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Where are all the tanks ?

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  • monochrome19monochrome19 Chicago, ILPosts: 453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Grailer
    Originally posted by monochrome19
    Originally posted by Aori
    Originally posted by monochrome19
    You truly do not need a tank until max level. I've heal-tanked just about every dungeon in this game. The dungeons are easy mode.

    I call BS.

    /shrug Call it what you want. Doesn't change the fact that it happened.

     

    Lol yeah sure you have heal tanked every dungeon . Maybe some trash pulls with 1 or 2 adds on you but not bosses.

     

    I don't think PS3 players could be successful tanks or even melee in this game . Some of the dungeons require ALOT of movement to avoid AOE  take for example 2nd boss  Dzemael Darkhold.  LOTS of moving around , fast movement . Faster than an analog control would allow imo .

    I play on PS3. And yes, I've healed through bosses. I like the controller, it constricts the amount of abilities you can use but once you get the hang of it its alright.

  • EdliEdli TiranaPosts: 941Member
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Will always be a problem in Trinity based games.  It's why I prefer either a larger group size (preferably 7-9) with 1 tank and 1 heal.  IMO it is the only way to fix the trinity.  Seeing as the most enjoyable classes are DPS.

    7-9 would be a mess IMO. Fewer people there are the more responsibility each party member will have. 

    However FFXIV should have went with 5 instead of 4. 1 tank/healer, 3 DPS would have fixed the queue a bit. Kinda hard changing it now, you have to redesign all the dungeons for that. 

     

  • Swedish_ChefSwedish_Chef of heroes, MSPosts: 213Member
    Originally posted by Ozivois
    This is what happens when a game is not made properly. If dps were more glass cannons like they should be you would see less of them and more healers and tanks.

    What? The game itself is made very well. It's MMO communities which are hard & unforgiving toward tanks and healers which prevent them from being more prevalent.

    Also DPS classes in FFXIV are fairly squishy; you're not going to be standing for long if you pull aggro.

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,289Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Swedish_Chef
    Originally posted by Ozivois
    This is what happens when a game is not made properly. If dps were more glass cannons like they should be you would see less of them and more healers and tanks.

    What? The game itself is made very well. It's MMO communities which are hard & unforgiving toward tanks and healers which prevent them from being more prevalent.

    Also DPS classes in FFXIV are fairly squishy; you're not going to be standing for long if you pull aggro.

    Especially as its usually SOP to allow any DPS'er who manages to pull agro away from the tank to get squished.. which can often be amazingly educational for the one involved image

  • PWN_FACEPWN_FACE SeoulPosts: 670Member
    Originally posted by Grailer

    Of course all this is useless if DPS start attacking mobs before you even use flash and focus fire on the mob that isn't even marked right ?

      

    You have described correct tanking as far as I understand it.

    You have also listed the most irritating thing DPS can do. I hate when they decide they want to go faster and start doing the pulling for you. /kick

     

     

  • crasset15crasset15 TallinnPosts: 183Member
    All the tanks are playing world of tanks.
  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,289Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PWN_FACE
    Originally posted by Grailer

    Of course all this is useless if DPS start attacking mobs before you even use flash and focus fire on the mob that isn't even marked right ?

      

    You have described correct tanking as far as I understand it.

    You have also listed the most irritating thing DPS can do. I hate when they decide they want to go faster and start doing the pulling for you. /kick

     

     

    true enough, the DPS' job is to take down the target fast, not draw aggro, and once tank loses aggro its hard to regain it, and split aggro is a group killer. Sometimes the situation demands that the DPS'ers take out the trash while the tank/healer focus on keeping the 'boss' away from them while they do it, but yeah, its easy to mess up as a DPS' as always have to watch which mob the group are focused on.image

  • GrailerGrailer HamiltonPosts: 876Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by PWN_FACE
    Originally posted by Grailer

    Of course all this is useless if DPS start attacking mobs before you even use flash and focus fire on the mob that isn't even marked right ?

      

    You have described correct tanking as far as I understand it.

    You have also listed the most irritating thing DPS can do. I hate when they decide they want to go faster and start doing the pulling for you. /kick

     

     

    true enough, the DPS' job is to take down the target fast, not draw aggro, and once tank loses aggro its hard to regain it, and split aggro is a group killer. Sometimes the situation demands that the DPS'ers take out the trash while the tank/healer focus on keeping the 'boss' away from them while they do it, but yeah, its easy to mess up as a DPS' as always have to watch which mob the group are focused on.image

    If the tank doesn't mark what mob he wants killed then DPS is a game of mind reading .

