I like combat to be reactive and not make me push a bunch of extra buttons in the same order to kill stuff. AoC as an example was awful from adding extra buttons to push that really didn't do anything at all for the experience.
Crafting is so different than combat that you can't really compare the two though so the question doesn't really matter. I get what you are trying to ask but I want completely different things out of the crafting experience as I do from combat, that is why they are separate parts of the game. They are supposed to be targeted at different types of players.
UO had a pretty good crafting system, so did SWG, but it was because of how you could mix the items more than how you physically did the mixing.
In most games crafting is a side game, I think because it detracts from the gear tread mill. I think instead of handing out some weird made up currency the reward should be crafting mats, where if you farm enough dungeons/ raids you can craft the best gear in the game. The whole idea of being a hero as a crafter is lost if you can not craft the best gear. I also believe that a system similar to this would promote community, lets face not everyone enjoys crafting, that would bring the two sides together to tackle common goals.
I get what you are saying, however I like both sides, I perfer my dungeons/raid to drop both gear and crafting mats, however you need to do research (in-game) to find out how to unlock it's potential to be able to use it. I don't really want it all to be in the craft side by force, I rather have both side... some people don't like the monster-hunter-isque style of crafting, so best aid in both ways.
Originally posted by zasten I don't mind how complicated it is so long as it is worth doing. If you can't make money from it or even just get better gear from it then it is not worth doing. If all you get is better gear then don't make the mats that rare or hard to find that you will rarely craft anything!!!
It does not have to be about gear or money, it could be something you like making, such as furniture so that you can help decorate your home, someone else home or your guild home, same thing with architecture and literature.
Originally posted by DamonVile
I'm not sure you can really even call what most mmos have is "crafting" any more. You gather a bunch of mats along the yellow brick road, and at some point you click a button and "make" something. Then you sell it to an npc vendor for less than the cost of making it.
You do this till you get to skill cap so you can make one or two items that are on par with basic entry lvl raid gear....and that's the last time crafting is ever viable.
Those games don't got an interesting crafting system, world of warcraft may look like that during the beginning levels, but you make some good gold if you max level it... people are always on the hunt for getting gems and enchants for people who just got new pieces of gear off the LFR/Flex/Normal/Heroic, and you can make some pretty good money. It all depends on the game itself, as some like you just said don't really seem to be so strong and just added it like it's some short of pre-requirements of making an mmorpg game.
Originally posted by Foomerang
Originally posted by bcbully I think more important than how things are crafted is the type of economy you are crafting in. If everything from gear to weapons, to fluff is crafted by players, and the materials needed to craft draw from a broad rage of resources, you will have a great crafting system.
Dead are the days of Dev driven economies where you craft only level your crafting.
edit - yeah like the guy above me said.
Great crafting is not just about what you craft and where the resources come from. The act of crafting has to be interesting. I crafted in Fallen Earth and Darkfall 1.0 and you could make everything in the game. But it was boring as hell. Drag, drop, click create, come back in a day.
People think crafting systems are great simply based on if they can make the best of everything. If the act of crafting is dull, then you really don't have a great crafting system. You have a great economy. Which are two very different things.
Sometimes I think it's best to throw in a researching system to where you need to understand what you are crafting before you craft the item itself, short of a like a mystery puzzle game where you try to find out which fit where and how it suppose to look like, stuff like that from back in the day when you was playing some old adventure game somewhat similar or less like Myst.
Originally posted by Ender4 I like combat to be reactive and not make me push a bunch of extra buttons in the same order to kill stuff. AoC as an example was awful from adding extra buttons to push that really didn't do anything at all for the experience. Crafting is so different than combat that you can't really compare the two though so the question doesn't really matter. I get what you are trying to ask but I want completely different things out of the crafting experience as I do from combat, that is why they are separate parts of the game. They are supposed to be targeted at different types of players.UO had a pretty good crafting system, so did SWG, but it was because of how you could mix the items more than how you physically did the mixing.
