Hefty personal penalty. Its silly how trivial dieing is. Having more penalty makes the act of dieing that less liked and as such, makes stupid behavior less 'desired', helping people to actually improve.
Permadeath is fun, but honestly I would see it maybe on a specialized server for it.
Harsh penalties don't make people play better or act less stupid. It makes them risk averse and only play safe. When you die and lose 5 weeks of xp leveling and rare gear that took months and months to farm, do you play better or do you just play safe? Does any mmo player go out and try to play like crap on purpose?
How does punishing a player actually make them improve? It seems like not succeeding and not being rewarded is motivation for improvement. Say you want an Ancient Robe for your mage. You need to farm a semi-common base component, a very rare component, and then pay tens of millions of gold to transform it into the high powered magic item. This takes a couple months and some luck. How does dying, for any reason, and having all that gone plus some other gear make you better at being a mage? I would think practicing and farming and finally figuring out how to get the item would make you better.
You can either have the next expansion make your gear worthless or have the game incorporate a gear degredation/decay/break/destroy method.
The former is the recipe for WoW and the gear treadmill, gear decay is the recipe for a fully functioning in game economy
every single game with a player driven vs resource driven economy from uo to swg to eve to those niche titles like salem have decay...every single game that has tried to get around it has ended up with the odd ball world where copper is worth more than a piece of armor made from copper.
Xp-loss and debt would be fine with me (or a corpserun wich u would need a group for depending on where u died ofc should be able to bypass mobs to some extend.
Originally posted by Mardy This poll is pointless, as SOE isn't going with harsh penalties with EQN. Yet another pointless poll where developers already knew how they are going to handle death. Expect very mild death sting, to a point that you won't even be able to call it a "death penalty".
SOE: "Heey! What do you guys think of THIS? Cuz guess what, we don't care!"
Hah. I was just thinking the same thing while realising the current shape of the poll resembles it giving us all the middle finger.
Originally posted by nethaniah
Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.
Originally posted by Mardy This poll is pointless, as SOE isn't going with harsh penalties with EQN. Yet another pointless poll where developers already knew how they are going to handle death. Expect very mild death sting, to a point that you won't even be able to call it a "death penalty".
SOE: "Heey! What do you guys think of THIS? Cuz guess what, we don't care!"
Hah. I was just thinking the same thing while realising the current shape of the poll resembles it giving us all the middle finger.
Wish we had a like button for posts, made me laugh pretty hard.
Hefty personal penalty. Its silly how trivial dieing is. Having more penalty makes the act of dieing that less liked and as such, makes stupid behavior less 'desired', helping people to actually improve.
Permadeath is fun, but honestly I would see it maybe on a specialized server for it.
I agree, death should have meaning. Perma death and casual death could have their own servers, but I have barked about server owned mechanics before in the pub; so I won't go into detail.
Originally posted by Mardy This poll is pointless, as SOE isn't going with harsh penalties with EQN. Yet another pointless poll where developers already knew how they are going to handle death. Expect very mild death sting, to a point that you won't even be able to call it a "death penalty".
SOE: "Heey! What do you guys think of THIS? Cuz guess what, we don't care!"
Hah. I was just thinking the same thing while realising the current shape of the poll resembles it giving us all the middle finger.
Wish we had a like button for posts, made me laugh pretty hard.
So have you looked at the numbers? That big finger is pointing right at the hardcores! 75% want fairly high or less. Only 25% want significant or permadeath. And since we know permadeath players are are certifiably insane that leaves only 20% that want a significantly harsh death penalty. And it is 43 % for mod. harsh death and 30% for the mild version.
I think this is a pretty relevant poll. I would expect about 25% of players wishing for severe death penalties and good for them. Permadeath is a joke and anyone that votes for it...well you know.
But i think it shows that the rest of want something maybe just a little more punishing but not something that will radically affect enjoyment of the game. A death penalty has to be done right. And it goes along with how difficult the game is. If the game itself is difficult, and you are dying often, then a harsh penalty will likely frustrate you more. And if the game is easy then a harder death penalty might make some sense. Personally I would prefer a more difficult game, rather than just increasing the penalty for death. I mean I am always trying to avoid death. Having a harsh death penalty is probably just going to cause me to back off difficult encounters and stick to easier ones.
Like I said its not as easy as just making death a penalizing experience. With that in mind, plus the poll numbers here I think we can guess what to expect from EQN as far as penalties for death go.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Originally posted by Mardy This poll is pointless, as SOE isn't going with harsh penalties with EQN. Yet another pointless poll where developers already knew how they are going to handle death. Expect very mild death sting, to a point that you won't even be able to call it a "death penalty".
This.
SOE yet again pretending to care what players think.
