Originally posted by Metrobius When did they say there would be no unique racial abilities? In other games I enjoyed the drastic racial differences, but the class system in eqn makes more freedom seem attractive to me.
I'm not sure if they explicitly said that there will be no racial abilities, but it is kind of implied. Their design philosophy is that there shouldn't be any choices to make that couldn't be changed. So if there is a new flavour of the month build you would always be able to use it no matter what decisions you made in the past, including the choice of your race. This wouldn't be possible if a build contained a racial ability.
They already made it possible to switch around your class as much as you want. I guess doing the same thing with the race would be to silly even for SOEs standards.
There is a difference between freedom and refusing to make any decisions. It seems SOE doesn't have much confidence in its players. It seems they assume their players are very fickle individuals who are afraid of making decisions.
If you decide to do A you always also decide to not do B; this is how it works. If you ask me making decision is a crucial aspect of rpgs. If every decision can be easily reversed, it makes the whole thing kind of arbitrary.
SOE seems to have this strange approach to game design where they adapt some debateable design ideas early on and then they just go with it no matter what other aspect of the game they have to butcher later on to make it happen.
I agree that making decisions that have an impact on your character is a good thing. In this case, SOE seems to be building those types of decisions into the game world instead of into characters.
It's a great system for Planetside 2, but not for a MMORPG. As many have stated throughout the course of this discussion, you need racial characteristics for the sake of immersion, and the ability to just swap out your class is downright absurd. It takes away from the entire concept of a role playing game by making you some sort of disembodied phantasm that can shift at will...no true being, just a fabricant governed by whim alone.
Initially, many will be awestruck by the potentially rich background of their race, the surroundings within the game, and the non-playable characters of their respective race. This, however, will fade come mid to late game when this wears off...because you're not going to FEEL like the race you're playing due to the fact that there's nothing that defines them but their appearance. If you play an Elf, eventually you're going to feel quite jaded when an Elf feels like a Human and any other race you play...
Same holds true for the classes. Given the ability to swap into another class will present a watered down jack of all trades kind of feel. While it may seem silly, we need these restrictions in order to feel tied to our characters.
Now, when it comes to giving races the ability to play every class, I completely agree. I'm one who believes that if you want to use a class, you should have that capability despite your race. I also believe that racial limitations, when it comes to statistics, shouldn't be detrimental in making this choice. If you play a small race that wouldn't generally be perceived as strong...you shouldn't be denied the ability to play an effective warrior if you choose. Still...your size should come into play in a realistic sense.
Perhaps you don't have as much strength as a larger race would, but your dexterity provides a significant boost in dodge capabilities that make up for this slight limitation. This would leave a smaller race more than capable of playing an effective warrior if done right.
That's how these racial limitations should play out. If you play a huge race that benefits from strength rather than intelligence, well...let that strength oriented race play a more combat oriented mage type character to compensate...or be a more tanky mage.
Who knows.
It'll obviously take a great deal of balance...but that's what these people are being paid for, a well designed product.
I've a heart of pure black jade, beating forth the ebon ink of shattered dreams. So spread those thighs my darlings, and let me hear those lustful screams... For twisting coils and silken strands, my venom coursing through your veins. It's my bliss you seek, to ease those troubled pains...
That is what they promised to us, I'm still waiting for a faction/alignment system that will blow me away. It depends on what StoryBricks can actually do and if SOE can put it to good use. If there will be something that makes up for the class/race system I would be pleased. But having no racial abilities would still be kind of a wasted opputunity.
I dont' really get the whole "racism" argument here...
First off I don't think anyone is going to argue... there are more black people on a football team then asian.. why?
genetics..
Nothing wrong with that, I am not a racist. I beleive all men(& woman) are created equal.. but that doesn't mean that ANYONE can become a star athelete..
Anyways, as far as a MMO goes. I don't like classes being race locked. But I do like if they have different bonuses..
example would be FFXI, you could play a taru and get more magika, but if you played a galka (one of the big dudes) you were more suited to being a mele fighter.. made sense... and a galka COULD be a mage.. he just didn't have as big of a magika pool..
Yeah you are jumping to a pretty huge conclusion here.
I fear you are correct though. One of the biggest problems with current MMORPG is being afraid of making players more diverse. The race you pick should have large implications to your character, not just be cosmetic.
If race has no consequence then I think you should be allowed to play a featureless sphere that can wear all armor and use any weapon without the graphic showing.
I dont' really get the whole "racism" argument here...
First off I don't think anyone is going to argue... there are more black people on a football team then asian.. why?
genetics..
Nothing wrong with that, I am not a racist. I beleive all men(& woman) are created equal.. but that doesn't mean that ANYONE can become a star athelete..