How its crafted is just as important imho. Look at it this way: Would you say a game has great combat simply because you can kill the hardest mobs in the game? No. A game has great combat because of how well done the process is. Its the same with crafting.
Saying that crafting is great because you can make the best loot is like saying combat is great because you can get the best loot. Thats why its annoying to me when people dismiss a crafting system (like FFXIV) simply because they cant make best in slot. There is so much more to a great crafting system. You can hit them over the head with all the features and they still dont get it. Yet those same people go on diatribes about the subtle nuances of global cooldowns and active dodging.
Whether its crafting or combat, the process must be engaging or its a fail.
Just give me some perspective can you give an example of a game with an interesting crafting system ?
Originally posted by DamonVile Originally posted by FoomerangHow its crafted is just as important imho. Look at it this way: Would you say a game has great combat simply because you can kill the hardest mobs in the game? No. A game has great combat because of how well done the process is. Its the same with crafting. Saying that crafting is great because you can make the best loot is like saying combat is great because you can get the best loot. Thats why its annoying to me when people dismiss a crafting system (like FFXIV) simply because they cant make best in slot. There is so much more to a great crafting system. You can hit them over the head with all the features and they still dont get it. Yet those same people go on diatribes about the subtle nuances of global cooldowns and active dodging. Whether its crafting or combat, the process must be engaging or its a fail.
Just give me some perspective can you give an example of a game with an interesting crafting system ? FFXIV for starters. SWG was the best.
In FFXIV, I have more crafting abilites that I use during the crafting process than I use during combat on my Paladin heh. You strategize and predict what abilities you should use based on changing conditions in order to get the best chance for a high quality item. You have stats that affect your abilities and a resource pool to manage. Stats can be boosted by food and gear.
I think that you need a bit of a combination of both. You need something that is still accessible to people, something that is simple in the beginning. However, the idea that we are only ever able to obtain "recipes" from vendors is ridiculous!!! I am a Grand Master Blacksmith........ but would you mind selling me that pattern for a helmet? I've never seen one before.
I'd love to see a crafting system that allows people to put together materials in an attempt to be innovative and create something new, something that's never been seen before. I think that GW2 tried to improve on the crafting system, but I'm not sure that it was ever as good as the idea was on paper.
Fact: The best items in the game should be able to be crafted.
Also I'd like to see a certain amount of variability. We see this in WoW a little bit with crafting procs, but I'm talking more randomness, plus the possibility of just creating crazy shit! Like you proc something that's just heads and tails above anything else that's in the game right now. Then, you can go ahead and name that bitch too! For years to come I want the world to talk about Blagdar's Fierce Tuna Spear. Now maybe I won't be able to name all items, but those special ones, the ones that a REAL Blacksmith wouldn't sell because it was just too good, those are the ones I'd want to be able to name. I want that motivation to craft, I want to work with the knowledge that if I continually craft, I'm going to have the chance to proc something more than a Blue that I could get in 15 minutes running through a Dungeon, you know?
That leads me to variability. So, in the above case, the developers don't have a pre-canned name of Blagdar's Fierce Tuna Spear sitting in a database row anywhere. There are guidelines, or limitations will have you, that the spear can be. Boundaries. However, the fact is, that I might put in my Mithril spear head and Titanium shaft and it might spit out the Fierce Tuna Spear or it might just spit out a crappy old Militia Spear and I can smelt it down and start over again. All this means is that there are no reasons for us to stop crafting when we hit the end game and it also means that we're not going to have 100,000 people running around with the exact same set of gear with the exact same stats.
Originally posted by Venger Crafting and the game economy have to be core features or like others have said it is a wast of programming. I'd prefer to see more complex system where crafting is a play style instead of a mini-game.
I think the complexity should be in making the recipes much more complicated than they are now. Give crafters a lot of formulas to memorize that are actually hard to remember at first. Maybe at first you have to open Google to remember even the formula for simple leather armor. But eventually you get good at it and memorize the different formulas. That way you have the feeling of getting better at and mastering an actual skill that takes player effort, which is what simple crafting systems totally lack.