Think they would really implement PermaDeath if the overwhelming majority wanted it?
Permadeath is a subject that doesn't really belong in a discussion about any AAA mmorpg. If it were to be implemented in any realistic manner in a modern MMO, then it would also mean that actual character death would have to be a reasonably rare occurrence. Easy to kill and permadeath equal instant failure of your expensive game.
If it wasn't a rare occurence, then what is happening besides restarting a new toon quite frequently? Which again, just becomes another overly harsh death penalty. Same thing, just a stupidly different way of doing it.
No, actual permadeath has to be what people say it is. You die, you are done. Thats it game over. No new character to spring back to life again just so you can go kill the guy that killed you and start the cycle over.
Permadeath is a joke any way you look at it, and no AAA MMO is even going to consider the idea, not even on a separate server.
If it happens, come back and say " I told you so". I will be waiting.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Permadeath is a subject that doesn't really belong in a discussion about any AAA mmorpg. If it were to be implemented in any realistic manner in a modern MMO, then it would also mean that actual character death would have to be a reasonably rare occurrence. Easy to kill and permadeath equal instant failure of your expensive game.
If it wasn't a rare occurence, then what is happening besides restarting a new toon quite frequently? Which again, just becomes another overly harsh death penalty. Same thing, just a stupidly different way of doing it.
No, actual permadeath has to be what people say it is. You die, you are done. Thats it game over. No new character to spring back to life again just so you can go kill the guy that killed you and start the cycle over.
Permadeath is a joke any way you look at it, and no AAA MMO is even going to consider the idea, not even on a separate server.
If it happens, come back and say " I told you so". I will be waiting.
eq had a server, if you died you got knocked down to level 5. that was 14? years ago. i honestly have no clue if the concept had much of a following or not.
edit: I just remembered and had to add it was an open world pvp server, too.
Originally posted by Mardy This poll is pointless, as SOE isn't going with harsh penalties with EQN. Yet another pointless poll where developers already knew how they are going to handle death. Expect very mild death sting, to a point that you won't even be able to call it a "death penalty".
SOE: "Heey! What do you guys think of THIS? Cuz guess what, we don't care!"
Hah. I was just thinking the same thing while realising the current shape of the poll resembles it giving us all the middle finger.
Wish we had a like button for posts, made me laugh pretty hard.
So have you looked at the numbers? That big finger is pointing right at the hardcores! 75% want fairly high or less. Only 25% want significant or permadeath. And since we know permadeath players are are certifiably insane that leaves only 20% that want a significantly harsh death penalty. And it is 43 % for mod. harsh death and 30% for the mild version.
I think this is a pretty relevant poll. I would expect about 25% of players wishing for severe death penalties and good for them. Permadeath is a joke and anyone that votes for it...well you know.
But i think it shows that the rest of want something maybe just a little more punishing but not something that will radically affect enjoyment of the game. A death penalty has to be done right. And it goes along with how difficult the game is. If the game itself is difficult, and you are dying often, then a harsh penalty will likely frustrate you more. And if the game is easy then a harder death penalty might make some sense. Personally I would prefer a more difficult game, rather than just increasing the penalty for death. I mean I am always trying to avoid death. Having a harsh death penalty is probably just going to cause me to back off difficult encounters and stick to easier ones.
Like I said its not as easy as just making death a penalizing experience. With that in mind, plus the poll numbers here I think we can guess what to expect from EQN as far as penalties for death go.
Well since you asked :-). We may not have specific numbers of people voting from the EQN round table poll, but I am going to assume more people have voted there then our own poll; and that is what I am going to use for my foundation. (As of this time of posting).
Severe or Moderate Penalty (depending on what they implement) - 32%
Minor Penalty - 24%
No Penalty - 14%
I don't agree that the "middle" finger is directed at the hard core players. There is a pretty big split among the player base on how they want to play their game. Its like most single player games where you have a difficulty setting.
I will admit that perma-death players and no-penalty players are the minorities and I think we can agree that they would make exceptions for the next best thing; assuming that: Hefty/Perma- 30%; Minor/No- 38%. Looking at the scores, its obvious that more people want convenience over realism, but really by how much? Because we still have the "middle" finger to look at. Which creates an even more grey area. This poll should have been split up more for better accuracy; especially after re-reading it.
The middle of the line penalty (posted here for convenience): "I want a fairly high personal-only penalty such as lost XP, de-leveling, or equipment damage." The big "OR" in the sentence can make this a severe or moderate death penalty; depending on what they do in fact implement and combine. Loss of XP or de-leveling I would consider a severe penalty; while equipment damage I would consider to be a minor penalty since you just pay a fee (of course depending on how much that fee would make it more severe). They should have further delved into the poll to define it as such. I would have added a moderate and severe penalty question to replace the combined because now there is undefined division within the poll: players who want de-leveling; players who want exp loss; and players who want equipment damage. I believe adding questions like : severe- I want a fairly high personal-only penalty such as loss of exp, de-leveling and equipment damage; moderate- I want a fairly moderate personal-only penalty such as loss of exp, equipment damage and ghost run back.