    But its easy to macro mark 1 or X or whatever.  DPS only really need 1 mark not 12345

    If a DPS attacks wrong mob I usually take agro back using provoke which puts tank at top of threat then a shield lob.

     

    However if they continue to attack wrong mob I have to let them take agro or the other mob which is marked will start killing the DPS on the correct target and then they would lose faith in my ability to hold agro which just cannot happen :)

    If the other DPS dies then all good , he will complain but I will just say stick to the marked target then no worries.

    If the DPS constantly steal agro from the marked target then its time to /leave usually happens when some guy with a +1 relic comes into a lower level group for some reason. 

    If you keep your weapon up to date you should have no trouble holding agro .  

     

    However this is a bit off topic ,  I still cant play my healer or DPS unless I want to wait obscene amounts of time . I basically gave up playing my healer at around level 30 because the wait time was at least 20 mins sometimes .

  • HusvikHusvik Somewhere, ONPosts: 440Member
    Originally posted by monochrome19
    Originally posted by Aori
    Originally posted by monochrome19
    You truly do not need a tank until max level. I've heal-tanked just about every dungeon in this game. The dungeons are easy mode.

    I call BS.

    /shrug Call it what you want. Doesn't change the fact that it happened.

    Highly doubtful.

  • koboldfodderkoboldfodder Danbury, DEPosts: 390Member Uncommon
    No you didn't.  You can get by the first three dungeons without a proper tank, but once you get to the next grouping and beyond you need tanks.
  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Grailer

    Why does no one play tanks in these types of games ? I've been waiting for over an hour for a group on my dps.

     

    I just don't understand why more people don't play tank class , is it hard or something ?

    Not hard, boring.

    It's a fact of trinity games you're just going to have to get used to. I can only think of one trinity-based MMO in recent years that didn't have a tank shortage, and that was WAR (which had a healer shortage instead). And that was primarily because a lot of people could play tanks like a DPS & look badass.

    The big problem w/ tanks & healers are they are dependent on others to get through content at a fast pace. They take forever to kill things, and for this reason most players find them boring. Unfortunately there's not a whole lot that can be don about that, unless you want a horribly imbalanced game. You can make tanks more interesting / fun (like lotro / rift did) but it doesn't guarantee they'll be popular.

    This problem then gets exaggerated by the fact that tanks tend to have the most pressure in the group. If they are bad, everyone knows it. And indeed most fights cannot be completed with a bad tank. This tends to lead to newer tanks getting yelled out of their role, and the game does a pretty poor job of teaching newer tanks how to play well. They then get to endgame, and either get expected to start doing some advanced tactics flawlessly (stun rotations / defensive rotations), or they find out that their class is pretty much useless atm (warrior).

    It's a problem that exists in all trinity games. While one the one hand, tanks get to group much easier than other archetypes; they are also mostly limited to dungeons / raiding in usefulness.

  • EdliEdli TiranaPosts: 941Member
    Originally posted by aesperus
    and the game does a pretty poor job of teaching newer tanks how to play well.

    Actually the game does a pretty good job to teach not only tanks but every class. If there is one thing FFXIV did right is the way it prepares the player for later harder dungeons via guildhests. 

  • IMBanksIMBanks Silver Spring, MDPosts: 75Member
    Originally posted by Edli
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Will always be a problem in Trinity based games.  It's why I prefer either a larger group size (preferably 7-9) with 1 tank and 1 heal.  IMO it is the only way to fix the trinity.  Seeing as the most enjoyable classes are DPS.

    7-9 would be a mess IMO. Fewer people there are the more responsibility each party member will have. 

    However FFXIV should have went with 5 instead of 4. 1 tank/healer, 3 DPS would have fixed the queue a bit. Kinda hard changing it now, you have to redesign all the dungeons for that. 

     

    My main game before this was Lord of the Ring Online, and their standard party size is 6 and it works pretty well.  You tend to run with 1 tank, 1 healer, and either 4 dps or 3 dps with 1 cc/support.  While I had gotten burned out on that game, esp with the pay-to-win format and the increasing lack of support by Turbine/WB, I miss the community and the almost total lack of RMT.  LOTRO has a nice class system.  They get around tank/heals shortages in part by having every class having a dps stance in addition to their normal one.  Don't know how it will all change with the next expansion though.  They are doing a full revamp of all the classes and will be bringing in zero new raids or even instances of any kind.  They are developing a new 'big battles' system that I'm pretty dubious about.

