mid air you will have nowhere to go when you actually need to depict the truly acrobatic combatants.

    Now to be fair Gav is guilty of this, but I can forgive him because the rest of the book is pretty good. But compare that to C.S.Goto who has a Terminator armored marine and a Dark reaper duelling in a flippy tumbly wire-fu style :(

    See what I mean?

     

    And that's kinda my point in a nutshell.. Seeing each unit fight in a manner in keeping with their battlefield role, armor and weapons can make a big difference.

    Again i agree with you. Wire-fu i have never heard of that before i assume you mean over the top movie Kung-fu? if so wire-fu fits it quite well.

    I read through path of the warrior again since we were talking about it (and scorpions fighting), but I couldn't find the acrobatic bit that I thought was in it... could be I was misremembering it or it could be that I've got it confused with another of his books,  meaning it's quite possible that all that bit is me having a brain fart... dammit now I'm going to have to re-read the other books to make sure lol.

     

     

    image

  • OniFeeZOniFeeZ CairnsPosts: 48Member

    While this would be interesting, I think people who would really notice it would be

    a) In the minority

    b) Probably wont be paying too much attention to it since they're trying to hack some poor Ork up.

    Personally though, if I was Miguel I'd have to ask myself whether it would really add to the game or would just be adding work to the animation riggers for the sake of it (if I'm adding Fencing_type_B to Scorpion for example, then that could be work that could be going into Choppa_Motion_1 for that Ork Nob) and if it's going to be so marginal as an end effect, then honestly I can't muster up the same enthusiasm for the idea as what you do.

    I will however strongly agree with you that any game is really expanded upon by adding those little touches, but in terms of manpower to create yours is hardly little.

    Sorry if that qualifies me as a Bean Counter, but I think they can do far better (and for far cheaper) with those little touches, like for  example, some nod towards major lore characters in the 40k universe like Eldrad or Abaddon for example. Or little touches like a faithful interpretation of the inside of a Space Marine drop pod, to really draw you in. Little touches to me = immersion.

  • quotheravingquotheraving WorthingPosts: 279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by OniFeeZ

    While this would be interesting, I think people who would really notice it would be

    a) In the minority

    b) Probably wont be paying too much attention to it since they're trying to hack some poor Ork up.

    Personally though, if I was Miguel I'd have to ask myself whether it would really add to the game or would just be adding work to the animation riggers for the sake of it (if I'm adding Fencing_type_B to Scorpion for example, then that could be work that could be going into Choppa_Motion_1 for that Ork Nob) and if it's going to be so marginal as an end effect, then honestly I can't muster up the same enthusiasm for the idea as what you do.

    I will however strongly agree with you that any game is really expanded upon by adding those little touches, but in terms of manpower to create yours is hardly little.

    Sorry if that qualifies me as a Bean Counter, but I think they can do far better (and for far cheaper) with those little touches, like for  example, some nod towards major lore characters in the 40k universe like Eldrad or Abaddon for example. Or little touches like a faithful interpretation of the inside of a Space Marine drop pod, to really draw you in. Little touches to me = immersion.

    I agree 100% that it's often little touches that really tip you into the experience and for you I guess that would be hints that the story takes place in a wider universe thanks to recognizable characters cropping up, but I disagree that having a clear idea of what one wants to achieve in advance of rigging animations and providing a mo cap actor with specific direction to achieve this would take extra manpower or be cost prohibitive.

    Sure, getting the Eldar animations looking characteristically alien would take some extra work, but then so would the animations for Orks or tyrannids.

     

    As I see it, it can be considered as a matter of attaching animations to certain weapons.

    Since each weapon (in the case of Eldar in particular) will be used mainly by a specific character class or sub class if the aspects are subsets of a warrior class, and each weapon will need to receive a set of animations specific to that weapon so that it looks right in game, then surely it is only a matter of forethought and planning to make the attacks with (for example) the Eldar chainsword / shuriken pistol / mandiblaster item set used by the Striking Scorpion aspect, or the power sword/ Shuriken pistol/ banshee mask item combination used by the Howling Banshees visually distinct in terms of fighting style?  

    Not much extra work in all, other than in terms of advance planning, but then proper planning does prevent piss poor performances by mo cap actors lol.

     

    I also disagree with the notion that the only people who would notice such things would be a minority.