My answer, create different servers that implement various difficulties or mechanics. Would forgo complaints and create the environment and community players want. Which would in turn create more revenue for the company. I made a post about the very topic if you care to read more:
Last but not at the very least; I agree that having severe or a hefty difficulty would make players decide to just fight easier mobs if they are afraid of the risk vs reward, but this could lead to groups forming to fight the more challenging mobs to ensure survival. Said groups could become daily groups and buddies which would lead to a more bonded guild. (My vision at least.)
My first MMO was EQ 1. Being an EQ 1 veteran (playing from the Kunark expansion) I can say without a doubt that I have never seen a more bonded or friendlier community. Having that risk of dying in the game (losing your corpse, along with your items; losing experience, with the possibility of de-leveling: and the overall challenge of just getting back to your corpse) introduced me to wonderful people and a great community because everyone felt and knew the same pain. Death mattered in the game. It in fact mattered so much players made a business out of it selling their services for platinum (EQ currency). It was always great to see people go out of their way to just help you and it happened often. And because those people helped me I enjoyed helping others. There is no feeling like it, and I want to feel and care for my character again and care for those around me.
I am playing FFXIV ARR and I am enjoying my time, but even with my fun its missing something. I have rarely died in the game and because of that I rarely decide to group. I have not raided yet or have not done as many dungeons, but just out in the open world I am only threatened to die by exploration into a higher level zone. Levequests with increased +4 levels of difficult are not even that threatening. Maybe at the higher levels this changes, but for now I don't see death haunting me.
In EQ 1 death was there at level 1 and no other game has done that since. Its a shame that such a immersive, community building tool has become trivial. I understand that players just don't have the time though, so its easy to see why, but I hope that MMOs do create different servers within their games for different experiences in the future.
Originally posted by Mardy This poll is pointless, as SOE isn't going with harsh penalties with EQN. Yet another pointless poll where developers already knew how they are going to handle death. Expect very mild death sting, to a point that you won't even be able to call it a "death penalty".
SOE: "Heey! What do you guys think of THIS? Cuz guess what, we don't care!"
Hah. I was just thinking the same thing while realising the current shape of the poll resembles it giving us all the middle finger.
Wish we had a like button for posts, made me laugh pretty hard.
So have you looked at the numbers? That big finger is pointing right at the hardcores! 75% want fairly high or less. Only 25% want significant or permadeath. And since we know permadeath players are are certifiably insane that leaves only 20% that want a significantly harsh death penalty. And it is 43 % for mod. harsh death and 30% for the mild version.
I think this is a pretty relevant poll. I would expect about 25% of players wishing for severe death penalties and good for them. Permadeath is a joke and anyone that votes for it...well you know.
But i think it shows that the rest of want something maybe just a little more punishing but not something that will radically affect enjoyment of the game. A death penalty has to be done right. And it goes along with how difficult the game is. If the game itself is difficult, and you are dying often, then a harsh penalty will likely frustrate you more. And if the game is easy then a harder death penalty might make some sense. Personally I would prefer a more difficult game, rather than just increasing the penalty for death. I mean I am always trying to avoid death. Having a harsh death penalty is probably just going to cause me to back off difficult encounters and stick to easier ones.
Like I said its not as easy as just making death a penalizing experience. With that in mind, plus the poll numbers here I think we can guess what to expect from EQN as far as penalties for death go.
I see it the exact opposite. Over 60% want a fairly high or hefty penalty while less than 40% want little or no penalty. I left out permadeath because it just isn't something viable for anything other than a small time MMO or a single server on a larger MMO while no penalty is a possibility.
But I do agree with the poster that points out the 'fairly high' option is rather broad with the 'or' in there and could be picking up votes for equipment damage only which most would agree isn't fairly high at all which means the split could be much closer than 60/40. Anyway, I just don't see how you can lump the center option, which is labeled 'fairly high', into the low penalty camp. Especially when most people will look at those options and only see four realistic choices.
I would consider the fairly high option to mean a 'standard' death penalty. Going into a game I know nothing about my assumption would be the options given in fairly high. The low death penalty trumps the high death penalty in that poll but the standard is the majority.
I don't care what they do. Just make a game that holds my interest for more than a couple weeks. Please. So so so tired of the current state the MMORPG genre is in.
