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Why is WvWvW and SPVP such a fail?

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  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,923Member Uncommon

    I feel the reason its weak is just since the combat system in GW2 is frankly quiet weak. If the combat system was stronger, I feel pvp would be a better experience, even if its not completely 'there' with how the modes are set up. It just isn't a very competative system, its pretty much a "if you know how to use dodge, your gold" system. Sure, WvWvW isn't very well executed, leaving a lacking of that 'grand epic battle' scale which relies a lot on zerging being king (further diminishing the real aspect of 'skill') but its still not that horrible, just not fully realized with its set up.

     

    Again, I feel its issues come that its combat system is just lack luster that kind of harms the PvP from feeling really great. Other games just did a far better job on that end.

  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Vorch

    GW2's sPvP isn't bad at all.

    There's only one mode, though. I think that the biggest strike against it is that people want more sPvP. And the fact that people have been farming rank points in skyhammer.

     

    I think it is more than that. It just hasn't caught on. It also isn't very fun to watch. There is a reason that is has almost no viewers on Twitch. If it was popular people would watch it to learn strategies and such. Almost no one streams it. 

    I went to twitch out of curiosity to see what it's about.  The only other MMO that has a similar sPvP set up that GW2 has (capture point BGs, arenas) that I noticed on there is WoW.  Of course WoW is going to have more viewers.  If you compare GW2 to mobas like LoL in terms of viewers/streamers then of course LoL will have more as well.  So other than mobas and WoW, what exactly are you using as a benchmark to determine what is considered a good number of viewers/streamers?  Just curious becuase you said almost no one streams it but when I did search I found a lot of channels and videos to watch.  So what is the cut off number to be considered "no one"?

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • woeyewoeye MunichPosts: 119Member

    It really depends on what you expect from PvP.

    If you just want to melt some faces and pew-pew than GW2 is fine. If you, however, are looking for more tactical play and team-work oriented PvP then GW2 isn't the right game imho. 

    Personally, my biggest issues with GW2's PvP are these:

    • WvW is for the most part (with some exceptions) all about numbers and coverage. If your server lacks the numbers you can either transfer to a high-pop server and join the lemmings or get used to being stomped over and over. And after getting stomped by huge blobs several weeks it becomes rather annoying. Transfering, however, isn't an option for me. I don't want to leave my guild behind. 
    • If ANet had put a population cap on the servers things might have been not so out-of-control. It's ok to get beaten by a server where the enemy players are just better. But getting outplayed due to the lack of "numbers" is frustrating. And this issue will only accelerate over time. Meaning more and more players might transfer to high-pop servers resulting in deserted remaining servers.
    • Team-play and synergy. GW2 is titled as a fast paced action MMO. Yes, it is fast paced. But at the same time I feel it is also very, very simple. Just mash buttons and hope that someone dies. There's rarely synergy between classes. Most things are done for you automatically (AoE damage, AoE buffs) and you rarely have to make choices. Take a look at some fast paced HoN games, heck even Dota 2, and compare it to GW2. GW2 is all about selfish pew-pew play.
    • Balance could be better. In WvW it's all about having "heavies" (guardians and warriors) in the frontline. Other classes can do ok but most guilds or groups will prefer certain classes because they perform better in WvW.
    • In SPvP the current balance is a bit off imho. What is really annoying is that the most easiest to plays classes/builds are also the most powerful. Normally you would expect high skill -> high reward but not in GW2. 
    • What is even more annoying is how long it takes ANet to do something. In other PvP games balancing tweaks happen much faster. But in GW2 everything besides PvE content takes ages. It seems ANet's focus is on PvE.
    Oh well, at least GW2 encouraged me to give HoN and Dota 2 a try. And after playing those I cannot bring myself to play PvP in GW2 anymore. But as I said at the beginning, I prefer tactical team-play. But that's just me. I guess GW2 is just not the right game for me.
     
  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,260Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nastyjman
    Originally posted by drakaena

    SPvP is trash. 

    The actual gameplay itself is good. My shouts Warrior is one of my favorite playstyles in MMO history. 

    But the PvP design itself is a bad joke.