Anyways, as far as a MMO goes. I don't like classes being race locked. But I do like if they have different bonuses..
example would be FFXI, you could play a taru and get more magika, but if you played a galka (one of the big dudes) you were more suited to being a mele fighter.. made sense... and a galka COULD be a mage.. he just didn't have as big of a magika pool..
anyways my $0.02
Wow I'm sorry but you're completely wrong! It has more to do with conditioning and environment than genetics....lord.
Case in point: Go to Hawaii and put together an all asian football team then head to Ethiopia and do the same. Then you tell me why are the black guys all skinny and the asian guys all huge? Absolutely NOTHING to do with genetics! Try again. By the way there are more asian star athletes in this world than black star athletes or did you mean just in Amerka? Ohh I see your line of thinking now...so stereotypical.
Anywho, racial traits, bonuses, features are not really needed if you think of all the races as cultures not depended on each others. Not all orcs are strong, not all dwarves are dumb, not all elves are weak. In each of those cultures I'm sure there are some smart orcs. They may not be called mages but shamans instead. Maybe fast dwarves are called rogues and not thieves like they are in human cultures. But if they want to make things appear multicultural, then racial differences would make some sense.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I dont' really get the whole "racism" argument here...
First off I don't think anyone is going to argue... there are more black people on a football team then asian.. why?
genetics..
Nothing wrong with that, I am not a racist. I beleive all men(& woman) are created equal.. but that doesn't mean that ANYONE can become a star athelete..
Anyways, as far as a MMO goes. I don't like classes being race locked. But I do like if they have different bonuses..
example would be FFXI, you could play a taru and get more magika, but if you played a galka (one of the big dudes) you were more suited to being a mele fighter.. made sense... and a galka COULD be a mage.. he just didn't have as big of a magika pool..
anyways my $0.02
Wow I'm sorry but you're completely wrong! It has more to do with conditioning and environment than genetics....lord.
Case in point: Go to Hawaii and put together an all asian football team then head to Ethiopia and do the same. Then you tell me why are the black guys all skinny and the asian guys all huge? Absolutely NOTHING to do with genetics! Try again. By the way there are more asian star athletes in this world than black star athletes or did you mean just in Amerka? Ohh I see your line of thinking now...so stereotypical.
Anywho, racial traits, bonuses, features are not really needed if you think of all the races as cultures not depended on each others. Not all orcs are strong, not all dwarves are dumb, not all elves are weak. In each of those cultures I'm sure there are some smart orcs. They may not be called mages but shamans instead. Maybe fast dwarves are called rogues and not thieves like they are in human cultures. But if they want to make things appear multicultural, then racial differences would make some sense.
Actually,
You're both partially right; it's genetics, conditioning, and environment. The differing ethnic backgrounds do indeed have genetically differing characteristics that provide them benefits within specific situations. For example, Tibetans have larger lungs to deal with the high altitudes they reside in and there are many other physical characteristics that ethnicities have based upon where they reside, these were adaptations that helped them excel within their surrounding habitat and are genetically passed on to their children.
These are, however, starting blocks that conditioning and environment shape throughout the course of life. An easier example would be through the use of canine species. A pittbull is bred to be genetically superior for combat purposes, but if you practically starve a pittbull and leave it in terrible conditions...it's going to be far weaker than even a collie that has lived a good life.
There's an Asian boy on youtube that has, for whatever the reason, unique eyes that grant him the ability to see within nearly pitch black conditions much like a feline. This is a genetic fluke that could, potentially, be passed on to his children. Were the boy within a very small community and several individuals all developed this mutation, then bred amongst one another, you'd eventually develop an ethnicity with this unique feature.
This isn't racism, this is evolution, genetics.
Some genetics are superior to others, it's just how nature works. Still, as you said, the surrounding conditions and environment also play a huge factor in the developing of full potential for these genetics.
You did bring up an interesting idea though...
Different ethnic backgrounds of these fantasy races could indeed possess different genetic boons over one another. You could have more intelligently magic adept Orcs in one providence and more brutish and warrior-like Orcs in another. The Elder Scrolls does this fairly well amongst the various human types...but not in the other races. Each Human variant in the Elder Scrolls has different pros and cons, but why don't more games do this with ALL their races...surely every race is going to have differing genetics in the way humans do.
I've a heart of pure black jade, beating forth the ebon ink of shattered dreams. So spread those thighs my darlings, and let me hear those lustful screams... For twisting coils and silken strands, my venom coursing through your veins. It's my bliss you seek, to ease those troubled pains...