    Everyone would notice that the different classes fought differently, though only a small subset of these may fully appreciate the extra care that had gone into representing the ferocity of a khorne berzerker or the stealthy finesse of an eldar striking scorpion. But even while they may not fully appreciate why these differences were being represented they would still be able to subconsciously recognise that these touches hinted at a more fully fleshed out world.

    image

  • OniFeeZOniFeeZ CairnsPosts: 48Member

    It's not about the ease of it being possible or not, programmatically it's pretty easy to add in another Animation call to the engine. It also isn't really difficult to get a mo cap artist in either, what it is though is costly (although I don't know the going rate for a mo cap actor for x hours), both in monetary value of an expense that doesn't need to be there (i.e., would it's absence really be 'missed'? How many people do you think would think to themselves: "Well, I enjoy these Eldar, but they really should have had different animations for each Aspect"?), and whatever requirements they have on getting gold release on time in schedule budget in terms of disk space for downloads or DVDetc, although animation rigging information is laughable in terms of space.

    To put it another way, I just think as far as priorities go, it should be right there down the bottom. That's not to say I wouldn't appreciate the effort, just that I think [i]comparatively[/i] speaking they could do more for less. In my example above, Abaddon nor Eldrad even need to have a presence in the game, just a nod to their existence is enough (after all, neither Abaddon nor Eldrad can appear on every battle in the 40k universe....) and would, as you said, tie it in to the rest of the mythos.

    Of course, you're right that people would notice more animations, but what I really meant is that I think that only a minority would particularly care to* really* notice, at least not to the point of saying: "Wow, I can totally see that they adopted the martial forms from Chinese sword fighting techniques"

    The long and short is that I'd rather they put in race specific, quality laden and noticeable animation motions for all races so that at a distance (if the model itself doesn't really 'grab' you for some reason) you can tell an Ork choppa choppin', or an Eldar Aspect Gracin', or a Space Marine bludgeonin' or a Frenzied Berzerker berzerkerin' and that they all look fantastic and capture the quality and theme for each race, but to have subtle and nuanced differences between Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks for example to be completely superfluous.

  • quotheravingquotheraving WorthingPosts: 279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by OniFeeZ

    It's not about the ease of it being possible or not, programmatically it's pretty easy to add in another Animation call to the engine. It also isn't really difficult to get a mo cap artist in either, what it is though is costly (although I don't know the going rate for a mo cap actor for x hours), both in monetary value of an expense that doesn't need to be there (i.e., would it's absence really be 'missed'? How many people do you think would think to themselves: "Well, I enjoy these Eldar, but they really should have had different animations for each Aspect"?), and whatever requirements they have on getting gold release on time in schedule budget in terms of disk space for downloads or DVDetc, although animation rigging information is laughable in terms of space.

    That is of course assuming that these animations were added after original animations had been made or that different weapons didn't require different animations, since as I pointed out all that is required to make a consideration like this practical would be forward planning and for the different aspects to each use different and distinct weapons (which blow me they do :) )

     

    To put it another way, I just think as far as priorities go, it should be right there down the bottom. That's not to say I wouldn't appreciate the effort, just that I think [i]comparatively[/i] speaking they could do more for less. In my example above, Abaddon nor Eldrad even need to have a presence in the game, just a nod to their existence is enough (after all, neither Abaddon nor Eldrad can appear on every battle in the 40k universe....) and would, as you said, tie it in to the rest of the mythos.

    Or as you say they could even be mentioned in passing, and you are right something like that is easy to achieve and comes down to a matter of writing. But that doesn't undermine my point that attention paid to racial animations and making these as true to the lore as possible wouldn't also be a good thing.

    The fact that it is easier to do X rather than Y is only ever really a convincing grounds for an argument when they are mutually exclusive choices.

     

    Voicing a personal preference also would only hold weight were you the sole audience and different players may well have different experiences and things that they would get warm fuzzies from seeing done well and have equally compelling arguments based on this.

    For instance - I may feel that since I am likely to see the fight animations on a much more regular basis than I would hear mention of Abaddon or Yriel or whoever, seeing attention paid to these animations would (in my eyes) be effort better spent than a largely irrelevant story aspect.

    That doesn't make me right, it is simply the other side of that particular coin, and one reason why such personal scales of preference can only be said to have meaning for the person who voices them. Which is kinda why I've been asking you lot what your personal preferences are regarding other small details :)

     

    Of course, you're right that people would notice more animations, but what I really meant is that I think that only a minority would particularly care to* really* notice, at least not to the point of saying: "Wow, I can totally see that they adopted the martial forms from Chinese sword fighting techniques"

    Which again isn't what I'm suggesting ... Why does everyone insist on telling me I'm saying that the aspect warriors should do kung fu? 

     

    What I've been saying is that:

    A) The aspect warrior shrines are clearly heavily inspired by the animal styles of Kung fu.