    Yeah... I don't bother with sPvP. For some reason, I can't play it more than 3 rounds. I blame the single game mode we have in sPvP.

    WvW, however, is the bees-knees for me. I love the fact that open world PvP gets its own instance instead of it being open world. Call me carebear, but if I want to PvE, I want to PvE without the fear of getting ganked.

    Wpvp will not be redefined as instances. WvW is what it is, an eternal battle ground, minus the few minutes for rest ;)

  • Ender4Ender4 milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,253Member


    Call me carebear, but if I want to PvE, I want to PvE without the fear of getting ganked.


    Carebear!~

    I'm the opposite. PvE without the fear of being attacked just bores me to tears. It is the single biggest thing missing from GW2 and why I tend to quit characters before I even reach level 80. It also kind of ruins PvP in general to have it so clinical and pushed off into its own little box. My fondest memories of PvP are from raiding in EQ and having an enemy guild jump us and having to fight off players while doing the PvE, after that something like WvWvW just seems dull.

    GW2 PvP specifically I'd say there needs to be much more incentive to run around in smaller groups and better ways to know where enemies are. Getting into big Zerg on Zerg fights gets boring fast.

  • JoeyMMOJoeyMMO SomewherePosts: 1,326Member
    I'm not really into zerging, it's not like it requires skill or anything like that. sPvP on the other hand is pretty good even if you can find yourself outnumbered, there are some really good fights to be had in sPvP.

    imageimage
  • FlyinDutchman87FlyinDutchman87 London MIlls, ILPosts: 245Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Maurgrim

    I have read in many threads how GW2 made misstakes that for some reason made the PVP in the game a big fail, but what i never read so far is what are those misstakes Anet made that some people brings up all the time in GW2 forum and on other sub game forums.

    For me I enjoy SPVP very much and WvWvW is very fun, sure there are zerges running around but hey we are talking about servers here, not 5v5 epeen kids doing their thing.

    And I've read several posts about zergs are something bad in GW2 WvWvW, how is that bad, really I mean It's a frikkin server battle, didnt Allied troops zerged Germany in ww2? , Didn't USA and it's allies zerged Sadam?,  I mean what's so bad about zergs,? In my meaning a zerg is a army on a misson, Is that so bad?

    Depends what I'm doing.

     

    If I've been fighting a champion or something for like 15 mins and someone comes over and kicks me when I'm at like 500 HP I'm going to be pissed, that's just trolly.

     

    On the other hand I LOVED mining out in 0.0 and WH space in eve. You know your making good money and getting the fat loots, but that feeling of looking over your shoulder because you know someone is going to come soon and try and kill you is unmatched. It's making out in the living room when your 15(or in public when your old like me).  You KNOW your parents will be home soon, but the danger adds to the excitement.

     

  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Orlando, FLPosts: 842Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rodingo
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Vorch

    GW2's sPvP isn't bad at all.

    There's only one mode, though. I think that the biggest strike against it is that people want more sPvP. And the fact that people have been farming rank points in skyhammer.

     

    I think it is more than that. It just hasn't caught on. It also isn't very fun to watch. There is a reason that is has almost no viewers on Twitch. If it was popular people would watch it to learn strategies and such. Almost no one streams it. 

    I went to twitch out of curiosity to see what it's about.  The only other MMO that has a similar sPvP set up that GW2 has (capture point BGs, arenas) that I noticed on there is WoW.  Of course WoW is going to have more viewers.  If you compare GW2 to mobas like LoL in terms of viewers/streamers then of course LoL will have more as well.  So other than mobas and WoW, what exactly are you using as a benchmark to determine what is considered a good number of viewers/streamers?  Just curious becuase you said almost no one streams it but when I did search I found a lot of channels and videos to watch.  So what is the cut off number to be considered "no one"?

    It doesn't have many streamers or viewers. It is always around the 400-500 mark even during prime playing hours where WoW is like at 12-15K mark. Right now there are only 40 people streaming it.  It is comparable to a MOBA game in the fact that it is trying to be an E-sport.  