Originally posted by Mardy This poll is pointless, as SOE isn't going with harsh penalties with EQN. Yet another pointless poll where developers already knew how they are going to handle death. Expect very mild death sting, to a point that you won't even be able to call it a "death penalty".
SOE: "Heey! What do you guys think of THIS? Cuz guess what, we don't care!"
Hah. I was just thinking the same thing while realising the current shape of the poll resembles it giving us all the middle finger.
Wish we had a like button for posts, made me laugh pretty hard.
So have you looked at the numbers? That big finger is pointing right at the hardcores! 75% want fairly high or less. Only 25% want significant or permadeath. And since we know permadeath players are are certifiably insane that leaves only 20% that want a significantly harsh death penalty. And it is 43 % for mod. harsh death and 30% for the mild version.
I think this is a pretty relevant poll. I would expect about 25% of players wishing for severe death penalties and good for them. Permadeath is a joke and anyone that votes for it...well you know.
But i think it shows that the rest of want something maybe just a little more punishing but not something that will radically affect enjoyment of the game. A death penalty has to be done right. And it goes along with how difficult the game is. If the game itself is difficult, and you are dying often, then a harsh penalty will likely frustrate you more. And if the game is easy then a harder death penalty might make some sense. Personally I would prefer a more difficult game, rather than just increasing the penalty for death. I mean I am always trying to avoid death. Having a harsh death penalty is probably just going to cause me to back off difficult encounters and stick to easier ones.
Like I said its not as easy as just making death a penalizing experience. With that in mind, plus the poll numbers here I think we can guess what to expect from EQN as far as penalties for death go.
I see it the exact opposite. Over 60% want a fairly high or hefty penalty while less than 40% want little or no penalty. I left out permadeath because it just isn't something viable for anything other than a small time MMO or a single server on a larger MMO while no penalty is a possibility.
But I do agree with the poster that points out the 'fairly high' option is rather broad with the 'or' in there and could be picking up votes for equipment damage only which most would agree isn't fairly high at all which means the split could be much closer than 60/40. Anyway, I just don't see how you can lump the center option, which is labeled 'fairly high', into the low penalty camp. Especially when most people will look at those options and only see four realistic choices.
True enough, I agree. I think the middle, "fairly" could best be described as the "undecided" group. Some of them feel they may want fairly hard to mean much harder all the way down harder than now but not punishing. Or whatever. At least we can agree that the extreme death penalty group seems to be the minority here.
And absolutely, permadeath should not even be discussed here. Maybe refine the middle part of the poll a little bit and see what you come up with OP. But take permadeath out of the discussion because that just skews things and is not a viable option in a large AAA MMO.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I see it the exact opposite. Over 60% want a fairly high or hefty penalty while less than 40% want little or no penalty. I left out permadeath because it just isn't something viable for anything other than a small time MMO or a single server on a larger MMO while no penalty is a possibility.
But I do agree with the poster that points out the 'fairly high' option is rather broad with the 'or' in there and could be picking up votes for equipment damage only which most would agree isn't fairly high at all which means the split could be much closer than 60/40. Anyway, I just don't see how you can lump the center option, which is labeled 'fairly high', into the low penalty camp. Especially when most people will look at those options and only see four realistic choices.
True enough, I agree. I think the middle, "fairly" could best be described as the "undecided" group. Some of them feel they may want fairly hard to mean much harder all the way down harder than now but not punishing. Or whatever. At least we can agree that the extreme death penalty group seems to be the minority here.
And absolutely, permadeath should not even be discussed here. Maybe refine the middle part of the poll a little bit and see what you come up with OP. But take permadeath out of the discussion because that just skews things and is not a viable option in a large AAA MMO.
I think we could also agree no penalty is along the lines of perma death as a minority among the more dominate polls.
Permadeath is a viable, but over-looked form for MMOs and should not be counted out though. I know I would dabble with a perma death character, it would have its own atmosphere of a community, taking the game and actions much more seriously. I could see how timid and how frustrating a wipe could be, but that is the risk the people chose going into it. Newbie zones would still be used, starting cities would not be ghost towns and there would always be fresh faces throughout the game. People will care about their characters leading to a great immersion factor, at least in my opinion.
I would like to re-define the poll again, but I rather do it in another thread since I am using the round table poll for discussion here.
I think a combination of a corpse run and something else would be good. I feel that corpse runs from EQ were perfect, except for the item loss. I would say a combination of both, so leave tombstones where you died and have a cleric rez your tombstone to restore something back to your character etc.
I could even see skill penalties, if you die too many times your skills start to lock up for a certain period of time... or you would have a debuff that stacks, starts at 25% damage/healing reduction and it stacks to 4 for 100% useless for a small period of time.
Looking at the poll on the round table, I voted for the fairly high personal penalty.
