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Bring Back Crowd Control

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  • sacredfoolsacredfool prague, TXPosts: 760Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gholos

    /agree with OP...in general: give to all the classes a specific role and unique skills that are REALLY ESSENTIAL for the rest of the party.

    EQN is supposed to be a MMO not a single player game, players have to rely on others...dont make GW2 mistakes!!!

    Play Kithai 6mans in Age of Conan. ;)


    Originally posted by nethaniah

    Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.


  • SiugSiug TallinnPosts: 1,236Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by solarbear88
    Been playing alot of GW2 and LOL lately. And reflecting on why pvp in gw2 is so little fun to play and lol is.

    I think to truly make a balanced game. That is fun to play:

    Each class should have 1 and no more than 1 CC and some classes may sacrifice this CC for more damage, healing or support.

    Single target needs to be more powerful than AOE. if you want AOE to be poewerful and still balanced, it needs to damage friend and foe.

    Not everything revolves around PvP. CC was removed because of PvP in first place and to bring it back in a meaningful way PvE and PvP combat mechanics should be separated. I honestly have no idea how to do it without instancing ie ruining everything but I'd personally play a good EQ style MMO on a pure PvE server without any PvP.

  • solarbear88solarbear88 BathurstPosts: 73Member
    Pvp is the big issue with cc. Any retard can develop a cc class for pve.

    And before we get off on a pvp vs pve debate,

    Both are equally imprtant to a game.
  • KarbleKarble San Diego, CAPosts: 741Member
    Originally posted by solarbear88
    Pvp is the big issue with cc. Any retard can develop a cc class for pve.

    And before we get off on a pvp vs pve debate,

    Both are equally imprtant to a game.

    Good fighting games have it correct.

    You should have a break out ability/combo breaker ability.

    Basically it is up to you to choose that as one of your skills.

    If you pick this skill over others it will give you an uninterruptible skill or spell to get out of CC for both PvP and PvE

    problem solved.

  • SirBalinSirBalin Joppa, MDPosts: 1,150Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Pigglesworth

    I would like to see the game bring back the NEED for crowd control. EQ2 at release made great use of stuns, roots, fear, etc. But, after a couple expansion, everyone just ends up using area effect spells on everything.

    Crowd control is great for breaking up a group of mobs, such as allowing you to root the fighter in a group while you whack on the mages. Or fearing a healer in a group, allowing you to pound on the others. Stuns, interrupts, all the fun stuff.

    They used to be the foundation of several support classes, but those skills really aren't necessary anymore.

    Please bring them back.

    Absolutely no way....CC kills pvp in games.  I don't mind a little...but most games have CC that just takes over and the game is all about CC. 

    Incognito
    www.incognito-gaming.us
    "You're either with us or against us"

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,544Member Uncommon

    Reading all the dev announced features - EQN so far has removed every cool mechanic from EQ1 - the game to me screams "ultra casual"

    IMO the chance of a CC class in EQN is about nil.

    Not gonna happen, not in this one.

     

  • LokeroLokero Posts: 375Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Lonzo
    I loved the need of CC in EQ1. Made the fights so much more difficult and fun. :-)

    Originally posted by Fubarbox
    I 100% would love to see crowed control back in a meaningful way. I am tired of just being able to zerg at mobs. My wife played an Enchanter in Eq1 and has been missing the profession since. It was always great to play with good enchanters!

    Enchanter in EQ1 was a crazy exciting class to play in dungeon groups.  EQ1 did so many things right, even though half of them were accidental.  FD pulling, enchanters, amazing buff system, etc.

    I do agree that the EQ1 enchanters were a little too powerful though.  There needs to be an upper limit on how many targets you could affect at once.  Enchanters were so powerful that they could chain stun an entire dungeon while wizards AoE'd them to death, etc.  Stuns needed a maximum # of targets, and mez probably should have only been able to be cast on so many targets at a time.

    Later on, enchanters and CC became fairly worthless in EQ though.  Instead of cleaning up the system with sensible nerfs they just made the entire system irrelevant by giving all mobs immunity to CC.

    I would like to see a class like Enchanter again, or something similar that focuses on CC.  I think it's a very unique support role that alot of people miss.  I'd love to see things like FD pulling make a comeback, too.  Pulling, in general, is a dead art much like CC.