  • AoriAori Carbondale, ILPosts: 1,886Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by monochrome19
    Originally posted by Aori
    Originally posted by monochrome19
    You truly do not need a tank until max level. I've heal-tanked just about every dungeon in this game. The dungeons are easy mode.

    I call BS.

    /shrug Call it what you want. Doesn't change the fact that it happened.

    So where was the tank and DPS? Any decent DPS can hold agro over a healer without issue. What was the tank doing?

  • GrailerGrailer HamiltonPosts: 876Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Grailer

    Why does no one play tanks in these types of games ? I've been waiting for over an hour for a group on my dps.

     

    I just don't understand why more people don't play tank class , is it hard or something ?

    Not hard, boring.

    It's a fact of trinity games you're just going to have to get used to. I can only think of one trinity-based MMO in recent years that didn't have a tank shortage, and that was WAR (which had a healer shortage instead). And that was primarily because a lot of people could play tanks like a DPS & look badass.

    The big problem w/ tanks & healers are they are dependent on others to get through content at a fast pace. They take forever to kill things, and for this reason most players find them boring. Unfortunately there's not a whole lot that can be don about that, unless you want a horribly imbalanced game. You can make tanks more interesting / fun (like lotro / rift did) but it doesn't guarantee they'll be popular.

    This problem then gets exaggerated by the fact that tanks tend to have the most pressure in the group. If they are bad, everyone knows it. And indeed most fights cannot be completed with a bad tank. This tends to lead to newer tanks getting yelled out of their role, and the game does a pretty poor job of teaching newer tanks how to play well. They then get to endgame, and either get expected to start doing some advanced tactics flawlessly (stun rotations / defensive rotations), or they find out that their class is pretty much useless atm (warrior).

    It's a problem that exists in all trinity games. While one the one hand, tanks get to group much easier than other archetypes; they are also mostly limited to dungeons / raiding in usefulness.

    I don't find tanking boring at all , they are a pet class after all ,  I mark the target and my pets kill it .   My healer pet keeps me and my other pets alive . 

    Some pets are dumber than other pets and don't have the AI to avoid red circles.  Some are bugged and can't attack the right targets . 

    Every dungeon you get different pets, its like Christmas every new dungeon , do I get a good pet or a bad pet this time .

     

    :)

     

     

  • DzoneDzone bowling green, KYPosts: 351Member Uncommon

    I wish guildheast was a requirement to enter dungeons. Some tanks could use a lot more practice.

     

    I've basically played tank class since beta p3 and I've just recently changed to playing conjurer. Now that I get to see other tanks in this game I've run into 2 things.

     

    1. Gladiators that don't have flash yet

    2. Maradur's who think there dd.

     

    Like the other day I had a maradur in group. Those are supposed to beable to handle multiple enimies at once, but all he ever did was kinda hold on to the one he was fighting. He's hp droped like flies, I couldn't heal him fast enough at first. Well he yelled at me to heal like 3 times. I ended up shouting back for him to tank.

     

    Well after the 2 quick wipes at the first mob group, the next mob group I started to heal him quicker, well after 1 or 2 heals I got agro and our black mage was trying hes best to keep me alive, by healing me and sleeping the mob. The 3rd and 4h mob pull I got agro very quickly and just stood there taking damage while that maradur completely ignored it. I literally stood there tanking it for over a minute before I died.

     

    That was the first dungeon I ever rage quited, I told him to do a better job, while he told me to heal more. I heal more and I gain agro and die, no thanks was just to much for me to deal with. Dying 5 times in first 10 minutes of dungeon is just pitiful.

     

    So ye as healer I've had to wait abit to, plus on top of that the tanks we do have, some just plain suck. They need to do more to teach people how to tank in this game. Guildheast would be a good start but they don't force it on you. Same with your class quest's.

     

    Edit: that maradur party I was talking about was in haukke manor, which is a lvl 28 dungeon, they definataly shouldknow there job by then.

  • renegademanirenegademani NewquayPosts: 10Member

    Well i can only go by my own experiences as a PLD tank.