I am really excited about EQ Next, but I admit that I never played any games by SOE before; the only MMO I've played extensively is World of Warcraft.
That being said, the kind of penalty I'm used to is a ghost run and some armor damage. However, I think it would be fun in EQ Next if there was armor damage and a stat penalty that lasts for just a minute or so.
Try to picture this: a warrior finds a group of varying mobs, such as an elite and 2 or 3 minions, and decides to charge in and whale on the elite. The elite is pretty hearty and takes a log time time to kill, too long in fact that the minions kill you.
The warrior returns with 5% of his/her power reduced with a timer on it for 1 minute. The warrior tries the same tactic again and dies and comes back with minus 10% power and 2 minutes on the timer.
Now, I'm not implying that the debuff stacks forever; I think that a maximum penalty of minus 25% power for 5 minutes is good enough.
In my opinion, the player would be compelled to stop and think about the battle, such as a new strategy to go at it at a different angle, attack the minions first or roll them over with a boulder or something.
The only drawback I can perceive is the player rage quitting and cursing the game for days, but if the game is all around good I bet the player would at least pick up different strategies and do good without putting much thought into it.
Now, I'm not implying that the debuff stacks forever; I think that a maximum penalty of minus 25% power for 5 minutes is good enough.
In my opinion, the player would be compelled to stop and think about the battle, such as a new strategy to go at it at a different angle, attack the minions first or roll them over with a boulder or something.
The only drawback I can perceive is the player rage quitting and cursing the game for days, but if the game is all around good I bet the player would at least pick up different strategies and do good without putting much thought into it.
It feels strange reading this coming from good ole EQ 1 from way back where you died: lost all your gear, sometimes de-leveled and repeatedly died trying to recover said corpse. I was a child playing the game, and I had a blast even with penalty, but I never rage quit because of it. The game was fair and death should have a price; and it should be not taken lightly.
It feels strange reading this coming from good ole EQ 1 from way back where you died: lost all your gear, sometimes de-leveled and repeatedly died trying to recover said corpse. I was a child playing the game, and I had a blast even with penalty, but I never rage quit because of it. The game was fair and death should have a price; and it should be not taken lightly.
I agree completely with your statement, that death should have a price and not be taken lightly.
When death has a heavy price and everyone knows about it we prioritize growth of ourselfs and our community, such as having a good relationship with your guild and friends so you could go in groups all the time. Even if you're a solo player you still try to weigh all the risks.
I guess what I'm saying is that I would prefer a death penalty that makes me aware of my own mortality, and when you're aware of that the whole time you're in a boss battle it makes it so much more special and epic after you and your friends get out of it alive.
I played original EQ and loved the corpse run days but due to the current playerbase I think they should go the xp debt route, that'll at least make for better grouping and better group experiences. Noone wants to lose XP or de-level. At the same time, not many people would want permadeath or hardcore corpse runs. So it's gonna have to pan out evenly In my opinion.
PS: Higher death penalties will make for more quality grouping and communities. As for the solo player...well...if you play an mmo with thousands to millions of other players, why play solo? Obviously there should be some solo content as well but you see what i'm saying?
I would like to have the old EQ1 death rules back. Xp loss, delevelling possibilities, corpse runs that may require you to get help from friends if you stupidly went to explore where there is a high risk of dying and not possible to get your corpse back if you did.
But then again, this is like their roundtable on the main EQN site, whatever is voted on and being said, they will still choose what they have already decided on. Doesn't matter if the highest votes is something completely different than what they want. They will go with what they want.
I'm really trying to understand the mentality behind people voting for Permadeath; how on earth could you have that in a game? In single player games you may have permadeath but you also have save slots so you never really have to roll a new character.
In a MMO, where the anonymity of the internet is bound to bring to the surface -usually- the worst self in many people, how could anyone vote for permadeath and not consider the potential ramifications?
I'm really trying to understand the mentality behind people voting for Permadeath; how on earth could you have that in a game? In single player games you may have permadeath but you also have save slots so you never really have to roll a new character.
In a MMO, where the anonymity of the internet is bound to bring to the surface -usually- the worst self in many people, how could anyone vote for permadeath and not consider the potential ramifications?
I think of games like minecraft and diablo, for reference, where they do have perma-death modes, but no save point that you can go back to. Once your dead, your character file is deleted.
As to why people want to play perma-death; I believe its the matter of the challenge that comes with it and pride (ego) for it. Sure there are ramifications towards playing a perma-death game, but you know what your getting into before hand.
Maybe one solution to few problems that come with perma death, such as communities or guilds breaking apart because of it, is allowing players to choose to be apart of the same guild account wide. So if leader "X" dies he could create a new character and be the leader still; or in my opinion let "Y", who is next in line, be in charge and let "X" new character work up the ranks again.