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • Neo_ViperNeo_Viper NotyourbusinessPosts: 598Member

    Oh yes, just the official GW2 Twitch channel has 3,356,819 viewers. But that's "not much" indeed.

    Things people say to bash this game...

    My computer is better than yours.

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Neo_Viper

    Oh yes, just the official GW2 Twitch channel has 3,356,819 viewers. But that's "not much" indeed.

    Things people say to bash this game...

     

    I think you're looking at the the wrong page, this is the one SBS means.

     

    http://www.twitch.tv/directory

     

    And this page..

    http://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Guild%20Wars%202

     

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • usuckmmorpgcomusuckmmorpgcom c, KYPosts: 1,348Member
    Originally posted by thecapitaine
    Considering DAoC is the forerunner for RvR MMOs, I wonder how the experience was there.  I never played more than a couple days so I'm curious if there was zerging and how realms dealt with big numbers imbalances from one side or the other.  In theory, the two underdogs are supposed to push against whomever is in the lead but has this ever worked in practice?  To what extent?  In any case, for lots of people there isn't any concrete reason why Wv3 doesn't appeal to them; it just doesn't.

    *can of worms*

    Oh boy...

    I think DAoC defined zerging, even though the term originated from Starcraft.

  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Orlando, FLPosts: 842Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Neo_Viper

    Oh yes, just the official GW2 Twitch channel has 3,356,819 viewers. But that's "not much" indeed.

    Things people say to bash this game...

    That is all time viewers. The numbers I stated are true. Follow the link the other guy posted. LOL has 94K viewers right now, and GW2 only has 371. That is less than FF14, Diablo3, and even Runescape. 

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • usuckmmorpgcomusuckmmorpgcom c, KYPosts: 1,348Member
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Neo_Viper

    Oh yes, just the official GW2 Twitch channel has 3,356,819 viewers. But that's "not much" indeed.

    Things people say to bash this game...

    That is all time viewers. The numbers I stated are true. Follow the link the other guy posted. LOL has 94K viewers right now, and GW2 only has 371. That is less than FF14, Diablo3, and even Runescape. 

    And let's not forget Pokemon x/y with around 9K right now. lol

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Neo_Viper

    Oh yes, just the official GW2 Twitch channel has 3,356,819 viewers. But that's "not much" indeed.

    Things people say to bash this game...

    That is all time viewers. The numbers I stated are true. Follow the link the other guy posted. LOL has 94K viewers right now, and GW2 only has 371. That is less than FF14, Diablo3, and even Runescape. 

    Blizzard has one of the biggest (and most loyal) fanbases of any IP. It's only trumped by star wars, and that's not even close on the twitch viewers.

    FF14 is a brand new game, and doesn't have that many more viewers than GW2 does (floats around ~600).

    I'm sorry, but twitch just isn't a reliable metric for success. In order for it to be, you need to find a legitimate correlation between twitch views and a game's actual population.

  • drakaenadrakaena Posts: 488Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Neo_Viper

    Oh yes, just the official GW2 Twitch channel has 3,356,819 viewers. But that's "not much" indeed.

    Things people say to bash this game...

    That is all time viewers. The numbers I stated are true. Follow the link the other guy posted. LOL has 94K viewers right now, and GW2 only has 371. That is less than FF14, Diablo3, and even Runescape. 

    Blizzard has one of the biggest (and most loyal) fanbases of any IP. It's only trumped by star wars, and that's not even close on the twitch viewers.

    FF14 is a brand new game, and doesn't have that many more viewers than GW2 does (floats around ~600).

    I'm sorry, but twitch just isn't a reliable metric for success. In order for it to be, you need to find a legitimate correlation between twitch views and a game's actual population.

    The vast majority of PvP players almost unanimously agree that GW2 PvP is a tire fire. 

    What more evidence do you need? 

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JoeyMMO
    I'm not really into zerging, it's not like it requires skill or anything like that. sPvP on the other hand is pretty good even if you can find yourself outnumbered, there are some really good fights to be had in sPvP.

    Problem is, 'zerging' has become a blanket term for any large scale combat. The assumption being that if there's a lot of people, there is no skill, and the implication being that there is only skill in smaller / 1v1-1vX combat.