Looks like another potentially great game goes down the crapper...one of the most fun aspects of EQ1 was the option to have alts of different races that had specific classes you needed for raids etc....another game falls victim of the brain broken no consequences to your actions mind set of the messed up current world....what a shame...game had potential if it actually treated people like adults instead of children...free to do anything with no consequences at all....no wonder the damn place is fallin apart
...free to do anything with no consequences at all....
Actually, i believe that this is the whole point - that there are consequences for WHAT YOU DO, not for a random uneducated choice you made before even starting to play (i.e. race).
If you choose to piss off a certain faction, or a certain race or whatever, there will be consequences for DOING it.
Strict racial restrictions in a world of immortal adventurers and magic are one of the dumbest ideas. Your character spends their entire life in the company of elves that use swords, yet because you're a half-elf, you're magically incapable of picking up a sword yourself despite there being magic in the game that lets you do all kinds of other impossible things. really, it's idiotic to have these types of restrictions.
I can understand having certain "tendencies", such as swordsmanship not being taught in your race's city and you having to go out in the world make friends with a race that teaches it. That type of thing makes sense to me. But some artificial thing that prevents you from learning something, especially when magic exists to overcome any physical inadequacies, it simply makes no sense and I'm quite happy it doesn't exist.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
...free to do anything with no consequences at all....
Actually, i believe that this is the whole point - that there are consequences for WHAT YOU DO, not for a random uneducated choice you made before even starting to play (i.e. race).
If you choose to piss off a certain faction, or a certain race or whatever, there will be consequences for DOING it.
Strict racial restrictions in a world of immortal adventurers and magic are one of the dumbest ideas. Your character spends their entire life in the company of elves that use swords, yet because you're a half-elf, you're magically incapable of picking up a sword yourself despite there being magic in the game that lets you do all kinds of other impossible things. really, it's idiotic to have these types of restrictions.
I can understand having certain "tendencies", such as swordsmanship not being taught in your race's city and you having to go out in the world make friends with a race that teaches it. That type of thing makes sense to me. But some artificial thing that prevents you from learning something, especially when magic exists to overcome any physical inadequacies, it simply makes no sense and I'm quite happy it doesn't exist.
A hint of reality within the fantasy is what ensures that immersion is possible. You need laws of existence in order to feel as though something is plausible...otherwise your brain will ultimately grow frustrated with the absurdity of it. Think of The Matrix, where Agent Smith speaks of an existence without limitations where everyone obtained everything they wanted.
Humanity rejected it.
A fantasy based game without restrictions, without practicality that sets logical guidelines for the fantasy governed existence which we are all played ultimately feels chaotic and absurd. One could argue that in a fantasy world, there's nothing that restricts players from becoming omnipotent godlike beings that can shapeshift into whatever they so wish and learn every class by the end of the game either...........................but we'd hate that.
I've a heart of pure black jade, beating forth the ebon ink of shattered dreams. So spread those thighs my darlings, and let me hear those lustful screams... For twisting coils and silken strands, my venom coursing through your veins. It's my bliss you seek, to ease those troubled pains...
...free to do anything with no consequences at all....
Actually, i believe that this is the whole point - that there are consequences for WHAT YOU DO, not for a random uneducated choice you made before even starting to play (i.e. race).
If you choose to piss off a certain faction, or a certain race or whatever, there will be consequences for DOING it.
Strict racial restrictions in a world of immortal adventurers and magic are one of the dumbest ideas. Your character spends their entire life in the company of elves that use swords, yet because you're a half-elf, you're magically incapable of picking up a sword yourself despite there being magic in the game that lets you do all kinds of other impossible things. really, it's idiotic to have these types of restrictions.
I can understand having certain "tendencies", such as swordsmanship not being taught in your race's city and you having to go out in the world make friends with a race that teaches it. That type of thing makes sense to me. But some artificial thing that prevents you from learning something, especially when magic exists to overcome any physical inadequacies, it simply makes no sense and I'm quite happy it doesn't exist.
A hint of reality within the fantasy is what ensures that immersion is possible. You need laws of existence in order to feel as though something is plausible...otherwise your brain will ultimately grow frustrated with the absurdity of it. Think of The Matrix, where Agent Smith speaks of an existence without limitations where everyone obtained everything they wanted.
Humanity rejected it.
A fantasy based game without restrictions, without practicality that sets logical guidelines for the fantasy governed existence which we are all played ultimately feels chaotic and absurd. One could argue that in a fantasy world, there's nothing that restricts players from becoming omnipotent godlike beings that can shapeshift into whatever they so wish and learn every class by the end of the game either...........................but we'd hate that.
No one is asking for their character to be "Godlike" or have access to every single power, as well all know that is impossible (there's a limited number of skills, which you must pick and choose from and your 4 weapon skills is determined by the weapon/class).