We need another game with a SWG type crafting system. Random weekly resources with various stats like malleability, overall quality, toughness, heat resistance, etc. This made sure that armor and weapons were very very different from week to week. The best crafters in the game took true pride in making their armor and weapons. They found the best materials each week and stockpiled good stat resources, it was sort of like playing the stock market. It was like a game in its own right. That and +armorsmithing +weaponsmithing mods were hard to come by, when someone tried be a crafter they were sought out for their excellent work. You didnt have random Joe#1123123 who picked up weaponsmithing make the same quality gear as the guy who's been working at it for months and collecting the right materials/mods. I've been playing mmos for 15 years and nothing since SWG has come close to being true crafting.
Originally posted by FoomerangHow its crafted is just as important imho. Look at it this way: Would you say a game has great combat simply because you can kill the hardest mobs in the game? No. A game has great combat because of how well done the process is. Its the same with crafting. Saying that crafting is great because you can make the best loot is like saying combat is great because you can get the best loot. Thats why its annoying to me when people dismiss a crafting system (like FFXIV) simply because they cant make best in slot. There is so much more to a great crafting system. You can hit them over the head with all the features and they still dont get it. Yet those same people go on diatribes about the subtle nuances of global cooldowns and active dodging. Whether its crafting or combat, the process must be engaging or its a fail.
Just give me some perspective can you give an example of a game with an interesting crafting system ?
FFXIV for starters. SWG was the best.
In FFXIV, I have more crafting abilites that I use during the crafting process than I use during combat on my Paladin heh. You strategize and predict what abilities you should use based on changing conditions in order to get the best chance for a high quality item. You have stats that affect your abilities and a resource pool to manage. Stats can be boosted by food and gear.
I have to agree, FFXIV crafting is the best crafting system I have used since EQ2 ( I never played SWG so can't comment ) and I have crafted in a LOT of games.
has crafting become unimportant due to the easy/fast rate of lvling to max in most newer games? why bother taking the time to craft something when you can outlevel it in the same day? Vanguard, which is where i've done the most crafting had slower leveling (when the game was relatively new) and crafted items lasted for a little while longer and were a good investment. Not to mention all the other things you could craft, houses/ships/furniture etc...
has crafting become unimportant due to the easy/fast rate of lvling to max in most newer games? why bother taking the time to craft something when you can outlevel it in the same day? Vanguard, which is where i've done the most crafting had slower leveling (when the game was relatively new) and crafted items lasted for a little while longer and were a good investment. Not to mention all the other things you could craft, houses/ships/furniture etc...
I agree with you in some respect because developers are unwilling these days to make games with long levelling times, mainly because it leads to player segregation. Where crafters thrive however is at max level, where the players who can't be bothered to level a crafting skill are dependent on our trade.
I'm not sure you can really even call what most mmos have is "crafting" any more. You gather a bunch of mats along the yellow brick road, and at some point you click a button and "make" something. Then you sell it to an npc vendor for less than the cost of making it.
You do this till you get to skill cap so you can make one or two items that are on par with basic entry lvl raid gear....and that's the last time crafting is ever viable.
Do people really have such a boring playstyle?
OP: Let there be both improved/epic crafting aswell games to catter to simple crafting. Seems more then enough room to have games to offer either one.
I can even enjoy crafting in themepark games, but that's because I don't depend on the handholding or what some might call yellow brick road. I would get bored very quickly with such a shallow playstyle and thankfully in MMO's even the themepark you don't have to let the game hold your hand. But perhaps you need to be a experiance gamer to do so...don't know really..
My most favorite crafting still today would be SWG's crafting, nothing has come close, second would be Fallen Earth, Vangaurd would take a 3rd place for me. So yeah I love my crafting deep, but I can entertain myself and find my own challenge even in themepark games.