    Yes, PvP is a different story with CC, and a CC class would need completely different balancing in PvP than in PvE, but I don't think that's an excuse to not have one ever.  All classes get balanced differently in PvP than PvE in most games anyhow.  Most classes in the last several MMO rehashes have had some type of CC, so it's not really that big of a deal.

    Everything today is just a mess with a bunch of players spamming dps/aoe on a blob of enemies with no thinking required. It's a sad state these days.

  • VutarVutar BaghdadPosts: 773Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Pigglesworth

    I would like to see the game bring back the NEED for crowd control. EQ2 at release made great use of stuns, roots, fear, etc. But, after a couple expansion, everyone just ends up using area effect spells on everything.

    Crowd control is great for breaking up a group of mobs, such as allowing you to root the fighter in a group while you whack on the mages. Or fearing a healer in a group, allowing you to pound on the others. Stuns, interrupts, all the fun stuff.

    They used to be the foundation of several support classes, but those skills really aren't necessary anymore.

    Please bring them back.

     I agree but it will not happen. This game is all about appealing to the masses. Little Johnny will not like it if he is expected to do anything but mash a couple buttons over and over with his face. Games that require thought and decision making are frowned upon these days. If the game does not have a mindless zerg mentality the masses will not play it. So which game do you think EQnext will be when it is trying to appeal to the masses?

  • tmann50tmann50 CuencaPosts: 70Member

    The problem with MMo's today is PVP! Idiot devs waste way too much and time catering to this loud, slightly demented minority ruining what could be many awesome games to cater to whining fools who think their sick need to assault others is more important then having games that are fun and worth playing....as has been for many years now PvP is the problem not the solution...make the sickos go away and mmos will be fun again

     

  • Riqqy82Riqqy82 Wyoming, MIPosts: 24Member
    Originally posted by ego13
    Originally posted by jusomdude

    @cirin

    My point is your less damage when cc'd doesn't work, and it still stands.

    Quite simply put...it does.  You never refuted my point at all.  You merely whined about how you would watch your friend die...cool story, no one cares.

     

    To recap what I had ALREADY pointed out, since you obviously overlooked it.

    MMO's are group-based games, so if you are in a group-based fight and are left mez'd indefinitely then your group was merely outplayed.  If your teammates didn't cleanse, heal, or kill the other group then (again), looks like you lost (again).

    Ego If you are CC'd why isnt your group members removing the debuff? sounds to me you need a better group, not have the devs auto debuff you. again mmorpg - role playing, you way of thinking is that of having 1 man or woman in the world being able to do everything imaginable to man, a man with no arms cant throw a baseball man, but with the help of a doctor, he could have a prosthetic arm put on, have the docter then clamp it around a baseball, and the kid could throw the ball. ITs an easy concept really, and to be honest, thats what MMOs are missing these days, the dependence of other players, if you want the world at your finger tips man go play RTS games like warcraft and starcraft.

    image
  • HalandirHalandir nnPosts: 758Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bigmamajama
    In before the GW2 freaks post to tell you having to rely on OTHER PEOPLE in an MMO is bad.

    I wouldn't do that.

    Actually I hope each and every CC-fan get exactly what they wan't in EQ Next. Who knows... Those people might stop pouring out their CC-demanding idiocy in the the GW2 community?

    For that reason alone I hope EQ-N will give them every conceiveable sleep, permastunlock and unavoidable fear they can dream up. As long as they keep those mechanics away from "our" game! (GW2).

     

     

    We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
    (repeat ad infinitum)

  • Riqqy82Riqqy82 Wyoming, MIPosts: 24Member
    everything should be the same in pvp and pve, no cc is indefinate with another class to remove that cc, i remember killing a top guild enchanter and pally in Bastion of Thunder back in the day while they were trying to take my groups rare spawn by simply spamming Nullify Magic on the enchanters charmed krieger, point is, if your parnter is being chain cc'd, then you need to be chain dispelling them, its the counter, deal with it, where is your cc back up should be the question in your head, multi classing is complete garbage, along with instances, if their werent instances, the communities in these mmos wouldnt have half the assholes they do. sorry for the language. Community, and diversity, banding together to overcome that which they couldnt not do themselves. you want your cc breaker? its the cleric or druid over there to your right.