It seems rather more "absurd/chaotic" to me to have MY character limited because of some pen and paper stereotypes that say elves are "magical" while orcs are "big and dumb brutes."
That takes away the choice of the player and limits the actual "RP" in RPG.
Some of the most beloved fantasy characters are those that break traditions, like the very well known Drizzt.
The developers of EQnext want to give players freedom and part of that is not limiting races simply based on what race they play as.
You are free to play a sterotypical elf who's a great mage, or a big orc warrior, but at the same time I can play an Orc who was abandoned in the woods as a child and found by wandering mages who take him into their fold and he grew up amongst them to become a wise and well versed mage himself.
...free to do anything with no consequences at all....
Actually, i believe that this is the whole point - that there are consequences for WHAT YOU DO, not for a random uneducated choice you made before even starting to play (i.e. race).
If you choose to piss off a certain faction, or a certain race or whatever, there will be consequences for DOING it.
Strict racial restrictions in a world of immortal adventurers and magic are one of the dumbest ideas. Your character spends their entire life in the company of elves that use swords, yet because you're a half-elf, you're magically incapable of picking up a sword yourself despite there being magic in the game that lets you do all kinds of other impossible things. really, it's idiotic to have these types of restrictions.
I can understand having certain "tendencies", such as swordsmanship not being taught in your race's city and you having to go out in the world make friends with a race that teaches it. That type of thing makes sense to me. But some artificial thing that prevents you from learning something, especially when magic exists to overcome any physical inadequacies, it simply makes no sense and I'm quite happy it doesn't exist.
A hint of reality within the fantasy is what ensures that immersion is possible. You need laws of existence in order to feel as though something is plausible...otherwise your brain will ultimately grow frustrated with the absurdity of it. Think of The Matrix, where Agent Smith speaks of an existence without limitations where everyone obtained everything they wanted.
Humanity rejected it.
A fantasy based game without restrictions, without practicality that sets logical guidelines for the fantasy governed existence which we are all played ultimately feels chaotic and absurd. One could argue that in a fantasy world, there's nothing that restricts players from becoming omnipotent godlike beings that can shapeshift into whatever they so wish and learn every class by the end of the game either...........................but we'd hate that.
No one is asking for their character to be "Godlike" or have access to every single power, as well all know that is impossible (there's a limited number of skills, which you must pick and choose from and your 4 weapon skills is determined by the weapon/class).
It seems rather more "absurd/chaotic" to me to have MY character limited because of some pen and paper stereotypes that say elves are "magical" while orcs are "big and dumb brutes."
That takes away the choice of the player and limits the actual "RP" in RPG.
Some of the most beloved fantasy characters are those that break traditions, like the very well known Drizzt.
The developers of EQnext want to give players freedom and part of that is not limiting races simply based on what race they play as.
You are free to play a sterotypical elf who's a great mage, or a big orc warrior, but at the same time I can play an Orc who was abandoned in the woods as a child and found by wandering mages who take him into their fold and he grew up amongst them to become a wise and well versed mage himself.
That's all fine and well, but I believe that EQN is doing such incorrectly.
Racial traits are a means to ensure that immersion is possible through a sense that you're playing something truly unique to the others. Initially, your surroundings, the developed racial storylines and non-playable characters set amongst their respective cities, is enough to give you a sense of awe towards a particular race...but this wears off mid-game. Eventually, without racial traits, you'll come to feel as though you're not actually part of that race because in truth...you're nothing more than a fancy skin of the race itself without any actual flavor.
So, how would I go about this? I would give each race an ethnicity that starts on a different continent, and have each ethnicity adept within a different stat while universally being adept at their racial state. For example, maybe you have Orcs that have a racial advantage towards strength...but you have three ethnic backgrounds: one that adds onto that racial strength, one that adds to dex, and one intelligence. All three still have a racial advantage of strength over OTHER races, but there's still ethnic backgrounds that add to other areas instead of focusing strictly upon the strength.
To make this a little easier to understand (I tend to talk in circles.)
Orcs:
Racial Focus: +5 Str.
Strong Orcs: +3 Str. (Atop the +5 Str.)
Nimble Orcs: +3 Dex. (Atop the +5 Str.)
Intelligent Orcs: +3 Int. (Atop the +5 Str.)
Now give each of these three ethnic backgrounds their OWN capitol city and outposts upon their respective continent and broaden their culture to reflect the racial states. All Orcs are still strength oriented...but you have variety amongst the orcs and a culture that backs up the reasoning. Look at how they did Humans in the Elder Scrolls and you see, pretty much, what I would like to see done.
Use a statistical focus and racial abilities to unify them, some statistical variation to differentiate them. Three ethnic backgrounds amongst a single race that feel like that race, unique to all others, and yet different to even one another.