    This is false. If there is no skill in zerging, then there is no skill in raiding. Then there is no skill in any large-scale combat. In reality, there is only little skill in following a zerg.

    Nearly all zergs in this game revolve around a group of organized players. Random people may follow them around (and often die), but the decisions are often being made by people in voice chat, making intelligent decisions based on scouted info, map pings, resources, etc. It's a strategy / pvp game. It's true that a lot of the skills needed for sPvP are less important in WvW, but there is also a different set of skills needed to be good at WvW. Knowledge of proper siege placement, tactical thinking, map awareness, etc. are all very important. This is especially true at the top tiers of this game.

    Earlier in this thread was also posted a video of a 5 man taking on a T1 zerg on their own. The truth is, that is more common than most people seem to think. The problem is, many people are looking for these experiences in the wrong way. They are expecting to be soloing these experiences which are mainly meant for organized group play.

    - The thing people need to realize is that in any large scale PvP game (Battlefield, Planteside, DAoC, Shadowbane, Eve, etc.) you will have 'zerging'. That's kind of the point. It's supposed to be massive combat, and as a result people tend to group up for survival. However, that doesn't mean you have to turn yourself into a mindless drone, following around the masses. And that is the assumption far too many players seem to make.

  • ComafComaf Chicago, ILPosts: 1,154Member Common

    Senseless E-Sport nonsense filled with silly named people who solo for a flag capture. 

     

    i.e., the opposite of everything that Dark Age of Camelot was in RvR.

     

    That pretty much sums it up.

    image
  • MahavishnuMahavishnu BerlinPosts: 336Member

    It is  not :)

    I did nothing else for half a year and it was fantastic.

    Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Neo_Viper

    Oh yes, just the official GW2 Twitch channel has 3,356,819 viewers. But that's "not much" indeed.

    Things people say to bash this game...

    That is all time viewers. The numbers I stated are true. Follow the link the other guy posted. LOL has 94K viewers right now, and GW2 only has 371. That is less than FF14, Diablo3, and even Runescape. 

    Blizzard has one of the biggest (and most loyal) fanbases of any IP. It's only trumped by star wars, and that's not even close on the twitch viewers.

    FF14 is a brand new game, and doesn't have that many more viewers than GW2 does (floats around ~600).

    I'm sorry, but twitch just isn't a reliable metric for success. In order for it to be, you need to find a legitimate correlation between twitch views and a game's actual population.

     

    So the top 4 played PvP games in the gaming world at the moment are at between 100k and 40k viewers viewing and GW2 cannot muster more than 500 viewers is not a indication of PvP not living up to its billing? If that's not evidence then I don't know what to say. GW2 was going have the most epic battles requiring skill never seen before in an MMO wasn't it? well all those Twitch PvP addicts don't think so and the point of the thread is about why there is disquiet about the quality of the PvP not the population of the game as a whole.

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Orlando, FLPosts: 842Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Neo_Viper

    Oh yes, just the official GW2 Twitch channel has 3,356,819 viewers. But that's "not much" indeed.

    Things people say to bash this game...

    That is all time viewers. The numbers I stated are true. Follow the link the other guy posted. LOL has 94K viewers right now, and GW2 only has 371. That is less than FF14, Diablo3, and even Runescape. 

    Blizzard has one of the biggest (and most loyal) fanbases of any IP. It's only trumped by star wars, and that's not even close on the twitch viewers.

    FF14 is a brand new game, and doesn't have that many more viewers than GW2 does (floats around ~600).

    I'm sorry, but twitch just isn't a reliable metric for success. In order for it to be, you need to find a legitimate correlation between twitch views and a game's actual population.

    First off, we are talking about PvP not population. This just shows how little the interest in PvP is as most popular PvP games are watched heavily on Twitch. Twitch numbers are very important to E-sports...and as a matter of fact both Final Fantasy (579) and EvE (415) have almost twice as many viewers as GW2 right now. Just like they did a few hours ago when I posted the first time. 