A perma-death game would allow the constant ebb and flow of "new" people in city hubs and starting zones. "Fresh" faces at early level and only the "best" at higher levels. It would really filter out people and create a different standard of community.
Then imagine open-world pvp and prospect of the communities creating bounties for certain characters within the game and guild battles or sieges having actual consequences and only the tactically superior guild wins and then becomes a major power house. You could fix this power house by infiltrating the guild with saboteurs.
Perma-death is an under-used tool at the developers disposal and should not be tossed aside. I may have voted for hefty penalty, but I would play the crap out of a perma-death server if they had that as a choice.
Comments
You can either have the next expansion make your gear worthless or have the game incorporate a gear degredation/decay/break/destroy method.
The former is the recipe for WoW and the gear treadmill, gear decay is the recipe for a fully functioning in game economy
every single game with a player driven vs resource driven economy from uo to swg to eve to those niche titles like salem have decay...every single game that has tried to get around it has ended up with the odd ball world where copper is worth more than a piece of armor made from copper.
voted fairly high but im an inbetween guy.
Xp-loss and debt would be fine with me (or a corpserun wich u would need a group for depending on where u died ofc should be able to bypass mobs to some extend.
Hah. I was just thinking the same thing while realising the current shape of the poll resembles it giving us all the middle finger.
Wish we had a like button for posts, made me laugh pretty hard.
I agree, death should have meaning. Perma death and casual death could have their own servers, but I have barked about server owned mechanics before in the pub; so I won't go into detail.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/397101/Server-Mechanisms-for-the-Player-and-Community.html
So have you looked at the numbers? That big finger is pointing right at the hardcores! 75% want fairly high or less. Only 25% want significant or permadeath. And since we know permadeath players are are certifiably insane that leaves only 20% that want a significantly harsh death penalty. And it is 43 % for mod. harsh death and 30% for the mild version.
I think this is a pretty relevant poll. I would expect about 25% of players wishing for severe death penalties and good for them. Permadeath is a joke and anyone that votes for it...well you know.
But i think it shows that the rest of want something maybe just a little more punishing but not something that will radically affect enjoyment of the game. A death penalty has to be done right. And it goes along with how difficult the game is. If the game itself is difficult, and you are dying often, then a harsh penalty will likely frustrate you more. And if the game is easy then a harder death penalty might make some sense. Personally I would prefer a more difficult game, rather than just increasing the penalty for death. I mean I am always trying to avoid death. Having a harsh death penalty is probably just going to cause me to back off difficult encounters and stick to easier ones.
Like I said its not as easy as just making death a penalizing experience. With that in mind, plus the poll numbers here I think we can guess what to expect from EQN as far as penalties for death go.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
This.
SOE yet again pretending to care what players think.
Think they would really implement PermaDeath if the overwhelming majority wanted it?Permadeath is a subject that doesn't really belong in a discussion about any AAA mmorpg. If it were to be implemented in any realistic manner in a modern MMO, then it would also mean that actual character death would have to be a reasonably rare occurrence. Easy to kill and permadeath equal instant failure of your expensive game.
If it wasn't a rare occurence, then what is happening besides restarting a new toon quite frequently? Which again, just becomes another overly harsh death penalty. Same thing, just a stupidly different way of doing it.
No, actual permadeath has to be what people say it is. You die, you are done. Thats it game over. No new character to spring back to life again just so you can go kill the guy that killed you and start the cycle over.
Permadeath is a joke any way you look at it, and no AAA MMO is even going to consider the idea, not even on a separate server.
If it happens, come back and say " I told you so". I will be waiting.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
eq had a server, if you died you got knocked down to level 5. that was 14? years ago. i honestly have no clue if the concept had much of a following or not.
edit: I just remembered and had to add it was an open world pvp server, too.
Well since you asked :-). We may not have specific numbers of people voting from the EQN round table poll, but I am going to assume more people have voted there then our own poll; and that is what I am going to use for my foundation. (As of this time of posting).
https://www.everquestnext.com/round-table?poll=death-penalty-eqn
Perma Death - 8%
Hefty Penalty= 22%
Severe or Moderate Penalty (depending on what they implement) - 32%
Minor Penalty - 24%
No Penalty - 14%
I don't agree that the "middle" finger is directed at the hard core players. There is a pretty big split among the player base on how they want to play their game. Its like most single player games where you have a difficulty setting.
I will admit that perma-death players and no-penalty players are the minorities and I think we can agree that they would make exceptions for the next best thing; assuming that: Hefty/Perma- 30%; Minor/No- 38%. Looking at the scores, its obvious that more people want convenience over realism, but really by how much? Because we still have the "middle" finger to look at. Which creates an even more grey area. This poll should have been split up more for better accuracy; especially after re-reading it.