I've a heart of pure black jade, beating forth the ebon ink of shattered dreams. So spread those thighs my darlings, and let me hear those lustful screams... For twisting coils and silken strands, my venom coursing through your veins. It's my bliss you seek, to ease those troubled pains...
Just another reason I think I am done with MMO's....no journey to end game, no reason to explore, no reason to do anything while leveling besides leveling, and just another game where a gnome can take a hit like an ogre....
All WoW had was racial skills and that was enough to make me enjoy being a Tauren instead of an Orc, made me feel different.
After Kunark was released I made every character of mine an Iksar, so what if I had to be a certain class....that was my choice because I liked being an Iksar.
The death of MMO's will be trying to make everyone happy....id rather play an MMO with consequences with 10,000 players than be handed everything with no challenge and nothing to do with 1 million players
What a turn off, a small race like the gnome should be physically limited verse that off an ogre. Or a troll shouldn't be able to be a master magician like the such of an erudite. I am disappointed if this is really true.
Just another reason I think I am done with MMO's....no journey to end game, no reason to explore, no reason to do anything while leveling besides leveling, and just another game where a gnome can take a hit like an ogre....
All WoW had was racial skills and that was enough to make me enjoy being a Tauren instead of an Orc, made me feel different.
After Kunark was released I made every character of mine an Iksar, so what if I had to be a certain class....that was my choice because I liked being an Iksar.
The death of MMO's will be trying to make everyone happy....id rather play an MMO with consequences with 10,000 players than be handed everything with no challenge and nothing to do with 1 million players
Where did you get the impression that there would even be gnomes let alone that they would be able to take a hit like an ogre?
What does the ability to learn any class mean no journey, no reason to explore etc... They have already said that this game is all about the journey and finding and earning the different classes means you will need to explore. Finally, they have said that this game isn't going to be about the rush to max level and the end game, even so far as to say there will be no end game.
The latest poll response indicates that they are working hard on making the races have meaning.
What a turn off, a small race like the gnome should be physically limited verse that off an ogre. Or a troll shouldn't be able to be a master magician like the such of an erudite. I am disappointed if this is really true.
What's really funny is that players will always find something to complain about, no matter how good a game may be (sometimes i wonder ... with that attitude towards new games, is there ever gonna be a hope for mmorpgs?).
Anyway, some aspects of this game are different from what we have seen so far. It's too early to tell if this is going to succeed or not. The good thing about F2P model is that nothing prevents players from trying the game and decide if they want to continue playing it or not.
Listen, people, if you don't want certain races to be certain classes, then don't play that race/class combination! Don't want dwarven mages? Don't play as one! Think ogres shouldn't be thiefs? Don't play as one! It's as simple and easy as making a female dwarf without a beard if you think they shouldn't have any! Not everyone agrees with you; some people want spellcasting dwarves and sneaky backstabbing ogres, so don't go off on a rant saying how/why they are wrong, because they are no more right or wrong than you seeing as how all of this comes down to subjective personal opinion.
Besides, we all know that large races make excellent rogues. Just look at tauren rogues in WoW...oh wait you can't, not because they don't exist, but because they are so good at what they do you never see them no matter how hard you look.
i liked TSW. Even after seeing all the areas i had still to do stuff to unlock. no need for an Alt
Same for FF14. If it wouldnt be that grindy i would love the multiclassing instead of making alts.
i'm supporting the "one character, lots to do" direction instead of the "lots of alts the same to do" direction of the past
i do like alts
but i'd rather stick w one character - w access to many skills
This is kinda funny because while on one hand they are telling use that you won't need alts. But on the other hand the story is supposed to be changing enough that you might want to build an alt to see how the game "starts" now.
Comments
I'm not sure if they explicitly said that there will be no racial abilities, but it is kind of implied. Their design philosophy is that there shouldn't be any choices to make that couldn't be changed. So if there is a new flavour of the month build you would always be able to use it no matter what decisions you made in the past, including the choice of your race. This wouldn't be possible if a build contained a racial ability.
They already made it possible to switch around your class as much as you want. I guess doing the same thing with the race would be to silly even for SOEs standards.
There is a difference between freedom and refusing to make any decisions. It seems SOE doesn't have much confidence in its players. It seems they assume their players are very fickle individuals who are afraid of making decisions.
If you decide to do A you always also decide to not do B; this is how it works. If you ask me making decision is a crucial aspect of rpgs. If every decision can be easily reversed, it makes the whole thing kind of arbitrary.
SOE seems to have this strange approach to game design where they adapt some debateable design ideas early on and then they just go with it no matter what other aspect of the game they have to butcher later on to make it happen.