    Levelling wasnt so bad, i had some minor use in fates, and grinded to 50 that way, however in dungeons, it was hit or miss, I had to read up and watch guides before attempting them, like any good tank does, and then expected to teach party members how to fight bosses because they couldnt be bothered to do a little research, then theres the complete lack of courtesy, I actually had 4 people in a CM run bitch and moan at me for asking them to hold off for a moment while i position bosses, they ignored ofc and were promptly cleaved when the boss turned round and slapped them, which also led to name calling etc.

    In Short, its a thankless job, it requires a large amount of concentration to do well, and if im honest it can be quite tiring, especially when im needed 60 odd CM runs for tomes, and after my 5th or 6th of the day, im liable to get a little irritated by idiots, im more than happy to guide, and patient with newbies, i go as far as having boss tactics on macros etc, but given that my PLD threat gen is pretty slow to start, coumpled with discourteous and rude players it makes tanking very unattractive at times.

    It's gotten tot he point where il only pug CM, simply because its hard to mess up the Dungeon, and i flat out refuse to pug anything else, im sick to the back teeth of being abused by impatient dps, and the dps who moan i dont stun every AOE (yes i have a stun, but its on the global cooldown and costs a crap ton of TP to use, so i only use it if the healers are in danger etc)

     

    Can you see where im going with this,

  • TheRealDarkeusTheRealDarkeus Harrisonburg, VAPosts: 305Member Uncommon
         You know, for as inexperienced as I am as a Tank (I usually love to DPS) I must say I have not had the misfortune of having people scream at me when I screw up.  I find the DPS screws up more than me.  Always drawing aggro to damn early!!
  • AoriAori Carbondale, ILPosts: 1,886Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TheRealDarkeus
         You know, for as inexperienced as I am as a Tank (I usually love to DPS) I must say I have not had the misfortune of having people scream at me when I screw up.  I find the DPS screws up more than me.  Always drawing aggro to damn early!!

    Well a lot of those same DPS yell at the tanks because they don't understand agro actually has to be managed.

  • AlamarethAlamareth Cincinnati, OHPosts: 570Member
    Originally posted by Aori
    Originally posted by TheRealDarkeus
         You know, for as inexperienced as I am as a Tank (I usually love to DPS) I must say I have not had the misfortune of having people scream at me when I screw up.  I find the DPS screws up more than me.  Always drawing aggro to damn early!!

    Well a lot of those same DPS yell at the tanks because they don't understand agro actually has to be managed.

    Normally, the DPS would be correct - by end game.  There's enough AoE aggro generation in either tank toolkits that AoE DPS shouldn't be pulling if the tanks are given a couple of GCD cushion.

  • teknotazteknotaz san antonio, TXPosts: 112Member

    i have played tanks in several MMO including WOW BC and on with pally, rift, warhammer, and several others and i have always enjoyed them. I leveled up bard first cause i wanted a change for a bit and wanted to see the other side. i have seen a lot of stupid tanks and healers and it wants to make me cry. i can not even finish an AK run because of these people that give tanks and healers a bad name.

     

    i am leveling a pally now slowing and in no rush to max level cause i do not want to die all the time and spend all my gil in repairs.

    image

  • DfixDfix Clark MIlls, NYPosts: 242Member
    I leveled both my tank jobs solely doing fate grinds. Much better than having to go through the DF and getting stuck with a bunch of derpy bitches. A lot of tanks do the same thing on my server because the people in DF are either pricks or too stupid to understand simple game mechanics.

    Vivik-Cerberus
    image
  • renegademanirenegademani NewquayPosts: 10Member
    Originally posted by Alamareth
    Originally posted by Aori
    Originally posted by TheRealDarkeus
         You know, for as inexperienced as I am as a Tank (I usually love to DPS) I must say I have not had the misfortune of having people scream at me when I screw up.  I find the DPS screws up more than me.  Always drawing aggro to damn early!!

    Well a lot of those same DPS yell at the tanks because they don't understand agro actually has to be managed.

    Normally, the DPS would be correct - by end game.  There's enough AoE aggro generation in either tank toolkits that AoE DPS shouldn't be pulling if the tanks are given a couple of GCD cushion.

    Youve obviously never played a paladin at endgame, and no flash isnt an end all win button, tis actually pretty crappy, high MP cost low threat gen as it doesnt scale with gear.