Originally posted by Dominionlord has crafting become unimportant due to the easy/fast rate of lvling to max in most newer games? why bother taking the time to craft something when you can outlevel it in the same day? Vanguard, which is where i've done the most crafting had slower leveling (when the game was relatively new) and crafted items lasted for a little while longer and were a good investment. Not to mention all the other things you could craft, houses/ships/furniture etc...
Since I'm currently playing GW2 I'll use it as an example. In GW2 my current Engineer is a huntsman and a leatherworker. He makes all of his own gear which is a decent system but when I need to make extra it sells for peanuts because everyone levels fast enough and gets handed gear fast enough they don't need the items. Casually gathering while I play gives me enough mats to level both crafts with minimal investment by me on the trading post. This is a system done completely wrong. Every single character can easily max a craft and the items they make have almost no value until max level.
Whether we go with some sort of mini game for crafting or not it is clear that this style of crafting game is just broken for the crafters. It is tacked on just to say we have crafting and try to keep people happy.
I think that you need a bit of a combination of both. You need something that is still accessible to people, something that is simple in the beginning. However, the idea that we are only ever able to obtain "recipes" from vendors is ridiculous!!! I am a Grand Master Blacksmith........ but would you mind selling me that pattern for a helmet? I've never seen one before.
I'd love to see a crafting system that allows people to put together materials in an attempt to be innovative and create something new, something that's never been seen before. I think that GW2 tried to improve on the crafting system, but I'm not sure that it was ever as good as the idea was on paper.
Fact: The best items in the game should be able to be crafted.
Also I'd like to see a certain amount of variability. We see this in WoW a little bit with crafting procs, but I'm talking more randomness, plus the possibility of just creating crazy shit! Like you proc something that's just heads and tails above anything else that's in the game right now. Then, you can go ahead and name that bitch too! For years to come I want the world to talk about Blagdar's Fierce Tuna Spear. Now maybe I won't be able to name all items, but those special ones, the ones that a REAL Blacksmith wouldn't sell because it was just too good, those are the ones I'd want to be able to name. I want that motivation to craft, I want to work with the knowledge that if I continually craft, I'm going to have the chance to proc something more than a Blue that I could get in 15 minutes running through a Dungeon, you know?
That leads me to variability. So, in the above case, the developers don't have a pre-canned name of Blagdar's Fierce Tuna Spear sitting in a database row anywhere. There are guidelines, or limitations will have you, that the spear can be. Boundaries. However, the fact is, that I might put in my Mithril spear head and Titanium shaft and it might spit out the Fierce Tuna Spear or it might just spit out a crappy old Militia Spear and I can smelt it down and start over again. All this means is that there are no reasons for us to stop crafting when we hit the end game and it also means that we're not going to have 100,000 people running around with the exact same set of gear with the exact same stats.
I feel ya man, I would love to see that happen in most mmo's, expecially in the future for dedicated crafters... If there was a game that is based on that and have litterly 250 type of ores and ingots and a wide veriety of tools, weapons, furniture, decorations, and parts to make. Like Some Guild wants a custom-made candeliar, Broque or Gothic style, out of silver and mythril, chain out of adamantite, with black willow waxed candles that emits a purple-ish flame and has a enchant that spawn a purple flame wisp that just wanders the room and make creepy noises.
Originally posted by Deolus
Originally posted by Dominionlord
has crafting become unimportant due to the easy/fast rate of lvling to max in most newer games? why bother taking the time to craft something when you can outlevel it in the same day? Vanguard, which is where i've done the most crafting had slower leveling (when the game was relatively new) and crafted items lasted for a little while longer and were a good investment. Not to mention all the other things you could craft, houses/ships/furniture etc...
I agree with you in some respect because developers are unwilling these days to make games with long levelling times, mainly because it leads to player segregation. Where crafters thrive however is at max level, where the players who can't be bothered to level a crafting skill are dependent on our trade.