The middle of the line penalty (posted here for convenience): "I want a fairly high personal-only penalty such as lost XP, de-leveling, or equipment damage." The big "OR" in the sentence can make this a severe or moderate death penalty; depending on what they do in fact implement and combine. Loss of XP or de-leveling I would consider a severe penalty; while equipment damage I would consider to be a minor penalty since you just pay a fee (of course depending on how much that fee would make it more severe). They should have further delved into the poll to define it as such. I would have added a moderate and severe penalty question to replace the combined because now there is undefined division within the poll: players who want de-leveling; players who want exp loss; and players who want equipment damage. I believe adding questions like : severe- I want a fairly high personal-only penalty such as loss of exp, de-leveling and equipment damage; moderate- I want a fairly moderate personal-only penalty such as loss of exp, equipment damage and ghost run back.
My answer, create different servers that implement various difficulties or mechanics. Would forgo complaints and create the environment and community players want. Which would in turn create more revenue for the company. I made a post about the very topic if you care to read more:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/397101/Server-Mechanisms-for-the-Player-and-Community.html
Last but not at the very least; I agree that having severe or a hefty difficulty would make players decide to just fight easier mobs if they are afraid of the risk vs reward, but this could lead to groups forming to fight the more challenging mobs to ensure survival. Said groups could become daily groups and buddies which would lead to a more bonded guild. (My vision at least.)
My first MMO was EQ 1. Being an EQ 1 veteran (playing from the Kunark expansion) I can say without a doubt that I have never seen a more bonded or friendlier community. Having that risk of dying in the game (losing your corpse, along with your items; losing experience, with the possibility of de-leveling: and the overall challenge of just getting back to your corpse) introduced me to wonderful people and a great community because everyone felt and knew the same pain. Death mattered in the game. It in fact mattered so much players made a business out of it selling their services for platinum (EQ currency). It was always great to see people go out of their way to just help you and it happened often. And because those people helped me I enjoyed helping others. There is no feeling like it, and I want to feel and care for my character again and care for those around me.
I am playing FFXIV ARR and I am enjoying my time, but even with my fun its missing something. I have rarely died in the game and because of that I rarely decide to group. I have not raided yet or have not done as many dungeons, but just out in the open world I am only threatened to die by exploration into a higher level zone. Levequests with increased +4 levels of difficult are not even that threatening. Maybe at the higher levels this changes, but for now I don't see death haunting me.
In EQ 1 death was there at level 1 and no other game has done that since. Its a shame that such a immersive, community building tool has become trivial. I understand that players just don't have the time though, so its easy to see why, but I hope that MMOs do create different servers within their games for different experiences in the future.
I see it the exact opposite. Over 60% want a fairly high or hefty penalty while less than 40% want little or no penalty. I left out permadeath because it just isn't something viable for anything other than a small time MMO or a single server on a larger MMO while no penalty is a possibility.
But I do agree with the poster that points out the 'fairly high' option is rather broad with the 'or' in there and could be picking up votes for equipment damage only which most would agree isn't fairly high at all which means the split could be much closer than 60/40. Anyway, I just don't see how you can lump the center option, which is labeled 'fairly high', into the low penalty camp. Especially when most people will look at those options and only see four realistic choices.
I would consider the fairly high option to mean a 'standard' death penalty. Going into a game I know nothing about my assumption would be the options given in fairly high. The low death penalty trumps the high death penalty in that poll but the standard is the majority.
True enough, I agree. I think the middle, "fairly" could best be described as the "undecided" group. Some of them feel they may want fairly hard to mean much harder all the way down harder than now but not punishing. Or whatever. At least we can agree that the extreme death penalty group seems to be the minority here.
And absolutely, permadeath should not even be discussed here. Maybe refine the middle part of the poll a little bit and see what you come up with OP. But take permadeath out of the discussion because that just skews things and is not a viable option in a large AAA MMO.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I think we could also agree no penalty is along the lines of perma death as a minority among the more dominate polls.
Permadeath is a viable, but over-looked form for MMOs and should not be counted out though. I know I would dabble with a perma death character, it would have its own atmosphere of a community, taking the game and actions much more seriously. I could see how timid and how frustrating a wipe could be, but that is the risk the people chose going into it. Newbie zones would still be used, starting cities would not be ghost towns and there would always be fresh faces throughout the game. People will care about their characters leading to a great immersion factor, at least in my opinion.
I would like to re-define the poll again, but I rather do it in another thread since I am using the round table poll for discussion here.
I think a combination of a corpse run and something else would be good. I feel that corpse runs from EQ were perfect, except for the item loss. I would say a combination of both, so leave tombstones where you died and have a cleric rez your tombstone to restore something back to your character etc.