    B) The animal styles of Kung fu have fighting forms inspired by animal behavior and chinese myths (pheonix, sun wukong, dragons e.t.c.).

    C) Therefore it is reasonable to assert that the aspect shrines are also intended to have fighting styles inspired by animal behaviour and this assertion is strongly supported by the actual literature which portrays the Eldar SS aspect style of fighting in a manner highly suggestive of the internal martial arts with many of the moves in their fighting form having scorpion inspired names.

    D) So in order to best represent these in a way most in keeping with the lore each aspect shrine should have a fighting style that appears to reflect this animal/mythic inspiration.

     

    Sure only a minority would appreciate why this was the way it was or look at a move and say to themselves "Oh now that is cool, they've really thought about how that unit should fight!",  but the fact that they each fought in a recognisably distinct and different way would reinforce the idea that the aspect shrines represent different philosophical and practical approaches to warfare, even if the reasons for those differences were not apparent.

     

    The long and short is that I'd rather they put in race specific, quality laden and noticeable animation motions for all races so that at a distance (if the model itself doesn't really 'grab' you for some reason) you can tell an Ork choppa choppin', or an Eldar Aspect Gracin', or a Space Marine bludgeonin' or a Frenzied Berzerker berzerkerin' and that they all look fantastic and capture the quality and theme for each race, but to have subtle and nuanced differences between Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks for example to be completely superfluous.

    I agree about the racial differences, but just as you would want to see a tzeentch sorceror fighting differently from a khorne berzerker you would also expect the aspect warriors to fight differently, and as I pointed out the fact that they use different weapon sets makes this very achievable without the need for duplication of effort, since animations would most likely need to be rigged for the different weapons anyway.

    As for Warp spiders not fighting in a recognizably different way from swooping hawks? Well failing to achieve some stylistic difference between a warp jumping, bulky and sinister looking unit and a light, graceful, flying unit would be quite an achievement in it'self :)  

     

    I think you are right on the money when you  intimate that it's essentially a matter of a difference in quality, even if you avoid the conclusion that making classes distinct would be a step above simply making te races unique in terms of quality, but hey I'd rather not get too heavy handed and coercive with my argument, so I'll let the aspect thang drop for the time being, after-all there are any number of other small details where a little polish can make a big difference.

    image

  • OniFeeZOniFeeZ CairnsPosts: 48Member

    Here's what I think would be good 'little touches'

    • Discussions about other events within the 40k universe, such as the expansionist Tau (Imperial Guardsmen chatter for example), or worries about the rumours of a Tyranid vanguard fleet approaching system space. Maybe these chatty guardsmen could give hints about the next race to be included post-launch?!

    • Space Marine Chaplains going about their sermons

    • huddled survivors.

  • quotheravingquotheraving WorthingPosts: 279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by OniFeeZ

    Here's what I think would be good 'little touches'

    • Discussions about other events within the 40k universe, such as the expansionist Tau (Imperial Guardsmen chatter for example), or worries about the rumours of a Tyranid vanguard fleet approaching system space. Maybe these chatty guardsmen could give hints about the next race to be included post-launch?!

    • Space Marine Chaplains going about their sermons

    • huddled survivors.

    Hehe good stuff :)

     

    image

  • OniFeeZOniFeeZ CairnsPosts: 48Member

    I think this might be a bit beyond Behaviour Interactive in terms of what they want to do due to the game they want to make, but I really want them to make a world that looks 'lived in.' Or to put it in another way, a world where we have a vested interest in exploring byond just that of: "Enemy is here, kill them for lewt."

    Huddled survivors would help this, but at the same time it would be important to try and prevent it to become too depressing or anything. One of the major disappointments personally for me for Space Marine was that it was really quite spartan short of your squadmates and the occasional guardsman you run across, and while the story was that Graia's civilian population was completely wiped out before your arrival, that is something I don't want to see here if only because perhaps fighting for the civilians that remain (i.e., the Salamanders perhaps?) might be atmospheric, a valid mission topic for them at least and would help sell the dire straits of the situation (at least to me).

    This wouldn't be a 'little' touch by any stretch of the imagination though.

  • ivanj99ivanj99 Kal, ALPosts: 19Member
    I like your ideas and train of thought OP, +1 for constructive ideas and help in furthering a game you love!
  • quotheravingquotheraving WorthingPosts: 279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ivanj99
    I like your ideas and train of thought OP, +1 for constructive ideas and help in furthering a game you love!

    Aww thanks dude :) it's appreciated

    image

2»
Sign In or Register to comment.