It's a great system for Planetside 2, but not for a MMORPG. As many have stated throughout the course of this discussion, you need racial characteristics for the sake of immersion, and the ability to just swap out your class is downright absurd. It takes away from the entire concept of a role playing game by making you some sort of disembodied phantasm that can shift at will...no true being, just a fabricant governed by whim alone.
Initially, many will be awestruck by the potentially rich background of their race, the surroundings within the game, and the non-playable characters of their respective race. This, however, will fade come mid to late game when this wears off...because you're not going to FEEL like the race you're playing due to the fact that there's nothing that defines them but their appearance. If you play an Elf, eventually you're going to feel quite jaded when an Elf feels like a Human and any other race you play...
Same holds true for the classes. Given the ability to swap into another class will present a watered down jack of all trades kind of feel. While it may seem silly, we need these restrictions in order to feel tied to our characters.
Now, when it comes to giving races the ability to play every class, I completely agree. I'm one who believes that if you want to use a class, you should have that capability despite your race. I also believe that racial limitations, when it comes to statistics, shouldn't be detrimental in making this choice. If you play a small race that wouldn't generally be perceived as strong...you shouldn't be denied the ability to play an effective warrior if you choose. Still...your size should come into play in a realistic sense.
Perhaps you don't have as much strength as a larger race would, but your dexterity provides a significant boost in dodge capabilities that make up for this slight limitation. This would leave a smaller race more than capable of playing an effective warrior if done right.
That's how these racial limitations should play out. If you play a huge race that benefits from strength rather than intelligence, well...let that strength oriented race play a more combat oriented mage type character to compensate...or be a more tanky mage.
Who knows.
It'll obviously take a great deal of balance...but that's what these people are being paid for, a well designed product.
I've a heart of pure black jade, beating forth the ebon ink of shattered dreams. So spread those thighs my darlings, and let me hear those lustful screams... For twisting coils and silken strands, my venom coursing through your veins. It's my bliss you seek, to ease those troubled pains...
That is what they promised to us, I'm still waiting for a faction/alignment system that will blow me away. It depends on what StoryBricks can actually do and if SOE can put it to good use. If there will be something that makes up for the class/race system I would be pleased. But having no racial abilities would still be kind of a wasted opputunity.
I dont' really get the whole "racism" argument here...
First off I don't think anyone is going to argue... there are more black people on a football team then asian.. why?
genetics..
Nothing wrong with that, I am not a racist. I beleive all men(& woman) are created equal.. but that doesn't mean that ANYONE can become a star athelete..
Anyways, as far as a MMO goes. I don't like classes being race locked. But I do like if they have different bonuses..
example would be FFXI, you could play a taru and get more magika, but if you played a galka (one of the big dudes) you were more suited to being a mele fighter.. made sense... and a galka COULD be a mage.. he just didn't have as big of a magika pool..
anyways my $0.02
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Yeah you are jumping to a pretty huge conclusion here.
I fear you are correct though. One of the biggest problems with current MMORPG is being afraid of making players more diverse. The race you pick should have large implications to your character, not just be cosmetic.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Wow I'm sorry but you're completely wrong! It has more to do with conditioning and environment than genetics....lord.
Case in point: Go to Hawaii and put together an all asian football team then head to Ethiopia and do the same. Then you tell me why are the black guys all skinny and the asian guys all huge? Absolutely NOTHING to do with genetics! Try again. By the way there are more asian star athletes in this world than black star athletes or did you mean just in Amerka? Ohh I see your line of thinking now...so stereotypical.
Anywho, racial traits, bonuses, features are not really needed if you think of all the races as cultures not depended on each others. Not all orcs are strong, not all dwarves are dumb, not all elves are weak. In each of those cultures I'm sure there are some smart orcs. They may not be called mages but shamans instead. Maybe fast dwarves are called rogues and not thieves like they are in human cultures. But if they want to make things appear multicultural, then racial differences would make some sense.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Actually,
You're both partially right; it's genetics, conditioning, and environment. The differing ethnic backgrounds do indeed have genetically differing characteristics that provide them benefits within specific situations. For example, Tibetans have larger lungs to deal with the high altitudes they reside in and there are many other physical characteristics that ethnicities have based upon where they reside, these were adaptations that helped them excel within their surrounding habitat and are genetically passed on to their children.
These are, however, starting blocks that conditioning and environment shape throughout the course of life. An easier example would be through the use of canine species. A pittbull is bred to be genetically superior for combat purposes, but if you practically starve a pittbull and leave it in terrible conditions...it's going to be far weaker than even a collie that has lived a good life.