The problem I see with crafting is the leveling system itself, sometimes I don't wish that there was a such thing as a leveling system where I unlock goods as I level up, I rather have a leveling system that increases my skills and chances of success on making goods and less resource waste, less chance of failure, less chance of hurting myself, and a chance to make the item better then what it appears. Like I've smelted 15 ingots of bronze and I scored a chance to get 5 silver ore off of the stuff that I smelted thanks to my smelting and mining skills.
Comments
I like combat to be reactive and not make me push a bunch of extra buttons in the same order to kill stuff. AoC as an example was awful from adding extra buttons to push that really didn't do anything at all for the experience.
Crafting is so different than combat that you can't really compare the two though so the question doesn't really matter. I get what you are trying to ask but I want completely different things out of the crafting experience as I do from combat, that is why they are separate parts of the game. They are supposed to be targeted at different types of players.
UO had a pretty good crafting system, so did SWG, but it was because of how you could mix the items more than how you physically did the mixing.
I get what you are saying, however I like both sides, I perfer my dungeons/raid to drop both gear and crafting mats, however you need to do research (in-game) to find out how to unlock it's potential to be able to use it. I don't really want it all to be in the craft side by force, I rather have both side... some people don't like the monster-hunter-isque style of crafting, so best aid in both ways.
It does not have to be about gear or money, it could be something you like making, such as furniture so that you can help decorate your home, someone else home or your guild home, same thing with architecture and literature.
Those games don't got an interesting crafting system, world of warcraft may look like that during the beginning levels, but you make some good gold if you max level it... people are always on the hunt for getting gems and enchants for people who just got new pieces of gear off the LFR/Flex/Normal/Heroic, and you can make some pretty good money. It all depends on the game itself, as some like you just said don't really seem to be so strong and just added it like it's some short of pre-requirements of making an mmorpg game.
Sometimes I think it's best to throw in a researching system to where you need to understand what you are crafting before you craft the item itself, short of a like a mystery puzzle game where you try to find out which fit where and how it suppose to look like, stuff like that from back in the day when you was playing some old adventure game somewhat similar or less like Myst.I think crafting should reflect the game. Deep engaging game should have a comparable crafting system. Simple
games (wow rift etc) don't really need an overly complex system as the fan base is completely different
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Cloudsol/
Just give me some perspective can you give an example of a game with an interesting crafting system ?
FFXIV for starters. SWG was the best.
In FFXIV, I have more crafting abilites that I use during the crafting process than I use during combat on my Paladin heh. You strategize and predict what abilities you should use based on changing conditions in order to get the best chance for a high quality item. You have stats that affect your abilities and a resource pool to manage. Stats can be boosted by food and gear.
I think that you need a bit of a combination of both. You need something that is still accessible to people, something that is simple in the beginning. However, the idea that we are only ever able to obtain "recipes" from vendors is ridiculous!!! I am a Grand Master Blacksmith........ but would you mind selling me that pattern for a helmet? I've never seen one before.
I'd love to see a crafting system that allows people to put together materials in an attempt to be innovative and create something new, something that's never been seen before. I think that GW2 tried to improve on the crafting system, but I'm not sure that it was ever as good as the idea was on paper.
Fact: The best items in the game should be able to be crafted.
Also I'd like to see a certain amount of variability. We see this in WoW a little bit with crafting procs, but I'm talking more randomness, plus the possibility of just creating crazy shit! Like you proc something that's just heads and tails above anything else that's in the game right now. Then, you can go ahead and name that bitch too! For years to come I want the world to talk about Blagdar's Fierce Tuna Spear. Now maybe I won't be able to name all items, but those special ones, the ones that a REAL Blacksmith wouldn't sell because it was just too good, those are the ones I'd want to be able to name. I want that motivation to craft, I want to work with the knowledge that if I continually craft, I'm going to have the chance to proc something more than a Blue that I could get in 15 minutes running through a Dungeon, you know?