    image
  • deadhead74deadhead74 oak forest, ILPosts: 17Member
    Its easier for a dev to put in a super kool double action spin attack of blazing doom.  Kids today just want mass slaughter like GW2.  Just spin to win and collect lewts.  Would love to see CC make a comeback.
  • Shayyd80Shayyd80 Forsyth, GAPosts: 110Member
    I like both PvE and PvP however, I hate CC in PvP (makes it boring and annoying) but for PvE it works great because it lets people play their class and their role in a group or raid better. Original Everquest had it right when they built their classes. Each class had specific roles. You knew every time what you would be doing in a group and you would strive to get better and better at it. These days things are too sugar coated. I understand players want more choice and control and customization of their character but... that's what alts are for I.M.O.
  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Potomac, MDPosts: 1,018Member Uncommon

    The concept of CC suffers from crippling overspecialization.  Even if you DO somehow "balance" it correctly, by nature it's going to be either too powerful (when you're fighting a crowd) or too useless (when you're... well, not fighting a crowd).  That's assuming you somehow manage to "balance" it in the first place so that it's useful for what it does (crowd control) without being too powerful for everything else as well, which is already really difficult to do.

  • funyahnsfunyahns michigan city, INPosts: 315Member

     So, the only people who do no want Enchanters back and powerful are people concerned with PvP? Reminds me why I dislike pvp in these games. Trying to balance stuff out to fit both play styles is never going to work. At least not as well if you truly focused in on one aspect over the other.

  • Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by Bigmamajama
    In before the GW2 freaks post to tell you having to rely on OTHER PEOPLE in an MMO is bad.

    I bye a game to play and win, not to be CC'd and lose!

     

     

     

     

    You should "bye" a dictionary.

  • Ender4Ender4 milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,253Member


    Originally posted by funyahns
     So, the only people who do no want Enchanters back and powerful are people concerned with PvP? Reminds me why I dislike pvp in these games. Trying to balance stuff out to fit both play styles is never going to work. At least not as well if you truly focused in on one aspect over the other.

    Your point is completely off base. CC was way too powerful in regular EQ because it was too reliable and let you lock down mobs for infinite time frames. Disliking PvP because it makes you actually balance the game is just silly as well. There is almost never something that is balanced in PvE yet overpowered in PvP, the range of how overpowered it is does vary but the fact it is overpowered in the first place almost never does.

  • mysticalunamysticaluna Scotia, NYPosts: 265Member Uncommon

    I miss Crowd control and pulling that required skill on EQ1... 

    Of course enchanters were op with runes that let them tank mobs in plane of earth, but the crowd control was why they were meant to have poor dps, except for that insanely dangerous charm that would break and wipe the group. 

    Now, they just turned enchanters and bards on Everquest 2 into dps classes that top the dps chart, and don't do any form of crowd control ><. 

    Buffs in Everquest 1 were better and more complicated, bards were awesome without melody command although carpel tunnel set in, and it would be sweet if they'd actually bring back cc functionality. Bards used to mana drain Gorenaire before a pull so she couldn't cast spells to heal herself... 

    Why did they take mana drain out of Everquest 2 and put dmg on the spell instead? 

    Sick and tired of enchanters being dps chain casting , this is nothing like Everquest 1's version of the enchanter class. 

    All they do is quick spam chain casting on Everquest 2. Also, the inability to permanently buff means you can't get a clarity and keep it from an enchanter, as you have to be in group with them the entire time to get mana. 

    Now, mobs are linked and you can't seperate them on pull, there is no longer any skill in pulling, monks/bards/rangers used to be awesome pullers. Debuffs used to actually matter on a shaman!! 

  • mysticalunamysticaluna Scotia, NYPosts: 265Member Uncommon

    Oh, Mezmerize was never op in pvp and has nothing to do with it. If you were fighting an enchanter all you did was click a weak detrimental damage over time (dot) on yourself, and the mez would instantly break each tick. 

    No enchanter would use mez as a viable pvp strategy, instead they'd use charm and try to get you to fall into lava or run you off a cliff. However, even with tashania couldn't you get a high sv magic to resist them? 

    I know that my wizard was useless in pvp duels, because I could just be resisted up the wazoo and lures were to weak. So, I dunno how hard it would be to resist an enchanter's charm. It was funny how enchanters could charm pets to wipe out their master, but mez was really a fun game mechanic back then and pvp shouldn't reduce the variety of pve gamestyles. 