There's an Asian boy on youtube that has, for whatever the reason, unique eyes that grant him the ability to see within nearly pitch black conditions much like a feline. This is a genetic fluke that could, potentially, be passed on to his children. Were the boy within a very small community and several individuals all developed this mutation, then bred amongst one another, you'd eventually develop an ethnicity with this unique feature.
This isn't racism, this is evolution, genetics.
Some genetics are superior to others, it's just how nature works. Still, as you said, the surrounding conditions and environment also play a huge factor in the developing of full potential for these genetics.
You did bring up an interesting idea though...
Different ethnic backgrounds of these fantasy races could indeed possess different genetic boons over one another. You could have more intelligently magic adept Orcs in one providence and more brutish and warrior-like Orcs in another. The Elder Scrolls does this fairly well amongst the various human types...but not in the other races. Each Human variant in the Elder Scrolls has different pros and cons, but why don't more games do this with ALL their races...surely every race is going to have differing genetics in the way humans do.
I've a heart of pure black jade, beating forth the ebon ink of shattered dreams. So spread those thighs my darlings, and let me hear those lustful screams... For twisting coils and silken strands, my venom coursing through your veins. It's my bliss you seek, to ease those troubled pains...
Looks like another potentially great game goes down the crapper...one of the most fun aspects of EQ1 was the option to have alts of different races that had specific classes you needed for raids etc....another game falls victim of the brain broken no consequences to your actions mind set of the messed up current world....what a shame...game had potential if it actually treated people like adults instead of children...free to do anything with no consequences at all....no wonder the damn place is fallin apart
Actually, i believe that this is the whole point - that there are consequences for WHAT YOU DO, not for a random uneducated choice you made before even starting to play (i.e. race).
If you choose to piss off a certain faction, or a certain race or whatever, there will be consequences for DOING it.
Strict racial restrictions in a world of immortal adventurers and magic are one of the dumbest ideas. Your character spends their entire life in the company of elves that use swords, yet because you're a half-elf, you're magically incapable of picking up a sword yourself despite there being magic in the game that lets you do all kinds of other impossible things. really, it's idiotic to have these types of restrictions.
I can understand having certain "tendencies", such as swordsmanship not being taught in your race's city and you having to go out in the world make friends with a race that teaches it. That type of thing makes sense to me. But some artificial thing that prevents you from learning something, especially when magic exists to overcome any physical inadequacies, it simply makes no sense and I'm quite happy it doesn't exist.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
A hint of reality within the fantasy is what ensures that immersion is possible. You need laws of existence in order to feel as though something is plausible...otherwise your brain will ultimately grow frustrated with the absurdity of it. Think of The Matrix, where Agent Smith speaks of an existence without limitations where everyone obtained everything they wanted.
Humanity rejected it.
A fantasy based game without restrictions, without practicality that sets logical guidelines for the fantasy governed existence which we are all played ultimately feels chaotic and absurd. One could argue that in a fantasy world, there's nothing that restricts players from becoming omnipotent godlike beings that can shapeshift into whatever they so wish and learn every class by the end of the game either...........................but we'd hate that.
I've a heart of pure black jade, beating forth the ebon ink of shattered dreams. So spread those thighs my darlings, and let me hear those lustful screams... For twisting coils and silken strands, my venom coursing through your veins. It's my bliss you seek, to ease those troubled pains...
No one is asking for their character to be "Godlike" or have access to every single power, as well all know that is impossible (there's a limited number of skills, which you must pick and choose from and your 4 weapon skills is determined by the weapon/class).
It seems rather more "absurd/chaotic" to me to have MY character limited because of some pen and paper stereotypes that say elves are "magical" while orcs are "big and dumb brutes."
That takes away the choice of the player and limits the actual "RP" in RPG.
Some of the most beloved fantasy characters are those that break traditions, like the very well known Drizzt.
The developers of EQnext want to give players freedom and part of that is not limiting races simply based on what race they play as.
You are free to play a sterotypical elf who's a great mage, or a big orc warrior, but at the same time I can play an Orc who was abandoned in the woods as a child and found by wandering mages who take him into their fold and he grew up amongst them to become a wise and well versed mage himself.
That's all fine and well, but I believe that EQN is doing such incorrectly.
Racial traits are a means to ensure that immersion is possible through a sense that you're playing something truly unique to the others. Initially, your surroundings, the developed racial storylines and non-playable characters set amongst their respective cities, is enough to give you a sense of awe towards a particular race...but this wears off mid-game. Eventually, without racial traits, you'll come to feel as though you're not actually part of that race because in truth...you're nothing more than a fancy skin of the race itself without any actual flavor.