That leads me to variability. So, in the above case, the developers don't have a pre-canned name of Blagdar's Fierce Tuna Spear sitting in a database row anywhere. There are guidelines, or limitations will have you, that the spear can be. Boundaries. However, the fact is, that I might put in my Mithril spear head and Titanium shaft and it might spit out the Fierce Tuna Spear or it might just spit out a crappy old Militia Spear and I can smelt it down and start over again. All this means is that there are no reasons for us to stop crafting when we hit the end game and it also means that we're not going to have 100,000 people running around with the exact same set of gear with the exact same stats.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
I think the complexity should be in making the recipes much more complicated than they are now. Give crafters a lot of formulas to memorize that are actually hard to remember at first. Maybe at first you have to open Google to remember even the formula for simple leather armor. But eventually you get good at it and memorize the different formulas. That way you have the feeling of getting better at and mastering an actual skill that takes player effort, which is what simple crafting systems totally lack.
I have to agree, FFXIV crafting is the best crafting system I have used since EQ2 ( I never played SWG so can't comment ) and I have crafted in a LOT of games.
has crafting become unimportant due to the easy/fast rate of lvling to max in most newer games? why bother taking the time to craft something when you can outlevel it in the same day? Vanguard, which is where i've done the most crafting had slower leveling (when the game was relatively new) and crafted items lasted for a little while longer and were a good investment. Not to mention all the other things you could craft, houses/ships/furniture etc...
I agree with you in some respect because developers are unwilling these days to make games with long levelling times, mainly because it leads to player segregation. Where crafters thrive however is at max level, where the players who can't be bothered to level a crafting skill are dependent on our trade.
Do people really have such a boring playstyle?
OP: Let there be both improved/epic crafting aswell games to catter to simple crafting. Seems more then enough room to have games to offer either one.
I can even enjoy crafting in themepark games, but that's because I don't depend on the handholding or what some might call yellow brick road. I would get bored very quickly with such a shallow playstyle and thankfully in MMO's even the themepark you don't have to let the game hold your hand. But perhaps you need to be a experiance gamer to do so...don't know really..
My most favorite crafting still today would be SWG's crafting, nothing has come close, second would be Fallen Earth, Vangaurd would take a 3rd place for me. So yeah I love my crafting deep, but I can entertain myself and find my own challenge even in themepark games.
Why? I don't see why a deep engaging combat centric game should have crafting at all.
Since I'm currently playing GW2 I'll use it as an example. In GW2 my current Engineer is a huntsman and a leatherworker. He makes all of his own gear which is a decent system but when I need to make extra it sells for peanuts because everyone levels fast enough and gets handed gear fast enough they don't need the items. Casually gathering while I play gives me enough mats to level both crafts with minimal investment by me on the trading post. This is a system done completely wrong. Every single character can easily max a craft and the items they make have almost no value until max level.
Whether we go with some sort of mini game for crafting or not it is clear that this style of crafting game is just broken for the crafters. It is tacked on just to say we have crafting and try to keep people happy.
I feel ya man, I would love to see that happen in most mmo's, expecially in the future for dedicated crafters... If there was a game that is based on that and have litterly 250 type of ores and ingots and a wide veriety of tools, weapons, furniture, decorations, and parts to make. Like Some Guild wants a custom-made candeliar, Broque or Gothic style, out of silver and mythril, chain out of adamantite, with black willow waxed candles that emits a purple-ish flame and has a enchant that spawn a purple flame wisp that just wanders the room and make creepy noises.
The problem I see with crafting is the leveling system itself, sometimes I don't wish that there was a such thing as a leveling system where I unlock goods as I level up, I rather have a leveling system that increases my skills and chances of success on making goods and less resource waste, less chance of failure, less chance of hurting myself, and a chance to make the item better then what it appears. Like I've smelted 15 ingots of bronze and I scored a chance to get 5 silver ore off of the stuff that I smelted thanks to my smelting and mining skills.