    PVP always ends up nerfing and turning pve into a boring homogenized dull monotonous game. 

    Didn't all races on wow lose racial traits like night elf starfall because of pvp inbalances? I dunno, I was disappointed when they took the racial quests spells out and redesigned it . 

    Of course Mesmerize was overpowered with the ability to cast tashania magic debuff. However, it didn't have to be that way. Everquest 2 made charm so easy and yet so gimp weak at the same time. Guarenteed 30 minutes that the mob won't break, however it hits so weak. Everquest 1 the mob would break at any second in tipt and would wipe the group. 

    Charm should have been an extremely powerful but deadly spell, not a gimp weakling mob that loses all of its strength, but won't break for half an hour spell. 

    They didn't want enchanters to op with charm so they nerfed it all the way down, however, what they did on Everquest 2 makes more sense. With mob immunities they can't be charmed if they are elite powerful mobs. Bosses can't be charmed or mezmerized, therefore why make the lower trash that can be charmed so gimp? Just pick what people are allowed to charm, and let them retain their power. 

    Make it like Everquest 1 again, where we had no idea what trash would summon and kill us, or what was snare/root immune and would kill us. You would have to figure out what mobs charm and mez. Or what mobs were immune with high magic sv. They need to bring skill back to games. 

  • mysticalunamysticaluna Scotia, NYPosts: 265Member Uncommon

    You could mez 6 mobs or so on Everquest 2, which was enough for Sandstorm in Maidens. However, they didn't usually give you enough adds to make all of that power useful, especially when they gave Ilusionists an extra mez that is never needed. 

    So, an ily could probably hold down an additional 1 or 2 mobs that a coercer can't for perhaps 7 or 8 mobs held down? Or, if you're counting aoe linked mobs you could then hold down even more. 

    Still, if they were going to make mez harder to do, they'd have to take away enchanters dps role, now they are expected in EQ2 to pull out high numbers while ccing, just like bards are expected to hit jester's cap and be buff bots while topping the dps chart. 

    Back in Everquest 1 no one expected an enchanter or a bard to be dps, which meant their entire job was cc and debuff/buffing. 

    Bards cc was far more challenging than enchanters, but enchanters in EQ1 still had to do debuffs and runes on themselves as well as party members, and watch the buff timers. By making cc harder, they would have been adding in another mana drain on enchanters (in original EQ1) back when they didn't have enough mana to use. In the days before KEI, clarity was not providing much mana and there was no AA or flowing thought mana focus on equipment. 

    Out of combat regen was terrible, so an enchanter had to sit for a long period of time to have the mana to buff, legacy of ykesha mana drain spell theft of thought was used constantly for mana. If they had to keep mezzing back then, they would have had no mana to be doing the buffs that wore off in less than an hour. There was also no buff extension AA or focus, and no mass group buff AA. 

    I don't think they should have ever upped the out of combat regen so much as they did, the social mmo aspect came from the waiting on buffs and mana... Clarity was a must have to speed up the regen!! Of course, it isn't as bad as it is on EQ2, where they really made food and drink nearly worthless, since out of combat a starved dehydrated char will still regain all their mana and hp just fine! 

  • ReappahxReappahx Toronto, ONPosts: 1Member

    Channeled AOE CC

    /problemsolved

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Larvae
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by Bigmamajama
    In before the GW2 freaks post to tell you having to rely on OTHER PEOPLE in an MMO is bad.

    I bye a game to play and win, not to be CC'd and lose!

     

    You should "bye" a dictionary.

    The sarcasm was lost over the past few months image

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    I fully agree with this, but old fashioned crowd controll has almost litterally been killed by PvPers...

     

    and no developer ever understood how to ballance cc for PvP only.... Thats by giving gear an extra Stat that reduces the length of crowd control greatly, making that 2 minutes mezz just  last 12 secconds... Or so

         That is the problem with just about any class defining role, rather it be CC or kiting..  PvPer's would cry nerf if an EQ druid kited them to death..  As much the 2nd part sounds good, it in turn fails as well which devs are aware of..  Some classes like EQ chanters LIVE to buff and CC.. if you gimp those class roles to only short term abilites..  They will get owned in PvP, and people won't play those classes.. 

         So what we have are games in which classes are designed around the PvP model..  Which is a real shame for those of us that enjoy a robust PvE world with countless options..

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