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,731Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thecapitaine
    Considering DAoC is the forerunner for RvR MMOs, I wonder how the experience was there.  I never played more than a couple days so I'm curious if there was zerging and how realms dealt with big numbers imbalances from one side or the other.  In theory, the two underdogs are supposed to push against whomever is in the lead but has this ever worked in practice?  To what extent?  In any case, for lots of people there isn't any concrete reason why Wv3 doesn't appeal to them; it just doesn't.

     I didnt play DAoC for great lengths, but the few tiems I did I spent most of the time being one shot by stealth classes...I had heard how great RVR was but I never really experienced it.

  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABPosts: 2,125Member Uncommon

    Personally I think it is because of identity crisis. It was touted to be the next big pvp mmo but in reality it is just a zoned massive battleground. It is hard to sell the game on the hardcore mmo pvp crowd when the game is pretty much entirely pve with some pvp "options". This means pvp isn't real and the developers cater to both pve and pvp players separately just like Wow and other themeparks do. It is both different yet very much the same.

     

    If GW2 took a real direction choice instead of trying to do the same "differently" it would likely manage to attract the core audience it wants. Instead GW2 is just a different way to try make everybody happy just like Wow tries to do.

    You stay sassy!

  • Bad.dogBad.dog Belleville, ONPosts: 1,108Member
    Originally posted by Tamanous

    Personally I think it is because of identity crisis. It was touted to be the next big pvp mmo but in reality it is just a zoned massive battleground. It is hard to sell the game on the hardcore mmo pvp crowd when the game is pretty much entirely pve with some pvp "options". This means pvp isn't real and the developers cater to both pve and pvp players separately just like Wow and other themeparks do. It is both different yet very much the same.

     

    If GW2 took a real direction choice instead of trying to do the same "differently" it would likely manage to attract the core audience it wants. Instead GW2 is just a different way to try make everybody happy just like Wow tries to do.

    Perhaps GW2 does attract the core audience it wanted ?...and had no intention of catering to the dipshit hardcore  mmo pvp crowd .

  • Neo_ViperNeo_Viper NotyourbusinessPosts: 598Member
    Originally posted by Comaf

    Senseless E-Sport nonsense filled with silly named people who solo for a flag capture. 

     

    i.e., the opposite of everything that Dark Age of Camelot was in RvR.

     

    That pretty much sums it up.

    Truly spoken as someone who either never played GW2's World vs World or who is not telling the truth about it just to fit his own agenda. Solo flag capture? Yeah, sure.

    That pretty much sums it up.

    PS: about the silly names, DAoC had it's fill of them too. UO had it's fill of them. In every MMORPG, you will have people with silly names, that's the nature of the Internet community and having so many different people with different culture, knowledge, education levels and intelligence mixed together.

    My computer is better than yours.

  • HalandirHalandir nnPosts: 758Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tamanous

    Personally I think it is because of identity crisis. It was touted to be the next big pvp mmo but in reality it is just a zoned massive battleground. It is hard to sell the game on the hardcore mmo pvp crowd when the game is pretty much entirely pve with some pvp "options". This means pvp isn't real and the developers cater to both pve and pvp players separately just like Wow and other themeparks do. It is both different yet very much the same.

     

    If GW2 took a real direction choice instead of trying to do the same "differently" it would likely manage to attract the core audience it wants. Instead GW2 is just a different way to try make everybody happy just like Wow tries to do.

    Erm you are right about a certain degree of identity crisis but for all the wrong reasons. You just chose to interpret everything GW2 pvp was supposed to be, filtered into your own personal (ultra niche) context.

    GW2 was supposed to have a STRUCTURED pvp format that was as engaging and competetive as the major structured formats in Guild Wars. On top of that they would have a large scale, 3 worlds vs eachother, PvE'ish format for some casual, less structured pvp-fun for everyone.

    While the sPvP was indeed somewhat of a dissapointment compared to the original Giuild Wars formats, the WvW is pretty much everything it was supposed to be.

    As for the "hardcore MMO pvp crowd"... It is more like a flock or group. There IS a reason why big developers are rather indifferent to their wishes and demands.

     

    We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
    (repeat ad infinitum)

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