I could even see skill penalties, if you die too many times your skills start to lock up for a certain period of time... or you would have a debuff that stacks, starts at 25% damage/healing reduction and it stacks to 4 for 100% useless for a small period of time.
Looking at the poll on the round table, I voted for the fairly high personal penalty.
I am really excited about EQ Next, but I admit that I never played any games by SOE before; the only MMO I've played extensively is World of Warcraft.
That being said, the kind of penalty I'm used to is a ghost run and some armor damage. However, I think it would be fun in EQ Next if there was armor damage and a stat penalty that lasts for just a minute or so.
Try to picture this: a warrior finds a group of varying mobs, such as an elite and 2 or 3 minions, and decides to charge in and whale on the elite. The elite is pretty hearty and takes a log time time to kill, too long in fact that the minions kill you.
The warrior returns with 5% of his/her power reduced with a timer on it for 1 minute. The warrior tries the same tactic again and dies and comes back with minus 10% power and 2 minutes on the timer.
Now, I'm not implying that the debuff stacks forever; I think that a maximum penalty of minus 25% power for 5 minutes is good enough.
In my opinion, the player would be compelled to stop and think about the battle, such as a new strategy to go at it at a different angle, attack the minions first or roll them over with a boulder or something.
The only drawback I can perceive is the player rage quitting and cursing the game for days, but if the game is all around good I bet the player would at least pick up different strategies and do good without putting much thought into it.
It feels strange reading this coming from good ole EQ 1 from way back where you died: lost all your gear, sometimes de-leveled and repeatedly died trying to recover said corpse. I was a child playing the game, and I had a blast even with penalty, but I never rage quit because of it. The game was fair and death should have a price; and it should be not taken lightly.
I agree completely with your statement, that death should have a price and not be taken lightly.
When death has a heavy price and everyone knows about it we prioritize growth of ourselfs and our community, such as having a good relationship with your guild and friends so you could go in groups all the time. Even if you're a solo player you still try to weigh all the risks.
I guess what I'm saying is that I would prefer a death penalty that makes me aware of my own mortality, and when you're aware of that the whole time you're in a boss battle it makes it so much more special and epic after you and your friends get out of it alive.
Seems there is a demand for paying the penalty for bad game design and pay to win type games!
NOT ME!!!
I played original EQ and loved the corpse run days but due to the current playerbase I think they should go the xp debt route, that'll at least make for better grouping and better group experiences. Noone wants to lose XP or de-level. At the same time, not many people would want permadeath or hardcore corpse runs. So it's gonna have to pan out evenly In my opinion.
PS: Higher death penalties will make for more quality grouping and communities. As for the solo player...well...if you play an mmo with thousands to millions of other players, why play solo? Obviously there should be some solo content as well but you see what i'm saying?
I would like to have the old EQ1 death rules back. Xp loss, delevelling possibilities, corpse runs that may require you to get help from friends if you stupidly went to explore where there is a high risk of dying and not possible to get your corpse back if you did.
But then again, this is like their roundtable on the main EQN site, whatever is voted on and being said, they will still choose what they have already decided on. Doesn't matter if the highest votes is something completely different than what they want. They will go with what they want.
I'm really trying to understand the mentality behind people voting for Permadeath; how on earth could you have that in a game? In single player games you may have permadeath but you also have save slots so you never really have to roll a new character.
In a MMO, where the anonymity of the internet is bound to bring to the surface -usually- the worst self in many people, how could anyone vote for permadeath and not consider the potential ramifications?
I think of games like minecraft and diablo, for reference, where they do have perma-death modes, but no save point that you can go back to. Once your dead, your character file is deleted.
As to why people want to play perma-death; I believe its the matter of the challenge that comes with it and pride (ego) for it. Sure there are ramifications towards playing a perma-death game, but you know what your getting into before hand.
Maybe one solution to few problems that come with perma death, such as communities or guilds breaking apart because of it, is allowing players to choose to be apart of the same guild account wide. So if leader "X" dies he could create a new character and be the leader still; or in my opinion let "Y", who is next in line, be in charge and let "X" new character work up the ranks again.
A perma-death game would allow the constant ebb and flow of "new" people in city hubs and starting zones. "Fresh" faces at early level and only the "best" at higher levels. It would really filter out people and create a different standard of community.
Then imagine open-world pvp and prospect of the communities creating bounties for certain characters within the game and guild battles or sieges having actual consequences and only the tactically superior guild wins and then becomes a major power house. You could fix this power house by infiltrating the guild with saboteurs.
Perma-death is an under-used tool at the developers disposal and should not be tossed aside. I may have voted for hefty penalty, but I would play the crap out of a perma-death server if they had that as a choice.