So, how would I go about this? I would give each race an ethnicity that starts on a different continent, and have each ethnicity adept within a different stat while universally being adept at their racial state. For example, maybe you have Orcs that have a racial advantage towards strength...but you have three ethnic backgrounds: one that adds onto that racial strength, one that adds to dex, and one intelligence. All three still have a racial advantage of strength over OTHER races, but there's still ethnic backgrounds that add to other areas instead of focusing strictly upon the strength.
To make this a little easier to understand (I tend to talk in circles.)
Orcs:
Racial Focus: +5 Str.
Strong Orcs: +3 Str. (Atop the +5 Str.)
Nimble Orcs: +3 Dex. (Atop the +5 Str.)
Intelligent Orcs: +3 Int. (Atop the +5 Str.)
Now give each of these three ethnic backgrounds their OWN capitol city and outposts upon their respective continent and broaden their culture to reflect the racial states. All Orcs are still strength oriented...but you have variety amongst the orcs and a culture that backs up the reasoning. Look at how they did Humans in the Elder Scrolls and you see, pretty much, what I would like to see done.
Use a statistical focus and racial abilities to unify them, some statistical variation to differentiate them. Three ethnic backgrounds amongst a single race that feel like that race, unique to all others, and yet different to even one another.
I've a heart of pure black jade, beating forth the ebon ink of shattered dreams. So spread those thighs my darlings, and let me hear those lustful screams... For twisting coils and silken strands, my venom coursing through your veins. It's my bliss you seek, to ease those troubled pains...
Just another reason I think I am done with MMO's....no journey to end game, no reason to explore, no reason to do anything while leveling besides leveling, and just another game where a gnome can take a hit like an ogre....
All WoW had was racial skills and that was enough to make me enjoy being a Tauren instead of an Orc, made me feel different.
After Kunark was released I made every character of mine an Iksar, so what if I had to be a certain class....that was my choice because I liked being an Iksar.
The death of MMO's will be trying to make everyone happy....id rather play an MMO with consequences with 10,000 players than be handed everything with no challenge and nothing to do with 1 million players
What a turn off, a small race like the gnome should be physically limited verse that off an ogre. Or a troll shouldn't be able to be a master magician like the such of an erudite. I am disappointed if this is really true.
EQ2 already lets any race be any class (w betrayal quest) - and EQ2 is 9 years old
I don't see what the big deal is
EQ2 fan sites
Where did you get the impression that there would even be gnomes let alone that they would be able to take a hit like an ogre?
What does the ability to learn any class mean no journey, no reason to explore etc... They have already said that this game is all about the journey and finding and earning the different classes means you will need to explore. Finally, they have said that this game isn't going to be about the rush to max level and the end game, even so far as to say there will be no end game.
The latest poll response indicates that they are working hard on making the races have meaning.
So far we don't know about the gnomes or erudite.
after my last few games i come to the conclusions
Alts are not Fun....
atleast for me.
Back in WoW it was fun to level your first time to max level. But then come the next and it was just repeating the same story.
In GW2 it was fun to play your first class to max, but the second and third,,and fourth, it gots more and more boring.
But i liked TSW. Even after seeing all the areas i had still to do stuff to unlock. no need for an Alt
Same for FF14. If it wouldnt be that grindy i would love the multiclassing instead of making alts.
so i'm supporting the "one character, lots to do" direction instead of the "lots of alts the same to do" direction of the past
And with that making races impacting gameplay is a no go. Flavour i would like
i do like alts
but i'd rather stick w one character - w access to many skills
EQ2 fan sites
What's really funny is that players will always find something to complain about, no matter how good a game may be (sometimes i wonder ... with that attitude towards new games, is there ever gonna be a hope for mmorpgs?).
Anyway, some aspects of this game are different from what we have seen so far. It's too early to tell if this is going to succeed or not. The good thing about F2P model is that nothing prevents players from trying the game and decide if they want to continue playing it or not.
Listen, people, if you don't want certain races to be certain classes, then don't play that race/class combination! Don't want dwarven mages? Don't play as one! Think ogres shouldn't be thiefs? Don't play as one! It's as simple and easy as making a female dwarf without a beard if you think they shouldn't have any! Not everyone agrees with you; some people want spellcasting dwarves and sneaky backstabbing ogres, so don't go off on a rant saying how/why they are wrong, because they are no more right or wrong than you seeing as how all of this comes down to subjective personal opinion.
Besides, we all know that large races make excellent rogues. Just look at tauren rogues in WoW...oh wait you can't, not because they don't exist, but because they are so good at what they do you never see them no matter how hard you look.
Since when is Tuesday a direction?
This is kinda funny because while on one hand they are telling use that you won't need alts. But on the other hand the story is supposed to be changing enough that you might want to build an alt to see how the game "starts" now.