    Paladins and aoe Threat are largely a joke, thats why in 8 mans i like having a Warrior in the goup for add duty.

    End of the day it goes like this, If the Tank Dies, its healers fault, if healers die, its tanks fault, if DPS die, its their own damned faultm the game provides an Aggro metre (little bars under your class icon in party list) theres more to dps that spam buttons, if you cant manage your own aggro then you deserve to die. This isnt Wow, Threat Gen isnt easy on a paladin, its very gear and Rotation dependant.

  • AlamarethAlamareth Cincinnati, OHPosts: 570Member
    Originally posted by renegademani
    Originally posted by Alamareth
    Originally posted by Aori
    Originally posted by TheRealDarkeus
         You know, for as inexperienced as I am as a Tank (I usually love to DPS) I must say I have not had the misfortune of having people scream at me when I screw up.  I find the DPS screws up more than me.  Always drawing aggro to damn early!!

    Well a lot of those same DPS yell at the tanks because they don't understand agro actually has to be managed.

    Normally, the DPS would be correct - by end game.  There's enough AoE aggro generation in either tank toolkits that AoE DPS shouldn't be pulling if the tanks are given a couple of GCD cushion.

    Youve obviously never played a paladin at endgame, and no flash isnt an end all win button, tis actually pretty crappy, high MP cost low threat gen as it doesnt scale with gear.

    Paladins and aoe Threat are largely a joke, thats why in 8 mans i like having a Warrior in the goup for add duty.

    End of the day it goes like this, If the Tank Dies, its healers fault, if healers die, its tanks fault, if DPS die, its their own damned faultm the game provides an Aggro metre (little bars under your class icon in party list) theres more to dps that spam buttons, if you cant manage your own aggro then you deserve to die. This isnt Wow, Threat Gen isnt easy on a paladin, its very gear and Rotation dependant.

    Yeah, no duh.  I'm a scholar.  Also, did I say Flash was the end all?  No...I said they need a couple of GCD cooldowns to hold it permanently vs. Relic+1 AoE.

    I'm telling you what my (very good) tanks are able to do on a regular basis.  AoE damage hasn't been an issue for weeks, even on a paladin.

    I'm sorry that your parties can't seem to match mine in clear speed.  That doesn't make you correct.

  • renegademanirenegademani NewquayPosts: 10Member
    Originally posted by Alamareth
    Originally posted by renegademani
    Originally posted by Alamareth
    Originally posted by Aori
    Originally posted by TheRealDarkeus
         You know, for as inexperienced as I am as a Tank (I usually love to DPS) I must say I have not had the misfortune of having people scream at me when I screw up.  I find the DPS screws up more than me.  Always drawing aggro to damn early!!

    Well a lot of those same DPS yell at the tanks because they don't understand agro actually has to be managed.

    Normally, the DPS would be correct - by end game.  There's enough AoE aggro generation in either tank toolkits that AoE DPS shouldn't be pulling if the tanks are given a couple of GCD cushion.

    Youve obviously never played a paladin at endgame, and no flash isnt an end all win button, tis actually pretty crappy, high MP cost low threat gen as it doesnt scale with gear.

    Paladins and aoe Threat are largely a joke, thats why in 8 mans i like having a Warrior in the goup for add duty.

    End of the day it goes like this, If the Tank Dies, its healers fault, if healers die, its tanks fault, if DPS die, its their own damned faultm the game provides an Aggro metre (little bars under your class icon in party list) theres more to dps that spam buttons, if you cant manage your own aggro then you deserve to die. This isnt Wow, Threat Gen isnt easy on a paladin, its very gear and Rotation dependant.

    Yeah, no duh.  I'm a scholar.  Also, did I say Flash was the end all?  No...I said they need a couple of GCD cooldowns to hold it permanently vs. Relic+1 AoE.

    I'm telling you what my (very good) tanks are able to do on a regular basis.  AoE damage hasn't been an issue for weeks, even on a paladin.

    I'm sorry that your parties can't seem to match mine in clear speed.  That doesn't make you correct.

    I never said it was impossible, i implied its very hard, which it is, I do it on a regular basis aswel against relic AOE. Its just very hard to do and i resent people claiming its easy when they dont play a paladin themselves. Requires Concentration and quick fingers to Keyboard Tango. As for flash i was half expecting "youve got flash blah blah blah"

    And alot of this thread is based on Duty Finder groups, not premades who generally know what their doing.

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